Where are the new machines????

[b3y0nd3r]

Well here we are with spring right around the corner. So where are the new machines? ML with some gold machine, and Tesoro with another box machine(I guess these can't fail when you build on top of proven platforms) I say BIG DEAL! Where is the real innovation? Where is the machine that makes us go, "WOW"? If they are planning a march release, then I guess they haven't learned from other companies, which released machines in the spring time. I say it time and time again, release in September. And what about the Deus? My father's theory was they were waiting to see what is coming out. Disappointments all around.

 

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[b3y0nd3r]

"OP did not even mention what they were using ? Nor what they were expecting ? nor what they were willing to pay? All kind of irrelevant till we know these things."

I HAVE 2X CTX A RACER 2 AN F75 LTD AND A BLISSTOOL V3

What was I expecting? A rational discussion about possible new technologies.

Money isn't the issue.

"You obviously weren't using metal detectors in the 1970s in order to make such a ridiculous claim."

CORRECT, but you missed the point.

"Even the cheapest, entry level detector today is a vast improvement over the top of the line technology from the 1970s."

Agreed BUT it's still VLF and pulse.

"I don't think you understand the basic principles of technology you seem to think should be combined with metal detectors.

"X-Rays? First, beyond the extreme danger of such things, there MUST be a receiver on the opposite side to receive and create the image, so that makes this impossible to incorporate."

Traditional X-rays need a receiver. Perhaps there could be modifications, there could be subs for a reciever.

"Molecular analysis?!?!! Seriously, wtf? first, you have to HAVE THE OBJECT to perform such anaylsis and second, those already exist and are hella expensive.

Look this up on yout*be:

Optical Emission Spectrometers for Metal Analysis - UAE

It may not be "Molecular analysis" but it's a stepping stone.

"How is this going to improve metal detectors?"

Not to be mean but, use your imagination.

"Sadly, tech research is extremely expensive and most companies do ZERO research. They are happy to continue re-boxing the same old tech with new decals and many people are happy to keep buying it."

Agreed.

"A true discriminating PI will be a huge next step and if it's true that Whites is about to release one, that will be a game changer and Whites will dominate the market very quickly. IF, IF it's true. I'm always hesitant to believe the hype until I see it for sale."

Agreed

"B, the last time you posted this exact same suggestion, I replied "GPR is available right now, you can take it for a test drive." Have you done that? If GPR is what you think you want, why not just buy the durn thing and stop complaining?"

Because it isn't refined enough. It isnt practical in it's current form.

"I love it when folks who have no experience of the realities of the marketplace - much less of the tough process of design and development - accuse companies of "holding back" breakthrough technology so they can sell old tech."

It is well known that companies are all about "the bottom line", otherwise they wouldn't survive. As Jason keenly pointed and, and you had as well in the past, R&D is expensive and directly affects "the bottom line". IF that isn't "conspiracy" enough to "hold back" tech, then IDK what is. I may not own a company, but I have work for some, and while I don't have much experience in the marketplace, I have an idea of it.


"It's real easy for md'rs to dream and throw out $20 technology words. Dreaming up "conspiracies" or " manufacturer laziness" as the reason Star Trek inventions are not on Supermarket shelves. If only it were that easy.

Because then he'll discover that pixel sizes are at the smallest: 1" across. Hence anything he/we look for (coins, rings, etc...), are ...... doh ... all "one pixel".

Then he'll complain that technology should be able to make the pixels 100x smaller. To which someone will tell him that this hits the laws of physics (info that is able to bounce off of objects in solid ground). And even IF you got the pixel size down to 1/100 of what they are now, you would STILL only have "a mess of blotchy pixels". Not some sort of magical TV image.

Nonetheless, the mantra will continue, and you'll keep repeating yourself, to no avail.
But your observations will likewise fall on deaf ears.

In fact, I think you and Carl are all just shills, sent here by "those lazy engineers" who "just don't feel like spending money". It's all a grand conspiracy, because the manufacturers are making money re-packaging current technology each year, so why should they get off their duff and make new tech ?

So you and Carl are sent here, as nothing but shills, as part of the conspiracy. We're on to you ! 'Fess up ! "

Tom such vitriolic and angst filled posts toward me are not necessary. The sarcastic overtone in them are to the point were it is insulting and offensive. I simply tried to get some creative minds and ideas flowing and to discuss possible technologies. I am surprised and rather upset at your comments. I always thought we were on good terms, sure we disagree sometimes, but I always appreciated your input and opinion, until these, what I perceive as hateful and targeted, "rants".

