The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[the blindbowman]

yes i know very well what picture simbolics are ... lol i didnt countfront that in your frist reply Cj because of the idea that you would even think i didnt know ...lol

and yes each picture had a open flow of path that could be desided by the speaker and the ear , thus each could speak of what they knew of the language and yet often have a somewhat sound idea to relate to each other by some were spoken yet most records were pictrographs, there is one real good reason , why i related to the nahuatl and the Aztec , what if i am right . what if cutting the hearts out of their sacrifices had nothing to do at all with the sun . what if there was in fact a holly place that they warshiped far more than we knew ...cutting the hearts out for sacrifice to a heart of there holly place makes sense to me ...what if the heart i have found is the real holly place the apache stated it was in the heart of the mts. yet befor the apache here we see tribes secrificeing hearts to a god above . holding the hearts high up as to give them to the heavens , what if the heavens and their gods were not as far up as we were lead to beleave .. what if in fact i have found this hollest of holly places ... this can very well explan why we cant make any to very little conection between the stones and maps and anything beyond the 1700,s other than the LDM part of the legend it self . what if this legend started hunderds of years earlyer .. say the late 1400,s or early 1500,s...


we all agree montezume legend is cut and dry yet few had any idea where it took place if it did take place .. this could explan far more than it could disprove ...


i told you that i had found 4 pictrographs in the aera near the tunnle and the rock house . yet both are in the heart of the mt,s . and yes i can prove this when the time is right ...


what pinkley states is almost a dirrect discription of what i have been finding in this area as of yet ... i found ruins of far older tribe ,i beleave most were anaiza yet some are far older even older than aztec ...if i was to guess as to their true age ....

what if we set aside the facts for a secound and look at the main idea . be it wild or not . just for a secound . here is montezuma 2 he as a chiff has known the location of this heart and holly place a cave far to the north where any of the tribe would be mist if they went to this place . yet so holly no one would go there . even its name caused fear for that was what it was called . those that did go there paid the price , the chiffs would cut their hearts out to scare the others from going their . how long do we see the hearts of people being cut free in the pictrographs in Aztec history thats how old i beleave this holly place is ....

if the legend has it the holly place was surounded by water than how long has it been that way in this aera ,....?

what if we are in fact looking at the right place now ...almost all sign would have been washed away by times toll yet the fact would remain there . and if i am right a treasure beyond mankinds desires .. a place so holly even chiffs would kill to protect it . they cast the hearts and spirits of those that were scrificed to the heart of their holly place not the sun gods .. we were so fooled it makes me thing dum asses ...

all this time i have been trying to relate data to the 1700,s because of the misleeding dates of the events yet those event happed far after the holly place was allread sealed and protected .. anyone trying to reopen it payed with their life....

you can make fun of me all you want , but if i am right . you may not get the chance to laugh for long ...

i beleave in the path of covering their holly place they killed anyone near the holly cave and thus killing people that had nothing to do with the legends and starting other legends caught up in their own ...

for one legend to trap so many thus only to protect a vast wealth of their chruch or holly place ... how much blood ran down those stones of scrifices before i researched what i saw in 1979 .. how many will still pay a price for even dareing to hunt for these legends ...

do we stop the deaths and show the world what we have found . or do we let it go on for years to come ...?

what is a cross a sign of faith . there are many signs of faith in the aera . some trible some spainish . some jesuit and and some of modern day hunters ....yet oner fact remains . you can not move a mt .....but you can misleed and make others beleave you have ...

i just dont by it ! this holly place has been in the same place for thousands of years and has never been moved , its in the same place it was before the Aztec and it well be in the same place after i am dead and gone ... you beleave what you want . it will not change the facts as they are . yet every step i am closer and closer and if i watch look and learn with every step the path becomes more clear ......a man with faith dose not know his god within him . i share my gods spirit with my own and what i can not see with my own eyes he will show me and guide my path the a place i have seen in my past before these days ....

under stand this . if this new path holds true than . the peralta stones are real but they are as i stated not made by the peralta at all ...or the jesuits for that matter ...

a man that dose not guide him self becomes lost yet those willing to guide them selfs and select their path before them often find them selfs as will as there path in life and the beyond ...

even if the locations have been hiden from the days of the aztec the stones may be far later as the map shows its funny how history can be changed threw the years . and how a secret can become a legend or a dozen legends give the idea of a wealth beyond our own desires ...


as did the blood flow from those hearts of scrifice so dose the proff that they were once real and thus there is a holly place beyond what we beleave .......
where our own spirit can take us beyond our human life beyond the reach of man ...i walk with gods day by day we all do most never see them . some never open their eyes or even look up ....

i am not afraid to try . i am not afraid to beleave , if my blood is to run down those rocks than let it be the last or let me be the one to hold the heart high up to the gods and call them back to see what we have become ...


are you worthy , that question is for each of us ...


so much death and blood and pain , so much it takes so many years for it to fade in the rain ...

