The lost Dutchman’s gold mine location

[Idahodutch]

If we don't know who watched him we can't assume "some in town" were anything more that Bickinell's famously fertile imagination.

You really should look into the history of Bicknell before relying on an article he sold. He was well known in the newspaper business as being among the finest of prevaricators. That was the literary fashion of the time - dime novels and made up heroes.

In Prescott, Bicknells's home, he was known as probably the dumbest prospector in history. He spent most of his considerable personal fortune searching for gold deposits on the Coconino Plateau. The Coconino Plateau is pretty well known geologically as one big pile of various forms of sand and mud turned into sedimentary rock - no chance of gold there. He was pretty lonely out there since no prospector worth his salt would be caught prospecting sandstone for gold. Lucky for him he didn't need investors or a writing income.

The deal with first person accounts is because Sam said Mary said last Tuesday or Wednesday was when Mary's friend thought she saw the brown dog probably down around the Cottonwoods. ... Or maybe it was an old guy with a couple of burros. Lot of trees down there.

I guess it’s good for those that enjoy looking, that this isn’t all there is to go on.
🤓👍
Idahodutch

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Photo of PC Bicknell (on the right) while in the Grand Canyon in 1900.

Bicknell was living in Williams at the Lombard, Goode & Company Smelter, reporting and writing for the Coconino Sun and Prescott Prospect newspapers. The Prospect bankrolled Bicknell to report on and photograph the Grand and Marble Canyons in Northern Arizona for a special geology edition.

Bicknell spent 6 months mapping the geology of the canyons and in 1902 published his world famous, ... Guide Book of the Grand Canyon of Arizona.

Bicknell's book was at the time one of the most complete geologic overviews of the Canyon complete with photos, detailed maps and colorfull coments and stories of the Canyon.

PC Bicknell's actual recorded mining ventures were in the Gold Hill district of Cave Creek where in October 22, 1889 he and Frank Gray filed the Money Maker gold Lode claim in Maricopa County Book of Mines #4 on page 624.
The Money Maker was a good producer employing a crew of men into the early 1900's.

Bicknell earned nationwide aclaim for his Grand Canyon work and was one of Prescott's most beloved and respected citizens until his death in Prescott in 1904.

 

[SPARTANOC]

View attachment 2150278
Photo of PC Bicknell (on the right) while in the Grand Canyon in 1900.

Bicknell was living in Williams at the Lombard, Goode & Company Smelter, reporting and writing for the Coconino Sun and Prescott Prospect newspapers. The Prospect bankrolled Bicknell to report on and photograph the Grand and Marble Canyons in Northern Arizona for a special geology edition.

Bicknell spent 6 months mapping the geology of the canyons and in 1902 published his world famous, ... Guide Book of the Grand Canyon of Arizona.

Bicknell's book was at the time one of the most complete geologic overviews of the Canyon complete with photos, detailed maps and colorfull coments and stories of the Canyon.

PC Bicknell's only actual recorded mining ventures were in the Gold Hill district of Cave Creek where in October 22, 1889 he and Frank Gray filed the Money Maker gold Lode claim in Maricopa County Book of Mines #4 on page 624.
The Money Maker was a good producer employing a crew of men into the early 1900's.

Bicknell earned nationwide aclaim for his Grand Canyon work and was one of Prescott's most beloved and respected citizens until his death in Prescott in 1904.

Matthew Roberts

Interesting contrast to what Clay Diggins had to say about Bicknell. In what you presented, forms a more positive version of the Newsman and I would have to agree with that historical assessment. 😎

-SpartanOC

 

[Clay Diggins]

Matthew Roberts

Interesting contrast to what Clay Diggins had to say about Bicknell. In what you presented, forms a more positive version of the Newsman and I would have to agree with that historical assessment. 😎

-SpartanOC

You might be of a different opinion had you ever read Bicknell's book

Guide Book of the Grand Canyon of Arizona with the Only Correct Maps in Print: A Volume of Interesting Facts and Gossip​

(actual full title)
Published by G Rice and Sons of San Francisco

Hardly a geologists delight. Geologists tend to stay away from gossip as it relates to their profession. Which makes sense since Bicknell wasn't a geologist and never succeeded in finding or developing a profitable mine. The book really isn't about geology, as the title makes clear.