Perhaps maybe it is a bit arrogant and "dreamer" like of me to suggest that there is a general malaise when it comes to "break-through" technology in the metal detecting world. All I wanted to do was to discuss ideas and raise some eyebrows in regards to creating something different.

Having said that, I feel that maybe this isn't the place to share and discuss ideas. I apologize if I offended anyone with my series of posts and I think I learned my lesson here.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

can someone please tell me why GPS is even remotely usable in metal detecting??

It's not. It has nothing to do with the actual finding of metal. It has no bearing on the ID of objects, etc.... So a machine like the CTX which allows you to flag a GPS spot of "where you just found that buffalo nickel", is nothing more than a gimmick of whistles and bells. Isn't doing anything to advance the actual ability of the finding of metal.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....maybe this isn't the place to share and discuss ideas....

ON THE CONTRARY: As you can see from the technical inputs you've received, it IS the "place to discuss ideas". Please do not confuse the fact that your idea got "shot down", as meaning : "it wasn't the right place to discuss".

In other words, you have to be willing to accept that an idea isn't workable/possible. Ie.: the news/answer you get , might not be what you wanted to hear. You can't isolate a single expected/wanted answer, and .... any answer to the contrary means you are not getting input.

As for my tone, please accept my apologies. I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek to get you thinking.

I disagree with your marketing/business/money notion. Ie.: profit motives of companies. None of that has any bearing on technology in the market. As several persons have said now: If there were a better mousetrap, .... trust us: The manufacturers would be BESIDES THEMSELVES with resolve to hurry to get it on the selling block.

So the fact that you don't see anything newer and better, perhaps means we've hit the laws of physics and it simply isn't possible ?

Again sorry for my tone in the earlier replies.

 

[Jason in Enid]

It's not. It has nothing to do with the actual finding of metal. It has no bearing on the ID of objects, etc.... So a machine like the CTX which allows you to flag a GPS spot of "where you just found that buffalo nickel", is nothing more than a gimmick of whistles and bells. Isn't doing anything to advance the actual ability of the finding of metal.

Correct, the addition of GPS into a detector does nothing to help in actually detecting metals. However it does give us additional information to use in deciding WHERE which can be even more important than a detector that tells us WHAT is under the soil.

It's simply a tool to carry in the toolbox and use or not use as needed.

Rechargeable batteries don't help us detect metal, but they let us search longer for less $$$
VDIs don't help us detect metal, but they give us information to decide when to dig and when to walk
waterproofing doesn't help us detect metal, but it opens up additional hunting locations which helps us find more $$$

Anyone can argue "I don't need that feature" but that doesn't mean the feature is useless.

PS- b3yond3r, to claim that nothing has changed because "it's still VLF and PI" is as ridiculous as your earlier statement in the OP. That is on par with saying that a modern variable displacement EFI engine is no different than a Model-T simply because both are "gasoline engines" .

 

[b3y0nd3r]

ON THE CONTRARY: As you can see from the technical inputs you've received, it IS the "place to discuss ideas". Please do not confuse the fact that your idea got "shot down", as meaning : "it wasn't the right place to discuss".

In other words, you have to be willing to accept that an idea isn't workable/possible. Ie.: the news/answer you get , might not be what you wanted to hear. You can't isolate a single expected/wanted answer, and .... any answer to the contrary means you are not getting input.

As for my tone, please accept my apologies. I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek to get you thinking.

I do disagree with your marketing/business/money notion. Ie.: profit motives of companies. None of that has any bearing on technology in the market. As several persons have said now: If there were a better mousetrap, .... trust us: The manufacturers would be BESIDES THEMSELVES with resolve to hurry to get it on the selling block.

So the fact that you don't see anything newer and better, perhaps means we've hit the laws of physics and it simply isn't possible ?

Again sorry for my tone in the earlier replies.

It takes a big person to apologize and I really do appreciate it. It means a lot to me.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... it does give us additional information to use in deciding WHERE which can be even more important than a detector that tells us WHAT is under the soil......

Jason, loved the example you gave in post #79 . I can think of some wide open fields we've hit, where such a study would be very helpful. In fact, years later, those of us who've done the harvesting will combine our recollections, make a map of the site, and put all the "X's" on it, for purpose of our own study. Like to see where yester-year pedestrian traffic was, and to outline the scope of human influence and their fumble-finger losses.

It would be much cooler to do as you've done. So that it's not left up to fickle memory. Nice job !