 

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[the blindbowman]

sorry i forgot to answer one of the questions asked . (no) i do not beleave it had anything to do with the Franciscans why for two real good reasons . the two best known Franciscans in the aera came after Kino....Baltazar Corillo born 1734 and Narciso Gutierrez born 1765 latter refounded the chruch father Kino established on january 1691 at tumacacori..

so no i do not beleave the Franciscans had any part at the time or pre 1500,s this even goes to say that Kino could have had a part the changeing of the stones or map in or near the years of the late 1690,s or early 1700,s ,,,

even if i have found the cross shaped like a T that dose not mean it was not made years latter .... yet that fact dose not change the fact i have found both aztec and jesuit and spainish crosses in the area of site 1,2,4 and 5..

i fact site one has the spaish arrow and a cross .site 2 has a aztec simbolic cut into a large rock . site 4 has the leters JW cut into the wall of the rock house much latter than the date it was made and it was built on a much older site i beleave is Aztec ... site 5 is dirrectly across from site 4 and relates to both the map and stones and has 2 aztec simbolic ,s above on the tunnle as well as 2 or 3 other simbolics i have yet to check out frist hand ...

we never be able to prove 100% when the jesuits had any part in the map or stones yet the proff they did have part in makeing changes to the map and stones ...

i beleave they had found the sites and were killed for entering the holly place ...who and when is not cut in stone ...

do i beleave there is a LDM yes , do i beleave there is a tunnle (no) i know there is a tunnle there , do i beleave the map and stones are real YES . yet under stand they have had changes made to misleed others ....and those changes have been made by more than one person at more than one piont in time ...

so what you see is not all clear cut and dry ... when the order of the changes are placed on top of each other in the right order the vail of convission fades away and a clear map is seen and defind and matches the stones and maps to the same location that of the heart of the mts and holly place . dated IMHO to the early Aztec or before ....

and yes i can prove all of this takes place in one aera , its not what you see there its what you dont see ....often walking past it with out even a clue to catch the eye ...

even with what i just posted you must under stand the legend of the LDM and other legends also add data to these sites ....

if i am wrong i will walk away . if i am right ,history will never forget my name ...yet who i am dose not matter ...the out come dose ...

cause and effect !

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

Very nice posts.

It is now much easier to see where you are coming from.

I have no doubts about what you have found.

Good luck with the permit and your efforts to find the truth.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

find the truth you will find the facts , treasure or no treasure ! has little to do with that ... we could in fact find the lost holly place and there could be no treasure left there .. my piont is to find the facts in a mass of confussion no matter what it takes or where it takes me ...lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

On the subject of confusion I am duh?

A) the Aztecs were known for sacrificing literally thousands in a continuous line during certain ceremonies or victories. Sometimes it took days to kill all of the victims since there were so many. I somehow cannot visualize them killing just a few victims in the supersitions as an example to protect them. Alos there are many other similar spectacular magic areas between Mexico city and Arizona, why one so far away?

B) Regarding native languages, they relied heavily upon nuances/inflections for the meaning. This, plus a classifier, made it very difficult for someone else to learn to be proficient in them. As for a mechanical translator, sheeesh.

Actually we do also, look at how any meanings one can say with the simple word "OH" in English.

OH? oh, OH! ooh, etc.

This posed a major problem for me with the Yaqui's.

3) Slavery was a simple and common practice among "ALL" native tribes, who were constantly at war with each other. They were not peaceful people living in harmony and balance with each other or nature. They exploited nature and each other just as bad the later Europeans. We are being sold a bill of false goods today.

West from Alamos a distance of 49 miles and East about the same, there lived several tribes. For a member of one to enter the territory of another meant risking being killed, or mutilated in such a manner that they could no longer run or walk rapidly and were made slaves.

Females were relegated to being slaves by periodic raids upon surrounding Tribes.

So much for the idealistic life presently pictured of native Indian lives and living.

4) As for being ruthless, one must remember the period of history at that time. A period where it was common to cut off a hand in public for stealing a bit of food etc. Where one could be tortured to death or burned at the stake by a simple anonymous word.

Under these conditions slavery and death were considered as a normal practice even by the victims. So while to us the Jesuits /Franciscans etc appear to be villainous, in actuality they were far more benevolent than the Spanish as such.

The Apache believed that the longer they could keep a victim alive while torturing them, the more spiritual energy they could draw out. This led to some extremely unpleasant experiences. .

It was not a particularly nice period.

5) Put them togethe BB, and I fail to see why the grounds are supposedly cursed today?

