The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[pippinwhitepaws]

the ore is the least identifier for the Dutchman...bodies, tools, frying pan...tools from several eras and national manufactures...apache stone tools, points ect...
signs of habitation, Spanish, Mexican, American...

I guess I just need more than a piece of rock.

 

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[somehiker]

I removed some trash with my pickup from the rendezvous...empty pickup...among the last to leave...here take this will ya?

So what did it cost to tow the heap out ?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

nothing..i was leaving anyway...lol

 

[Springfield]

the ore is the least identifier for the Dutchman...bodies, tools, frying pan...tools from several eras and national manufactures...apache stone tools, points ect...
signs of habitation, Spanish, Mexican, American...

I guess I just need more than a piece of rock.

That stuff would be great to find, but most of it's available in lots of places. Heck, my place in Pinos Altos has everything you've listed except 'Spanish', and the jury's still out on that one. I agree that a LDM ought to have some artifacts down in the hole, but unless there's killer ore there - no cigar. But that's just me.

 

[sgtfda]

The best not kept secret in the Superstitions. The Pitt Mine. Cleaned out by those who's best interest is to keep the LDM lost. After all their businesses depend on the legend staying alive. What a joke. Jack will be teaching a college course on the subject. I'm convinced the Pitt is the LDM. Sorry guys they beat you to it. Not hard to figure out who was involved. All of a sudden their living high on the hog smiling. Did not take long for this old detective to figure it out. Some of that ore is still floating around.

 

[Springfield]

The best not kept secret in the Superstitions. The Pitt Mine. Cleaned out by those who's best interest is to keep the LDM lost. After all their businesses depend on the legend staying alive. What a joke. Jack will be teaching a college course on the subject. I'm convinced the Pitt is the LDM. Sorry guys they beat you to it.

We've heard this before - some guys quietly 'cleaned out' the Pit Mine, the true LDM. My first questions would deal with the number of workers, the depth and placement of the ore, how they kept things quiet and how many man-hours were spent before the site was 'cleaned out'. I'm a logistics-oriented guy. Seemingly, the operation was done relatively quickly, which indicates there might not have been a lot of ore to remove. Any details available?

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa - sorry but no cigar amigo, too thin for tying Reavis to the stone tablets. AS for your question as to what other explanation, what could have carved those stones, glaciers!

The Pit Mine - never bought that it was the LDM, sorry. It has the funnel-shaped pit, a tunnel driven, and some gold taken out, yet not one piece of the ore has been shown to the public which would really go far to prove it was the LDM. Then look at the OLD story of the Ludy brothers mine aka- Peralta mine, it has the funnel shaped pit, the tunnel driven in etc, it is the story that got confabulated in with the Dutchman's mine, even Sims Ely and Jim Bark realized this but too late in the game for them to have a chance at finding it. Waltz's mine had an opening no larger than a barrel - and not more than a dozen feet or so deep. Not a huge funnel shaped pit, where hundreds of peons slaved away while watching for Apaches over their shoulders, and Waltz had no tunnel - just a rather shallow mine shaft not very big in diameter. There was no need to excavate out a huge amount of rock, he was mining out very rich ore. I would say that these mysterious fellows who worked the Pit mine had successfully found the Ludy brothers/Peralta mine! Just my opinion of course, I am sure that and six dollars might get you a cup of coffee at the local cafe.

There was a reason why Waltz had such a difficult time explaining to his friends how to find that mine - think about it; if it really were a huge funnel shaped pit, you could likely see it from a good distance away and it would not be THAT hard to find; Waltz is supposed to have said that you could drive an Army pack train over his mine and not see it, how could you do that if it were a big open pit? He also told Reiney, that mine is hard to find even when you know where it is! That makes sense if you are talking about a mine that has a covered opening, not much bigger in diameter than a bushel basket, but would be nonsense if it were the big funnel pit, shaft etc.


Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco



PS check out the "Jacobs and Ludi" Peralta story in pp 49-52, Trail of the Lost Dutchman, Barry Storm, 1939; Storm got one name wrong (Jacobs, was really Jacob Ludy) but otherwise has the tale, which fits the Pit Mine very well.

 

[sgtfda]

You won't hear the details from me. A friend or two had some involvement. For those that refuse to accept it that's fine. I have no interest in the LDM. After all perhaps they just found a very rich hole. The Dutchman was working that area in my opinion drywashing. I will be doing some there myself.

 

[sgtfda]

Roy from the photos I've seen the Pitt was not huge. As I always say just follow the path of mineralization in the area. These deposits line up. Not just there but in all of Arizona.

 

[wrmickel1]

You won't hear the details from me. A friend or two had some involvement. For those that refuse to accept it that's fine. I have no interest in the LDM. After all perhaps they just found a very rich hole. The Dutchman was working that area in my opinion drywashing. I will be doing some there myself.

Hey Sgtfda

Did that friend or two ever mention a 120 ft. tunnel that goes under there pit mine. And did they claim it was the LDM. I'm not much into the LDM side of things, as much as the Peralta Stone's. But to cross reference them is what I'm trying to do now!

Thanks Wrmickel1

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy from the photos I've seen the Pitt was not huge. As I always say just follow the path of mineralization in the area. These deposits line up. Not just there but in all of Arizona.

