Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[azdave35]

Hi Ryan:

Just a short drive down 60, towards Globe, and you will see plenty of them in the "Pinals".

some of you guys are really grasping at straws here...that stone wasn't glued 150 years ago ...it was glued more than likely not long after it was carved...in the late 1940's

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Hi Ryan:

Just a short drive down 60, towards Globe, and you will see plenty of them in the "Pinals".
"pine" in this case is just a generic name for any evergreen tree or shrub from which the sap can be boiled down or used as drawn for glue.
There are singles and small groves of cedars etc. scattered throughout the Sups. as well.

Regards:Wayne

somehiker,

No need to go all the way to the Pinals, the Superstitions are loaded with Juniper, cedar and pinion all the class of pine evergreen that produces a sap that would be a great glue all by itself. Tortilla ranch and the trail to Peters canyon and you go through a forest of Juniper Cedar and Pinion. Juniper and Cedar can be seen along the Peralta road to Don's camp and Quarter Circle U ranch. These trees are dotted all over the Superstitions. No shortage of these trees. make a gash in a Cedar or alligator Juniper in October and it will ooze out gallons of sap so sticky you'd think it was super glue.

Matthew

 

[somehiker]

some of you guys are really grasping at straws here...that stone wasn't glued 150 years ago ...it was glued more than likely not long after it was carved...in the late 1940's

I don't think anyone has suggested it was glued 150 yrs ago David.
And I believe it was glued shortly after Tumlinson returned to Hood River with the stones in 1949. He may have taken the bumper shot in the driveway of his home, for all we know. Both types of glue were available long before then ,then, and even now. If testing were to show the glue to be older than 1949 though, or much older than that, then we could talk about this "150 years" business.

 

[Hal Croves]

Visitations are at a all time high at the museum due to Legend of the Superstition Mountains. We were well received. Additional publicity from the video only improves the line of visitors. I'm very happy for them. The last thing they are looking for is a apology.

Gentleman don't ask for apologies.
It's a lost opportunity and perhaps, now something to forget.

Frank,
Previously you stated that in your opinion, there is no Masonic connection or interest in the stone maps. Is this still your opinion now that you have completed video6?

Thanks Frank!

 

[somehiker]

somehiker,

No need to go all the way to the Pinals, the Superstitions are loaded with Juniper, cedar and pinion all the class of pine evergreen that produces a sap that would be a great glue all by itself. Tortilla ranch and the trail to Peters canyon and you go through a forest of Juniper Cedar and Pinion. Juniper and Cedar can be seen along the Peralta road to Don's camp and Quarter Circle U ranch. These trees are dotted all over the Superstitions. No shortage of these trees. make a gash in a Cedar or alligator Juniper in October and it will ooze out gallons of sap so sticky you'd think it was super glue.

Matthew

Just trying to keep it simple.
Of course you don't have to drive all the way to Globe from FJ.....just towards it some, as I said.
And, as I also said in what you quoted, there are "cedars etc." throughout the Sups as well.

Unless the glue is dated, it really doesn't matter when we think it was done.
What we have, based on what we see in the BP, is only that is had been broken some time before, which means different things to different people.
For me, all it really tells me at this point, is that when I make that same size pattern of the red heart stone, I'm going to make sure it's made the same way.... in two pieces, when I take it along with me.

 

[Las Vegas Bob]

The glue was probably made from animals. Like from these animal glue granules

 

[coazon de oro]

Pine sap glue?

Pine tress in the desert?

This is why it's important to come to Arizona and visit.

Howdy Ryan,

There seems to be many things you don't understand, after you pat yourself on the back claiming to be very observant. The stones were found in Pinal county, but I threw in mesquite sap which would be more common so that everyone would understand that it could be any type of sap.

You did agree the glued fractures were noticeable because Frank mentioned them. Now you claim the heart stone had no carvings on the bumper picture. If you look at your own video, which had some nice closeups of the heart stone, you will notice things. The stone was already carved as you can see the etchings along the mended break are stained black where the excess was wiped. One etching is completely covered over along the break. The same is found on the other side, you can see some yellow where it was wiped off, and some inside the etchings.