 

[Tom_in_CA]

It takes a big person to apologize and I really do appreciate it. It means a lot to me.

Well thank you for accepting that. I get a little "carried away" sometimes in talking md'ing . And certain topics can be "bees in people's bonnets". That they can get overly silly about

 

[cudamark]

I enjoy hearing the ideas.....even the far-fetched ones! As the saying goes, "today's science fiction is tomorrow's science fact". Things we use everyday without much thought would have been front page news and left mouths hanging open years ago. Hopefully someone's mind will come up with a way of making something that is thought impossible, reality. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... As the saying goes, "today's science fiction is tomorrow's science fact". Things we use everyday without much thought would have been front page news and left mouths hanging open years ago....

Sure. And also don't forget: Some science fiction remains and will remain just that: Science fiction. There are some things dreamed of, that the laws of nature that don't allow.

We'll see

 

[cudamark]

Sometimes there are ways around the laws of nature. If you look at the specs of a honeybee, it shouldn't be able to fly.....but it does reasonably well at it. A good imagination can come up with ways around problems rather that tring to hit them head on. Not that long ago, it was thought impossible to get around the computer memory limits. That limit became virtually moot when a work-around was discovered.

 

[DannyB.]

It's not. It has nothing to do with the actual finding of metal. It has no bearing on the ID of objects, etc.... So a machine like the CTX which allows you to flag a GPS spot of "where you just found that buffalo nickel", is nothing more than a gimmick of whistles and bells. Isn't doing anything to advance the actual ability of the finding of metal.

On top of that.. GPS, good gps is only accurate to 8-9 feet on a good day. So.. you could only mark it to within that diameter. Definitely sounds like a huge power drain on the batteries.

 

[DannyB.]

I'd like to see it embedded in my system, so I can push a button that says "good find" or "coin" or something when I've dug something nice. Being able to download a track of where you've been in a location and then pattern where the drops are would be amazing. As it stands, I have to do it in my head, because actually mapping on a hard copy would take too blasted long to be worth the time/return.

Basically, if I could go to a park, detect it over a period of a year, and then map all those drops over all 50 of those hunts, I'm sure a heat map would form of the most viable locations to hit in the future.

It's about DATA...

You could get a hiking app for your phone.. it will allow you to photo pin your location and show your track. If documenting the trip is what you want. Only problem is if your pattern is to tight; you will end up with a pretty messy track line.

 

[DannyB.]

It depends on the user! If you are a yard and curbstrip hunter, then no, GPS is probably not a big help. However, FOR ME, I hunt wide open fields. There are no reference points for where I hunted already and what I haven't. The GPS in my CTX resulted in an incredible silver strike including an 1895-O Barber dime (look it up if you don't know). How? Because I tracked all my coin finds. In my wandering I found an IH. Not a big deal, this field was full of them, but then I found another and another. Looking at their locations told me I needed to check THAT SPOT more closely. I found a barber dime and more silver. Now I had a clear visual on location AND PATTERN. I couldn't walk back out into that field and find where to pick up the hunt if I didn't have GPS to lead me back.

Just because it's not useful to you, don't assume it's not useful to anyone else.

Don't get me wrong.. I love technology and GPS is critical in my profession.. I just didn't see a particular use for it.. other than marking a general area; due to the accuracy level..

For my style of hunting it would not be of great use.. I tend to cover a area as if I'm mowing the grass.

However.. I can see your point, it is interesting to document the individual finds as well.

Also.. I might add. It appears you had a damn good hunt in that field!

Thank you for the reply.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... . If you look at the specs of a honeybee, it shouldn't be able to fly.....but it does reasonably well at it..... Not that long ago, it was thought impossible to get around the computer memory limits....

Sure. And now we know why honeybees can fly . And now we know how to get more computer memory limits. Hence each of those was not "impossible". And so too did science once think the earth was flat, and heavier than air flight was impossible. Examples can go on and and on.

But all such examples do not .... ergo ..... mean that anything that can be dreamed up, is therefore "possible". There are things that are not possible.

Example: "hey, let's make a square shaped circle" (a logical contradiction) , etc.....

 

[jadocs]

First time I've seen that. Love it.

Just wish it was more widely available in units other than just the CTX3030.

Which is a lot of what I've been talking about. Features that are found on 10-year-old phones, should be standard on all detectors in 2017.

If you are talking about integration with your phone, software version 4.0 allows the XP Deus to synchronize with the "go detect" app which will track and log just like the 3030.

