The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[cactusjumper]

B,

As you did not address your post to anyone, but it follows mine, I will assume you mean that I am the one who killed "a debate".

A "debate" means a discussion where opposing reasons are used to argue.....something.

In this case, as in most topics on a forum, I would agree with your saying a debate was ongoing. When blindbowman brought in Aztec pictographs, which he claimed he could prove, I asked him to show his proof. At that point, he decided to remove himself from the debate.

"As far as I can tell, I have only seen you provide OTHER people's evidence."

I would say, you haven't been paying attention. This could be the beginning of a debate, where you offer your proof for the validity of that statement, and I offer mine. As all of my posts are available for quotes, I can back up my side of the debate.

Believe me, I do see your point. When people write a good piece of fiction, sometimes you just need to enjoy the story. I will try to do just that in the future.

Thanks for your comments.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[cactusjumper]

B,

You are quite correct with the quote, but that had to do with the LDM, not the subject at hand, which is the Stone Maps.

I have thrown a pretty wide loop over the Superstitions in the last 48 years. Most of that was on foot, alone.....except for Juno and an occasional friend or family member, and with a sixty to eighty pound pack on my back.

I know the terrain, especially off the maintained trails, and I know the lore forwards and backwards. I don't tell any "tall tales" unless I qualify them as such. If I say something that comes from another, I say so. Most of the time, if I make historical statements I give the source and often give the page where it can be found.

Some respect me for that, and some don't really take to my methods at all. You may be one of the latter, which I can respect. I only ask that if you get excited about showing I am wrong, or have made a mistake, that you quote me honestly and completely, which you have (almost) done here. Some like to use partial quotes and I seldom let that go by.

There are two members of my family, my Uncle Chuck and my Mother's Uncle Obie Stoker, who spent years in the mountains and both men had claims which they worked over the years. Neither man knew the other until much later in their lives. My Superstition blood line is both paternal and maternal.

In other words, when someone comes up with a "new" fairytale about the mountains, I feel I have the experience and background to say B.S. That, by no means indicates I am right, but you had better bring the goods if you want to debate the point. Show me I am wrong, which happens often, and I will always applaud you. If I have offended, I will always be the first with an apology.

Thank you for your reply.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Hey I am still hoping Blindbowman will change his mind, as I wanted to hear from him just what it was about those petroglyphs that instantly made him think "Aztec". Perhaps he saw something we have not? I don't claim to know every square foot of the Superstitions, having lived quite some distance from them until relatively recently, each trip there involved driving nearly a thousand miles each way, (at minimum) and each time had a specific area in mind to search on arrival; never had the luxury of being able to simply hike up there from 'the backyard' and investigate every area that looked interesting. I am sure there are plenty of small side-canyons I have not set foot in, and the site Blindbowman described for where he found petroglyphs (or pictograms?) is not one I recognized.

A friend recently gave me a copy of a manuscript that propounds this very theory, of Aztecs in the Superstitions - have not yet read it and have to first get past a personal bias even to start, and I wonder if this is not a direct connection to source(s) that Blindbowman has been using? (HEY Tropical Tramp, before you ask - this one really WAS a "gift" and I don't have to return it, honest! )

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ORO: YEAH? I am supposed to accept the word of a TREAURE HUNTER? We all know what THEY are, bums, dead beats, looking for the Golden Rainbow instead of working, in other words Tropical Tramps.

don Jose de L aMancha Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

i got to go before i say something i will regret .nothing worse than a one way street,..... latter ...

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Blindbowman and all friends here,

I am glad you re-considered and returned, and hope that you will not take it too seriously if some of us are a bit skeptical; after all it would be very difficult to get three treasure hunters to agree on almost anything! We all have to have a good sense of humor to be a treasure hunter anyway. A bit of ribbing is to be expected now and then.

So the pictograms did NOT strike you as Aztec right off the bat. It was only later after conferring with the teacher, that it was suggested as a possible answer. We know that the Aztecs had contacts (trade) with tribes in the north, so it is not utterly impossible that they might have been in the Superstitions. Unlike the Spanish and Mexicans, the Aztecs did not leave us archives of written records to examine, so unless we find things like pictograms, pottery, figurines etc we cannot know they have been in a place.

Wouldn't it be something, if the vast treasury of the Aztec empire, which vanished during the Spanish conquest,were to be found in the Superstitions? The history books would have to be revised!