No issue with me amigo, when the Pit mine debate was going I was the 'odd man out' by NOT believing it was the mine of Waltz, even was accused of being in denial, refusing to see what is plain as day, how it fits so many clues etc. The Pit Mine could have been the LDM, certainly - however it doesn't float in my pond, the ores there are basically silver ores, and before someone jumps in to say "they did not mine out silver" I will point out AGAIN that it is absolutely normal to find a nice vein of gold, a pocket, in a silver mine; what I have seen of the ore does not agree with the infamous matchbox IMHO (and I am not a geologist) not on particle size nor the visible minerals in it, and no one has offered an assay result on Pit ore either. If it were the LDM, it should have a very high gold-to-silver ratio, <lots of gold per ton, not much silver> not the inverse, and I suspect that ore had plenty of silver in it. (I have an article somewhere about the finding of a nice vein of gold in the Randolph district in a silver mine there, if I can find it I will post it)

One other thing too Sarge but if Waltz were simply drywashing, there would not have been much need to have the ore assayed before the buyer would take it, the matchbox is clearly not placer gold, neither are the earrings or cuff links; those witnesses who saw Waltz selling ore in Tucson also said it was quartz ore not placer. Just something to consider, and I do wish you good luck and good hunting - hope to see some nice photos of a pan full of GOLD you get when you go!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Guys,

There are a number of facts and physical realities that point to the "Pit Mine" being Waltz's "mine". Two things which are interesting, are the two shallow holes which hint at two caches. The pit mine may be the largest "cache". I have been told that when it was found, it was covered over with logs, dirt and rocks.

If anyone could find the LDM, I would expect it to be the person who showed the mine to those who ended up cleaning it out. It is said to have taken three years, working only in the summer. I believe they probably had some inside "official" help.

What I have written here is based on information I was gifted and facts I have researched on my own. My conclusions are the natural product of that information and research. You can believe it or not. I don't have a dog in the fight, and I'm not writing a book.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sgtfda]

Joe is 100% correct.

 

[Oroblanco]

Guys,

There are a number of facts and physical realities that point to the "Pit Mine" being Waltz's "mine". Two things which are interesting, are the two shallow holes which hint at two caches. The pit mine may be the largest "cache". I have been told that when it was found, it was covered over with logs, dirt and rocks.

If anyone could find the LDM, I would expect it to be the person who showed the mine to those who ended up cleaning it out. It is said to have taken three years, working only in the summer. I believe they probably had some inside "official" help.

What I have written here is based on information I was gifted and facts I have researched on my own. My conclusions are the natural product of that information and research. You can believe it or not. I don't have a dog in the fight, and I'm not writing a book.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Nice post Joe

and Sarge wrote

Joe is 100% correct.

Then why are we here talking about such things?

 

[sgtfda]

The easy part was figuring out who the official is. A paper trail will get you every time.

 

[sgtfda]

Roy because we're chasing the legend of course. Just like all things Dutchman the con goes on and you can always make a buck off a legend. Been going on for years. After all Waltz started it keeping his nurse interested.

 

[cactusjumper]

Frank,

I would be very interested in hearing your conclusions.......In private. Can't help but wonder if they match up with mine.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy because we're chasing the legend of course. Just like all things Dutchman the con goes on and you can always make a buck off a legend. Been going on for years. After all Waltz started it keeping his nurse interested.

OK I get your view, it is found, worked out, all settled, what is left to discuss? We don't usually discuss FOUND mines, hard to get even a one sentence reply if you try it. If it is all settled,...?

Keeping his "nurse" interested? How about saving her cookies when she was about to lose it all, and at that time he was not in ill health by selling a sizable amount of his gold? How does that fit the scenario of keeping a nurse interested? Waltz had already gotten a signed agreement with a neighbor to take care of him in return for his real estate after all. Why should he dip into his own 'savings' of gold ore, just to help her out, when he was not an invalid at that time? Remember he was living in his own home until very near the end of his life, when the famous flood hit and he apparently came down sick.

Up to that point Waltz was farming in a small way, trading eggs with Juiia and apparently enjoying being able to talk German with them. This complete falsehood theory (on the part of Waltz, a story to keep his nurse interested) doesn't make sense to me. But then a lot of things don't make much sense to me. As Mike also pointed out, it is not as if the Waltz story were the singular example for the very same area, the Superstitions, we have several stories and a number of other persons involved which tend to corroborate that SOME kind of a rich mine is up in there somewhere which remains lost.

I won't waste your time, or Cactusjumper's (or my own) trying to "convince" you fellows, as you are clearly already convinced and there really isn't much left to discuss. We could get further talking about plain vanilla prospecting!

To tie this in to the thread - the secret is in the stone itself. And yes that is from me personally, not a quote from any "well respected" Dutch hunter or other widely recognized authority. Yes also, there is more in this statement than just those words.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you have a pleasant evening.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

Roy I knew you would jump on the nurse thing. As all women say. What have you done for me lately.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy I knew you would jump on the nurse thing. As all women say. What have you done for me lately.

No offense intended amigo, in fact I am trying to see it your way! I just can't make it work for me. Now if Waltz's story had nothing prior to his becoming ill and being taken to Julia's home, and then the story turns up, I could easily buy it that it was all just a tale to keep her cooking his meals and changing his bedding.

Good luck to you buddy, didn't mean to come across like it was some troll waiting for a word to pounce on it. I hope you have a great day,
Roy