The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[pippinwhitepaws]

well...these tiny bits of vague information have me stymied...

I have not seen anything posted to imply this iron mountain mine is the Dutchman...people claim yet, provide little to base the claim.
the photos posted on this mine, on the other site, do show an immense amount of work in the wilderness area...
and here the double jerks warn everyone to stay out of THIER pit?
? will we find something that will lead the research away from your illegal fame and fortune?

more legends, myths and disinformation...
just another lost mission story...
perhaps I just don't deserve to know anything on the subject?

 

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[sgtfda]

Roy don't be silly. We're friends. One thing I've learned over the years nothing is ever as it seems. At this point nothing surprises me but I'm waiting

Donald where there is smoke there's fire. Even if someone is blowing smoke up your butt. As we have seen there are those who think the wilderness area belongs to them and treat it as such.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thanks frank...met those type of people myself...

it is just after being raised around hard rock miners...that some skinny kid with a pricy hat an vest is the finder of the Dutchman is just difficult to accept...
who ran the double jack to dig that pit...not those skinny arms.

 

[sgtfda]

Well they sit at the rendezvous with a smirk on their face laughing on the inside at the rest of us. Kings of the Apache Trail.

 

[cactusjumper]

No offense intended amigo, in fact I am trying to see it your way! I just can't make it work for me. Now if Waltz's story had nothing prior to his becoming ill and being taken to Julia's home, and then the story turns up, I could easily buy it that it was all just a tale to keep her cooking his meals and changing his bedding.

Good luck to you buddy, didn't mean to come across like it was some troll waiting for a word to pounce on it. I hope you have a great day,
Roy

Roy,

Can you tell me where anything was known about Waltz having a rich gold mine in the Superstitions, prior to his death. It is often said it was common knowledge around Phoenix but all those stories, as far as I know, came about after his death. I still believe it was due to what I call the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. (Elmer Keith)

It seems the legend could have been generated by an old prospectors hoard of rich gold ore that he kept in a wooden box. You may have noticed that there are as many varying descriptions of that ore as there are differing stories about Waltz himself.

Not saying Waltz did not have a rich mine in the Superstitions, only that there are other possibilities. It seems, at least, prudent to consider those possibilities.

I don't envy your swiftly approaching.......White season.

My best to you, Beth and the pups,

Joe

p.s. you were certainly missed at the Rendezvous this year. Next year will be the tenth anniversary of the event. Wayne is planing on having speakers Friday & Saturday night.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Pups pups?? those man eaters are as big as I am.

Dopn Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I did notice an uncanny resemblance.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Don Jose de La Cholla: May I ask just who will be your second? My lovely, sexy Mule says that she disagrees with you, That I look more like her long lost boyfriend

hmmmmhmm, perhaps I should rephrase that ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Don Jose de La Cholla



ROFL....had to read that twice...lol...'now who is he speaking too'

 

[Oroblanco]

Extra coffee alert.

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Can you tell me where anything was known about Waltz having a rich gold mine in the Superstitions, prior to his death. It is often said it was common knowledge around Phoenix but all those stories, as far as I know, came about after his death. I still believe it was due to what I call the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. (Elmer Keith)

Well amigo I just promised that I would not waste either your time nor mine, but as you have posed questions, it would not be very courteous to not respond. As usual I could not put it into a few words so if you would rather save your time, the short answer is YES, there is such info if you look hard enough; I would add the lost Doc Thorne as supporting evidence as well.

Now the long-winded answer.

If you are looking for a published document, yes, the Phoenix newspapers carried several articles prior to Oct 25,1891 which told about a lost, rich gold mine in the Superstitions, including one that an "old German" had, but not with the name of Waltz directly attached. Published after the fact but supposed to predate, we have the Holmes account, in which he tried to trail Waltz himself but turned back; while the Holmes account authorship is questioned, it is a fact that Holmes proceeded to search for the mine himself for the rest of his life, as did his son and then Clay Wurst. If it were entirely a fairy tale, one would not expect Holmes to have searched. We could throw in Julia and Reiney, with their single trip WITH Waltz, which was prior to his death but unsuccessful in reaching it. Mitchell's articles, published before Sims Ely's book, include the names of several well known persons whom all tried to trail Waltz to the mine, along with witnessing him sell a load of ore in Tucson. Several persons interviewed in the Pioneer Interviews told of a slightly different version of Waltz and his mine, adding that it was not a big deal in the time period when he was working out of Florence - there were other prospectors coming into town at the same time of course so perhaps a different environment from Phoenix but also there simply did not seem to be the same attitude of the townsfolk as you see in Phoenix.

