The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

Do you think the Peralta stone maps are genuine, or fake?

  • They are genuine maps to the Lost Dutchman mine

    Votes: 12 9.9%

  • They are genuine maps to some lost mine, not necessarily the Dutchman

    Votes: 49 40.5%

  • They are fakes, created with the intention to fool

    Votes: 60 49.6%
  • Total voters
    121
Marius mi compadre, in those times it was common for one to pay hard cash and be buried inside of the mission, church, or whatever. As long as you kept up the payments - rent - you remained buried, if not, you were displaced by one that was willing and able to pay.

The Altar space was reserved for members of the Society.

Many early missions - Capillas - were up ended looking for any valuables that might have been buried with the deceased.

So Gully's explanation is as good as I have heard so far, but for the Tumly's to find it, and where they supposedly did, means that the maps wern't good enough to find the target and were abandoned on the return trip., similar to the Tayopa story.

Why that particular spot ?? Things were far different 3-400 years ago, who knows.

Personally I still cling desperately to the Baron of Ariz having a finger in the pie. More in line with the Spanglish of the times.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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gollum said:
Hey Homar,

First, through no small amount of research by Azmula, he states that the stone maps were originally set in the floor of the Arizpe Mission. He wrote a very good article on how he came to that conclusion. It was in the SMHS Journal. He also concludes (and I agree mostly) that the Horse/Priest Stone is a fake.

Another, and more roundabout, relationship was through the Jesuit Mission Priest that was assigned to Arizpe. Father Carlos Roxas (Rojas) SJ. This is the self same Father Roxas SJ that hid a silver bell from Phoenix. While officially stationed at Arizpe, Father Roxas was elected Visitor General twice. The second time in 1763-1764 (the perfect time to start to prep for hiding loot). Father Roxas extensively traveled through the area of the Gila, Colorado, and Salt Rivers. He even wrote a letter to the Governor stating the need for a mission in that area due to the number of Indians. He was definitely in the area.

So, (IMHO)We have Father Roxas as the man in charge of hiding Jesuit Loot in Northern Pimeria Alta. Since his home base was Arizpe, what better place to hide the maps to the treasure he hid. Then, at some point in time, in replacing the old floor of the Church/Mission, the two map stones and the heart insert are found. Somehow they make their way to Travis Tumlinson.

Hope that helps - Mike
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Howdy Mike,

I have never seen how Azmula came to his conclusion, so I can't debate that part of your belief on the PSM's.

It does however raise a question on your stand. First you tell me that if the PSM's are Jesuit as you believe they are, the bad spelling could be from a German Jesuit. The only stone with writing and bad spelling on it is the Horse/Priest stone. Then you tell me that you are in agreement with Azmula, stating that you believe the Horse/Priest stone is a fake. How can you believe the H/P stone is Jesuit made, and fake at he same time?

Homar
 

sgtfda said:
Mike how do you explain the tool marks on the Map stones. Copies?
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Which tool marks would that be? I was allowed to examine them all before the pic day event at the Museum back in 2010. I examined them all under black light, I was allowed to use a digital microscope to examine the grooves. I used white LED Light from different angles to bring out anything that may have difficult to see.

The marks on the stone maps weren't chiseled. They were heavily scratched into the surface. The bottom of the grooves are not all of uniform depth (like you would expect for a machine cut or router). There are several places where you can see whatever was being used to engrave the stone maps came out of the groove and scarred the surface. This was mostly around sharp corners or curves. I will post some examples. I can tell you that there were NO marks on the stone maps that couldn't have been made by hand tools. A big example would be the holes. Not the ones IN grooves, but holes all by themselves. A close look into the holes reveals a slight dimple in the center of the bottom. If you are going to make a hole with a hand drill, you don't start out with a bit the size of the hole. You use a much smaller bit to drill a pilot hole. When you get the pilot hole to the depth you want, you then go bigger. It takes much less time to stairstep a hole in rock.

Like I said before, there is nothing on any of the stone maps that HAD to have been made by modern equipment, but to be intellectually hones, I have to admit that a person could not have used hand tools to make them in modern times. I just don't believe that was the case.

Best - Mike

one more thing ............. what I originally thought were mistakes where the engraving tool came out of the groove may also show trails, and NOT be a mistake!
linejumps1.jpgdrillhole1.jpgHorseBlacklight_sm.jpgImage13.jpg
 

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Hey Homar,

Notice how I hedged my opinion with the phrase "I agree mostly". First, we have Travis Tumlinson's relatives saying they watched Travis carving a stone (they even say that it was a light colored stone). If you go back and reread Richard Peck's Investigator's interview with Travis' Friend, you will see that he only saw the two map stones and the heart. He stated he never saw the H/P Stone. Maybe Travis was keeping it a secret, or maybe he knew it was worthless and had no reason to bring it out. But, I will always remember his friend saying that Travis would bring out the stone maps. They would talk about them, and Travis would always stick his finger in the big hole on the lower map saying "If I could only figure out where that is, I would be a millionaire!"

