The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

author=cactusjumper ]
TT,For being so cheeky...pardon the pun, you may send me a piece of ore (the size of my head) from the Tayopa Mine. I will use it for a doorstop in my war room. My hat size is 7 3/4", so don't skimp on the sample. I realize that some folks will say it is actually much bigger.....so use your own judgement.

***********
consider it done, my pleasure. I have not, nor will I sell Tayopa.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will assume that we will all take your word for the various accouterments you have laying about the house.....OUJI BOARDS, CRYSTAL BALLS and such. My sincere sympathies to Beth.
**********

Durn I forgot a Crystal ball, thanks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Joe "Big Head" Ribaudo
*********
----------------5th------------------ (actually I am not in acuerdo/agreement, bull headed as me perhaps but---)

DON Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

author=djui5]
hahaha!
************
If you were a gentleman you would have ignored the "Cheeky" remark regarding his posterior lower anatomical configuration, i.e. his cactus spine studded butt. Sniff..

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

TT,

Unless you are a Schnauzer, it is never a good idea to put "butt" and "Sniff" in such close proximity.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

TT I see you mentioned Scott, I have not noticed any posts from our USFS friend lately. I hope he has not given up on us T-netters as incorrigibles!

As far as the LDM goes, there are some who say it is already found and entirely worked out, with nothing left to find - so the search could well be literally a quest to prove a point with no real monetary reward(s) involved. How far would you be willing to go, just to prove a point? Of course if the mine is already played out, it might not look much different from the numerous prospect holes dug around in the Superstitions. What then? Most anyone could then hike in, look at one of the old prospect holes and be able to claim "I found the LDM" and no one could prove them wrong, since the mine is played out and virtually indistinguishable from the prospect holes.

Oroblanco

PS Tropical Tramp, when you get Tayopa re-opened and working, I would love to buy a small ore sample from the main vein, about the size of a walnut or so? I think it would be really neat to have an ore sample from such a famous old mine, and a small piece would do nicely - small enough to fit in a mineral display cabinet. No rush on this request my friend, I DO have some idea of how difficult it is to get in to Tayopa and plan on being alive to see the day when it is re-opened, plus don't have my mineral display cabinet built yet! Anyway please add me to your list of folks who would like to buy a mineral specimen when you get the mine opened and working again?

Dang, just the thought of building a road in to Tayopa would give me headaches - you must have been planning this part of the job a lot. Even after a road is built, the drive up it would probably scare the wits out of me! (Skeered of heights, which is why I am not tall!)

 

[the blindbowman]

i found what i treasure most ...it was the will to try ....

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

"As far as the LDM goes, there are some who say it is already found and entirely worked out, with nothing left to find".

Actually, I have been saying that very thing for many....many years. That's why I never spent any of my time in the Superstitions looking for it.

If I were to go looking for the LDM I would look for an old mine with something different, that you might not expect to associate with Jacob's find. Perhaps another mineral altogether, with a gold rich chimney coming right up through the "host" ore. Might make for an interesting.....or uninteresting ore dump.

Not knowing s%#@ about rocks, that's just an uneducated theory. Is such a formation even possible, say in the middle of a silver sulphide formation? Don't ask me to explain what I just said, as I don't really know.

Anyway, my days of making impossible climbs are over. If I make it out of bed in the morning, I consider it a great feat of strength and dexterity.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

"It would look like this.."

Did you mean...It could look like this?

Just want to make sure I understand if the concept is feasible. Could it look different than what you have referenced, or is "would" the word?

No offense meant, but your posts are a lot more interesting (and informative) when you string a few more words together.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

OK, thanks.

I am begining to see that my theory may not be so far fetched after all.

So if the Dutchman's "chimney" came up through the silver sulphide, as rich as he claimed it was (hand workable), what would the dump looks like.....?

Did you have to go looking for those pictures, or did you already know where they were?

Joe

 

[Dave45]

Not to change the subject, this thread is very educational as well as comical.
Ego's bumping heads
But not growing up in gold country and new to TH, its great to be able to learn from people such as yourselves.
Just wanted to say Thanx
HH
Dave

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

"Ego's bumping heads"?............We are sooooo... misunderstood.