That "hell I was there" syndrome is certainly valid in some cases, but one need only look at the actual results on the death of Waltz; quite a few people went searching for the mine, some of whom definitely had known Waltz (like his carpenter) and the fact that none, or so few (if we count Phipps) were willing to attempt finding the mine while Waltz was yet alive may be that the stories told of Waltz being considered quite dangerous were true. Whether he was actually dangerous or not, the perception that he was a man that just might kill you if he found you looking for his mine, seems supported by evidence. Even in the Holmes account, despite Holmes bravado, in his own story of trailing Waltz, the whole situation changed when he realized that Waltz was holding a rifle sight directly on him and watching him. He did not attempt it again while Waltz was alive. While this can be dismissed of course, one might ask yourself, if you knew there was a very rich gold mine out in the sticks somewhere, and an old man, maybe even a bit rickety type old man was working it BUT that old man was widely rumored to be a real killer whom would kill you if he caught you out there, would YOU go look for his mine, while he was alive? I would not. It makes sense to me, not just the stories (even sorting out the confabulation info that does not properly belong with Waltz) but the way it played out.

Right after Waltz was dead, what happened? Did we see just one or two "deluded" people go off looking for his mine? No, quite a few went hunting it, almost a mini-rush, and they found some rich gold mines at Goldfield, one of which had clear signs that someone had indeed been working it years previously (check out the Mormon Stope).

Cactusjumper also wrote

It seems the legend could have been generated by an old prospectors hoard of rich gold ore that he kept in a wooden box. You may have noticed that there are as many varying descriptions of that ore as there are differing stories about Waltz himself.

Not saying Waltz did not have a rich mine in the Superstitions, only that there are other possibilities. It seems, at least, prudent to consider those possibilities.

I don't envy your swiftly approaching.......White season

Actually most of the descriptions of the ore are not that varied, a white quartz loaded with visible gold, and later, some started describing it as a "rose quartz" gold ore, which is not in the earliest descriptions I could find, not sure where that originated. The story of multiple kinds of ore really only turns up in a single interview with Pete Petrasch, and in this same interview, late in Pete's life BTW, he also made other claims which are not true. Pete Petrasch never saw what was in that box.

What about Dr John D Walker's connection? Do we just ignore that too, based on the fact we got the story via Tom Weedin, and Weedin was a newspaper man and thus automatically must be a baldfaced liar? According to Tom Kollenborn, Dr Walker did not spend much, if any time personally looking for the lost bonanza, but he DID grubstake a couple of fellows for a search. Why would he do that, if he really were not involved and it is all a tall tale invented by Tom Weedin?

Then we have the Doc Thorne lost mine - this was getting plenty of circulation well before Waltz was dead, and again it was a white quartz with visible gold. Quite a few of the earliest lost mine searchers in the Superstitions area were hunting the Doc Thorne mine in fact, which many have concluded is one and the same with Waltz's mine. The Thorne story, like the Waltz story, got confabulated and blurred with BS over time, even some today who claim there never was such a person as Doc Thorne, yet someone going by that name was in the town of Phoenix telling people that he was off searching for his lost mine, eight years before Waltz was dead, just search for "Doc Thorn in town again" as the story headline. One example predating Waltz's death is in the Arizona silver belt, 1888-07-21, page 3 column 1.
Arizona silver belt, 1888-07-21 :: Arizona Silver Belt

Do you include Joe Deering as a part of this legend? Personally I do not think Deering's mine was one and the same with Waltz's, but I do have documentary evidence that he was in AZ prior to the death of Waltz, which also helps date the timing of events connected with him. If you would like, I can post a couple documents to prove there was a real Joe Deering in AZ, prior to 1891.

I realize this is a waste of time as you have your own conclusions and I have mine, just thought I would attempt to answer your questions. But ask yourself this amigo - do you really think Clay Wurst, Bob Corbin, and Tom Kollenborn were all just self-deluded and wasting time? Or perhaps were they (and in the case of Clay, present tense) actually on to something? It is always easier to just dismiss all of these reports of lost mines as so much BS, stay home, watch TV and play on the internet. Most people will think you wise for doing so too, and you won't get called all the various names and insults that treasure hunters do, nor have to defend what you do against numerous scorners naysayers, skeptics and of course the ever-ready fellow there to ridicule you and your pursuits.

