Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[RG1976]

Because Bair said so, and had no reason to deceive anyone.
Because the 0's match the ones he carved elsewhere.....well sort of.
Except for the ones that don't.

Does it give you reason to pause....knowing that Travis had a hand in the maps creation? (according to Bair)

or do you write it off as him trying to protect them, by defacing them, from a paranoid mind and "would be" thieves?

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[somehiker]

OH Yea, I almost forgot the biggest reason he would have.
That he wanted to throw people off, so they wouldn't be able to figure out the stone maps he carved himself.
Which proves he was crazy, just like his uncle Bob said he was.

 

[sgtfda]

A artist loves a work in progress. Or thinks up additions to a commissioned piece

 

[DiggerGal]

OH Yea, I almost forgot the biggest reason he would have.
That he wanted to throw people off, so they wouldn't be able to figure out the stone maps he carved himself.
Which proves he was crazy, just like his uncle Bob said he was.

SH,

All kidding aside, when you take the side of Travis creating every map, and creating an elaborate story to go along with the maps, and, that he spent time in the sup's following the said maps that he himself created along with other things that he has carved, the term psychosis comes to mind.
Back in that time they didn't have labels for things like this. They would refer to a person with this type of behavior "special" and used electric shock therapy as a go to. Today, I believe that he would or could be a Savant of sorts.....
The whole story is interesting and captivating.

 

[somehiker]

But does he do so because he is afraid someone might steal his work ?
Only one 0 is round at both ends. The other 5 are flattened at either the top or the bottom.....but I seem to be the only one that has noticed this and wondered why they were done that way.
How would this throw people off ?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

??>?>? if Travis carved the stones, why did he have to carve over them ? He could have carved the misleading data origionally?

 

[RG1976]

These were carved by the same tool - same hand - and probably the same attachment on the pantograph / dremel

You can even see the dremel slip on the 2nd zero to the bottom.

The only reason to carve a monetary value into the stones would be to entice investors.

If the stones were left for the peralta or Jesuits to return at a later date - why give an amount the mine / cache is worth? They would already know. They certainly would have been told where to find the maps? For the same reason you wouldn't write Miguel on the witch map.

Was this to make sure the jesuits / peralta's future finders could verify that they found the "correct" treasure map?

It just goes to show how unintelligent this scam was - if they were really left by the Jesuits or peralta's- they would have been written on something other than a 25lb rock - and taken back to the "motherland" and handed off to their buddies to retrieve them.

 

[deducer]

But does he do so because he is afraid someone might steal his work ?
Only one 0 is round at both ends. The other 5 are flattened at either the top or the bottom.....but I seem to be the only one that has noticed this and wondered why they were done that way.
How would this throw people off ?

That is precisely why I have trouble with Bair's narrative that Travis "carved all the zeros," because if that were his intent, he would not have done anything else than make normal zeros. As it is, a close examination of the back of the MH shows this not to be the case.

A more likely scenario is that he was observed to carve one zero, and likely the zero that fills in the space between the 1 and the rest of the ciphers. Perhaps an act of deception, but certainly not the act of someone perpetuating a hoax.

 

[DiggerGal]

??>?>? if Travis carved the stones, why did he have to carve over them ? He could have carved the misleading data origionally?

So his alter ego wouldn't find the treasure that never existed.

 

[RG1976]

That is precisely why I have trouble with Bair's narrative that Travis "carved all the zeros," because if that were his intent, he would not have done anything else than make normal zeros. As it is, a close examination of the back of the MH shows this not to be the case.

A more likely scenario is that he was observed to carve one zero, and likely the zero that fills in the space between the 1 and the rest of the ciphers. Perhaps an act of deception, but certainly not the act of someone perpetuating a hoax.

So you find it easier to believe that Travis' friend - the same friend he invited to come from Oregon to Arizona - to go out into the mtns - lied about his friend - post death - to try and earn points from the private investigator that he was already apprehensive to converse with?

But "they do say" your friends are nothing more than a reflection of yourself. So maybe you're right. Bair was a liar - that's why he was buddies with Travis.

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

Tangible proof? None. This whole Legend is based off of Circumstantial evidence. It's the preponderance of evidence that tips the scales ever so slightly. It's up to each person to evaluate what is put in front of them along with taking into consideration the evaluation of ones character.
My belief is that of the statements taken that are a matter of record (and published on this forum) are more on the side of true when it comes to Travis carving the "0"'s. It is also my belief because of the statements that I have read that the Horse/Witch Stone has nothing to do with anything but at muse by Travis himself.
These are my belief's and they may differ from yours, and that is OK. Who knows what Ryan and Frank will show us next? I could change my mind, but as of now, this is how I stand.

Tina

In the face of circumstantial evidence, what constitutes as "preponderance of evidence" should certainly be enough to push one in a certain direction, and I have already gone in such a direction.

But we must be careful as to what qualifies as "preponderance."

Bair himself had no intent to mislead anyone, but that does not mean what he was told was not in itself, misleading, or at the very least what he was told may have been a situation misunderstood by another person, especially by people who didn't really know what Travis was up to, or was doing, as Travis was not a very revealing or open person.

