Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[cw0909]

there is more than one manuscript?
------------

Clarence O. Mitchell who was the only other owner of the original Stone Maps, and who himself has a copy of Tumlinson's manuscript, gives 1956 as the first involvement.

Hal Croves,

Is that a trick question ?

Travis Tumlinson in his manuscript gives the 1948 time period as his first involvement with the original Stone Maps.
Clarence O. Mitchell who was the only other owner of the original Stone Maps, and who himself has a copy of Tumlinson's manuscript, gives 1956 as the first involvement.
Many others who were not directly involved gave dates ranging from 1948-1951 as the first involvement.

So it's take your pick.

Now if you are specifically asking about the Stone Maps that are on display in the SMHS Museum, 1965 would be that date.

Matthew

 

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[Old]

Preponderance of evidence……meaning more likely than not……..

(a) A Jesuit party of sojourners hid mines and/or caches in the mountains. They carved stone maps with broken and misspelled Spanish wording detailing the locations. They buried those stone maps for a later initiate to follow to the secret locations. But no such initiate took up the task.

(b) A party of Peralta miners worked mines in the mountains and found themselves under duress from hostile Natives. They hurriedly carved maps in broken and misspelled Spanish wording and buried them for unknown uninformed later discoverers to follow. The original carvers died at the hands of hostile Natives.

(c) A party of Peralta miners carved maps in stone with broken and misspelled Spanish writing leading to locations familiar to them in the mountains and before returning to Mexico buried them at the foot of those mountains to (a) retrieve at a later time; or (b) be retrieved by others they informed of their location.

(d) An American born Texan with an elementary education, a background of carving in stone with an artistic flare, and a family history of Spanish treasure hunting and map collection carved a set of stones with broken and misspelled Spanish wording depicting land marks in an area known for early Spanish/Mexican mineral exploration. Said stones may or may not be a duplication of existing map(s) or a compilation of existing maps.

If you walked into this story fresh today without a prejudice one way or the other, which story has the preponderance of evidence? That's before we even get into the he said, she said part of the discussion.

 

[somehiker]

These were carved by the same tool - same hand - and probably the same attachment on the pantograph / dremel

You can even see the dremel slip on the 2nd zero to the bottom.

The only reason to carve a monetary value into the stones would be to entice investors.

If the stones were left for the peralta or Jesuits to return at a later date - why give an amount the mine / cache is worth? They would already know. They certainly would have been told where to find the maps? For the same reason you wouldn't write Miguel on the witch map.

Was this to make sure the jesuits / peralta's future finders could verify that they found the "correct" treasure map?

It just goes to show how unintelligent this scam was - if they were really left by the Jesuits or peralta's- they would have been written on something other than a 25lb rock - and taken back to the "motherland" and handed off to their buddies to retrieve them.

I prefer a straight on photo....



This one makes it much easier to see that only the top "0" is rounded at both ends, which combined with the "1" when the heart is placed within the "pocket", cypher side up, becomes a "10", a number also carved in the bottom of the pocket. Because of the shape of the other 5, I suspect they are "symbols" (representations) of something other than zeros, to which the "10" is related.

 

[cw0909]

LOL sounds like my G-uncle, saying my uncle mick was crazy, no $$$
and under the bus he lived in was like 75G, in $$ and goods

OH Yea, I almost forgot the biggest reason he would have.
That he wanted to throw people off, so they wouldn't be able to figure out the stone maps he carved himself.
Which proves he was crazy, just like his uncle Bob said he was.

 

[releventchair]

I prefer a straight on photo....

View attachment 1179184

Because of the shape of the other 5, I suspect they are "symbols" (representations) of something other than zeros, to which the "10" is related.

So what symbol of 5 is known?
Aztec mythology had five suns but shapes on the stone do not appear as suns.
Ceremonial mounds or societal hierarchy of sun gods in human forms dwellings that did exist perhaps.
Only the "graves"/ diggings shown earlier are similar from thread.
7 fits the area of the cultures in the maps alleged orientation ,but 5......?
I suppose one could take the final, near fatal plunge and look towards the Jesuits.
Five wounds/roses ect.

 

[DiggerGal]

I prefer a straight on photo....

View attachment 1179184

This one makes it much easier to see that only the top "0" is rounded at both ends, which combined with the "1" when the heart is placed within the "pocket", cypher side up, becomes a "10", a number also carved in the bottom of the pocket. Because of the shape of the other 5, I suspect they are "symbols" (representations) of something other than zeros, to which the "10" is related.

SH,

I don't follow your analogy. You believe that because 1 "0" is round it means what? And lines up with what to make what? Are you trying to make the stones spell out 1,000,000? I'm lost.....

