The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[the blindbowman]

i wish i could talk openly but i cant as of yet ! . i agree if i didnt know what i do ...

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Oroblanco]

Good points CJ and BB. There is something very compelling about treasure maps, isn't there? It is a terrific temptation for any treasure hunter to want to follow them out, to work out the clues, to find what the map is supposed to lead to. It is a sad fact that so many treasure maps are frauds, with so few of the genuine article.

I guess that if I lived in Apache Junction, I would take the time to follow out the route and marks CJ has posted, out of curiosity if nothing else. The Superstitions are so beautiful it is worth the hike if you found nothing, really (in my opinion anyway). You never know just what you will find.

Blindbowman wrote:

i wish i could talk openly but i cant as of yet !

Blindbowman you can talk openly here, at least up to a point - where better to bounce ideas and/or theories than among fellow treasure hunters? I would not recommend posting your exact locations of course, and it is tough to get two treasure hunters to agree on anything but often a lot of good information gets exchanged.

Good luck and good hunting to you, friends; I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Guess I will start a new thread on yet another lost mine legend...

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

Speaking only for myself, the treasures I have received over the last 48 years cannot be measured in wealth removed from the ground. I never invested more than I could afford on my hobby.

My research has led me on a journey through the history of Spain, Mexico, South America and the breadth of America. It has given me an education in The Jesuits and Franciscans, Native Americans, Archaeology, Geography, Genealogy, Mythology and to a lesser extent.......Rock-ology....

Those who have genuinely sought treasure have eventually realized that the time spent doing so has cost them not only time and money, but also lost opportunities in 'real life'. Greed trumps everything in the beginning, but at some point the true TH's realize that they are not seeking mere money after all, but something much more valuable. Your statement is beginning to hint at the true prize. If we're ever fortunate enough to know the true interconnected history of the topics you've listed above (and others), maybe we'll understand what all those 'lost mines and hidden treasures' really are. And if we don't ... well, the thrill of the quest and the discovery of terra incognito is a gratifying substitute.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

I believe that I have "genuinely" searched for treasure, but admit I have never
"lost opportunities in 'real life", because of that search. I have seen the results, for most treasure hunters who let everything take second place to chasing that dream, and for the majority......it ain't a pretty sight.

I live well and still have more than my share of "outback" memories. Pretty satisfied with that history and results. Only speaking for myself here.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Springfield,

Speaking only for myself, the treasures I have received over the last 48 years cannot be measured in wealth removed from the ground. I never invested more than I could afford on my hobby.

My research has led me on a journey through the history of Spain, Mexico, South America and the breadth of America. It has given me an education in The Jesuits and Franciscans, Native Americans, Archaeology, Geography, Genealogy, Mythology and to a lesser extent.......Rock-ology....

Those who have genuinely sought treasure have eventually realized that the time spent doing so has cost them not only time and money, but also lost opportunities in 'real life'. Greed trumps everything in the beginning, but at some point the true TH's realize that they are not seeking mere money after all, but something much more valuable. Your statement is beginning to hint at the true prize. If we're ever fortunate enough to know the true interconnected history of the topics you've listed above (and others), maybe we'll understand what all those 'lost mines and hidden treasures' really are. And if we don't ... well, the thrill of the quest and the discovery of terra incognito is a gratifying substitute.

Well Springfield,

You say "eventually", and so far, I have yet to pass up on any "real life" opportunities that I know of. There is a huge difference between Treasure Hunting, and Treasure Hunting Addiction. Those that become truly addicted are few and far between. Those like Barry Storm, who lived out his last years in a plywood shanty in the Anza Borrego Desert. Always wearing his sidearm, because of those "people" who were still out to get him. Even died in the wool Professional Treasure Hunters (Frank Fish, George Mroczkowski, Chuck Kenworthy, and some others I could name), still had a "real life" as you call it. One (Treasure Hunting) is not mutually exclusive of the other (real life). Only obsessively addicted treasure hunters turn into ranting desert rats, and they have the addictive gene built into them anyway. If it weren't treasure hunting, it might be gambling, smoking, drugs, sex, or any other addictive behaviour.

Best,

Mike

 

[Springfield]

"...There is a huge difference between Treasure Hunting, and Treasure Hunting Addiction..."

Mike, there is an even bigger difference between knowing for a fact your target exists and believing that it does. It's like the difference between real combat and paintball. Observation: if you've read about it, you don't have a chance in he!! of locating it, if it really exists (and it probabaly doesn't). You may have fun seeking it, but you will never have to worry about finding it, and therefore you are not willing to sacrifice anything more than what you would for any other type of recreation.