Bicknell was buried in an unmarked grave at the Citizens Cemetery in Prescott, Arizona. If you had studied frontier history and Bicknell's life you would know why one of the richest men in Arizona was buried in a paupers unmarked grave.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Bicknell's sister Josephine bought a headstone for her brother's grave but it never arrived in Prescott.
Dennis Burke the mayor of Prescott was friend and executor of Bicknell's estate which contrary to news reports Bicknell was almost broke at his death.
Bicknell's family back in New York was exceedingly rich but PC and his cousin Pierpont Minor who had come west with PC were disowned by the Bicknell and Pierrepont families.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Yet Bicknell's probate in New York involved over a million. dollars in property. More Kraig "research".

 

[Matthew Roberts]

At Bicknell's probate in Prescott he was slightly in debt. He never received any money inheritance or land holdings.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I didn't study probate extensively in school but I was required to do the full course in Wills and Estates. I learned there that the probate court is properly formed in the jurisdiction where the rem (deceased' property) is located.

Bicknell's will was written and executed in New York, his named heir (his nephew), his bank accounts and his property were all found in New York State so that's where the probate court had jurisdiction. Not sure why any court in Prescott felt they had a right to probate a paupers corpse? Sounds like someone was fishing for loose change from a known millionaire's demise.

The estate willed to Bicknell's nephew amounted to more than 3,000 acres of New York land and a large quantity of bonds, gold and silver coin in several accounts. In 1906 this was considered great wealth. His nephew Eugene P. Bicknell became a wealthy man with his inheritance and went on to accomplish quite a bit in his life. The nephew and his life is another story altogether but worth a side trip if you enjoy real research.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

It seems Bicknell believed he was to inherit the sum of $28,000 as his share of his mother's estate. It consisted of a large tract of timber land in New York State.
However his mother had died in 1874 without leaving a will and the courts drug out the matter for the next 30 years.
Bicknell sister Josephine had sent Bicknell money to help cover his final expenses but was too little and PC ended up owing Prescott $500.
Bicknells brother Eugene who despised PC probably ended up with anything that might have been due PC Bicknell.

No one can say for certain if PC Bicknell wrote his articles about Waltz and the Lost Mine from first hand information or from stories told time and time again around Phoenix. It's up to each individual to decide what they believe and move on.

 

[Clay Diggins]

It's up to each individual to decide what they believe and move on.

Thanks for the explanation. I think I now understand why you post the things you do. I suspected as much but I didn't want to assume your motive. The clarification is appreciated.

For myself I don't believe in anything without a factual basis. I find research to be more productive when forming my beliefs after discovering all the facts rather than trying to make the facts align with my beliefs.

Different strokes for different folks. You've chosen a difficult methodology - you will need luck along with your beliefs on that path. Good luck to you.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Thanks for the explanation. I think I now understand why you post the things you do. I suspected as much but I didn't want to assume your motive. The clarification is appreciated.

For myself I don't believe in anything without a factual basis. I find research to be more productive when forming my beliefs after discovering all the facts rather than trying to make the facts align with my beliefs.

Different strokes for different folks. You've chosen a difficult methodology - you will need luck along with your beliefs on that path. Good luck to you.

Clay Diggins

Wow, that sounded like a "dig" if you asked me. All you really did, Clay, was give an opinion of who YOU think Bicknell was and how he conducted his business. You didn't really prove anything or move the conversation forward and only 'poked' someone else's view. I believe both of you do extensive research, probably more than most, but Clay - I believe you went overboard on Matthew Roberts. We could argue all day as to whom Bicknell was and what his intentions were in the long run, but you might miss something important by a man YOU think wasn't worth the 'Salt of the Sea'. I believe you can learn something from anyone who's actually done the research.

In my opinion, Mr. Bicknell was more than just a failure, which you seem to hold tight to. He apparently was the first to get the story out there and there's an "hunter" here who's proven Bicknell's views (or at least some of them), valid. But hey, I wish you all the Luck as well in your own searches.
-SpartanOC

 

[Matthew Roberts]

SpartanOC,

You make some good points. Everything I post is my opinion even if I post it with references. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or beliefs.

The problem with someone who vows to die on the alter of facts is exactly WHOSE facts are they dying for ?

How does someone know if the facts being used are themselves actually 100% facts ?
Some things are solid but I have read hundreds of so called facts in newspapers, books, affidavits and even legal documents that were proven false.