 

[KXMember]

View attachment 1179235

RC

 

[Hal Croves]

Well well Mr. Croves....no question or challenge but a statement that rings to something forthcoming. Ok, I'll bite. What is the chapter in this story that has yet to be told? Travis has a partner that is still alive? Dooooooo tell.....

Well DiggerGirl,
It's the pre-Travis chapter and it's been around for a long time. It's a story like all the others in the collection but, for any serious researcher, it can not be ignored.

 

[cw0909]

ill take D, with a what if.........
A. there is a correlation to the misspelled words
B.the above works with the trails

Preponderance of evidence……meaning more likely than not……..

(a) A Jesuit party of sojourners hid mines and/or caches in the mountains. They carved stone maps with broken and misspelled Spanish wording detailing the locations. They buried those stone maps for a later initiate to follow to the secret locations. But no such initiate took up the task.

(b) A party of Peralta miners worked mines in the mountains and found themselves under duress from hostile Natives. They hurriedly carved maps in broken and misspelled Spanish wording and buried them for unknown uninformed later discoverers to follow. The original carvers died at the hands of hostile Natives.

(c) A party of Peralta miners carved maps in stone with broken and misspelled Spanish writing leading to locations familiar to them in the mountains and before returning to Mexico buried them at the foot of those mountains to (a) retrieve at a later time; or (b) be retrieved by others they informed of their location.

(d) An American born Texan with an elementary education, a background of carving in stone with an artistic flare, and a family history of Spanish treasure hunting and map collection carved a set of stones with broken and misspelled Spanish wording depicting land marks in an area known for early Spanish/Mexican mineral exploration. Said stones may or may not be a duplication of existing map(s) or a compilation of existing maps.

If you walked into this story fresh today without a prejudice one way or the other, which story has the preponderance of evidence? That's before we even get into the he said, she said part of the discussion.

 

[azdave35]

"If you walked into this story fresh today without a prejudice one way or the other, which story has the preponderance of evidence? That's before we even get into the he said, she said part of the discussion"

you left out tom k.'s version of how the maps were put there

 

[RG1976]

Preponderance of evidence……meaning more likely than not……..

(a) A Jesuit party of sojourners hid mines and/or caches in the mountains. They carved stone maps with broken and misspelled Spanish wording detailing the locations. They buried those stone maps for a later initiate to follow to the secret locations. But no such initiate took up the task.

(b) A party of Peralta miners worked mines in the mountains and found themselves under duress from hostile Natives. They hurriedly carved maps in broken and misspelled Spanish wording and buried them for unknown uninformed later discoverers to follow. The original carvers died at the hands of hostile Natives.

(c) A party of Peralta miners carved maps in stone with broken and misspelled Spanish writing leading to locations familiar to them in the mountains and before returning to Mexico buried them at the foot of those mountains to (a) retrieve at a later time; or (b) be retrieved by others they informed of their location.

(d) An American born Texan with an elementary education, a background of carving in stone with an artistic flare, and a family history of Spanish treasure hunting and map collection carved a set of stones with broken and misspelled Spanish wording depicting land marks in an area known for early Spanish/Mexican mineral exploration. Said stones may or may not be a duplication of existing map(s) or a compilation of existing maps.

If you walked into this story fresh today without a prejudice one way or the other, which story has the preponderance of evidence? That's before we even get into the he said, she said part of the discussion.

Lynda - this was great! Loved all the work you put into it.

I'm sure you'd never guess - but my answer is D! All the way

If you want to go back - we can bring up Reavis. Many say the peralta legend and their involvement in the S-Mtns started with him. Of course he later went to jail for being a fraud. Something about those mountains...

 

[DiggerGal]

Well DiggerGirl,
It's the pre-Travis chapter and it's been around for a long time. It's a story like all the others in the collection but, for any serious researcher, it can not be ignored.

What you stated was;
"There is another chapter in this story that has yet to be told."
If it is a "Pre-Travis" chapter it has been told. And here I thought you had something to add....silly me.

 

[somehiker]

SH,

I don't follow your analogy. You believe that because 1 "0" is round it means what? And lines up with what to make what? Are you trying to make the stones spell out 1,000,000? I'm lost.....

For me the fact that only one "0" is rounded at both ends is a red flag waving over Bair's contention that Travis carved the zeros on the back of that heart.
Travis' ability to carve well defined letters and numbers has been proven, and five of the zeros in question are far different from the ones we know he did carve.
That five of the six have more of a "tombstone" shape suggests that these are symbols, rather than numbers. A less critical observer will assume that all six are zeros and may assume that this means there is something there that equates to 1,000,000, as Travis evidently did and everyone else it seems save for me.
(releventchair is one other who does seem to understand where all of this has come from and where it is going.)
Looks like you have been paying attention RC

 

[DiggerGal]

Preponderance of evidence……meaning more likely than not……..