 

[Dave45]

Im not addicted

Im not

really


Im not






wellllllllll what


whats everyone looking at


Im not

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote:

Observation: if you've read about it, you don't have a chance in he!! of locating it, if it really exists (and it probabaly doesn't).

Gee, Springfield, you have not grown cynical towards treasure hunting have you? Actually it would be great if everyone else had that attitude, since that would mean MUCH less competition to have to deal with. Oh, and remember, "there is no gold left to find" and "the old timers got it all" plus my favorite, "if there were any truth to it, the local boys would have already got it". Yeah right. If you really think there is no chance of finding some of those "famous" lost treasures, you might be in the wrong hobby! Would it help your belief level if you were to see a list of "famous" lost treasures, sunken ships, lost mines etc that have been found and proven?

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI ORO Speaking of lost mines and recovery here is the result of Noront's preliminary investigation of la Escondida from friday's Toronto exchange, Letter of Intent, notice by Noront.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Noront shall have 45 days in which to complete a more formal agreement and investigate the title to the project, after which the formal agreement will be executed.
The mineralized zone consists of an intrusive dike hosting a number of quartz-carbonate veins mineralized with slight to semi-massive sulphides. The sulphides consist of pyrite, chalcopyrite, sphalerite and galena along with concentrations of gold and silver.

The assays from recent sampling are listed in the table.

Sample Sample % Cu % Zn % Pb Gold Silver
No. type

71828 Dump 0.46 0.30 1.97 74.60 2060
71829 Dump 0.37 7.80 1.17 0.40 233
71830 Dump - - - 35.82 399
71833 Dump 14.8 0.26 0.93 40.03 2160

The assaying was completed by the Bourlamaque Assay Laboratory of Val d'Or, Que.

Sigh, so, so called lost mines do exist. This one was in plain sight but ignored for years. I let it go very cheap $ 400,000 US and usual NSR of 2%, since it will be my door & key to the biggest one. I still have two others just as good or better to go besides the big one. Soo lost or unknown mines and deposits do exist to be found.

Tropical Tramp

p.s. Just how binding is a Letter OF Intent ?

 

[Springfield]

Oro: Gee, Springfield, you have not grown cynical towards treasure hunting have you?
No, not at all - just entirely realistic. Cynical towards mainstream TH-ing? Yes, indeed.

"Oh, and remember, "there is no gold left to find"...
Actually, I believe there are undoubtedly some very rich surface deposits left to be found that the old timers missed. They're probably in real rough terrain and just sitting there waiting. Anyone who has spent time in the back country can appreciate that there are a whole lot of acres that are untrodden by man. How many of these are there? Not many, but some. Is it worth the effort to locate them? Probably not, since the odds are extremely heavy against the searcher - probably better odds with PowerBall.

...you might be in the wrong hobby!...
Hobby? Ha, ha ... good one, Oro. I didn't ask to get into this game, but I'm glad it happened nonetheless. All I can say about the subject is, "Things are seldom as they seem".

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA Real de Tayopa,

NICE assay results, I presume this is from your Escondida? Sounds like it is going to be a real money maker for you, and should provide the capital to re-open good old Tayopa. I envy you, but don't envy the task of punching some kind of a road IN to Tayopa, from the photos it looks like it will be quite a job just making some kind of road to get in to it with heavy equipment.

I don't know if you followed the Eskay creek strike about ~ 20 years or so ago in BC Canada, but the region was and is really rough and remote, not quite on a level with that barranca country but similar. They ended up flying in lots of equipment with heavy lift helicopters, and there was a lot of talk about using zeppelins (seriously) to haul in living quarters etc. I presume you have already been working on this problem for some time.

BTW Springfield, I was kidding you - there is no other hobby as rewarding as treasure hunting and it is for 'everyone'. If you cannot believe there is any chance of anyone finding the more famous lost mines and treasures, that is your prerogative. I have done a fair amount of research on quite a few lost mines and learned that a surprising number are real. Take for example the famous or infamous Tayopa mine of old Mexico - our friend and fellow T-net member Real deTayopa spent a lot of time and effort but finally found it! So does that mean no one should bother to search for Tayopa? Well the truth is far more complicated - for there are THREE Tayopa's, and we only know the true location of two - one remains lost but is well documented!

