The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Cubfan64]

This is very close to a Confession! Anything you would like to point us too that you or your friends faked? Will take this into consideration from here on out.

I've never heard Joe mention that he or anyone in his group created or destroyed things, but will leave it up to him to answer that for sure.

On the other hand, there are folks who supposedly witnessed Tex Barkley destroying more than a few things that he thought might draw prospectors attentions. I've heard stories that his son Bill Barkely did the same. Tex was a rancher first and foremost - he did what he could to keep people out of where his cows were going to be.

As far as creating things goes, a very well known man in the LDM community mentioned at a Rendezvous a few years ago that he once carved a cross into a rock. He admitted he didn't really even know at the time why he did it.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cubber mi busum buddy: As for creating thingies, once I was invited to go on a treasure hunt to where supposedly a huge treasure of old coins had been dumped in a small swamp in that time.

As it turned out it was basically a dried up swamp of adobe mud.

For those that haven't experienced Adobe, it is similar to modeling clay, only more so.

I quickly proved that there was no metal within 2 meters of the surface with my detector, they didn't believe me but kept on digging, and searching. so, being bored, i pulled one of the uncirculated 8 Reales that I carried for luck out of my pocket and proceeded to make impressions of it in the damp Adobe. It made beautiful impressions.

Eventually they became discouraged and we left.However a few months later I met one of the men who bitterly accused me of losing a huge treasure for them.

Naturally I was a bit confused, so he pulled out his wallet and took a news paper clipping out of it I read how it said that a huge treasure had been recovered in the night, it even had a photograph of the impression of the loosely stored coins,

Yep, you guessed it, the impressions were of of my 8 Reales in the Adobe.

I finally convinced him on the story by producing my coin and comparing the date of mintage. so you see one can inadvertently produce false signs.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. They still look for the missing coins every Semana Santa.

p.p.s that grand treasure still hasn't been located. It was from one of the revolutions.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cubfan wrote

What if Waltz had gold saved up from different locations over the years..<snip>

This seems to originate with an interview done with Pete Petrasch, in which he claimed that his brother Reiney told him that there were fifty different kinds of gold ore in the candle box, including gold in chalcedony which would be quite unusual. Pete also claimed that he knew the Dutchman personally, and this is not true as far as I can tell anyway, Pete never met Waltz.

To all - this is yet another never-ending debate. The skeptics and scorners fish for any way to explain it all away, it was all a tall tale, never was a mine etc. Good for you - stay home, keep comfy and watch TV; I will be more than happy to dispose of all your treasure hunting equipment, maps etc.

I see a LOT of attacks on the whole idea of the ore, the matchbox etc. I stick by it, as the only scientific way in which anyone is ever going to make any kind of conclusive case that the mine is found, or we are left with a hundred different guys all claiming they found the mine and have NO gold for one reason or another. Now you don't want to accept that there ever was a mine so no gold ore to compare - fine - just start passing out the congrats to all those people that have claimed they found the mythical mine which never existed in the first place in your book.

Dr Glover states there never was any collection of gold ores; in Helen Corbin's book, The Curst of the Dutchman's Gold, pp 231-232, we have a facsimile of an affidavit signed by Bob Corbin, in which he states:

I was told by the individual who owns the assay report, jewelry and ore that this ore had been sent to the University of Arizona, School of Mines which has samples of gold ore from every known Arizona gold mine to see if the ore could be matched up. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona, School of Mines had informed him that this ore came from an unknown source."

On the next pages, we find another facsimile of an affidavit, from Tom Kollenborn; in which he states:

I was told by the individual who owns the assay report, jewelry and ore that this ore had been sent to the University of Arizona, School of Mines that has samples of gold ore from every known Arizona gold mine to see if the ore could be matched up with any known Arizona gold mine. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona, School of Mines had informed him that this ore that he has sent to them came from an unknown source.

