Cactusjumper wrote
First, I have never created or destroyed an artifact. If someone wants to read that into what I wrote, they need to go back to school.
There is a lot of that going on in these forums, reading
much more into a sentence or paragraph than was written, or often intended. Possibly due to the habit of some individuals whom are trying to include a lot of info by implication/between the lines sort of stuff, which is best in the movies, not so much for friends talking with friends.
Cactusjumper also wrote
Tom Kollenborn has never believed in the LDM, as far as I know. Like me, he knows the legends backwards and forwards. Only difference is, he also knows it sideways......left and right.
That is difficult to reconcile with the various television interviews with Tom K, his articles, statements, or affidavits over the years. Was Tom not a partner with Bob Corbin, and went along with him looking for the Dutchman's mine on more than one occasion, or do I have that wrong too?
Cactusjumper also wrote
I have always voiced the opinion that Waltz's gold ore came from many places where he prospected through the years.
A valid enough opinion, however on what is it based? Most of the photos ever published or seen have been of the matchbox, or earrings, as far as I know no one has a photo of the actual ore in the box from under Waltz's bed, and again the only source I know of that claims it was fifty different kinds came from an interview with Pete Petrasch in which Pete makes other highly questionable claims such as he knew Waltz personally. More on this aspect in a moment.
Cactusjumper also wrote
There are a number of people in the Dutch Hunting Community who have low opinions of my character. Thankfully, there are more who have just the opposite opinion. I am ok with that.
Some people cannot be friends if they cannot agree on every thing. Others may have been deeply offended by your tendency to be blunt and honest, which as you know does not offend everyone. Over time I would bet that even some of those offended folks will learn that you had no malice toward them in the first place.
Springfield wrote
I wouldn't call them 'attacks', I would call them pointed questions trying to find the truth. I see two 'problems' with the matchbox ore, vis-a-vis the contention it came from a 'Lost Dutchmen Mine' in the Superstition Mountains. First, there is no proof the matchbox ore came from the candle box of ore allegedly found under Waltz's bed. The matchbox ore is nice picture rock, but these ore samples are easy enough to get a hold of from a number of sources. The 'LDM' claim enhances the reputation of the ore's owner, I'm sure, but doesn't solve the LDM mystery - unless, of course a mine is found in the Superstitions which produces matching ore.
We have been over this before. There is no absolutely undeniable chain of evidence proving beyond all doubt that the matchbox came from Waltz's mine. What we DO have are the known actions of people directly involved. Dick Holmes, in particular. The Matchbox IS traceable to Holmes. Holmes claimed that it was made from ore in that candlebox; he also said that he was given it by Waltz, and then proceeded to spend the rest of his life, and then his son after him, and Clay Wurst to this very day, searching for the mine it came from. This is not courtroom type evidence, but it certainly supports the contention that Holmes was telling the truth about it
based on his own actions. If he were lying about it entirely, he would not have gone in search of the mine. Holmes does not seem to have been anything other than a practical man.
Springfield also wrote
Secondly, the underlying bigger problem. If you accept that the matchbox ore came from under Waltz's bed, then you have to accept on faith that that ore originated from a phantom mine in the Superstitions. While it's true that no matching ore has been found from a source not in the Superstions, this argument does not support the contention that the matchbox ore did originate in the Superstitions.
As has been gone over previously many times, this "phantom mine" as you put it, certainly would fit with observed behavior of Waltz, Holmes, Julia and Reiney, the memories of old timers from Florence, the version from Tom Weedin as told him by Dr Walker etc. If you dismiss the mine, you must dismiss all of these people's statements and their actions as well. You are certainly free and welcome to dismiss the whole, stay home and watch that TV, but of course no one has ever found a lost mine by staying home.
<Oroblanco wrote previously>
... I am also informed that both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn no longer believe there ever was a Lost Dutchman gold mine, after spending decades of their lives in the search for it, and while I have the utmost respect for both of these men, cannot help but think that the years of argument and pressure from the skeptics and scorners has had an effect. It would be astonishing if the AZ School of Mines had no collection of gold ores; in fact the USGS has an impressive collection too, as do many of the Schools of Mines around the country...
And Springfield replied,
It seems more likely these gentlemen may have arrived at their conclusions based on a whole lot of rational thought and open-mindedness, rather than pressure from others.
Do you contend that the pressure, argument, even ridicule of a circle of friends and/or relatives, would have
no effect on someone, especially after they had made a number of unsuccessful searches? I can tell you that it certainly does; how many treasure hunters have had to deal with an angry wife (or husband) for having spent money and time on a fruitless search? Of course it could be exactly as you say, but I can't help but suspect that this pressure, combined with what seem to be failed attempts had a strong effect. Toss in the deceitful falsehoods that they were fed by someone they trusted too.
Springfield also wrote
I've seen hundreds of samples of gold ores in private collections and at the Schools of Mines in Golden, CO and Socorro, NM. They are generally labeled with the names and locations of the mines that produced them. These samples are nearly always spectacular in some way. However, unless I'm mistaken, you will not find a cataloged collection of gold ores anywhere that contains samples from all veins, from all drifts and stopes, from all mines in any state. If such a database existed, then your argument would be on stronger legs.
Have you been to the Arizona state university school of mines? I have not. In fact I have not even tried. Whether they have a collection or none whatsoever, finding a mine with ore that matches the Waltz matchbox specimen, would settle the issue
for me. You are certainly free and welcome to dismiss this approach, and of course stay home with the selections available on cable or satellite for entertainment. But you then also have no argument against anyone who claim they have found the Lost Dutchman mine, which might fit one or more of the clues, and has some kind of old hole in the ground, and
should by rights start passing out the compliments to the claimaints.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp wrote
I 'still' say the most likely explanation of the Stones was a complex play by Reavis to support his claim for most of Arizona which prob failed because of an inept clerk or assistant. SO THERE, ya bunch of dummies . Hehehehe
Sheesh - and you call
ME bull headed?
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek; or that you find suitable entertainment on the telly. There are quite a few gold-mining, prospecting type programs available now so you can watch them dig up the good stuff without leaving the Lazy Boy!
Oroblanco
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