Most here tend to chose their facts from the sources or people they like and damn the sources and people they don't like. Hardly a method to call yourself a fact checker.

For all we may or may not know of Bicknell, what we do know is only a tiny, TINY fraction of his life and undertakings. Everything that is officially recorded of a person's life, every single hour of that person's life, represents about 1/100th of 1 percent of everything that person ever did. Not a lot to go on to factually decide if a person is an angel or a devil.

 

[Idahodutch]

SpartanOC,

You make some good points. Everything I post is my opinion even if I post it with references. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or beliefs.

The problem with someone who vows to die on the alter of facts is exactly WHOSE facts are they dying for ?

How does someone know if the facts being used are themselves actually 100% facts ?
Some things are solid but I have read hundreds of so called facts in newspapers, books, affidavits and even legal documents that were proven false.

Most here tend to chose their facts from the sources or people they like and damn the sources and people they don't like. Hardly a method to call yourself a fact checker.

For all we may or may not know of Bicknell, what we do know is only a tiny, TINY fraction of his life and undertakings. Everything that is officially recorded of a person's life, every single hour of that person's life, represents about 1/100th of 1 percent of everything that person ever did. Not a lot to go on to factually decide if a person is an angel or a devil.

Great post Matthew. 👍
Our beliefs or unbeliefs are a huge factor in how we perceive facts, tainting our views.
🥸
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Ramiro valdez]

When looking for the Dutchman’s lost goldmine, I suggest that you use the photo that was taken by the Arizona Reporter. The left side wall of the needle will give you the line of sight that points towards the Dutchman’s goldmine. The left side wall gave birth to the shadow that also points in the same direction. The shadow will not do you justice unless you carry a spyglass. When climbing the old military trail that led to Apache Fort, in the direction of Aztec peak, the Dutchman directions were to look back and keep an eye on the needle so you can align your self to the saddle located on top of the Sierra Ancha mountain ridge because there ain’t no other military trail that climbs towards the east. Because military trails were defined to lead from fort to fort. This trail was a safe trail that also was used to get to San Carlos. The alignment is going to lead you to the high point of the saddle peak. The Dutchman also drew the direction and placement of the saddle on his doodle. But since you don’t believe in cipher maps instructions then I guess it’s ok to question them. But don’t question me cause I do know how to read them. The hidden canyon is a mile away on the eastern side of the saddle. The high point was very important to anyone who dare to go into the eastern summit. It lets you know if anyone is occupying the goldmine. At ground level you’re not going to see the hidden canyon unless you’ve seen it from the high point. The high point is the actual place where you can view the needle, the four peaks that lineup, plus the military trail that comes from Fort McDowell and since your literally above his goldmine, I can say that he wasn’t lying about what he said. He had the right to say that you who don’t understand cipher symbols, cipher text, cipher messaging, will never find his goldmine. Some will continue the legacy of not finding it based on not knowing how to read cipher maps which is understandable. Again this thread was made for the purpose of defining the location and learning how to read the cipher map. Now, I’m goin to take a longer break to see what direction you’re going to take.

 

[Ramiro valdez]

Here is a simple drawing of a cipher map by Jacob Waltz which he gave to Dick Holmes. It is considered the beginning or the first cipher map of three cipher maps that he drew for three of his friends. The first one describes the direction of location for the goldmine, the second one describes the set point of direction and the third one describes the immediate area of the hidden location. He wanted his friends to work together on this joint venture in finding the goldmine. He gave each one a drawing, but did not explain to them exactly what it meant or what clue to follow first. The idea was to figure out all three ciphers then combine together and not to tell anyone what they meant. All three had a piece of the puzzle and it was a fail safe plan. It was so safe that each one went their separate ways and they all fail? The first clue was Dick Holme’s cipher map. It had the miner’s needle with eye to the right and the needle rock structure to the left. But he didn’t draw the needle’s out line as one would view it. He drew the outline of the shadow as one would see when the sun goes down defining the two square heads with the a V shape in the middle that resembles an old long range rifle barrel gun sight and your going to need something that big because you’re going to be looking for something very far? The V shaped gunsight and its shadow point towards a central section of direction between the north and the east. In order to figure out what the needle is looking at, you would need have to climb the needle set your compass to verify that the cross on the map reads the same as your compass identifying the central direction of what the needle is pointing to which points to the Sierra Ancha mountain range peak. He drew the mountain peak a little bit higher than the needle because it’s a fact that it is higher than the needle. He then drew between the needle and the mountain peak an exploded view of the the right section of the peak that he considered to be the saddle description. On this saddle drawing he places the cross describing the exact location of elevation regarding the goldmine because it lies on the opposite side of the saddle. No one, including the needle can see the goldmine because it’s hidden on the eastern side of the Sierra Ancha mountain peak. So the man who said I came, I saw, I conquered created his own cipher which means I came to the top of the needle, I saw what I needed to see, and I conquered the mountain peak that contains the goldmine. A picture sometimes can contain a thousand words. So those historians who want to learn more about ciphering can stick around to learn to decipher the other two. Those miners who want the gold don’t need to stick around cause all the ciphers from all the major players are going to point to the same eastern summit area of the Sierra Ancha mountain range peaks. You can count on it! You can start crossing out all those map that have nothing to do with the LDM because there is no LDM in the superstitious mountains or surrounding areas cause there never was or ever be will be. Ciphering has always been the cause of deception that has lead many the wrong way. In closing for now, I can say that there is no treasure under the money pit on Oak Island……..