I am also informed that both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn no longer believe there ever was a Lost Dutchman gold mine, after spending decades of their lives in the search for it, and while I have the utmost respect for both of these men, cannot help but think that the years of argument and pressure from the skeptics and scorners has had an effect. It would be astonishing if the AZ School of Mines had no collection of gold ores; in fact the USGS has an impressive collection too, as do many of the Schools of Mines around the country.

You are all free and welcome to your own conclusions and opinions; for myself, I am 100% convinced there was a rich gold mine that Jacob Waltz and his partner Weiser worked, in a small way. Stick to the earliest possible sources, which have had less time for the taint of falsehoods and error to creep into the mix, and we have people going out looking for Waltz's mine immediately after his death. Almost a mini-rush of prospectors, whom succeeded in finding the rich gold mines of Goldfield, which very likely would never have been found had it not been for Jacob Waltz. For that matter one might wonder if Apache Jct would be anything more than a dusty store, gas station and post office that it was for many years if not for Waltz. Respected pioneers are quoted as being witnesses to Waltz selling rich gold ore, that he had brought out of the Superstitions, not the Bradshaws, including Charlie Myers, Colonel Poston, George McClarty; Plus - Tom Weedin cited Dr John Walker as having been the source of the story of Weiser coming out of the mountains mortally wounded. When these stories were published there were plenty of people alive whom could have denied them, yet no such denials appeared, not until our day of course when everything is a fairy story made up to sell treasure books and make millions on the royalties. (Still waiting to hear the name of an author of a treasure book that made those millions$$$ in royalties on said book? )

So please by all means, all of you whom do NOT believe there ever was a Lost Dutchman mine - DO stay home, and do not forget my generous offer to relieve you of all your equipment, maps books aerial photos etc. I am sure TV will offer more entertainment for you, and you will be that much less competition for those "deluded" enough to believe in such things and whom do go out on the search. No one has ever found a lost treasure or a lost mine by staying home, but don't let that stop you from relaxing on your couch with the remote amigo! Oh and don't forget to start passing out those congrats to each and every person or group that claims they have found the LDM and have zero gold to show too.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Which cuppa is mine Oro de La Tayopa?

Jose

 

[cactusjumper]

First, I have never created or destroyed an artifact. If someone wants to read that into what I wrote, they need to go back to school.

Tom Kollenborn has never believed in the LDM, as far as I know. Like me, he knows the legends backwards and forwards. Only difference is, he also knows it sideways......left and right.

I have always voiced the opinion that Waltz's gold ore came from many places where he prospected through the years.

There are a number of people in the Dutch Hunting Community who have low opinions of my character. Thankfully, there are more who have just the opposite opinion. I am ok with that.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Army of 1]

Joe i think you are a straight up guy , you tell the facts as they are with zero embellishment , mention LDM and it brings out all kinds of humanity , every one has an opinion on the LDM some reasonable some " out there " . One day who knows this legend and mystery may be laid to rest when the true facts lead to an amazing discovery .. cheers Mick

 

[Springfield]

... I see a LOT of attacks on the whole idea of the ore, the matchbox etc. I stick by it, as the only scientific way in which anyone is ever going to make any kind of conclusive case that the mine is found, ...

I wouldn't call them 'attacks', I would call them pointed questions trying to find the truth. I see two 'problems' with the matchbox ore, vis-a-vis the contention it came from a 'Lost Dutchmen Mine' in the Superstition Mountains. First, there is no proof the matchbox ore came from the candle box of ore allegedly found under Waltz's bed. The matchbox ore is nice picture rock, but these ore samples are easy enough to get a hold of from a number of sources. The 'LDM' claim enhances the reputation of the ore's owner, I'm sure, but doesn't solve the LDM mystery - unless, of course a mine is found in the Superstitions which produces matching ore.

Secondly, the underlying bigger problem. If you accept that the matchbox ore came from under Waltz's bed, then you have to accept on faith that that ore originated from a phantom mine in the Superstitions. While it's true that no matching ore has been found from a source not in the Superstions, this argument does not support the contention that the matchbox ore did originate in the Superstitions.