(a) A Jesuit party of sojourners hid mines and/or caches in the mountains. They carved stone maps with broken and misspelled Spanish wording detailing the locations. They buried those stone maps for a later initiate to follow to the secret locations. But no such initiate took up the task.

(b)A party of Peralta miners worked mines in the mountains and found themselves under duress from hostile Natives. They hurriedly carved maps in broken and misspelled Spanish wording and buried them for unknown uninformed later discoverers to follow. The original carvers died at the hands of hostile Natives.

(c)A party of Peralta miners carved maps in stone with broken and misspelled Spanish writing leading to locations familiar to them in the mountains and before returning to Mexico buried them at the foot of those mountains to (a) retrieve at a later time; or (b) be retrieved by others they informed of their location.

(d)An American born Texan with an elementary education, a background of carving in stone with an artistic flare, and a family history of Spanish treasure hunting and map collection carved a set of stones with broken and misspelled Spanish wording depicting land marks in an area known for early Spanish/Mexican mineral exploration. Said stones may or may not be a duplication of existing map(s) or a compilation of existing maps.

If you walked into this story fresh today without a prejudice one way or the other, which story has the preponderance of evidence? That's before we even get into the he said, she said part of the discussion.

Old,

Even when I read "D" I laugh! This is just getting goofy! Lol. I'll pick D with some "artistic flare". Final Answer.
Great post!

 

[Hal Croves]

What you stated was;
"There is another chapter in this story that has yet to be told."
If it is a "Pre-Travis" chapter it has been told. And here I thought you had something to add....silly me.

Really? Well, then I will let you tell it.
Or can you?

 

[DiggerGal]

For me the fact that only one "0" is rounded at both ends is a red flag waving over Bair's contention that Travis carved the zeros on the back of that heart.
Travis' ability to carve well defined letters and numbers has been proven, and five of the zeros in question are far different from the ones we know he did carve.
That five of the six have more of a "tombstone" shape suggests that these are symbols, rather than numbers. A less critical observer will assume that all six are zeros and may assume that this means there is something there that equates to 1,000,000, as Travis evidently did and everyone else it seems save for me.
(releventchair is one other who does seem to understand where all of this has come from and where it is going.)
Looks like you have been paying attention RC

SH,

I learn so much from these threads. Thank you for sharing. If I was looking at it to mean something other than a bunch of "0"'s my first thought would be (in a manner of something similar to an ink blot test) could he be drawing stone steps? But if that were the case, as he is a much better Artist, I would think that it would be more defined. I just don't know......

 

[Hal Croves]

Tina I'm not going into it more that that. After all I have my own interest in the issue as I suspect there is more to be found. Research is the key and things are lining up.

Lining up? That is good news.

 

[DiggerGal]

Really? Well, then I will let you tell it.
Or can you?

Mr. Croves,

This was your post originally remember? It is up to you sir to state the Chapter that had yet to be told. That's what you stated right? And if it is such a chapter that had "yet to be told" I thought you would finally add something to the forum for once rather than asking everyone to prove their research to you. But, I see I was right. Once again you add nothing but to derail the thread to center the attention on yourself. No need to reply, as you have nothing to add.

 

[Hal Croves]

Mr. Croves,

This was your post originally remember? It is up to you sir to state the Chapter that had yet to be told. That's what you stated right? And if it is such a chapter that had "yet to be told" I thought you would finally add something to the forum for once rather than asking everyone to prove their research to you. But, I see I was right. Once again you add nothing but to derail the thread to center the attention on yourself. No need to reply, as you have nothing to add.

Sure was. Yes, the chapter before Travis became involved. But you wrote that it was already known? I have yet to see it described on TNet so, why not tell it, as you heard it? But, you should quote your source.

Do you think that there is a difference between research, original first hand research, and borrowing heavily from the researched works of others? I am still wrestling with that question as I read thru this thread.

Nothing to add?
Perhaps.

 

[somehiker]

SH,

I learn so much from these threads. Thank you for sharing. If I was looking at it to mean something other than a bunch of "0"'s my first thought would be (in a manner of something similar to an ink blot test) could he be drawing stone steps? But if that were the case, as he is a much better Artist, I would think that it would be more defined. I just don't know......

I don't think steps would fit the bill. Maybe entrances to mines, and there are and have been some folks who believe the 5,7,and 18 signify the number of mines the Peraltas had in the Supes. Doorways and tunnels often have that shape as well. Some bullion, cast in molds made by driving a rounded bar or wooden stake into a bed of wet sand, also exhibit a similar profile. Gold bars with a 5 dot marking have been found out in the Sups. that there were lines connecting those 5 dots, forming a crown shape....so maybe something like that ?
With only 5 dots though, an "M" or a "W" closed at the top or bottom, seems a better description.