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

I learn far more from people tearing down my arguments, than when everyone continually nod's there heads in agreement.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but every square inch of the Superstition Mountains is available in aerial photographs. My Uncle Chuck got a complete set over thirty years ago.
I have them now, and have made a number of copies......many zoomed in for wonderful detail.

The Stone map trail coming out of West Boulder and crossing over the saddle into Little Boulder, shows up quite well. The trail on the east side of the ridge also can be seen.
This ability to see trails that could never be found on the ground is very valuable for anyone researching the legends of the Superstitions.

Not only have I been all over the area you speak of, but I have examined the blowups of those aerial photographs. Something the size of what you are speaking of, would show up very well. I have also spent many hours flying over the Superstitions in a helicopter.
I have hundreds of aerial photographs. Some of that flight time I paid for, but most was with my brother-in-law, who would not even allow me to pay for fuel.

I will start an album of aerial photos here and on the LDM Forum. Might be of value to those who have kept their feet on the ground.

IMHO, none of this is a waste of time.....even the parts you consider B.S. In most cases, people testing your theories should make you question them. That only strengthens your conclusions......assuming they are correct in the first place.

After believing for many years that the Stone Maps were made by the Peralta's or Jesuit's, the constant search for "evidence" to support those ideas, revealed what I know believe to be the truth. That search would never have occurred if everyone always agreed with me. It's been a great adventure and, as I have said before, I don't regret a moment of it.

If you don't want to provide evidence to support your stories, that's your business and you only need to decline the requests. That will not stop the questions or doubts. My manner of questioning is abrasive for many people, so I will not rock your boat again.

Good luck and good hunting,

Joe Ribaudo

Top picture shows Weavers Needle and a portion of Black Top Mesa. Next picture is cropped to show more detail of Black Top.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Pictures added to my last post.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AllO DJUI, I PROMISED YOU THE LOCATION OF THE LDM, HERE IS YOUR FUNNEL HEHEHEHEH.

I finally received some aerial photos.

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

those look nothing like the funnle i found ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI BB, those are high cliffs surrounding the circuar depression. The circular area is much lower, obviously.,

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

HI BB, those are high cliffs surrounding the circuar depression. The circular area is much lower, obviously.,

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical tramp

if you say so , i just said it looks nothing like what i have found .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

"Gonna take a Pleese Don Jose" Djui

Don Jose deLa Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

Hate to break this to you, but my uncle drew that circle and dot on the aerial photo many years ago. I have the original, and only a few people have copies......given by me. I believe I am the only person, left alive, who knows what it means. Maybe Tracy Hawkins, but I doubt it.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

"Blindbowman, you saw something that made you think "Aztec" - which is what I was asking, what it was that you saw that led you to investigate along those lines. Finding four pictograms would not automatically make one conclude 'Aztec' as the use of four pictograms is fairly common among southwestern tribes, in direct reference to the sacred four directions/four winds etc. So what about those pictograms made an Aztec connection?"

The one thing that Bowman could have seen that might convince him he was in an Aztec site, would have been the buildings. Of course, he would have needed to know something about how they would construct the buildings he saw.

Someone who did know was John Gegory Bourke. It will be interesting to see if Bowman can google that information. Here's a hint: The date was Sept. 25, 1874 The place, Tonto Creek....No camera, but he drew some nice pictures. One word of interest on his picture was, "teocalli?"

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=cactusjumper T.T.,Hate to break this to you,
********
You do not sniffff, meanie.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~but my uncle drew that circle and dot on the aerial photo many years ago. I have the original, and only a few people have copies......given by me. I believe I am the only person, left alive, who knows what it means. Maybe Tracy Hawkins, but I doubt it.Joe
***************
As for his exact meaning, Naturally no-one not intimatetly aquainted with him would know, but I personally would concentrate a lot of time there, since it does closely fit Caseys' description and also shows a geological possibility..

When are we going Cactus/djui/golly or whomever ?

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

good bye

 

[cactusjumper]

Sorry Randy,

No other information will be forthcoming. Feel free to take a look.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=djui5 link=]
Did a certain book writer know the meaning?
************
Nah I don't, but it IS interesting snicker

p.s. who is the book writer?

p.p.s. Dogone it Cactus spines, eliminate all marks in the future, on my screen it almost looked natural, even to the shadow factor snifff.

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=cactusjumper ]
Sorry Randy,No other information will be forthcoming. Feel free to take a look.Joe
*********

Shucks, Cactus -------, make The Randy one an active "parter" since you have stated that you have no intention to be active in the search anymore. Private cummunication of course.

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp