The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[somehiker]

Tim I knew if I sent that map to Wayne you guys would end up hanging off that cliff again.
Wayne stay out of that hole. It a place Canadians go an never come out.
I can't help but wonder what did the map maker see on that Texas trip so many years ago.

You know how much I like climbing up or dangling over them cliffs. But this hole is at the base of one.
It looks a little different than when I first spotted it though. Originally had a bunch of rocks blocking it up.
Bob Garmin, who made that map, also had this translated waybill ....



Way too much to fit in THAT hole, but I suspect is what the Tumlinsons were looking for.

View attachment waybills.bmp

 

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[somehiker]

Scuse me Hiker, but while you are drinking yer sock coffee, can you post / mark the X's in the photo ?? I can't see anything but natural surface weather fracturing ad minor faulting?? Gracious.

Do Jose de La Mancha

Do Jose:
Ain't nothin "carved in granite" out there. Not much around anyway, even if you wanted to.
Knowing that most, like yourself, will never be able to differentiate what is man made, but eroded by nature, and what is entirely natural, is why I feel safe in posting these things. Also why it's so lonely out where I spend most of my days.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Hiker: More coffee? I certainly need some, 0400 here You posted -->Knowing that most, like yourself, will never be able to differentiate what is man made, but eroded by nature, and what is entirely natural, is
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting, always wiling to learn, so please indicate on your photo which is which. such as an eroded cross. Not snooping but just learning.

Side thingie, where would they get, or need 250,000 gold coins ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Well,

I just too another good look at the picture taken right after the stones were found when they were stacked on the bumper. In that picture it is the Tobias Cross (not an X in a circle), and the math equation (not the pit mine symbol).

Wayne,

I believe that square hole you are looking at is actually the Triangle with a slash from the Upper Map Stone.

Best - Mike

 

[gollum]

Don Jose

I believe the stones weren't in a mission floor . If we supposed how the stones maps were in a mission floor , how they knew where leads and what direction to go , without the priest/ horse stone map ? You believe how the horse/priest stone map could be in a mission floor ?

Marius,

I believe that more than likely, the H/P Stone is a modern creation. It is not in the picture with the other stones on the bumper of the car. Travis T's friend said he never saw the H/P Stone (only the two maps and the heart). The H/P Stone does not look like it was carved by the same person that carved the other three stones.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Good to see the rest of you finally catching up to me........

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[TD="align: center"]Joe Ribaudo [/TD]
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[TD="class: gensmall, width: 100%"] Post subject: Ruth Death
Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2002 8:47 pm
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Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Posts: 5192 [/TD]
[TD]

It's always interesting that we follow second, third and worse, stories as if they were real evidence of what happened. Because we have nothing of substance we tend to make a simple solution into a maze. I agree Ruth did not walk out of West Boulder Canyon. It seems his own physical condition is really the best indication of where he last walked. Do you have a hunch of your own as to what happened? Are you an armchair Dutch hunter or do you get into the mountains? Do you have an area that you stick to or check out the whole range. My Uncle, Chuck Ribaudo, had a claim on Black Top. He was a partner of Lake Erie Schafer, as well as the other signers on the Fish Map. Prior to hooking up with them, Chuck had worked out the location of his claim using only the Storm information. that was around fourty years ago. My mothers maiden name was Stoker, as in Obie Stoker who was her uncle. He and his wife Olive claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman before WW2. His claim was at Second Water. It was called the Question Mark Mine. As you can see I have the LDM in my blood, both sides of my family and neither Chuck or Obie knew of the other until around 25-30 years ago. I worked out the Stone Maps conclusion a number of years ago. Without a doubt some of it is a hoax. My best guess would be Chuck Aylor for the horse map. As usual it's possible some of the information is legit. I don't put any trust in the priest map either. As for the trail maps, I will know the answer to that soon. I only trust the clues I know to be reliable. They exist but most people would rather belive the tall tales that are so plentiful. As I read the Forum it's obvious that most of the members are into the writers versions. Not one of the authors has found the mine/cache and few of the members are searching fresh ground. [TD="class: gensmall, align: right"] Good luck, Joe

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[markmar]

Mike

The stones on the bumber were of the second trip to the site . The P/H stone was at his home from the first trip . Now , if Travis friend didn't saw the P/H stone , don't mean how Travis hadn't the stone .
I believe the stones trail map without the P/H stone don't make sense .How you know how the line with the dots is a trail and is not a necklace with beads , without the word " bereda " ?
The P/H stone was carved by the same author with the stones trail map . Look to the letter " R " in the trail map . Is the same with the " R " in the P/H stone . In the word " RIO " shows better . If you look better to the stones , you will find more similarities in dots and numbers .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Vast, I'll buy that one as man made,it practically jumps out and bites you . no problem gracias, but in Riders photo of the square hole I fail to see it.

Side thing, what is that circular thingie that the upper end of the bar points to ---on top of the photo.
As for the lower end with the point ?? goes off of the lower left end of the photo.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike

The stones on the bumber were of the second trip to the site . The P/H stone was at his home from the first trip . Now , if Travis friend didn't saw the P/H stone , don't mean how Travis hadn't the stone .
I believe the stones trail map without the P/H stone don't make sense .How you know how the line with the dots is a trail and is not a necklace with beads , without the word " bereda " ?
The P/H stone was carved by the same author with the stones trail map . Look to the letter " R " in the trail map . Is the same with the " R " in the P/H stone . In the word " RIO " shows better . If you look better to the stones , you will find more similarities in dots and numbers .

Marius,

How do you know this? For the second highlighted statement, because they follow the terrain......exactly.






Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Vast, I'll buy that one as man made,it practically jumps out and bites you . no problem gracias, but in Riders photo of the square hole I fail to see it.

