The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Somero]

I remember taking Spanish way back in the 8th grade and the teacher emphasizing the whole gender thing, I think that stuck with me pretty well over the years. Problem I have had over the years is Spanish spoken in different parts of the world tends to be slightly different depending on the country. I've also found that regionally Mexico has "accents" much like the States, had to laugh when some friends were arguing about how huevo was spelled and pronounced, one was from Chihuahua the other southern Mexico. Something for us "Gringo's" to keep in mind when were screwing up another language by speaking it. no es todo bien

 

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[Hal Croves]

The PSM's despite the bad spelling, have the gender right. Even "EL MAPA" which is an exception to the rule, is right. The Stone Crosses, and the TCS show to be "Gringo" made because of their mistakes in gender. This alone shows that the PSM's were made by a Mexican, and not by Travis.

Homar P. Olivarez

coazon de oro,
Forgive me for jumping in here but your assuming that the spelling mistakes on the stones are not intentional. You also wrote that only a gringo would have made the gender mistakes found on the stone crosses and TCS. This argument seems a bit flawed. A Mexican, familiar with his own language, was able to apply gender rules but not accurate spelling? I just don't see how its possible that some visionary could design and carve the stones maps without thinking about proper spelling. The words that are misspelled are obvious even to a novice. For example HORSE... caballo vs. cobollo. In my mind the mistakes are so obvious that they could only be intentional.

One last thing... do you have any idea of when the Mexican sombrero was first introduced?
Seems to me that if we can pin down a date, a possible age range of the stones can be deduced.

 

[cactusjumper]

coazon de oro,
Forgive me for jumping in here but your assuming that the spelling mistakes on the stones are not intentional. You also wrote that only a gringo would have made the gender mistakes found on the stone crosses and TCS. This argument seems a bit flawed. A Mexican, familiar with his own language, was able to apply gender rules but not accurate spelling? I just don't see how its possible that some visionary could design and carve the stones maps without thinking about proper spelling. The words that are misspelled are obvious even to a novice. For example HORSE... caballo vs. cobollo. In my mind the mistakes are so obvious that they could only be intentional.

One last thing... do you have any idea of when the Mexican sombrero was first introduced?
Seems to me that if we can pin down a date, a possible age range of the stones can be deduced.

Hal,

I doubt an exact date can be established, but the sombrero was first used in the 15th. Century.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I doubt an exact date can be established, but the sombrero was first used in the 15th. Century.

Take care,

Joe

cactusjumper,
I wrote "Mexican" Sombrero. Unless I have missed the boat on this one, the Mexican Sombrero is a more recent invention. The sombrero mejicano or sombrero charro is, I believe, a product of the 19th century. I may be misinformed, but if I am correct, the stone maps could not be older than the mid 1800's. I was hoping to narrow down the date some... have you seen an example that predates the 1800's?

"The most credible hypothesis places the creation of the typical Mexican sombrero between Mexico and the southern United States, where the Mestizo started wearing this very wide-brimmed hat to protect themselves from the heat and sun while working outdoors."
sombrero one name, many hats


View attachment 890154

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[/TD]
[TD="class: productinlistdesc2"] Have a look at the chap in the pointed hat.
Original multiview steel engraving engraved by H. Winkles after G. Heck. 1849
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[coazon de oro]

coazon de oro,
Forgive me for jumping in here but your assuming that the spelling mistakes on the stones are not intentional. You also wrote that only a gringo would have made the gender mistakes found on the stone crosses and TCS. This argument seems a bit flawed. A Mexican, familiar with his own language, was able to apply gender rules but not accurate spelling? I just don't see how its possible that some visionary could design and carve the stones maps without thinking about proper spelling. The words that are misspelled are obvious even to a novice. For example HORSE... caballo vs. cobollo. In my mind the mistakes are so obvious that they could only be intentional.

One last thing... do you have any idea of when the Mexican sombrero was first introduced?
Seems to me that if we can pin down a date, a possible age range of the stones can be deduced.