To date I have never heard of the victims of the Nazi death camps manifesting themselves, so why do they supposedly pop up in the Supers?

As for the stone maps?? I simply do not know enough to question them intelligently, only Djui . He is fair game.

 

[the blindbowman]

i dont think the jesuit were that bad my self lol the spainish were far worse IMHO . yet they did what they wanted to and the natives had little way to fit them ..and i agree the fact remains we may never have one set tect for the translation the piont is that IMHO i do see a relateship between these to translated languages .. i also agree about the distance away from the temples . it must have some reason we are not awear of yet ! the answer maybe in the tunnle it self .

and you make a dam good piont about the raids of tribes that maybe why the location was selected in the frist place..this site would almost be beyond aproch from any dirrtection given as i stated there is only two ways up and only one way down . if they did make it up you could drive them over the edge very easy by hideing your numbers ....its like the old game king of the mt .. but in this case the Aztec were the kings , i can guess when the water dryed up it move them away a little more each season ...

its not a matter if i am right or not it is a matter that i could be and it would explan a lot we have no idea what those things mean or that they even play a roll in the over all legend . i am still looking for what i saw in 1979 yet i like to trun over every rock and there is one hell of a lot of rocks out there lol ..

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Covered a lot of ground with those posts. Blindbowman, you saw something that made you think "Aztec" - which is what I was asking, what it was that you saw that led you to investigate along those lines. Finding four pictograms would not automatically make one conclude 'Aztec' as the use of four pictograms is fairly common among southwestern tribes, in direct reference to the sacred four directions/four winds etc. So what about those pictograms made an Aztec connection?

The type of cross could help identify which missionary group is responsible, however a Tau ("T") type of cross is not necessarily even Christian, as the T cross was used by several Amerindian cultures which was quite a shock for the Spaniards to say the least. Likewise an arrow is a fairly common Amerindian sign or symbol, to conclude it has to be Spanish requires something more than just seeing an arrow. In fact the cross has been used as a symbol long before it was ever associated with Christianity.

I am also not in agreement with your reasons for excluding Franciscans - for instance we have covered the infamous lost cities of Cibola and the tale of Fray Marcos de Niza, well de Niza was a Franciscan priest! Garces, whom you have excluded specifically, another Franciscan priest/explorer, is credited with exploring much of the southwest. Remember that passing mention of the Tau ("T") type of cross? It is a common symbol of the Franciscan order, if you doubt my word look it up. Here is an extract:
quote
Due, no doubt, in large part to Francis' own affection for and devotion to the TAU, it has been a well recognized and accepted Franciscan symbol among Franciscans of various denominations and of all orders within those denominations for centuries. It remains so today. The TAU carries with it all of the symbolism of the Cross of Christ as well as Francis' ideal of life and dream for himself and his followers.
end quote (from: http://www.tssf.org/tau.shtml )

It is also true that the Franciscans did not learn of all of the mines and workings of the Jesuits, but they had their own to some degree.

Which means what? Only that it is going to take some more hiking up into the Superstitions to prove things.....

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Now and then, someone stumbles across a broke down arrastra and immediately labels it Spanish or Mexican.

When Americans first settled in the Southwest, they used Mexican labor and methods to work the mines. That continued for many years. Every old time prospector knew what a Mexican arrastra looked like and how to build one.

This one was made and used by George Monagan in the 1950s. Once the center pole and the rest of the hardware are removed.......it becomes a Spanish Artifact.

Joe

 

[Zephyr]

(Not meaning to sidetrack the current discussion) I ran across this recently:

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2006/petroglyphs.html

It's probably been posted somewhere on these forums before (and probably isn't relevant here), but I thought I'd better post it anyway since it might be of some interest.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Zepher; Loved it fascinating. Any more?


Dn Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

Zephyr, ditto! More info please?

 

[the blindbowman]

i agree oro .and its my opioion the Franciscans were not here at the tunnle site yet they may have been near by ... i have seen 8 or 9 of the pictorgraph much the older style they he showed in his reply ....... some were very simple drawn...basic if you well .almost primitive in detail . yet complex in there placement ... why go up a almost unclimble cliff to make a drawing . no white man would do that . who ever made the pictograph in this aera did it for a pacific reason ...

note the letter H that looks like a number 1 is seeable on the trail map stone as is 9 other simbolics on the stone maps ... 8 of the 9 i have seen in the aera near site 4...

 

[Zephyr]

"Loved it fascinating. Any more?"

Alas, no (not at this time.
Ran across it while checking out a link from a mailing list I'm on.
If you have InterLibrary Loan (ILL) at your local library, they should be able to order some of his books for you. (But you have to give them back...(!)