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

maybe it should go like this .

to hunt
to wash
to fear
to wish
to father
to wish
to door
to right
to witch
to cross
to ruins
to door
to water
to monetzume,s water or mt,
to aztec city
to 4 winds

the traslation is broken but its better than it was ...i am a long ways from where i started and its starting to make sense now ...i have found 3 other aztec simbolic,s near the rock house .... within a hunderd yards , in fact make that 4 what i saw as a spainish arrow simbolic maybe nahuatl , and that maybe why i could not find a spainish marking just like it ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

"in nahuatl the word mapa means mapache .. mother of apache ..."

This is one of your more obvious errors. I assume you wanted comments.

You read a lot into four symbols. Can you describe what they looked like, or did you take pictures of them?

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=cactusjumper
"in nahuatl the word mapa means mapache .. mother of apache ..."
*************

Mapache also refers to the Raccoon family.

Don Jose de La Mancha Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

The term "Apache" was first used by the Spaniards in documents from 1598. They wrote the name as: Apades or Apiches. It was not a name known to the Aztecs nor used by the Apache themselves, in that era. Prior to 1598, the Spaniards called the Apache, Querechos. "Apache" became the name used by the Spaniards around the time of the founding of Santa Fe. That would be around 1610.

The Aztec "writing" was done in pictographs, so in a sense you are correct when you say they did not have an "R" in their language.

"one there was no word in the nahuatl language for gold..."

The Aztec did a great deal of fine artwork in gold. Do you have a source for the above statement?

You would need (at least) 14 drawn symbols/pictographs to match your list.

It takes years of study to be able to read Aztec pictographs, with anything approaching accuracy. You have shown some disdain for using history in your research which is why your conclusions do not hold water.

If you are going to bring historical "facts" into your posts, you should be ready to back them up. There are many good books available to research early Mesoamerican societies, as well as the Apache Indians.

Unless you address something to me, this will be my last comment on your latest posts, as I am probably well over the line as it is.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

if your not going to try to keep up than i will walk away on my own path and yes i know very well that the word apache is not part of the nahuatl language . look it up at answers.com . the have a very nice traslator page that traslates nahuatl to spainish and spanish to nahuatl and nahuatl to english . yet under one thing before you get into this maze . a word in spainish may mean one thing when traslated to nahuatl yet the same word in nahuatl language may have a dozen or so meanings when retranslated back to spainish and vise varsa .....there are only 14 letters in the nahuatl language and 52 centuryies in their calinderwithin every alinement ... ....the real question is not if i am right about this line of data the question is how many have looked at that map and have never noted this fact ,... and yes it is fact ... the spainish were trying to relate to the native tribes .and most spoke nahuatl yet there were many type of tounge of this nahuatl languages as i under stand it ..... you could have one word that had as many as 50 diffrent or closely related meanings ... that was one of the things i noted about the aztec codices ... the discription gaven by Pinkley matched the same location i am researching ...the simbolic on the fotter stone was not made at the same time as the rock house . the rock house stands on a much older site . a nahuatl site the IMa means to fear . is that not what the apache stated about their holly place . its funny if you think about it . to fear , is in its own name meaning as the apache stated it was we just didnt under stand them any more now than we did back than ......i find the mts beautful and full of life and spirits .... yet i under stand why they named this place that ...


take a good look at the map and look where the word Auga is yet the meaning in spainish is water and in nahuatl it is mineral ....


look at the letters on the map . there are two very diffrent types . take the L of el sombrero vs the L of perfilthese are not made by the same hand , fact ! not even close ...


go ahead i welcome you to take a closer look . look at the map and forget there are any words on it and what do you see ??


i am creative artistic i see with my mind not with just my eyes . my mind flips the shapes back and forth and innside out over and over tell it finds the matching peices ...i am a boarder line savant i dont think about it it just dose it ! its like a big mixing bowl . you know when the mix is right you can smell it and taste it and see it , and you know it is right ...you sense it ...