Howdy Hal,

In my honest opinion the spelling mistakes on the PSM's were not intentional. Illiterates of any race, can speak their native language, yet can't read or write it. In my opinion the PSM's were fashioned by a Mexican miner with some what average writing skills.

In your first sentence for example, your use of the word "your" instead of "you're", a mistake so obvious, was that intentional, I believe not.

In reference to the Stone Crosses and the Treasure Chest Stone, the gender of the Spanish language is where "Gringos" have the most trouble. This alone clearly shows that these stones were not made by Spanish speaking people. Any Mexican can get the gender right because he grows up speaking the language. Any gender problem that he may have, is quickly corrected through out his first years of growing up. Writing was harder to learn back then with little schooling, because not everyone was constantly correcting you.

Once you can get a handle on the above, you can understand that Travis T. could look up the words he used on the TCS, like "escondida", and spell it correctly. "Escondida", does indeed translate to hidden, but so does "Escondido". The word "Dinero", or money is masculine, so "Escondido" should have been used here. He also mixed Spanish with English when he wrote Madrid Spain, instead of Madrid España. This simple observation alone shows that Travis could not have made the PSM's. This however is not the observation, or definite proof that I PMed a choosen few.

The introduction of the Mexican sombrero, and it's present use makes it difficult to use as a means of dating the PSM's in my honest opinion.

Homar P. Olivarez

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

In my honest opinion the spelling mistakes on the PSM's were not intentional. Illiterates of any race, can speak their native language, yet can't read or write it. In my opinion the PSM's were fashioned by a Mexican miner with some what average writing skills.

In your first sentence for example, your use of the word "your" instead of "you're", a mistake so obvious, was that intentional, I believe not.

In reference to the Stone Crosses and the Treasure Chest Stone, the gender of the Spanish language is where "Gringos" have the most trouble. This alone clearly shows that these stones were not made by Spanish speaking people. Any Mexican can get the gender right because he grows up speaking the language. Any gender problem that he may have, is quickly corrected through out his first years of growing up. Writing was harder to learn back then with little schooling, because not everyone was constantly correcting you.

Once you can get a handle on the above, you can understand that Travis T. could look up the words he used on the TCS, like "escondida", and spell it correctly. "Escondida", does indeed translate to hidden, but so does "Escondido". The word "Dinero", or money is masculine, so "Escondido" should have been used here. He also mixed Spanish with English when he wrote Madrid Spain, instead of Madrid España. This simple observation alone shows that Travis could not have made the PSM's. This however is not the observation, or definite proof that I PMed a choosen few.

The introduction of the Mexican sombrero, and it's present use makes it difficult to use as a means of dating the PSM's in my honest opinion.

Homar P. Olivarez

coazon de oro,
My mistake was obvious, but that can be attributed to laziness and poor writing/typing skills. But we are writing in volume here and most posts are peppered with mistakes of one type or another. This is confirmed in your second to last sentence with the word "choosen" and "some what" in the first. Obviously you have a brilliant mind and choose your words carefully, but mistakes do happen when writing at length.

One types as fast as one can hoping to get the idea posted before the TN system logs the writer out. I have not been able to get around this on my MAC. But in truth, I am a sucky speller and writing for me feels... unnatural. To be expected from a visual thinker. I am also "spell-check's" best customer.

I will say that I have spent some time carving, even signing other artists names to work that I have done for them, and always, what was carved (inscribed) was proofed and reproofed. The stones being carved by a miner is something to think about, however if I am understanding you correctly, the work was done with little or no oversight from someone more educated than your miner.

How is that possible? Would a miner have been skilled or educated enough to conceptualize the maps on his/her own, or were they just a means or tool of a more educated mind. You were kind enough to share some of your theory with me and I appreciate that, but I can not make the connection... to the stones. I don't doubt that Travis carved the Treasure Chest Stone. I would also like to believe that the Stone Crosses were found, just as the discoverer stated... honestly I have not spent much time studying them due to the lack of access and clear photographs. But the Stone Map Cipher, and together they do compose a cipher, must be modern. This is my conclusion based on their relationship to an aerial photograph of the location that I have shared. It is however just an opinion... for now.

