The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[cactusjumper]

Oroblanco,

Everyone has a "right to privacy", but I am not sure how much you can expect when you post a story to a public forum and ask for people's impressions.

I was really more interested in the historical aspect of his posts, as opposed to the Stone Map parts. Everything concerning the Stone Maps true origin and early history is in the realm of fiction rather than fact.

Going public is never a good idea for those who are overly sensitive or thin skinned. From what I have seen so far, I would assume the book will be an historical novel. Nothing wrong with that at all. Azmula has paid his dues and deserves a fair reading. I have been fair in my appraisal of what he has presented so far, and will not change that in the future.

My posts on the LDM Forum are all still available to read. If anyone can quote me as being less than fair on this subject, please copy the offending post and show it here. I will apologize immediately. Can't do any more than that.

Joe

 

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[gollum]

I am fairly sure that when the book comes out, his sources will be made clear.

I don't doubt that the posted stories are just a good teaser for the book.

You all know me pretty well by now, and how I want to know just as badly exactly how Azmula knows the story of his version of the origins of the Stone Maps. He has given me more than enough reason to trust his word so far.

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I have no problem with Azmula's story of the Stone Maps. I also have no doubt he will "authenticate" that story.

My problem has always been the changing of history.....without sources. Many people do that to bolster their conclusions, or to create "authenticity" in their novels. On a personal level, my friend, Ron Feldman comes to mind, but he labels his novels fiction.

The history of the Southwest, Mexico and the Jesuits are some of the best documented historical records to be found on this earth. If Azmula, in his research, has found historical documents which change that history, he will receive nothing but praise from me. If he labels his work fiction, I will also give him the respect he is due.

Some will agree with my take on this subject......others will run from the building with their panties in a bunch. Opinions have a tendency to make those things happen. If you only want positive opinions, it's best to keep your story private.

What I have seen of Azmula's work makes me want to read more. I look forward to reading his book and hope there will be a hardback edition. I will be happy to pay for a signed first edition of that book, although I may need to send someone else for the signature.

Azmula,

If someone comes asking for a "flat signed" copy, you should suspect it is coming to me.

Joe Ribaudo (cj)

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

I agree with you.

Changing history can be a funny thing. The Jesuit History IS some of the best documented there is, with a lot being completely UNDOCUMENTED.

As we have gone back and forth about on the History Hunters Forum, I believe that almost everything regarding Jesuit Mining Operations was left undocumented. The BEST evidence I have seen for this is Gary Oliver's excavations at Camp Loco (Tumacacori). He has a 150,000 cubic foot tailings pile. He has found the shaft at about 12-15 feet deep that was backfilled with surface soil and ash from the smelter. There have been NO documented mines there in recorded history. NEVER a claim filed there (previous to Gery's in about 1985). That means that the only possible mining operation of that size (to leave 150,000 cubic feet of tailings) would have to have been during Spanish Occupation of the area. No Spanish records exist of a mine in that area. What does that leave? A secret mine of immense size less than 1.5 miles from the Assistencia de Tumacacori. Can you REALLY say that the Jesuits didn't mine? Whose mine could it have been, if not the Jesuits'? Why no record of it? Why go to all the trouble to hide all evidence of it's location? A lot of questions, that I can't find any answer to other than having to do with the Jesuits.

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The Jesuits located their missions where they did for two reasons. First was to be near native populations that were souls to be saved. The other reason was to serve the Spanish, which usually meant miners.

Prehistoric Native Americans were involved in a great deal of mining activity. They worked some areas for hundreds of years andtheir digs were, sometimes, quite extensive.

Because their is no record of the Spanish working the areas you speak of, does not mean you can discount that possibility. The more difficult the terrain, the more likely the mining would not be recorded. Cheating the King out of his share was not that unusual.