Side thing, what is that circular thingie that the upper end of the bar points to ---on top of the photo.
As for the lower end with the point ?? goes off of the lower left end of the photo.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

There are "circular thingie(s)" all over that rock.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Here is a close up of One Cross in waynes area that is protected from the elements...with a pointer!
View attachment 894714View attachment 894715

Even I can see that one . Seriously though, I have a difficult time seeing most of the things people post photos of here that they consider to be "markers." Now and then one pops up that strikes me, and this one is obviously one of those. Good job finding that one Wayne/Vastterrain!! I'd say unless someone decided as a "prank" in the last 50 years or so to chisel that into the rock, you're onto something interesting to say the least!

It was good to meet you at the Rendezvous!

Paul

 

[vastterrain]

Vast, I'll buy that one as man made,it practically jumps out and bites you . no problem gracias, but in Riders photo of the square hole I fail to see it.

Side thing, what is that circular thingie that the upper end of the bar points to ---on top of the photo.
As for the lower end with the point ?? goes off of the lower left end of the photo.


Don Jose de La Mancha

Everything else on that overhang looks to be a natural volcanic mess....My "line tool" just happens to start with an arrow at one end.



Paul - Good to finally meet you as well. Wayne found that cross some time ago...and was generous enough to show it to me.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

ok...if finding the dutchman depends upon these stones...or cryptic carvings on rocks in the mountains...no wonder no one can find it...

that cross appears to have been a recent event...the sides are too square, the oxidation is not current with 200 year old exposure to the elements...imo

 

[cactusjumper]

ok...if finding the dutchman depends upon these stones...or cryptic carvings on rocks in the mountains...no wonder no one can find it...

that cross appears to have been a recent event...the sides are too square, the oxidation is not current with 200 year old exposure to the elements...imo

Donald,

My unqualified opinion/conclusion.......exactly.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Marius,

Doesn't matter whether it was his first or second trip to Az. When he had the stone maps out with his friend, it was the early to mid 1950s (not 1949). There are many stories as to how Travis came across the stone maps. Before getting too hung up on one, I suggest you do a little search and look at previous threads. We have hashed this all out before (several times). New voices to this discussion rarely take the time to see what came before.

Here is a link to another forum where this topic was beaten to death:

Lost Dutchman Gold Mine - Arizona Superstition Mountain Wilderness - Gold Mining ? View topic - The Stone Maps

Here is one from this forum:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/23266-peralta-stones.html

That should give you reading material for awhile. See, in the beginning (eight years ago), I believed as you do. The more you learn, the more you change (if you're smart). LOL

Like I said, I think the H/P Stone is a modern creation of Travis Tumlinson. THAT is why there are some similar symboligy.

Vastterrain,

Those crosses are definitely a modern creation.

Best - Mike

 

[markmar]

Mike

I don't care how Travis came across the stone maps . For me the matter is if the stone tablets are fake or not and where leads .
If you believe how the stones trail map are authentics , after my arguments , proved how the P/H tablet is authentic .When exist proofs , is not shame to change opinions .

 

[vastterrain]

Seems like a few here can date carvings just by looking at pictures? I for one am very impressed!!!

guess this Matate and Mano,food , pottery found just yards away are just all modern creation! Youz guyz are brilliant....

 

[gollum]

Marius,

I think that the two trail maps and the heart insert are authentic. Everything else is questionable.

Vastterrain,

I don't know if we met at the Rendezvous or not, but it isn't a question of DATING your cross. There are several of us that have enough experience looking at things carved in the field, to say with a degree of certainty whether something is period or modern. I couldn't tell you whether it is one year old or twenty years old. I can just say with a good degree certainty that it was not carved in the 18th century. There is a certain amount of weathering that occurs on the exposed surface of rock. The edges will lose their sharpness, and if you look on the inside of the grooves, when an engraving is fresh, the chisel forces some of the rock down into itself making it appear smoother and lighter colored (like your cross).

I can show you places in Anza-Borrego Desert where there are tons of potsherds laying on the ground next to an empty pack of cigarettes. I know the potsherds are 800-1000 years old, that doesn't mean the cigarette pack is too. I say this because everybody here that has been doing this for more than a week, knows that since 1892, MANY people have added their own pictographs, petroglyphs, and monuments, as well as tearing down old monuments, all to throw of modern Dutch Hunters.

It has nothing to do with you personally. Some of us just call it like it is. If you continue being a rude smarta$$, I will tell you what you can do with that corncob!

Best - Mike

 

[Springfield]

ok...if finding the dutchman depends upon these stones...or cryptic carvings on rocks in the mountains...no wonder no one can find it...

that cross appears to have been a recent event...the sides are too square, the oxidation is not current with 200 year old exposure to the elements...imo

At first glance, I agreed with this statement, but when looking a little closer at the Superstition cross, I'm not as sure. For comparison, below is a carved cross with similar adjacent hash marks said to be ~450 years old. Of course the rock type, angle of exposure, etc. may vary from the Superstition carving, but both exhibit an eroded rounding of the cut lines and fairly clean exposed surfaces. I'd guess the Superstition carving has some significant age to it, but how much - hard to say.

 

[gollum]

Springy,

Your picture just proved our point. Look at the edges of your cross (rounded and worn). Now look at the inside of the grooves (same color and granularity as the surrounding rock).

I know what tons of markers and symbols look like. I could walk into the mountains with a small sledge and couple of chisels, and have people running in circles for years! I choose not to do that kind of crap.

Vastterrain,

Like I said, we are only offering our opinions based on what we have learned in the years we have been doing this. If you choose not to take our advice, then FINE! Do your research and go your own way. No need to get mad at some of us for giving our opinions if they don't agree with what you theorize.

Best - Mike