Yes, dating the sombrero's introduction into Mexican culture is no easy task, but I have not seen one that predates the mid 1800's.

One last question... we are told (by DA) that the stones are from a source that is some distance north of the Superstitions. Why wouldn't your miner use a local material?

Thank you again.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

your and you're is a common mistake I make...I get in rush and just make that mistake over and over an over...even though I do know better...duh.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

"I" of all people should not get into this conversation, but intent actually governs which word to use as most can be used ambiguously and correctly depending upon the subject conversation line which in turn depending depends upon intent.

Example, most translations that I have seen tend to translate literally word for word instead of obvious intent.

At a period in time when a simple "X" was legal for many contracts, -------------


Ah forget it, and drink your coffee before it gets cold.

Don Jose de La Mancha ( el undisputed king of typos )

 

[coazon de oro]

coazon de oro,
My mistake was obvious, but that can be attributed to laziness and poor writing/typing skills. But we are writing in volume here and most posts are peppered with mistakes of one type or another. This is confirmed in your second to last sentence with the word "choosen" and "some what" in the first. Obviously you have a brilliant mind and choose your words carefully, but mistakes do happen when writing at length.

One types as fast as one can hoping to get the idea posted before the TN system logs the writer out. I have not been able to get around this on my MAC. But in truth, I am a sucky speller and writing for me feels... unnatural. To be expected from a visual thinker. I am also "spell-check's" best customer.

I will say that I have spent some time carving, even signing other artists names to work that I have done for them, and always, what was carved (inscribed) was proofed and reproofed. The stones being carved by a miner is something to think about, however if I am understanding you correctly, the work was done with little or no oversight from someone more educated than your miner.

How is that possible? Would a miner have been skilled or educated enough to conceptualize the maps on his/her own, or were they just a means or tool of a more educated mind. You were kind enough to share some of your theory with me and I appreciate that, but I can not make the connection... to the stones. I don't doubt that Travis carved the Treasure Chest Stone. I would also like to believe that the Stone Crosses were found, just as the discoverer stated... honestly I have not spent much time studying them due to the lack of access and clear photographs. But the Stone Map Cipher, and together they do compose a cipher, must be modern. This is my conclusion based on their relationship to an aerial photograph of the location that I have shared. It is however just an opinion... for now.

Yes, dating the sombrero's introduction into Mexican culture is no easy task, but I have not seen one that predates the mid 1800's.

One last question... we are told (by DA) that the stones are from a source that is some distance north of the Superstitions. Why wouldn't your miner use a local material?

Thank you again.

Howdy Hal,

Glad you found my mistakes which were not intentional. This just solidifies the fact that we are all capable of making mistakes. Even if we proof read we tend to miss them sometimes, this is why it is best for someone else to do the proof reading. Thanks to "spell-check", I don't have to bother my wife so much. In the Superstitions, the creator of the PSM's did not have the luxury of "spell-check". He could have been a common miner, or a highly educated man, everyone is capable of making mistakes. Look at Einstein, he had problems with simple math. I still believe it was a Mexican miner, a Peralta.

Even though some think that at least two persons may have carved the stones, I believe it could have just been one. When I hand write a letter, I usually begin by doing my best, because my handwriting is not that nice. If the letter is long, I end up with my normal sloppy writing. If you were to compare the start of the letter with the ending, you would think that two persons wrote the letter.

There are many who believe the stones are a cipher, I won't try to change your thoughts on this, but I believe they are just a map.

It is my opinion that the PSM's were made with stones found close to the mine. It would be stupid to bring stone from elsewhere when the Superstitions are covered with stone. You have to remember that the person from DA who said that the stones were not from the Superstitions, may have not studied the original PSM's. Even if he did study the originals, this person has not covered all of the Superstitions on foot to know all the different types of stone in has.

I had almost finished a reply earlier today, but lost it. I don't know the difference from my computer, and your Mac, but one of my sons told me to right click and copy before trying to post a long message. This way if it does not go through, and you have to log in again, you can just paste it.