I hope all is well with you and yours Joe, can't say that I am thrilled at the prospect of what is coming so quickly here either. However we have been told that the last several winters in which we were absent, they had the mildest winter weather on record, so I fully expect that this one will be a record in the opposite direction. The Huskies of course are LOVING each cold snap and snowfall, like the surprise Oct 4th blizzard which thankfully all melted off fairly quickly. Side thingie but I must beg to differ with Don Jose's term of "maneaters" too, for I have yet to lose any fingers to them, usually when they realize that they are biting their masters they won't complete the bite and eat a chunk as they might do with a stranger. Besides, even Angel, my own dog, whom is MOST un-trustworthy with strangers, <she even tried to bite the woman whom owned her mother and was present at her birth> and particularly difficult to make friends with, seemed to like Don Jose on sight, did not even offer to bite him. (They have good taste in friends!) I would bet they would like el Cactusjumper Joe too. Anyway i will try to make good use of the indoor time over the winter, ala Custer and several other writing projects which have been put off for some time.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have never felt any posts by you were a waste of my, or anyone else's, time. I always check out your posts before any others. That being said, it would be a very boring world if we all agreed on everything.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

PiPipaws: I wonder if they realize that the forest service reads these ems and know that they are violating the law ??

Don Jose

p.s Coffee my friend?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

PiPipaws: I wonder if they realize that the forest service reads these ems and know that they are violating the law ??

Don Jose

p.s Coffee my friend?

seems curious doesn't it sir?
coffe always...but I use a screen rather than a sock.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro posted --->the woman whom owned her mother Correction, "the woman whom her mother chose to 'live' with"

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[somehiker]

PiPipaws: I wonder if they realize that the forest service reads these ems and know that they are violating the law ??

Don Jose

p.s Coffee my friend?

A visit by treasury agents and an audit would concern me more.
One thing to cast a smirk or two. Totally different to "live high off the hog".
Even for those who might be considered "accessories after the fact".
Try telling THEM you was only kidding !

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I have never felt any posts by you were a waste of my, or anyone else's, time. I always check out your posts before any others. That being said, it would be a very boring world if we all agreed on everything.

Take care,

Joe

A good debate is always worth the time and effort, speaking for myself, very often it leads to doing more research, and I always feel that I have learned something by such intelligent exchanges. Perhaps I have a mistaken impression but I thought I understood you to be fully confident in your convictions concerning the Lost Dutchman mine, which would not be something open to change by any debate.

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Oro posted --->the woman whom owned her mother Correction, "the woman whom her mother chose to 'live' with"

Don Jose de La Mancha

I stand corrected - you have that right, they really do seem to choose their humans, more so than the reverse in fact. Not too different from the way many cats are in that respect. I will reserve you a pup amigo, as you have need of a good dog to keep an eye on you when you are out in the barranca country.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[coazon de oro]

Well they sit at the rendezvous with a smirk on their face laughing on the inside at the rest of us. Kings of the Apache Trail.

Howdy Frank,

You and Joe took hook, line, and sinker on this one. Of course they just sit there with a smirk on their faces laughing at those who believe they found it. That's exactly what their bloated egos want you to believe. They are desperate for recognition, and won't admit, or tell you the truth.

That place is as far away from the clues as Spirit Mountain, how anyone could believe it is the LDM is beyond me.

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[gollum]

Okay,

While I have to admit the possibility that the famous/infamous "Pit Mine" may well have also been the "LDM", I don't believe it is so for many of the same reasons that Roy has already posted.

Has anybody thought that maybe some "Dutch Hunters'" PUBLIC feelings about the reality of the LDM may differ greatly from their personal beliefs? With people going missing and turning up dead every couple of years, why not try to dissuade all but the most die hard LDM "NUTZ"? LOL If word gets out that the "L" in "LDM" no longer applies, then it may save several peoples' lives. I don't have a problem with that. The people that have spent the time (both researching and wearing out boot leather), know a little more than the average bear. The die hard folks usually are better able to fend for themselves in the mountains and deserts. I am sure most of you get my drift here. I say let the story leak out that the pit mine ore matched the matchbox ore 100%! No question about it! The LDM has been found! Congratulations! Now, lets get back to looking!

Best - Mike

 

[johnmark29020]

The pit mine Imo wouldnt have been that hard to find with proper directions. Especially for a seasoned vet like holms. So if it really is the Ldm. It makes me question the direction. Holmes wanted the mind,and julia was not good with money.
Walts had to bail her out of financial trouble at least once that we know.
What if the death bed confession is a lie.
Maybe julia and holmes were bagering a sick and weak waltz,and after they thought he had gave them the direction they let him or helped him die.
Waltz could have given them false info just to keep them from finding his mine.
The death bed confession story could have been a story to explain waltzs death and their ownership of the mine.
Personally i dont believe holmes wrote the manuscript. I think somone found the mine. Cleaned it out and then could take credit for one reason or another. So they wrote the manuscript and leaked it. That way people could see that somone beat them to the mine,but no one was able to understand where to go.
Must have been frustrating. Who knows at this point.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Mike,

You make a good point. Here I was, trying to cut the line, but I guess it was a legal catch.

Sides, I wouldn't want for my posts to cause Joe heart failure. Joe?