How does all this relate to the 'Peralta' stone maps? I guess it boils down to the mix of history and legends, and the alluring prospect of treasure maps. As friend Cactusjumper has pointed out, the stone maps are real maps, they can be followed out to various landmarks within the Superstitions; one Harry laFrance brought out at least one gold bar, allegedly by using the stone maps to find it; just MY OPINION but I strongly suspect the stone maps are a fraud, and I have mentioned my favorite 'suspect' and cohorts for having created them. If I am right, there very well could still be some kind of treasure left to find. Do you believe that the stone maps are directly related to the Peraltas?

We are left divided into camps, those of us who are convinced the stone maps do lead to hidden treasures or mines, those of us who are convinced they are frauds created to deceive treasure hunters and add to the lore/legends of the Superstitions (and increase tourism along the way) and those who remain un-convinced either way. We have covered a lot of ground in these threads (and on other forums as well) but I rather doubt that anyone has totally changed their view as a result of our debates and discussions. It has been a very interesting (and sometimes lively) discussion, at least for me, and despite a personal bias against them, I hope to leave the door open a crack - my opinion CAN be changed in light of new evidence. I noticed some new questions posted in the 'other' thread on the 'Peralta stones' but refrained from posting a reply out of respect; that thread I think was not intended to be a debate over whether they are real or a hoax, and the questions posed would lead me to post answers which would create debate in that thread. I will address the questions here and post a linkee in the other thread: (apologies for the lengthy post)

Bogeymcq wrote:

My questions:

* Has anyone translated the words written on the stones? What was the result? Is the language Spanish, Portuguese, a mix or ?? ?

Several persons have translated the words inscribed on the stones, you can find some transcriptions here in these threads. The language is Spanish, with some spelling errors.

* I have seen mentioned a time or two the mispelling of the word "Coazon". . . is there a possibilty that was the way the individual(s) who wrote it "heard" the word? I am just thinking of Ellis Island & when individuals came over many many names were mispelled due to language barriers.

There are two theories about the erroneous spelling of Coazon - that it could be a simple mistake for "Corazon" ("heart" in Spanish) or that you are to search for the missing "R" by finding it on the maps. It is also possible that the mis-spelling is due to the fact that the hoaxer did not know how to spell 'corazon'.

* I see discussions about the number 1847. . could it represent a year some gold was mined & reburried? I read an bit on http://www.desertusa.com/magnov97/gold/nov_gold2.html :

You have already hit on the ideas about the date/number 1847. One likely possibility is that a hoaxer picked that date, which was coincidentally the year of the Mexican-American war, without thinking that this might make the whole scenario of stone maps and secret mines that much less believable. Others hold that the number 1847 has nothing to do with a date, it is a number related to the amount of gold/silver, the number of varas away from a landmark to dig etc.

During the 1840s, the Peralta family of northern Mexico supposedly developed rich gold mine(s) in the Superstition Mountains. In 1848, during a routine expedition to carry gold back to Mexico, the large party was ambushed by Apaches, and all were killed except for a few Peralta family members who escaped. According to the legend, the Apaches buried and hid the gold and covered up the mine. This area is known today as the Massacre Grounds.

The Peralta family of northern Mexico did in fact develop rich silver and gold mines, but not in the Superstition mountains; more info is to be found among the earlier posts in these threads, but to sum it up, the rich silver mine was in Sonora, the gold mine was in the Bradshaws near Black Canyon city AZ. The tale of the Apaches hiding the gold/mine is legend, cannot be proven; as to "Massacre Field" there are at least two possible stories, one of the Peralta party being attacked and massacred there, the other being that a party of Pima Indians was attacked and massacred there.

1847 would be one year prior to that. . just a thought in my head that maybe it was getting harder to get out with their gold so they began to hide it & leave "notes" for future findings.

You are correct in that 1847 would have been an extremely difficult year to try to haul out a pack train load of gold/silver, since the war was raging between the USA and Mexico, and both sides had troops posted to watch all known routes and passes. A party of Mexicans trying to "slip" through the opposing armies, while not attracting the attention of hostile Apaches, would have had to be pretty expert at it. Of course the argument goes that they did not escape, as they were attacked by Apaches and massacred - however note on the map where Massacre Field is located, this is not a logical route for a pack train headed for anywhere.

On http://www.desertusa.com/magnov97/gold/nov_gold2.html it also stated that :

In the 1870s, Jacob Waltz, "the Dutchman" (actually a native of Germany), was said to have located the mine through the aid of a Peralta descendant.

Are there any descendants around? Would the family have not talked, left diaries, notes around for the future generation? Any of the descendants ever talk about the stones or gold or ambush?