For the same reasons I can't say the map stones and heart are 100% authentic are the same reasons I can't say the H/P Stone is a 100% fake. I am only giving a possibility as to why (if it is authentic) those words may be misspelled. I examined the H/P Stone the same as the others. I didn't find any tiny shards of metal in the grooves or 100% certain machine marks. I personally believe the two map stones and the heart stone are authentic Jesuit Treasure Maps. The H/P Stone may or may not be.

Best - Mike
 

gollum said:
Hey Homar,

Notice how I hedged my opinion with the phrase "I agree mostly". First, we have Travis Tumlinson's relatives saying they watched Travis carving a stone (they even say that it was a light colored stone). If you go back and reread Richard Peck's Investigator's interview with Travis' Friend, you will see that he only saw the two map stones and the heart. He stated he never saw the H/P Stone. Maybe Travis was keeping it a secret, or maybe he knew it was worthless and had no reason to bring it out. But, I will always remember his friend saying that Travis would bring out the stone maps. They would talk about them, and Travis would always stick his finger in the big hole on the lower map saying "If I could only figure out where that is, I would be a millionaire!"

For the same reasons I can't say the map stones and heart are 100% authentic are the same reasons I can't say the H/P Stone is a 100% fake. I am only giving a possibility as to why (if it is authentic) those words may be misspelled. I examined the H/P Stone the same as the others. I didn't find any tiny shards of metal in the grooves or 100% certain machine marks. I personally believe the two map stones and the heart stone are authentic Jesuit Treasure Maps. The H/P Stone may or may not be.

Best - Mike
Click to expand...


Howdy Mike,

Thanks for pointing that out, I wouldn't have questioned you if I had reread your post. Happens to me every now, and then. It's good to know where others stand, and why when viewing their input on certain topics.

In my own honest opinion, Travis Tumlinson's family did see him carving a stone, which was the Treasure Chest Stone. They may have seen him cleaning the groves on the Horse/Priest stone.

I don't believe he wanted to show the Horse/Priest stone to his friend when they looked at the map stones, for the same reason he taped over several symbols for the photo. He probably though someone else could figure it out, and beat him to the treasure.

In my opinion it is the same situation as with the Holmes missing directions, where he was hoping someone would find the rock house, then he could solve the rest.

Homar
 

I read once that travis gave the stones to his brother for a while.
How do we know his brother gave them back. The original ones. If Travis brother made poor copies of the originals, he could have left out certain details on purpose. That would explain the tool marks.
 

Could the word don. Refer to a large trail. Maybe the largest and most notable in the area. What do you guys think
 

Don Jose

I believe the stones weren't in a mission floor . If we supposed how the stones maps were in a mission floor , how they knew where leads and what direction to go , without the priest/ horse stone map ? You believe how the horse/priest stone map could be in a mission floor ?
 

sgtfda said:
Wayne it was someone else
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I didn't mean to suggest it was the same person who shared the drawing, Frank. Although it may have seemed so.
Only that additional information is slowly being brought into the mix. Some of which may yield answers to the many questions which, at least for myself, remain.

"somehiker,
I have never seen that image before. Will you tell what it is and where to find it?
Thanks! "

Hal:
It is a small section of a drawing which was recently posted elsewhere, then removed shortly after by the person who posted it.
I was told it was one of three such drawings by the person who now owns them, and that the author was a search partner of Travis Tumlinson.
Also that the drawings post dated the publication of the Stones in Life Magazine.
I printed a copy, which I had with me for reference during my most recent visits to my area of interest. So far, despite only having three days to spend on it, I have already found it to be of some value to my own search. It is not mine to share, at least in it's entirety. I will leave it to the present owner to share, if he should see fit.
 

somehiker said:
Hal:
It is a small section of a drawing which was recently posted elsewhere, then removed shortly after by the person who posted it.
I was told it was one of three such drawings by the person who now owns them, and that the author was a search partner of Travis Tumlinson.
Also that the drawings post dated the publication of the Stones in Life Magazine.
I printed a copy, which I had with me for reference during my most recent visits to my area of interest. So far, despite only having three days to spend on it, I have already found it to be of some value to my own search. It is not mine to share, at least in it's entirety. I will leave it to the present owner to share, if he should see fit.
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Wayne.....The map is still posted on the same site you found it! just looked at it, has all the same discussions about it that was posted.
 

Just checked.....you are both correct.
:angel3:

BTW: Since this is on a line between those two features, I'll have to go back for a more thorough inspection.

square opening.jpg

Especially since there is an "X" above and to the right

View attachment square opening with X.bmp

You have seen it Tim. And you know how we can go up and to the right to get to it, just as the bent arrow shows.
These stones are tricky....but fun to work with !
 

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Scuse me Hiker, but while you are drinking yer sock coffee, can you post / mark the X's in the photo ?? I can't see anything but natural surface weather fracturing ad minor faulting?? Gracious.

Do Jose de La Mancha
 

Tim I knew if I sent that map to Wayne you guys would end up hanging off that cliff again.
Wayne stay out of that hole. It a place Canadians go an never come out.
I can't help but wonder what did the map maker see on that Texas trip so many years ago.
 

LC

Straight up and down like a rifle scope can be used as 4 or mine covered, But half cocked like this would mean on proper trail, mountain location or treasure nearby look for last sign, The other one is a slight variation of mine with tunnels and hole with buried treasure.

Wrmickel1
 

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