A Jesuit Mission near an unrecorded mining location should not be considered suspect. Large native populations equal missions.
They would also be places where you might find Prehistoric mining activity. While the historic and archaeological evidence for this is well accepted, the same evidence has never been found for Jesuit Mining, on any meaningful scale, in Mexico or the Southwest....as far as I know.

I will be happy to provide sources for the above information.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

You are stuck in what you believe, and I know there is no changing it, but try these:

"In 1850, which was just after the war with Mexico, the United States Government sent a man named J. Ross Browne to the Tumacacori area to investigate the mining activity. In his report to the US Government, referring to the Tumacacori Mission and Tubac, he wrote, "Tubac had probably 150 silver mines within a radius of 16 miles. None of them have been worked in at least the last 50 years."

"In 1919, Frank "Boss" Pinkley was the man working for the US Government in charge of the ruins by the Virgen de Guadalupe Mine (Camp Loco). (A quick aside here; I have been asked by a few people why I state that the original Tumacacori Mission House is at Camp Loco and not where it is now. Statements made by Pinkley are some of my main reasons for this). Pinkley stated that the "Mission in the Mountains" was built near what he believed were the ruins of an ancient city: "Scattered over a long red mesa at the city, are large numbers of markings which, according to local Indians, are markers for where the Aztecs buried their treasures in 1521." Pinkley was a distinguished man with impeccable credentials. Here is a link to an article about him:

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/sontag/pinkley.htm

Now, if Pinkley was right (and I think he was). The "Mission in the Mountains" he refers to is Tumacacori. This would mean that the original mission house was near the base of the cliff where the tailings pile is. No Joe, The Virgen de Guadalupe and her sister mines (Opatas, and Pura Concepcion) were the property of, and worked under the direction of the Jesuit fathers of the Tumacacori Mission.

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I assume you meant J. Ross Browne.

I am stuck on the historical evidence concerning Tumacacori. You have not offered anything to support your theory, other than what you "think". Until someone comes up with something a bit more substantial, I will stick with known history.

I used to believe in Jesuit Treasure but doubt it now. I would like to be proven wrong.

Joe

 

[gollum]

OOOOOOPS TYPO. All better now.

"You have not offered anything to support your theory..."

I think the fact that Pinkley (who was in charge of most of the monuments in SoAz) states the Mission in the Mountains (Tumacacori) is at the Camp Loco location (at the base of the cliff where the Virgen de Guadalupe is buried), should be more than enough for most folks to understand that if the mission is less than about 500 feet from a mine, that mine would MOST LIKELY be owned and operated by the Mission Owners.

For those unfamiliar with the area, here is a picture of just how close the ruins of the original mission house are to where the mine was.

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

And here is another picture of the site (from ground level.

Joe,

Do you really think that the mine could have been a secret from the original mission?

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Nice pictures.

I don't know how much you know about Frank Pinkley, but I know a bit about the man's history. I also have the private letters, journals and writings of J. Ross Browne by, Lina Fergusson Browne.

Pinkley was based at the Casa Grande and was responsible for "natural, archaeological, and historical parks within a fifteen-hundred mile radius" of that place. At the time, there was a tremendous battle taking place between the NPS and the USFS for control of vast areas of land. Pinkley was in the middle of that fight.

Neither side was above making false claims to support their contentions that they were best qualified to be stewards of that land.

Have you personally seen where Pinkley claims the site you have found was a mission, or that it was the real Tumacacori? What archaeological work has been done on the site? Why isn't the burial place of "The Virgin de Guadalupe" a protected site? The same question could be asked of the "Mission" and the "mine". What type of ore was being mined?

Here are the sites that Pinkley actually claimed were within his area:

"Archaeological ruins, a Mormon fort, a Spanish mission, and the limestone caverns of Carlsbad." No mention of a second Tumacacori. Can you supply a source for that claim? Yes or no would suffice, as I understand that might be a sensitive area.

The legends that abound in the Southwest, outnumber the realities by a bunch. The site you have found is more than interesting, but assuming a history/name for it, without historic documentation, seems premature.