... I am also informed that both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn no longer believe there ever was a Lost Dutchman gold mine, after spending decades of their lives in the search for it, and while I have the utmost respect for both of these men, cannot help but think that the years of argument and pressure from the skeptics and scorners has had an effect. It would be astonishing if the AZ School of Mines had no collection of gold ores; in fact the USGS has an impressive collection too, as do many of the Schools of Mines around the country...

It seems more likely these gentlemen may have arrived at their conclusions based on a whole lot of rational thought and open-mindedness, rather than pressure from others.

I've seen hundreds of samples of gold ores in private collections and at the Schools of Mines in Golden, CO and Socorro, NM. They are generally labeled with the names and locations of the mines that produced them. These samples are nearly always spectacular in some way. However, unless I'm mistaken, you will not find a cataloged collection of gold ores anywhere that contains samples from all veins, from all drifts and stopes, from all mines in any state. If such a database existed, then your argument would be on stronger legs.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springer, coffee? A no of the larger mines do have their personal collection of specimens from each level and workings , including assay reports for records and share holders possible perusal. This tends to reduce quarrels on staff efficiency as well as to document the structure of the mine deposit itself.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Springer, coffee? A no of the larger mines do have their personal collection of specimens from each level and workings , including assay reports for records and share holders possible perusal. This tends to reduce quarrels on staff efficiency as well as to document the structure of the mine deposit itself.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Understood, DJ. In modern times, core samples and assay data are warehoused. Financial reporting regulations require it. But ... samples from a hundred, or a hundred and fifty years ago? ... good luck. The few exceptions are just that ... a very few.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Very true Springfield, however that wasn't the principal point, so drink yer coffee, it is getting cold. The Idaho Maryland mine in Grass Valley has a complete record of their workings, including the problem with the faulted ore shoot, I agree, this can normally be considered as nit picking.

I 'still' say the most likely explanation of the Stones was a complex play by Reavis to support his claim for most of Arizona which prob failed because of an inept clerk or assistant. SO THERE, ya bunch of dummies . Hehehehe

The last one is mine so keep yer cottin pickin hooks off of it...

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[sgtfda]

I'm sure samples were not sent off from all the small shafts that dot Az. If any. Even now nice samples are not given away.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

First, I have never created or destroyed an artifact. If someone wants to read that into what I wrote, they need to go back to school.

There is a lot of that going on in these forums, reading much more into a sentence or paragraph than was written, or often intended. Possibly due to the habit of some individuals whom are trying to include a lot of info by implication/between the lines sort of stuff, which is best in the movies, not so much for friends talking with friends.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Tom Kollenborn has never believed in the LDM, as far as I know. Like me, he knows the legends backwards and forwards. Only difference is, he also knows it sideways......left and right.

That is difficult to reconcile with the various television interviews with Tom K, his articles, statements, or affidavits over the years. Was Tom not a partner with Bob Corbin, and went along with him looking for the Dutchman's mine on more than one occasion, or do I have that wrong too?

Cactusjumper also wrote

I have always voiced the opinion that Waltz's gold ore came from many places where he prospected through the years.

A valid enough opinion, however on what is it based? Most of the photos ever published or seen have been of the matchbox, or earrings, as far as I know no one has a photo of the actual ore in the box from under Waltz's bed, and again the only source I know of that claims it was fifty different kinds came from an interview with Pete Petrasch in which Pete makes other highly questionable claims such as he knew Waltz personally. More on this aspect in a moment.

Cactusjumper also wrote

There are a number of people in the Dutch Hunting Community who have low opinions of my character. Thankfully, there are more who have just the opposite opinion. I am ok with that.

Some people cannot be friends if they cannot agree on every thing. Others may have been deeply offended by your tendency to be blunt and honest, which as you know does not offend everyone. Over time I would bet that even some of those offended folks will learn that you had no malice toward them in the first place.