Homar

 

[roadrunner]

This is what I do,and I heard of some others doing it.
Write your post in notepad first.Then you can spell check and re-arrange,do what ever you want, and if you are timed out,no matter what site or where you are,including a shaky hot spot,you wont lose any of your work.
As for spelling, i am just to lazy to hit the shift key, use caps some times,ect. including spell check.

 

[markmar]

Don't need to be very skilled to see the differences of the handwriting between the PSM and TCS . Is sure how have different carvers .
I agree with Homar how the PSM are carved by a Peralta .

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I had the opportunity to view the "original stones' at the mining museum in apache junction this weekend...

I do believe I agree with sarge...fakes...nonsense...

 

[Somero]

I had the opportunity to view the "original stones' at the mining museum in apache junction this weekend...

I do believe I agree with sarge...fakes...nonsense...

The everlasting quandary................why make Stone Maps?

 

[gollum]

Hey All,

I got to handle them close up and examine them under different types of lighting, and I don't believe they are hoaxes.

One word ....... "Jesuit" explains a lot.

Coazon,

If the PSM are Jesuit, as I believe they are, the spelling errors are likely due to the fact that they were likely carved by German Jesuits (or at least non-Mexican Jesuits). A German Jesuit would have learned Spanish by listening. In other words....phonetically. I have many hispanic friends, and listening to them, I hear "coason, coazon, and even corazon" "cabollo and caballo". If I learned Spanish phonetically, I would likely make many spelling errors.

Somero,

Again, if they are of Jesuit origin, then maps on stone are the only logical answer. Imagine it is 1766. You are Jesuit and learn that members of your Order were arrested in Spain for fomenting a rebellion. You may or may not also know that the King has sent an envoy to watch your Order in the New World and report on its activities. You know that your Order was arrested and removed from all Portuguese Lands around the world in 1759. The same for all French Lands in 1764, and it was just a matter of time before the same thing happened in all Spanish Lands.

Based on what happened in the previous arrests, everyone in your Order will be rounded up at one time. Everything that had belonged to your Order is now property of the Crown. That means that your wealth now belongs to the King. When you are arrested, you will be allowed to carry nothing but the clothes on your back, your breviary, and a copy of Thomas A Kempis' "An Imitation of Christ". So now you have a short time in which to hide the wealth of your Order. (IMO) Each rectorate was charged with hiding the wealth of that rectorate (that's why I believe there are so many Jesuit Treasure Stories). So, for the sake of argument, lets say that your rectorate hides its wealth in a well hidden natural cave on Black Top Butte. Your wealth is safe from those nasty Spaniards.

Now you have another problem. How long will your Order be suppressed? How many years will it be before you can come back and reclaim your wealth? Twenty years? One hundred and twenty years? Ever? You will be strip searched by the Spanish when arrested, so you can't risk taking any maps with you. You know the Spanish will search every Mission, Church, Rectory, Cabecera, and Colegio for the wealth they all know your Order has! Where could you safely hide a map? For that matter, if you drew the map on vellum, it could be destroyed by rats, fire, water, or just time (depending on how many years before you could come back). Those are now your two biggest concerns; 1. What material do you make the map from? 2. Where do you hide it? If you make the map from stone, it will last as long as the stone lasts, and if it took your Order 250 years to return, the maps would still be there. Now you have to figure a place to hide them that even the Spanish won't look into. Two of the stones give us a clue as to where that place may be!

A "CROSS" and the word "DON". Take a look below to see what the two map stones may have looked like in the floor of a church! Even the greediest soldier would never tear up the tomb of a wealthy Mexican!

Best - Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

Hey All,

I got to handle them close up and examine them under different types of lighting, and I don't believe they are hoaxes.

One word ....... "Jesuit" explains a lot.

Coazon,

If the PSM are Jesuit, as I believe they are, the spelling errors are likely due to the fact that they were likely carved by German Jesuits (or at least non-Mexican Jesuits). A German Jesuit would have learned Spanish by listening. In other words....phonetically. I have many hispanic friends, and listening to them, I hear "coason, coazon, and even corazon" "cabollo and caballo". If I learned Spanish phonetically, I would likely make many spelling errors.

gollum,
While you did not address this to me I would like to comment on the above quote. I once thought that the stones were the orphaned children of the order but no longer.