This proves how wrong you are on your other observations that you call evidence. Light will hide things, and show others when shined from different directions. With light shining from above, vertical lines such as those found in the dagger, will have no shadow. Light will also make bigger shadows as you increase the angle, this is why some groves appear larger when the light comes from a different direction.

You can't compare the picture of a picture that would have extra glare, which was taken from an angle from a further distance, to a close-up photo taken with different light at a different angle. There have to be differences, this is not evidence.

Homar

 

[UncleMatt]

So if I fabricate up a couple of treasure maps, then break them and glue them back together, time will be spent arguing over what kind of glue I used?

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Ryan,

There seems to be many things you don't understand, after you pat yourself on the back claiming to be very observant. The stones were found in Pinal county, but I threw in mesquite sap which would be more common so that everyone would understand that it could be any type of sap.

You did agree the glued fractures were noticeable because Frank mentioned them. Now you claim the heart stone had no carvings on the bumper picture. If you look at your own video, which had some nice closeups of the heart stone, you will notice things. The stone was already carved as you can see the etchings along the mended break are stained black where the excess was wiped. One etching is completely covered over along the break. The same is found on the other side, you can see some yellow where it was wiped off, and some inside the etchings.

This proves how wrong you are on your other observations that you call evidence. Light will hide things, and show others when shined from different directions. With light shining from above, vertical lines such as those found in the dagger, will have no shadow. Light will also make bigger shadows as you increase the angle, this is why some groves appear larger when the light comes from a different direction.

You can't compare the picture of a picture that would have extra glare, which was taken from an angle from a further distance, to a close-up photo taken with different light at a different angle. There have to be differences, this is not evidence.

Homar

like ryan said..come to arizona and maybe we will listen to you....as far as i can tell you have never been here..but somehow have set yourself up as an expert

 

[azdave35]

So if I fabricate up a couple of treasure maps, then break them and glue them back together, time will be spent arguing over what kind of glue I used?

matt...i believe its called OCD

 

[RG1976]

Howdy Ryan,

There seems to be many things you don't understand, after you pat yourself on the back claiming to be very observant. The stones were found in Pinal county, but I threw in mesquite sap which would be more common so that everyone would understand that it could be any type of sap.

You did agree the glued fractures were noticeable because Frank mentioned them. Now you claim the heart stone had no carvings on the bumper picture. If you look at your own video, which had some nice closeups of the heart stone, you will notice things. The stone was already carved as you can see the etchings along the mended break are stained black where the excess was wiped. One etching is completely covered over along the break. The same is found on the other side, you can see some yellow where it was wiped off, and some inside the etchings.

This proves how wrong you are on your other observations that you call evidence. Light will hide things, and show others when shined from different directions. With light shining from above, vertical lines such as those found in the dagger, will have no shadow. Light will also make bigger shadows as you increase the angle, this is why some groves appear larger when the light comes from a different direction.

You can't compare the picture of a picture that would have extra glare, which was taken from an angle from a further distance, to a close-up photo taken with different light at a different angle. There have to be differences, this is not evidence.

Homar

Homar - you and I will never agree - and that's okay.

I can respect that you want to believe in something - respect that I see things very differently than you. (And it seems the majority of people in the voting poll)

Come out here and prove us all wrong. Plus - it'd be fun for you to actually see the superstitions in person.

 

[coazon de oro]

like ryan said..come to arizona and maybe we will listen to you....as far as i can tell you have never been here..but somehow have set yourself up as an expert

Howdy azdave35,

I have never claimed to be smarter than anybody else, claimed to be, or consider myself an expert. I don't post with the hope of you listening, so why does it bother you if I make sense every now, and then?

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Howdy azdave35,

I have never claimed to be smarter than anybody else, claimed to be, or consider myself an expert. I don't post with the hope of you listening, so why does it bother you if I make sense every now, and then?

Homar

lol...do you make sense every now and then?..i wasn't aware of that....

 

[releventchair]

I didn't vote on the Poll.
Sure would not want to revisit Az. just to be heard though. Better reasons than that and they ain't in the Supes..
If that really is a prerequisite to be heard, let me know.