i took 54 sequenced over laping photos to make one picture the way i wanted it . it took 23 hours ...but i keep finding more and more things in those photos than i could see if i was out there for weeks ...

i know you question everything . thats great .. you tell me how many letters or words on that map are in the nahuatl language ?

so what dose( caverna con casa )mean if there is no R or S in the nahuatl language . all right or ok cross door ......

could it all be a matter of two doors one to heaven and one to hell ...... one up and one down .....


a door to a chruch of heaven or a door to a tunnle into the bottomless earth ...


i no longer wonder what the map means . i know what it means and why ...


i know what the stones mean and why ... yes there is a real treasure to be found . within each of us ...

 

[the blindbowman]

you really want to under stand what it means . think about it from a nahuatl piont of veiw . what was his holly place became hell a place of slaves and mines where his people died by the thousands and in the other dirrectiopn a holly chruch to heavens door , just not to their gods a heaven they did not know of ....one not of their own ... they saw greed and death where they were told heaven and peace would be ...if i was a nahuatl back than i would walk away too ....if i am right what happend to these people as native tribes is one of the sadist parts of the human races history i have ever herd of ... the shame is not in what they did . its all how the modern world slaved them ....over took their lives and homes and cast them to the mines and worked them tell their deaths ... no i will not be part of this much longer .... i could set the story stright and change history . but for who ....i could hope that mankind choked on the truth , but we both know what well happen , dont we ...?


the treasure can stay there and rot for all i care ... youll never find it ....lol

 

[cactusjumper]

Bowman,

I will assume your last two posts were meant for me, as we seem to be the only ones involved, right now.

I can't argue with your assessment of what happened to the native population after the conquest, but it was not so black and white. Out of the almost 200 coats of arms and patents of nobility awarded after the conquest, around 20 went to the Indians.

Germs killed more Indians than anything. The Franciscan and Dominican Orders were a large influence in educating the natives of the time. They established schools for the children with the express purpose of "spreading the gospel". It took almost a hundred years for the mines and serfdom/slavery to become established.

Records were kept in Aztec pictographs and in Spanish. Both sides were learning the language and writing of the other. Going back and looking through my copy of "The Codex Borgia", I was thinking how hard it would have been to convey in (Nahuatl) pictographs, anything outside the "localized" history of the Aztec. That would be: Their history, calendar,religion and deities.

"Aztecs of Mexico" by, George C. Vaillant provides a pretty good perspective on all phases of Aztec life, pre and post conquest. For the other side of the stories I have read, a number of times, "The Broken Spears: The Aztec Account of the Conquest of Mexico" translated from "original Nahuatlan Indian paintings" by, Angel Maria Garibay K.

It is also helpful to understand the Nahuatl writings if you can study the Maya. Since you already know everything, there is nothing left for you to do. When I need to know something along these lines, I email Michael Coe. In the future, I will ask you first.

"i know you question everything . thats great .. you tell me how many letters or words on that map are in the nahuatl language ?"

The Nahuatl language has been phonetically translated into Spanish. You are confusing their pictographs with a complete written language....They are not. If, as you say, you have Nahuatl words that you have found in the Superstition Mountains, they are not Nahuatl pictographs or
"aztec simbolic,s", but Spanish translations. I assume every word on the Stone Maps could be spoken and written in Nahuatl, as it exists today. "aztec simbolic,s" could (probably) not be used to convey those words.

"go ahead i welcome you to take a closer look . look at the map and forget there are any words on it and what do you see"

A very accurate topographic map.

I believe the day's of someone cleaning out a mine or treasure under camo-netting are over. That means it's unlikely anyone, including you, will ever remove any treasure or large amounts of minerals from those mountains again.

By the way, there is a Nahuatl word for gold.

On the other hand, I hope you do.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Well CJ and BB you are the only two who have been posting lately, I for one have been just reading (or "lurking" as they say).