"Do you really think that the mine could have been a secret from the original mission?"

What is there about the site that labels it a "mission"? Who's mission was it? What evidence has been found to indicate a native population inhabited the place? Where are the stones to indicate a wall higher than what is in your picture?

The information in quotes comes from "On Rims and Ridges" by, Hal K. Rothman. You might want to take a look at it for a better perspective on Pinkley and the events that surrounded the man.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

author=cactusjumper
I used to believe in Jesuit Treasure but doubt it now. I would like to be proven wrong.Joe
***********

HOLA Cactus jumper: (don't slip, I did once)

As for Jesuit mining, I suggest that you go to "theTayopa legend", just above the LDM thread in here, and read it, plus go to "http://Historyhuntersinternational.org" and review the Tayopa legend there.

The Jesuits "were" involved in mining and other international plots. I will prove this when I finish excavating Tayopa.

Tropical Tramp

 

[cactusjumper]

T.T.,

I have been to both sites and read them....start to finish. I saw nothing to prove the Jesuits were involved.

I will wait for you to finish your excavation for further comment.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[CuMiner]

University of Arizona , Books of the Southwest , Arizona Historical Society, Tucson, Arizona.

Arizona As It Is, The Coming Country.

Published by Hurd and Houghton, Cambridge Riverside Press, Boston, Ma. 1877

by Hiram C. Hodge, Southwest and Arizona Territory Historian and Author.

Chapter X (10) Mineral Lands, Mines and Mining. Page 61


THE mines of Arizona, varied and numberless, are no doubt the sources of the future wealth of the Territory, and consist of gold, silver, copper, lead, iron, coal, salt, and perhaps of other valuable minerals. These mines, especially those of the precious metals, and of copper and lead, are of wonderful extent and richness, and are destined at no distant day to astonish the world by the immensity of their product.
A full description of the different mineral belts of the country, of the locations made, and of the mines already opened, would fill volumes, and therefore will not be attempted in this work. An outline and partial description alone can be given, leaving the subject to be fully written up in the future by some one having more time, and more competent to the task.

Mines of gold and silver were known to exist in what is now Arizona two hundred years or more since, and some successful workings were carried on by the old Jesuit priests, who first explored the Territory, and who employed Mexican and Indian laborers.

 

[cactusjumper]

CU,

Are you offering this quote as "documentation" that the Jesuits engaged in mining in Arizona? It seems to me, that the most important part of the chapter is this:

"An outline and partial description alone can be given, leaving the subject to be fully written up in the future by some one having more time, and more competent to the task."

Hiram questions his own competency in this subject. Would you argue the point with him? He states that the Jesuits employed Mexican and Indian laborers.......Mexican laborers Wonder why that bit of the legend did not catch on.

Would you say that Hiram was in the "mainstream" of other Historians of that era, and on this subject? Can you quote a few more?

Please don't take this personal, as it's only a discussion of history, and the "facts" that are presented.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

CU,

"The Peralta family which had been living at Tubac Arizona in 1775, split, with one branch of the family going with the Anza expedition to California, one branch going east into the New Mexico territory (St. John's Arizona today) and one branch staying at Tubac and the haciendas to the south around Cumpas Sonora. The assumption that every Peralta left Tubac for California with Anza is preposterous."

As usual, your (historically) on the money here.

I believe the only Peraltas to make the trip with De Anza, were the family of Gabriel Peralta. They included his wife, Francisca Manuela Valenzuela, his two sons, Juan & Luis and daughter Gertrudis. They made the trip to Monterey, California.

Not many people know their history like you.

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[cactusjumper T.T.,I have been to both sites and read them....start to finish. I saw nothing to prove the Jesuits were involved. I will wait for you to finish your excavation for further comment.Good luck,Joe
*********
HI lost balance while jumping over cactus, and whose posterior secton of his lamented anatomy now looks like a hedgehog / porcupine.