 

[RG1976]

I didn't vote on the Poll.
Sure would not want to revisit Az. just to be heard though. Better reasons than that and they ain't in the Supes..
If that really is a prerequisite to be heard, let me know.

Think of a really great cake - and you want to bake one. Perhaps you want to bake one for your mom.

You have 2 "chefs" you can choose from.

1) has never set foot in a kitchen - but has spent a lot of time researching recipes online.

2) someone that makes cakes a few times a week - also does research online for good recipes

It's not that person 1 is wrong - he / she just doesn't have "real world" experience.

being heard is not the same as acting like you're Gordon Ramsey and you've never stepped foot in a kitchen.

 

[releventchair]

I'd just buy a cake.
Moms long gone.
Gordon would be interesting treasure hunting if in character, but could make something look like a stone that's been carved.
He'd need his own tent though.
I get your point though RG. And I understand getting to where saying prove your point is not hard to arrive at.
I've done worse when agitated and hate mending fence after.
I just don't keep track of others opinions enough to bug me I guess.
If Coazon and I have not agreed on anything (outside of stones too) neither one has minded enough to throw down any gauntlets, not that is recalled anyway.
Stuff we agree on, like most folks we don't dwell on either.
The stones should be fleshed out. Yes locals and those that haunt the stones potential sites are most likely to find conclusions.
Like pretty women,(no offence gals) and Billy Grahm saying "you can look once,the second time it's lust",it's easy to get passionately opinionated about such a long running subject.
My following the opinions of others has to be through a filter/sifter; looking for the same thing(s) you are.
Does not yield much ,but once in a while a piece of information verified makes it worth while, regardless if the person passing it along agrees with my opinion.
Staying undecided, awaiting further results, means no big passion about something blurred to me worth isolating anyone from elsewhere over.
My being 100% sure someone is wrong, turned out wrong once. Probably since too but once was way plenty enough I try not to announce any great doubts even when that 100% right is in my head again.

 

[Azquester]

Early Colonial Resins

I found some Spanish Colonial artifacts that have been repaired with Resins between 1550-1800. Just to give a clue as to the possibility of a repair made too the heart stone before 1949.


The first is a Wedding Kero 1700-1800. These are wooden artifacts using the same types of resin with dowels drilled in the wood for added strength.

View attachment 1178235






View attachment 1178236

Wooden Inca Colonial kero from the early Colonial period. Thick walled construction, relief carved and painted decoration with figural, geometric and foliage motifs. Overall design appears to be related to planting or harvest. Around the top are two figures wearing Colonial clothing, each holding a spade or shovel along with plant and geometric designs. The bottom shows additional plant and foliage designs. Areas of paint with red, white and gold pigments still remaining, mostly in the crevices. Condition is generally good. There are several cracks with two period (drilled and tied) repairs. Another resin filled repair also dates to Colonial times. Extensive wear and deposits. Great aged patina. An exceptional artifact from the very early Colonial period. Ex Paul Clifford collection. Purchased directly from him in the late 1990's.

 

[Hal Croves]

lol...do you make sense every now and then?..i wasn't aware of that....

azdave,
Suddenly, I find myself interested in every word you post.

Hal

 

[Azquester]

Spanish Colonial Carved Stone Slabs

Carved Stone Slab in Mexico.

Notice the Block Letters not very straight or correct.

Below that is a stone carved map of river systems in Wisconsin notice how similar the carved lines are too the Stone Maps lettering.

View attachment 1178247

Stone Carved Map from Wisconsin 2000 years old:

View attachment 1178248

 

[releventchair]

Fire tinder kits worth having some resin stashed in for damp weather. Hey monsoons happen.
Westernly parflech replaced eastern birch bark that had seams sealed in some applications and repairs. A leak in a bladder bag or some water gourd ect. could be patched with pitch.
Large stone glued... I don't know. Most stone was also bound that was pitched and smaller in size than those in the bumper picture by far.
Not sure why they were rejoined really.
I've a story about animal glue in a shop, but it's even farther off topic than my usual ones.