 

[Ramiro valdez]

I called this the inside and outside mirror effect. This is Jacob’s second drawing given to Rhinehardt Petrarch where as the first drawing was made to locate the saddle, this one was made to verify the saddle’s high point of view looking back at the needle. What is hidden in this drawing is the proper view of the needle. The wrapping starts on the right upper hand corner of the mirror and works its way down attaching itself to the saddle’s high point of view drawing which defines that saddle as not being part of what is inside the mirror. Everything you see inside a mirror is reversed and the only thing reversed in this drawing is the needle. When you face the drawing onto a mirror you will find the proper view of the needle and everything else will be reversed. If and when you get to the saddle’s high point, you should look back towards the needle to verify the clue of the hidden view letting you know that you’re on the verge of discovering the hidden canyon. Al Reser came into possession of a questionable third drawing describing the eye of the needle and he believed that Jacob Waltz probably drew it for Rhinehardt. I concur, that is the eye of the needle. But because the hidden canyon is well hidden, they were going to have no choice but to accept the assistance of Julia Thomas who also had a better description plus location of the eye of the needle on one of her map which may have been drawn in by Jacob Waltz as a clue to help locate the hidden canyon. Stick around to learn more truth and deciphering about Julia’s map. Ciphering is originally meant to deceive and secondary to lead.

 

[Terry Soloman]

 

[SPARTANOC]

I called this the inside and outside mirror effect. This is Jacob’s second drawing given to Rhinehardt Petrarch where as the first drawing was made to locate the saddle, this one was made to verify the saddle’s high point of view looking back at the needle. What is hidden in this drawing is the proper view of the needle. The wrapping starts on the right upper hand corner of the mirror and works its way down attaching itself to the saddle’s high point of view drawing which defines that saddle as not being part of what is inside the mirror. Everything you see inside a mirror is reversed and the only thing reversed in this drawing is the needle. When you face the drawing onto a mirror you will find the proper view of the needle and everything else will be reversed. If and when you get to the saddle’s high point, you should look back towards the needle to verify the clue of the hidden view letting you know that you’re on the verge of discovering the hidden canyon. Al Reser came into possession of a questionable third drawing describing the eye of the needle and he believed that Jacob Waltz probably drew it for Rhinehardt. I concur, that is the eye of the needle. But because the hidden canyon is well hidden, they were going to have no choice but to accept the assistance of Julia Thomas who also had a better description plus location of the eye of the needle on one of her map which may have been drawn in by Jacob Waltz as a clue to help locate the hidden canyon. Stick around to learn more truth and deciphering about Julia’s map. Ciphering is originally meant to deceive and secondary to lead.

Ramiro Valdez

I don't want to be a 'pain' or discount any possible information you might want to share, but again, you've not shown any evidence that would definitively show that Jacob went that far up North to the Sierra Ancha mountain range. You can show maps all day long, you can explain Ciphers all day long (and we appreciate that effort), but really nothing you've shown convinces the curious or the serious - who have done research of the LDM - that the area you speak of, is of importance or concern to Jacob's story.