Springfield wrote

I wouldn't call them 'attacks', I would call them pointed questions trying to find the truth. I see two 'problems' with the matchbox ore, vis-a-vis the contention it came from a 'Lost Dutchmen Mine' in the Superstition Mountains. First, there is no proof the matchbox ore came from the candle box of ore allegedly found under Waltz's bed. The matchbox ore is nice picture rock, but these ore samples are easy enough to get a hold of from a number of sources. The 'LDM' claim enhances the reputation of the ore's owner, I'm sure, but doesn't solve the LDM mystery - unless, of course a mine is found in the Superstitions which produces matching ore.

We have been over this before. There is no absolutely undeniable chain of evidence proving beyond all doubt that the matchbox came from Waltz's mine. What we DO have are the known actions of people directly involved. Dick Holmes, in particular. The Matchbox IS traceable to Holmes. Holmes claimed that it was made from ore in that candlebox; he also said that he was given it by Waltz, and then proceeded to spend the rest of his life, and then his son after him, and Clay Wurst to this very day, searching for the mine it came from. This is not courtroom type evidence, but it certainly supports the contention that Holmes was telling the truth about it based on his own actions. If he were lying about it entirely, he would not have gone in search of the mine. Holmes does not seem to have been anything other than a practical man.

Springfield also wrote

Secondly, the underlying bigger problem. If you accept that the matchbox ore came from under Waltz's bed, then you have to accept on faith that that ore originated from a phantom mine in the Superstitions. While it's true that no matching ore has been found from a source not in the Superstions, this argument does not support the contention that the matchbox ore did originate in the Superstitions.

As has been gone over previously many times, this "phantom mine" as you put it, certainly would fit with observed behavior of Waltz, Holmes, Julia and Reiney, the memories of old timers from Florence, the version from Tom Weedin as told him by Dr Walker etc. If you dismiss the mine, you must dismiss all of these people's statements and their actions as well. You are certainly free and welcome to dismiss the whole, stay home and watch that TV, but of course no one has ever found a lost mine by staying home.

<Oroblanco wrote previously>

... I am also informed that both Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn no longer believe there ever was a Lost Dutchman gold mine, after spending decades of their lives in the search for it, and while I have the utmost respect for both of these men, cannot help but think that the years of argument and pressure from the skeptics and scorners has had an effect. It would be astonishing if the AZ School of Mines had no collection of gold ores; in fact the USGS has an impressive collection too, as do many of the Schools of Mines around the country...

And Springfield replied,

It seems more likely these gentlemen may have arrived at their conclusions based on a whole lot of rational thought and open-mindedness, rather than pressure from others.

Do you contend that the pressure, argument, even ridicule of a circle of friends and/or relatives, would have no effect on someone, especially after they had made a number of unsuccessful searches? I can tell you that it certainly does; how many treasure hunters have had to deal with an angry wife (or husband) for having spent money and time on a fruitless search? Of course it could be exactly as you say, but I can't help but suspect that this pressure, combined with what seem to be failed attempts had a strong effect. Toss in the deceitful falsehoods that they were fed by someone they trusted too.

Springfield also wrote

I've seen hundreds of samples of gold ores in private collections and at the Schools of Mines in Golden, CO and Socorro, NM. They are generally labeled with the names and locations of the mines that produced them. These samples are nearly always spectacular in some way. However, unless I'm mistaken, you will not find a cataloged collection of gold ores anywhere that contains samples from all veins, from all drifts and stopes, from all mines in any state. If such a database existed, then your argument would be on stronger legs.

Have you been to the Arizona state university school of mines? I have not. In fact I have not even tried. Whether they have a collection or none whatsoever, finding a mine with ore that matches the Waltz matchbox specimen, would settle the issue for me. You are certainly free and welcome to dismiss this approach, and of course stay home with the selections available on cable or satellite for entertainment. But you then also have no argument against anyone who claim they have found the Lost Dutchman mine, which might fit one or more of the clues, and has some kind of old hole in the ground, and should by rights start passing out the compliments to the claimaints.