As far as the belief that Travis carved the "zeros," I neither agree or disagree with you. It may be possible, but for me, it doesn't really qualify as evidence that would be considered "preponderance," in part because the embellishment of the "zeros" on the back of the MH just don't quite support that scenario.

 

[deducer]

So you find it easier to believe that Travis' friend - the same friend he invited to come from Oregon to Arizona - to go out into the mtns - lied about his friend - post death - to try and earn points from the private investigator that he was already apprehensive to converse with?

But "they do say" your friends are nothing more than a reflection of yourself. So maybe you're right. Bair was a liar - that's why he was buddies with Travis.

Not necessarily, because the Bair interview that Mel Browner described presumably occurred in 1965 (the letter is dated 4/1/65).

And even though Travis died in 1961, he had in fact, taken quite ill sometimes in 1956 and had given the "Peralta Stone Maps" to his uncle. He never made another trip to the Superstition after he became ill.

So that is a period of at least nine years (probably more) between the actual events and the recollections. Details become mixed up, recollections are murky, etc. Let's also not forget that Bair may not have observed the actual carving, since he (IIRC) did not say something along the lines of "I saw him do it."

Also, Bair was not with Travis when he first found the stones, and so even if he stumbled upon, or saw Travis carving zeros on the MH, he would not have had the foreknowledge that there already were other "zeros" on the MH, and Travis was probably not forthcoming with details or information.

 

[Hal Croves]

The only Tangible proof is buried 6 feet under. He's dead. Travis Tumlinson.

Actually, that is not the case.
There is another chapter in this story that has yet to be told.

 

[Hal Croves]

Frank,

You are the last person that I would hope would NOT remain silent. WE NEED MORE!!!!

Yes, MORE please! We need to hear more!!

 

[sgtfda]

Why did Travis and Robert search the area they had such a interest in. Information from Peg Legs collection. You need money to conduct the search. Stone maps would suck in investors. Not a total fraud. Travis cooked up the stone idea. You do have a good basis for a search. So you have the stone maps made then add to them with other carvings and stones. In the end Robert sucked in Garman. Garman had cash and put money into similar projects. He already had a interest in the target area. I have a letter where Robert clearly was lining up Garman to foot the bill. Which he did. In the end the Tumlinsons pass on and using the Peg Leg info Garman gets the last laugh. He finds some treasure. It's not all that complicated to figure out. Human nature at its best.

 

[DiggerGal]

Actually, that is not the case.
There is another chapter in this story that has yet to be told.

Well well Mr. Croves....no question or challenge but a statement that rings to something forthcoming. Ok, I'll bite. What is the chapter in this story that has yet to be told? Travis has a partner that is still alive? Dooooooo tell.....

 

[DiggerGal]

Why did Travis and Robert search the area they had such a interest in. Information from Peg Legs collection. You need money to conduct the search. Stone maps would suck in investors. Not a total fraud. Travis cooked up the stone idea. You do have a good basis for a search. So you have the stone maps made then add to them with other carvings and stones. In the end Robert sucked in Garman. Garman had cash and put money into similar projects. He already had a interest in the target area. I have a letter where Robert clearly was lining up Garman to foot the bill. Which he did. In the end the Tumlinsons pass on and using the Peg Leg info Garman gets the last laugh. He finds some treasure. It's not all that complicated to figure out. Human nature at its best.

Frank,

What did Garman find?
I believe that there is some legitimacy to the trail stones but not the Horse/Witch. Given that Travis was a descendent of Peg Leg and was pretty much born a treasure hunter, I get it. He believed in the treasures that were hidden and believed that HE could find what his Father and Grandfather could not.
A bigger question, why did the search for treasure stop with Travis? Or did it? Is there another Tumlinson out there still in the search?

 

[DiggerGal]

Not necessarily, because the Bair interview that Mel Browner described presumably occurred in 1965 (the letter is dated 4/1/65).

And even though Travis died in 1961, he had in fact, taken quite ill sometimes in 1956 and had given the "Peralta Stone Maps" to his uncle. He never made another trip to the Superstition after he became ill.

So that is a period of at least nine years (probably more) between the actual events and the recollections. Details become mixed up, recollections are murky, etc. Let's also not forget that Bair may not have observed the actual carving, since he (IIRC) did not say something along the lines of "I saw him do it."

Also, Bair was not with Travis when he first found the stones, and so even if he stumbled upon, or saw Travis carving zeros on the MH, he would not have had the foreknowledge that there already were other "zeros" on the MH, and Travis was probably not forthcoming with details or information.

Deducer,

Preponderance of the evidence can be something ever so slight (the weight of a feather for example) to tip the scales of justice.
It just matters as to what the evidence for you means, and where does it tip at this stage in the story?
Are you leaning on one side versus the other? Or are you deadlocked in the middle?
Interested to know where you stand at this point is all. Is it the stones? The carvings? The missing Indian Head stone? Curious....

 

[sgtfda]

Tina I'm not going into it more that that. After all I have my own interest in the issue as I suspect there is more to be found. Research is the key and things are lining up.

 

[DiggerGal]

Tina I'm not going into it more that that. After all I have my own interest in the issue as I suspect there is more to be found. Research is the key and things are lining up.

I appreciate your honesty and respect your privacy.
Thank you!