 

[the blindbowman]

thank you Zephyr for adding to the topic at hand , often we become part of the data flow and its nice to see someone out side the normal adding what they can find . sometimes it helps far more than you know ...i like keeping a open mind as to not block out things that dont look to fit at this time because they may fit latter down the data flow .....its when the flow stops that thousands of treasure hunter dont find any real evidence value ...some times a data path even if it dose not become evidence can help in defineing the logic profile of a given person in the legend ...

so yes i well come out and say thank you ....

it gave me a few ideas i will check out and i like the fact that they gave a somewhat out line of how some pictorgraphs combine both threw time and diffrent tribe,s drawing and simbolics ...


in fact i got something i am working on at this time i will be back on latter .. stay safe stay free

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=Zephyr
. (But you have to give them back...(!)
********
Are you sick? give them back snicker

How do you think that oror managed to collect so many nice reference books?

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[Zephyr]

How do you think that oror managed to collect so many nice reference books?

He is probably being hunted down by librarian bounty hunters as we speak....

Thanks for the kind comments BB!
I like to read a lot (though I can never remember any of it when I need to), and often run across strange or obscure stuff. If I find anything else, I'll let everyone know. (I'm in FL and hate traveling, camping, etc. so you don't have to worry about me beating any of you to any lost mines. Working on solving other, safer, mysteries. No "Indiana Jones" me....

 

[Oroblanco]

How do you think that oror managed to collect so many nice reference books?

He is probably being hunted down by librarian bounty hunters as we speak....

Hmm, Tropical Tramp seems to know the truth about how I built my 'library' - and why I use a pseudoname! Don't let the library police know where you found me? I will return those books when I am done with them (which will be as my last breath wheezes out of me! ) and return those "borrowed" from friends. Which reminds me, I wanted to ask if I could "borrow" a few books from you friends?

I have read a couple of books on how to read Amerindian petroglyphs/pictograms which were not too useful, because their 'translations' simply would not make sense in many cases, but that fellow (from the link supplied by Zephyr) seems to have truly hit on it! It really makes me wonder about a number of petroglyphs we have seen over the years and simply didn't have a clue how to read them. That desert bighorn symbol for example, showing up in places where the bighorns have NEVER existed, just didn't make sense to me. I fear that some Amerindian symbols are frequently mistaken for being Spanish, such as the arrow, turtle, and snake symbols, which COULD be Spanish, but were also very common Amerindian symbols and in most cases are more likely to be Amerindian than Spanish. A mistaken interpretation of rock symbols can lead to a great deal of wasted time and labor, and many a treasure hunter has made that mistake more than once! (Yep me too, 'guilty as charged' which is why I try to spend more time ID-ing exactly who made the signs, if possible and save others from wasting time and effort on a mistake.)

Well off to see how many more nice T-net folks I can irritate this evening...
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

Are you saying that many "Spanish Treasure Signs" may simply be American Indian Petroglyph's? Who woulda thunk it?

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

i out right agree .i have ID the pictorgraph in my location site 4 as Uto-Aztecan O'odham(Pima and Papago) tribes ...it looks to be a early site and part of the Aztec at the time or shortly after aztec ...i have a postive ID on more than 8 pictorgraphs, they are very simple simbolics at a early stage of these tribes , maybe at the brith place of those two tribes , yes makeing it a very holly place ...i got a idea why these two diffrent tribes were at this site ...it well take some time to put the whole picture back togather .but the most common signs are there , water , hunting , remember the wording of the nahuatl i had id ... to hunt to wash ...this site dose not look to be a normal site . it would have been cave dwellers and high mt dwellers at the same aera , very uncommon IMHO ...a war or they consumed each other over time into one tribe or some other event changed these sites ...loss of water maybe ...i dont know if there is any way to defind a true reason for these sites to die out , untill the tunnle/cave is opened and inspected i can only guess as to why ...

 

[the blindbowman]

not unless those tribes were not uto- aztecan and this map says they were , i dont think this history sorce is wrong ...note the letters of the tribe named opata , add a Y and you got Tayopa , but the map says piMA and PApago , ma and pa ,,,would it stand out if it was Papago and Pima .. is it in some related order we dont know about ...IMHO i beleave one of the tribes lived in the caves and the other lived at the ruins at the top of the mt...

depending on if these tribes were active at the time of monetzuma or before his time this is how monetzuma could have know the caves location ...it could have been past down to his tribes they were aztecan as well ....

the picture of Xipe totec CJ posted has a simbolic sheld on his right knee i have see that same sign cut into the rocks over the tunnle opening ...he maybe a great chiff and his remains may even be in the tunnle a holly place there no one knew about bout the Aztec ...

note the circle within a circle shows up in 5 out of the 8 known stones ,and thats one of the simbolics i am talking about ...