As I've said before - there's a good chance that area does have evidence of some kind of activity up there, as that is a historical area of sorts - it's just that what you are pointing out just doesn't sit well with the original story or of a logical position of Jacob going out that far. There's absolutely nothing that has ever shown Waltz made it up that far north regarding the LDM or his cache(s), as old Jacob was just that; old.

To be honest, I would love to believe Jacob did make it up there, but I have to go with historical statements that has Waltz closer to the Superstitions and surrounding areas - opposed to the Sierra Ancha Mountains.

-SpartanOC

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Ramiro Valdez

I don't want to be a 'pain' or discount any possible information you might want to share, but again, you've not shown any evidence that would definitively show that Jacob went that far up North to the Sierra Ancha mountain range. You can show maps all day long, you can explain Ciphers all day long (and we appreciate that effort), but really nothing you've shown convinces the curious or the serious - who have done research of the LDM - that the area you speak of, is of importance or concern to Jacob's story.

As I've said before - there's a good chance that area does have evidence of some kind of activity up there, as that is a historical area of sorts - it's just that what you are pointing out just doesn't sit well with the original story or of a logical position of Jacob going out that far. There's absolutely nothing that has ever shown Waltz made it up that far north regarding the LDM or his cache(s), as old Jacob was just that; old.

To be honest, I would love to believe Jacob did make it up there, but I have to go with historical statements that has Waltz closer to the Superstitions and surrounding areas - opposed to the Sierra Ancha Mountains.

-SpartanOC

SpartanOC,

I do not believe the lost mine of Jacob Waltz is in the Sierra Ancha mountains. All of Waltz clues and directions he gave to people closest to him were pointed directly at the Superstition mountain range.

There is a reason however why Waltz is tied by some to the Sierra Ancha range.

In 1869 Territorial Governor Anson Safford organized a party of about 200 miners to search for the Doc Thorne gold mine.
Led by Thomas Minor who reportedly knew the way, the expedition left Prescott and after weeks of useless wandering ended up in the Sierra Ancha range near Aztec Peak. Disgusted and disillusioned, there the expedition fell apart and the miners scattered and went their separate ways.
Later on, several authors believed Waltz had been a member of the 1869 Safford expedition and found his Dutchman Mine after leaving the expedition.

Many took that to mean Waltz had found the mine in the Ancha's and that Aztec Peak was the peak mentioned in many of the LDM clues.
On top of this, Waltz's closest friends and next door neighbor in Phoenix, Jacob and Andrew Starrar filed a gold Lode Mining claim east of Cherry Creek at the western foot of the Sierra Ancha Mountains.

All this wild speculation led to some believing the Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz was somewhere over in the Sierra Ancha range.

 

[SPARTANOC]

SpartanOC,

I do not believe the lost mine of Jacob Waltz is in the Sierra Ancha mountains. All of Waltz clues and directions he gave to people closest to him were pointed directly at the Superstition mountain range.

There is a reason however why Waltz is tied by some to the Sierra Ancha range.

In 1869 Territorial Governor Anson Safford organized a party of about 200 miners to search for the Doc Thorne gold mine.
Led by Thomas Minor who reportedly knew the way, the expedition left Prescott and after weeks of useless wandering ended up in the Sierra Ancha range near Aztec Peak. Disgusted and disillusioned, there the expedition fell apart and the miners scattered and went their separate ways.
Later on, several authors believed Waltz had been a member of the 1869 Safford expedition and found his Dutchman Mine after leaving the expedition.

Many took that to mean Waltz had found the mine in the Ancha's and that Aztec Peak was the peak mentioned in many of the LDM clues.
On top of this, Waltz's closest friends and next door neighbor in Phoenix, Jacob and Andrew Starrar filed a gold Lode Mining claim east of Cherry Creek at the western foot of the Sierra Ancha Mountains.

All this wild speculation led to some believing the Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz was somewhere over in the Sierra Ancha range.

Matthew Roberts

I've not heard of this. Exactly which authors (their books) have made the statement of Waltz possibly had been in that organized party - which ended up in the Sierra Ancha Range?

To be honest, out of all that I've been able to obtain regarding Jacob Waltz; I've never seen a reference to this, other than the Mining Club of the Southwest Foundation - to which seems to be your source of reference and in there - only tells of the organized expedition, not the people involved (the miners).

Mining Club of the Southwest Foundation Tucson, Arizona

-SpartanOC