The story of Waltz obtaining knowledge of his mine from Peraltas is trace-able to lost-mine-writers, there is another version of how he found his mine recorded in the "Pioneer interviews" - during the Depression years writers were put to work interviewing living old-timers, some of whom knew Jacob Waltz personally and their version is quite different and logical. Yes there are Peralta descendants around, quite a number in the phone books both in Arizona and Sonora, as well as California. Contact friend and fellow T-net member Gollum, I am sure he could put you in touch with Peraltas or point you in the correct direction. Not sure if such a pursuit would prove useful or fruitful for you, but I wish you good luck and good hunting; perhaps you can track down someone who has information that can help you in your search.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI BETH, thanks. It is a letter of intent to sell the mine to Noront. As I understand it, it is subject to being modified for setting up the final sale contract?

In other words, I agree to sell the mine to noront, but the final details can still be negotiated? I don't intend to because this is my stepping stone to Tayopa even If I suffer a potential loss in the basic deal.

Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

no i cant ....

i kept something from expedition 2 that you all dont know about ... i did something i cant talk about ....when you cross the line you well under stand i hope ....


luck to all of you !

 

[cactusjumper]

Blindbowman,

Getting a treasure trove permit is not cut and dried. I have this and that so you must give me a permit. It is an arbitrary decision. You need the local authorities on your side first.....and foremost. Without their support, I doubt you will live enough years to see your request come to any kind of fruition.....if ever.

I would suggest you not advertise the fact that you have done anything that required "crossing the line". That will not endear you to any of the local people in power that can deny your request.

All of these sites are monitored for people boasting of illegal activities. To think otherwise would be naive....at best.

Just concerned advise. I will not take offense if you tell me to just mind my own business.

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Why are you putting the Big Brother face on, and saying how these typ[es of sites are monitored? We have only to look as far as the regular TNet Community! Dont forget our friend JScottWood! He IS the guy BB will have to go through to get a Treasure Trove Permit in The Tonto National Forest! Plus, since he is the Chief Archaeologist there, he is also close with his counterparts in the rest of the nearby National Parks and National Forests. He has already given me introduction to his counterpart at the Coronado National Forest.

BB,

Always remember, you get more bees with honey than with vinegar!

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Things have been a little slow, so I guess it was just something to do to pass some time.

Bowman seems like a nice guy, but he seems to be doing a liesurly backstroke amongst the piranha. Looking back, you would have to assume he is just putting us all on.

What ever happened to your California research into the "authentication" of the Stone Maps? Run into a little black ice on the information highway? Interesting line you were following there.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

No REAL black ice. Jane Dana is still going through her late husband's papers (when he retired in 1986, he took home ALL his papers, so she has about 40 years of stuff to wade through). I don't think she is putting a high priority on finding it either.

The other file in Az. keeps eluding our grasp (someone else here knows what I mean), but it will surface soon enough (Lord willing, and the river don't rise).

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The questions that comes to mind are: If Professor Dana "dated" the stones, and wrote a report......who did he send it to? Why have those reports not been made public? Some of the best minds in the business have spent a few years trying to "solve" those maps. Not much point in keeping the results of any "professional" report under wraps.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sheesh Ladies, gentlemen: It now appears that when I have Tayopa in it's final activity, I will "have" to finish up this LDM/Stone thingie for you, otherwise you will never sleep again wondering. sigh.

Remember, I am a REINCARNATED JESUIT and a secluded SAINT - No genuflecting or smooching of my hand required - I KNOW ALL!. ( or will).sides I have a proven OUIJI BOARD, certified by BETH.

The above is courtesy of the local Guayajiro Indians that worked the Tayopa mines. Even if they aren't serious, who am I to dishonor or challenge ones personal beliefs --- except in the case of the LDM & P stones...

Don Jose de La Mancha - Tropical Tramp - Finder of the LDM and the truth behind the P.stones

p.s sorry Gullum, djui, Oro's, Cactus spine studded butt, Dave, Springfield, Scott (the supreme sceptic) BB, and too many others to mention in such a small space, etc etc, You all have had your chance!

 

[cactusjumper]

TT,

For being so cheeky...pardon the pun, you may send me a piece of ore (the size of my head) from the Tayopa Mine. I will use it for a doorstop in my war room. My hat size is 7 3/4", so don't skimp on the sample. I realize that some folks will say it is actually much bigger.....so use your own judgement.

I will assume that we will all take your word for the various accouterments you have laying about the house.....OUJI BOARDS, CRYSTAL BALLS and such. My sincere sympathies to Beth.

Joe "Big Head" Ribaudo