Is a direct link between detector and phone necessary? Probably not, there are several apps that are standalone that will track and log based on your location.

 

[Carl-NC]

"B, the last time you posted this exact same suggestion, I replied "GPR is available right now, you can take it for a test drive." Have you done that? If GPR is what you think you want, why not just buy the durn thing and stop complaining?"

Because it isn't refined enough. It isnt practical in it's current form.

How do you know? Have you taken one out and used it?

It is well known that companies are all about "the bottom line", otherwise they wouldn't survive. As Jason keenly pointed and, and you had as well in the past, R&D is expensive and directly affects "the bottom line". IF that isn't "conspiracy" enough to "hold back" tech, then IDK what is. I may not own a company, but I have work for some, and while I don't have much experience in the marketplace, I have an idea of it.

Any company that wants to survive also understands strategic planning, typically looking out 5 or more years and asking, "where is the market heading?" Currently there are, what, 5 to 8 competitive metal detector companies right now, depending on how you define competitive. Do you think every last one of them will sit on their hands and intentionally not do any R&D, hoping that no one does, either? Is that the conspiracy, that all the detector companies have colluded to prevent new technology from emerging, so they can continue to make the same ol' VLFs?

I think the issue you have is that detector companies aren't working on the magical solutions you are wishing for. Many of which, at the current state of technology, aren't even possible. There are a lot of IEEE papers yet to be written to get technology to that state, and that level of R&D ain't gonna happen at metal detector companies.

Beyond that, you've taken this complaint to a forum where people responded with real and definitive reasons for why things are as they are, and instead of continuing to engage and learn, you run off to another forum and post the same complaint. I assume hoping for a different answer.

 

[Carl-NC]

If you look at the specs of a honeybee, it shouldn't be able to fly.....

What specs say a honeybee shouldn't be able to fly?

 

[DannyB.]

What specs say a honeybee shouldn't be able to fly?

Somehow.. this piped into mind.

 

[b3y0nd3r]

"How do you know? Have you taken one out and used it?"

You don't HAVE to use something to see that it isn't practical nor refined. You can research it. But you know this so I assume this was just a question poised to get a different type of response.

"Any company that wants to survive also understands strategic planning, typically looking out 5 or more years and asking, "where is the market heading?""

They also watch other companies to see what they are doing as well. If they see them re-branding, then, it is possible they will follow suit.

"Do you think every last one of them will sit on their hands and intentionally not do any R&D, hoping that no one does, either?"

"Is that the conspiracy, that all the detector companies have colluded to prevent new technology from emerging, so they can continue to make the same ol' VLFs?"

No to both or were these rhetorical?

"I think the issue you have is that detector companies aren't working on the magical solutions you are wishing for."

Nothing magical about technology.

"Many of which, at the current state of technology, aren't even possible."

Technological gains advance exponentially. Given the current state of advancement and correct motivation, the miniaturization and power consumption barriers can be easily breached.

"There are a lot of IEEE papers yet to be written to get technology to that state, and that level of R&D ain't gonna happen at metal detector companies."

Agreed per my reasons listed previous.

"Beyond that, you've taken this complaint to a forum where people responded with real and definitive reasons for why things are as they are, and instead of continuing to engage and learn,..."

Well, I have responded however not in a timely fashion(my fault as I am maintaining many threads and conversations on multiple forums). I never said I have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me. In fact the whole reason I posted was to get some "fires" started for the discussion of new technologies. just because I proposed some cutting edge/outlandish/impossible(not IMO) avenues, doesn't make the discussion non-relevant nor my expectations rendered, "null".

Having said that, you have a right to disagree with me and I encourage people to, however, NO ONE deserves to be berated and belittled(I AM NOT SINGLING ANYONE OUT ON THIS OR BLAMING ANYONE) because their opinion doesn't jive with the established norm.

"you run off to another forum and post the same complaint. I assume hoping for a different answer""

That's quite an assumption, but an incorrect one. If you can check the date and times, I posted there first, then here. My purpose was to gather as much data using different platforms as THIS platform, is much different than the other.

I will now ask you Carl, do you really believe that technology can't be increased in this field? With advancements in ALL the different types of technologies in all the different fields, that a method of detecting metal in the ground so many inches can't be improved, refined, or exceeded? If my thinking is magical, so be it. I would rather be unrealistic, optimistic, and looking forward, than a realist, pessimist, who is stuck in the past.

 

[cudamark]

What specs say a honeybee shouldn't be able to fly?

The body size/weight vs. wing area ratio.