I have to agree on no positive evidence openly presentable, YET! That will be an uphill thing since the Jesuits still deny any involvement in mining, despite many of their members having been in charge of many of the major mines in Mexico - records exist in Mexico city if you wish to verify.

Remember most missions were quite small in the early days, many no more than a single room with a small addition. and were constructed of Adobe, except for the base. Prob nothing remains to any extent today. Most ceremonies were held outside when practical.

The series of missions that they created to leap frog metal to Matamorros for shipment to Rome were all quite small. Many did not even have a native Indian population to support them and were alloted the necessary labor from other similar missions, not from the regular ones..

I apparently have sold my Escondida/Magia mines for a very nice sum and so will be getting back into the harness with an ultalight aircraft to finish up tracking the transshipment missions. I will go for the Maverick because of it's short field and slow flight characteristics

http://Murphyair.com/index

Obviously for many reasons I cannot post certain data which proves conclusively that they did mine ---. yet.

A side note, where did the money come from to build the huge churches / Missions at Tumacacori and San javier deTubac? Most missions were struggling to exist, some showed a small profit but ?

Tropical Tramp alias Don Jose de la Mancha

 

[CuMiner]

I don't believe Colonel Hodge was questioning his own competancy on the question of Jesuits or indian and Mexican labor.

The first part of that very sentence/paragraph states: "A full description of the different mineral belts of the country, of the locations made, and of the mines already opened, would fill volumes, and therefore, will not be attempted in this work. ..... An outline and partial description alone can be given, leaving the subject to be fullly written up in the future by some one having more time and more competant to the task."

I read that to mean Col. Hodge was talking about the tremendous "volumes" it would take to describe the mines and locations and methods, not the Jesuits or the labor issue. Hodge was saying he didn't want to include such a volume of that information in his work and was leaving it for someone else to take on that task. He was not calling himself incompetant. In fact, Col. Hodge does not mention the Jesuits or the indians or the labor issue until the next sentence / paragraph, so it would be unlikely to say he was talking about Jesuits in that particular passage.

Colonel Hodge was one of the most respected Southwest Historians of his time. A testimonial to his published work includes some fairly important and able citizens and historians themselves. Much of what we know today about the Southwest/Arizona history comes from these gentlemen. This testimonial appears in the Arizona Historical Society and is included in his work on this subject. Many of the most prominant Arizona and Southwest historians used Colonel Hodges research and work in their own research and histories. Thomas Farish, James McClintock, and James Barney to site just a few.