Anyway, I wanted to comment on your logic. Language skills were critical for any Jesuit missionary sailing off to the four corners of the world. Learning the regional language on the fly or phonetically was not (I believe) how it was done... unless they were learning a new, undocumented language. For example... after he was given permission to travel to the New World, Father Kino first sailed with 18 other Jesuits to Seville and then to Cádiz where he waited two years for passage to the New World. There, he would have had time to learn & perfect the Spanish language. This was a typical experience for most Jesuit missionaries and linguistics were a absolutely a prerequisite. We need to remember that these were exceptionally intelligent men dedicated to communicating/spreading their doctrine.

So, a simple spelling error like "cobollo" (if not intentional) only demonstrates a level of ignorance and or lack of education. I am no fan of the order, (Kino being the exception) however your argument undermines the monumental effort these men made to assimilate into local culture. Some were obviously more successful than others, but I honestly doubt that even the most language-challenged Jesuit would have made the mistakes we find on the stones. BUT, if you are correct and someone in the order did indeed carve the stones, the spelling mistakes MUST be intentional.

Thank you for sharing that photograph!

 

[gollum]

First, I should say that picture is a creation in Photoshop. What I think the floor of the Arizpe Mission might have looked like.

While they undoubtedly learned Latin grammatically, German Jesuits may have learned Spanish phonetically. They ABSOLUTELY learned the Indian dialects from where they were assigned phonetically.

Mike

 

[coazon de oro]

Coazon,

If the PSM are Jesuit, as I believe they are, the spelling errors are likely due to the fact that they were likely carved by German Jesuits (or at least non-Mexican Jesuits). A German Jesuit would have learned Spanish by listening. In other words....phonetically. I have many hispanic friends, and listening to them, I hear "coason, coazon, and even corazon" "cabollo and caballo". If I learned Spanish phonetically, I would likely make many spelling errors.

Best - Mike

Howdy Mike,

I know I am not very good when it comes to finding the right words trying to explain things, but you seem to be real good at understanding. You make a very good point. Anyone learning Spanish phonetically could make spelling mistakes, yet get the gender right.

I like the way you laid out the stones in that imaginary picture, but what makes you believe they came from the mission in Arispe?

Homar

 

[gollum]

Hey Homar,

First, through no small amount of research by Azmula, he states that the stone maps were originally set in the floor of the Arizpe Mission. He wrote a very good article on how he came to that conclusion. It was in the SMHS Journal. He also concludes (and I agree mostly) that the Horse/Priest Stone is a fake.

Another, and more roundabout, relationship was through the Jesuit Mission Priest that was assigned to Arizpe. Father Carlos Roxas (Rojas) SJ. This is the self same Father Roxas SJ that hid a silver bell from Phoenix. While officially stationed at Arizpe, Father Roxas was elected Visitor General twice. The second time in 1763-1764 (the perfect time to start to prep for hiding loot). Father Roxas extensively traveled through the area of the Gila, Colorado, and Salt Rivers. He even wrote a letter to the Governor stating the need for a mission in that area due to the number of Indians. He was definitely in the area.

So, (IMHO)We have Father Roxas as the man in charge of hiding Jesuit Loot in Northern Pimeria Alta. Since his home base was Arizpe, what better place to hide the maps to the treasure he hid. Then, at some point in time, in replacing the old floor of the Church/Mission, the two map stones and the heart insert are found. Somehow they make their way to Travis Tumlinson.

Hope that helps - Mike

 

[sgtfda]

Mike how do you explain the tool marks on the Map stones. Copies?

 

[markmar]

Hi Mike

IMO , the priest / horse stone isn't fake . I agree with you how the stones could be from a grave plaque ( because the same thickness ) , but not from a mission floor . In the missions were allowed to buried only fathers and never a Don . This don't exclude a Don to have been a Jesuit . So , maybe the author of the stone maps , took the stones from a grave plaque and made the maps . He took intentionally the Cross and the Don stones , to give a direction in the map ( the Cross above the Don ) .
Just some thoughts .