Blindbowman you mentioned a cross earlier - what type of cross was it, can you recall? It is important and a fair indicator of who/whom created it. Cactusjumper mentioned the "other" missionaries active in Spanish America, the Franciscans and Dominicans. The Franciscans are especially intriguing, as even though they had an agreement as to which areas were alloted to the Jesuits and which were for the Franciscans, the Franciscans did do some proselytizing in the Jesuits' assigned areas, including Arizona. The Jesuits are indeed mysterious and were accused of many evils but we should also look at the Franciscans. Remember after the Jesuits were expelled in 1767, it was the Franciscans who conveniently "stepped in" and took over the area! Were they (Franciscans) active in Arizona prior to 1767? Absolutely! Look it up!

If you can find a copy of the 'Historical Atlas of Arizona" there is a map in it which shows the locations of some of the Franciscan missions, which were technically illegal and did not survive; also some of the routes of Franciscan friars who took to exploring the northern frontiers. I would sooner accept that some Franciscans had ventured into the Superstitions, than the Jesuits, just a personal bias however.

Not sure why Blindbowman took the symbols he found to be Nahuatl, or why to examine the stone maps with an eye to Nahuatl meanings. I realize that BB is in part chasing legends, which does not require the same levels of "proof" that it might take to get the history books changed, but I would like to know why, Blindbowman, you chose to turn to the language of the Aztecs? (Also, before you feel TOO sorry for those Aztecs, keep in mind that the fall of the Aztecs was due in large part to the massive assistance of the OTHER tribes which surrounded the Aztecs, whom had been held in subjection; the Aztecs were not a particularly "gentle" tribe or culture, and performed human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism on a scale un-seen in any other culture - sooo the Spanish arrival and conquest may have brought on still more evils but it ended something bloody and horrible in the extreme.)

All that said, I have friends who are Nideh (Apache, who I allow to hunt on our land) and Dineh (Navajo) and have great respect and interest for things Amerindian, even married a part-Seneca for that matter, however there is a great deal of rubbish of modern invention that is played around with all things Amerindian, one needs to use a good "screen" to sift through the modern garbage that is layered on top of (and becoming thoroughly intermixed in) truly historic and genuine important beliefs and cultural practices. Gold may not have had the level of importance to Amerindians that it had/has to Europeans, but it was important in other ways - remember "tears of the Sun" etc.

As to the odds of someone finding a cache of treasure in the Superstitions - well how would you define "treasure"? If you mean stacks of gold bars, I would place the odds pretty long, if you mean a lost, rich gold mine which is historically documented, then the odds are NOT so long. If it turned out to be within the Superstitions, then it could not be claimed as a mine, and gold ore is not claimable as "treasure trove" - but there are other legal ways. We tend to think of the government as being our virtual enemy, trying to stop or block us from finding and retrieving treasure or gold, however throughout history, when a find could be proven to exist, time and again the government HAS made special allowances for the treasure or gold etc to be retrieved, even on such un-likely places as within a secret missile base, or Fort Huachucha etc. The government insists on proof, and generally wants HALF, but still even so it is not that bad a deal and you would be able to keep your half legally. So don't look at those hoops to jump through and piles of red tape as an attempt to STOP you, it is an attempt to get you to PROVE IT EXISTS and they WILL generally allow you to retrieve it, when you have proved it exists.

Dave- egos butting heads? I don't think that is what we have been doing, I THINK we have been debating and discussing the stone maps and the legends surrounding them. Some posts have been a bit 'testy' but if we were really 'measuring swords' the discussion would not have survived to nine pages and 12000 hits. People are not entertained by arguments and name-calling after all, but ARE attracted to the exchange of information/lore/history/theories. I hope we can change your view of us!

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

Very well said.

I, somehow, ended up with two copies of the Walker/Bufkin "Historical Atlas of Arizona". I guess I really liked it.

The Franciscans were the first to place missions in Arizona. They were in, what is now, the northeast portion of the state.

It would seem that they had no idea there was a rich mine located near Tumacacori when they inherited it after the Jesuit expulsion. Although they built the present church around 1822, they abandoned it in 1848.

You will notice there is no sign of missions in Apacheria.

Joe