DURING the years 1874, 1875, and 1876, Col. H. C. Hodge has made a thorough tour and exploration of Arizona. His articles on the country, descriptive of its mineral, agricultural, grazing, and other resources, and of its climate, scenery, and prehistoric ruins, published in different sections of the Union, have been truthful, and more full and complete than any heretofore given the public, and believing him to be an honest, truthful, and reliable gentleman, we commend him and his writings and lectures to the people of the United States, with the assurance that full confidence may be given to his reports on Arizona.
ARIZONA, October, 1876.
(Signed.)
A. P. K. SAFFORD, Governor A. T.
H. S. STEVENS, Delegate in Congress from A. T.
AUGUST V. KAUTZ, Commanding Military Department of A. T.
F. H. GOODWIN, United States Marshal of A. T.
G. S. VOSBURG, Adjutant General of A. T.
COLES BASHFORD, late Secretary of A. T.
P. R. BRADY, member of Council, A. T.
A. E. DAVIS, member of Council, A. T.
J. P. HARGRAVE, member of Council, A. T.
JOHN G. CAMPBELL, member of Council, A. T.
J. M. REDONDO, member of Council, A. T.
JOHN T. ALSOP, speaker House of Representatives, A. T.
A. L. MOELLER, member House of R., A. T.
C. P. HEAD, member House of R., A. T.
S. R. DE LONG, member House of R., A. T.
SAMUEL PURDY, JR., member House of R., A. T.
JAMES P. BULL, member House of R., A. T.
GIDEON BROOKS, member House of R., A. T.
THOMAS CARDIS, United States Collector Internal Revenue, A. T.
P. R. TULLY, Territorial Treasurer, A. T.
LEVI RUGGLES, Register United States Land Office, Florence, A. T.
M. S. STILES, Receiver Land Office and United States Disbursing Agent, Florence, A. T.
C. H. BRINLEY, United States Deputy Collector of Customs, Yuma, A. T.
T. J. BUTLER, Editor “Miner,” Prescott, A. T. WM. J. BERRY, Editor “Sentinel,” Yuma, A. T.
JOHN W. LEONARD, Assistant Editor “Enterprise,” Prescott, A. T.
BRIGGS GOODRICH, District Attorney, First District, A. T.
H. B. SUMMERS, District Attorney, Pinal County, A. T.
H. H. CARTER, Judge of Probate, Yavapai County, A. T.
H. N. ALEXANDER, Judge of Probate, Yuma County, A. T.
WILLIAM A. HANCOCK, District Attorney, Maricopa County, A. T.
GEORGE D. KENDALL, Mayor of Prescott, A. T.
C. A. LUKE, Ex-mayor of Prescott, A. T.
EDWARD F. BOWERS, Sheriff, Yavapai County, A. T.
WILLIAM WILKERSON, Clerk of Court and Recorder, Yavapai County, A. T.
H. C. MEADOR, Deputy, Yavapai County, A. T.
S. W. CARPENTER, Recorder, Pima County, A. T.
JOHN J. DIVINE, Recorder, Pinal County, A. T.
O. F. TOWNSEND, Recorder, Yuma County, A. T.
JAY G. KELLY, Assayer, Prescott, A. T.
BLAKE & COMPANY, Prescott, A. T.

 

[cactusjumper]

CU,

Your defense of Hodge is comendable, but unnecessary. His reports of what he observed in Arizona are not in question. What is questionable is how he concludes that Jesuits were responsible for any mining in Arizona, without sourcing his material.

Hodge wrote these remarks over 100 years after the Jesuits were expelled from the New World. Before accepting his conclusion, I would want to know what evidence he observed in reaching it. Because he was not there, he needed some source/evidence to convince him of this "fact".

He cites no evidence, so the only thing we are left with is verbal sources as the written record that was available to him, is also available to us. The logical conclusion is that he was told the "facts" by others. While they receive no credit, I don't believe he made the story up out of whole cloth.

If you want to assume he did see evidence or had credible sources, that's fine. I would rather not make that assumption with what is available to us.

Joe

 

[CuMiner]

Thats a fair response.

A large part of the 28 chapters that make up the core of Hodge's work are both annotated and referenced although everything he wrote in the 28 chapters is not referenced. He wrote an extensive chapter on the Jesuit missions concerning their placement that is one of the best works that has ever been done on the subject. It would serve that whoever Col. Hodge referenced would also have to show us their reference, and that reference show us their reference, and that reference show us theirs back to Adam whom we could simply call a liar as a last resort if that still didn't satisfy our viewpoint. Hodge wrote his remarks over 100 years after the Jesuit expulsion but that makes his remarks over 100 years closer to the expulsion than we are, if we want to use that as a test of truthfulness.

I'm not trying to say there was or wasn't Jesuit aided mining in New Spain. I am just pointing out a very respected Arizona historian (at least by some people) , had a different viewpoint, and he was not alone in that opinion.

 

[lgadbois]

"In 1919, Frank "Boss" Pinkley was the man working for the US Government in charge of the ruins by the Virgen de Guadalupe Mine (Camp Loco). (A quick aside here; I have been asked by a few people why I state that the original Tumacacori Mission House is at Camp Loco and not where it is now. Statements made by Pinkley are some of my main reasons for this). Pinkley stated that the "Mission in the Mountains" was built near what he believed were the ruins of an ancient city: "Scattered over a long red mesa at the city, are large numbers of markings which, according to local Indians, are markers for where the Aztecs buried their treasures in 1521." Pinkley was a distinguished man with impeccable credentials."