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp wrote

I 'still' say the most likely explanation of the Stones was a complex play by Reavis to support his claim for most of Arizona which prob failed because of an inept clerk or assistant. SO THERE, ya bunch of dummies . Hehehehe

Sheesh - and you call ME bull headed?

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek; or that you find suitable entertainment on the telly. There are quite a few gold-mining, prospecting type programs available now so you can watch them dig up the good stuff without leaving the Lazy Boy!
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro de Tayopa: You posted -->Sheesh - and you call ME bull headed?

'
Yep, and Beth and the Baskervilles, all 'back' me up. What other explanation is there for the stone's existance?

As I mentioned to Springfield, drink yer sock coffee before it gets too cold.

What we apparently have here is the blending of three different story/factors. Of the three the Reavis hold more constantly to the path of truth, lightfulness, and Rightfulness, halleluiah, praise be the will of HE.

Period, technique, availability <- misdirected, reason , etc., etc., and no "X" is here, just a massive bit of land grab.

REAVIS _ Reavis _Reavis, Hmm can I take up his claim ?? This would include the location of the LDM and dump the Forestry claim.

K for $ 1:00 I will issue a search permit to whoever wishes a crack at the LDM ,of course if you are successful, I will expect 30% of the gross, not the net.

REAVIS, Reavis, reavis so there.

Now quit nit pickin on incorrect data, ya bums and drink your coffee

DON JOSE DE LA MANCHA

p.s. still haven't received my photo of the skeletons, stone axe, and the broken Spanish sword. sigh, now I am beginning to know how Reavis felt when his assistant lost the location of the Stones to back up his claim to Ariz.

 

[somehiker]

I take it then, that the "Pit Mine" near Iron Mountain is no longer considered by anyone with insider knowledge to be the LDM ??
No wonder Jack has changed gears to Ghost Busting.
Glad to see Roy's mention of Clay Worst, since it seems that Clay has probably done more research and has more experience in the search than anyone.
I had a nice conversation with him and Greg last year over Saturday morning coffee, and I believe in him and his convictions.
Frankly, every time a discussion about the Stone Maps, LDM, or any other legendary treasure becomes distorted with so called "privileged information" and where the source cannot be revealed, I am reminded of something WC Fields once quipped...."If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with .......".

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I wonder over this pit mine out at iron mountain...

as a child learning these names...that mine would be referred to as a shaft...not a pit...a pit implies an openness to the operation...where the mouth of the mine is larger than the working end of the stope.

 

[somehiker]

Donald:

I agree. Until I started wandering the Sups and learned about some of it's mining history and the terms which most seemed to use, I always thought of open pit mines. The first photos of this particular operation though, which were posted by Joe as I recall, did show a steep sided wide-mouthed pit, which narrowed down to a smaller opening at the bottom. Most of the original debate was posted here.....Lost Dutchman Gold Mine - Arizona Superstition Mountain Wilderness - Gold Mining ? View topic - LOST OR.....FOUND?

It has occurred to me, given all of the observations and claims of fabricated evidence, dirty tricksters and plain old practical-joking Dutch Hunters, that this whole thing might fall within the same category. Wouldn't be too hard for a crew to haul a bunch of gear and garbage up to an old claim, do a bit of digging to make it look as though recent work was done etc. etc. Then all ya gotta do is whisper to the right folks to get the word out, and write a book about a fantastic treasure discovery. No names of course.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

yes..i recall that conversation...boy was I pissed about the garbage....still am actually...

 

[somehiker]

I always have a couple of garbage bags in my pack. Old tin cans and drink bottles often get carried out this way, although there is usually little of that where I've been going lately. Tim and I did manage to carry some trash out of the mountains after the Rendezvous though. Always gives some satisfaction in knowing that others won't have to deal with the eyesore.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I removed some trash with my pickup from the rendezvous...empty pickup...among the last to leave...here take this will ya?

 

[Springfield]

... finding a mine with ore that matches the Waltz matchbox specimen, would settle the issue for me...

Me too - I couldn't agree more!