Frank Pinkley had a lot of geography to manage. He, as well as many others, was fascinated by the size an scope of the development at the Guadalupe Mine. If you have ever been to the site you will note that it is not located on a long red mesa, but it is in a steeply sloped canyon. The Camp Loco site does not have Aztec glyphs or other noticeable markings that predate the mine's operation. I don't know of the site of his "ancient city." The site he may have been referencing is to the east of the old mission, rather than to the west.

The Camp Loco site and mine was operated during the middle 1700s by Spanish colonials. The mine may have originally been operated by a small village at the location. The small visita may have been visited once by Kino, as there is a vague reference to a similar location in his diary. One of the waybills that found it's way back to Mexico City was a multi-language document written by the Padres of San Roman. These men were not Jesuit missionaries.
They mined silver from this mine. They were finally driven out by the Apache. Cached silver bars have been recovered in the area.

An expedition was formed at Mexico City in 1811 in attempts to find some of the San Roman mines. The group was also interested in locating the old Sopori Mine. The results of this expedition are unknown. It has been speculated that the Guadalupe Mine and Sopori Mine may have been the same mine. There is no basis for that conclusion. J. Ross Browne's comment regarding the number of mines in the area was way short of true. Southern Arizona had thousands of mineral locations that were known by first the Indians, and then by the Missionaries and Colonials.

Gary Don Oliver is still attempting to find the main tunnel at Camp Loco. We know the shaft is much larger than what has been exposed because of the size of the tailing pile. Gary told me, "I just want to see what is in the tunnel."

In 1945, Norman G. Wallace wrote a story titled, "Mystery of Cerro Ruido." It can be found in the Arizona Highways magazine, vol. 21, #10. It is the story of a young prospector that finds a mine that contained silver and gold bars. His partner from Tucson worked during the week, but visited his camp on weekends. Jamison told him of his discovery, and gave him a roll of film with pictures of the stone building and the mine opening. The young man was never seen again, as his campsite was scattered and destroyed by a terrible thunderstorm and flash flood. His partner developed the film and was amazed at the pictures that were taken.

Thomas Penfield invited Wallace on to his TV show in the 1960s to tell more of the story. Wallace said that the information came from an engineer friend that had moved away, and he didn't know anything more than what he had told in the story. He refused to give the correct name of the prospector, his partner, or of the engineer. Penfield was skeptical and thought that something wasn't quite right. Penfield had done his homework and had searched the Arizona papers for stories about the lost hiker. No verification could be found.

I interviewed Wallace in 1975. He stuck to his story, but then he made a mistake. He told me that he was a retired civil engineer. He worked for the railroads throughout the Southwest and Mexico. He was in charge of surveying and laying out the railbeds. He would walk the entire route to see where the obstructions needed to be dealt with, and where the trestles should be built. And where ever he went, he carried an 8 x 10 Graphlex camera. During his career he had taken literally thousands of black & white shots of the grades he had laid out, and of scenic places in the areas where he worked. I asked if he had any pictures from the Cerro Ruido area. He proudly pulled out a labeled box of negatives from the area and showed them to me. The negatives for the pictures used in the magazine story were in that group. He had taken the pictures himself with his 8 x 10. The story supposedly took place around 1921. If it actually happened, it was more like 1931.

In letters I exchanged with Wallace he sent me a map of the supposed area where Jamison had been hiking. It was south into Mexico from the end of the road in Walker Canyon. Is the story true? Did Jamison find the Purisma Mine? This is the same area where Milton Rose and his partner recovered gold bars from a snake infested mine. Rose wasn't interested in the silver bars at the time and blew the shaft closed after he was done.

Other writers have retold the story of the Mountain of Noise. The "grasshopper library" grows........