The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Oroblanco]

UGH Cholla!!! That is a dirty word! That old "jumpin' cactus" moniker is way too accurate! I swear the danged spines are barbed too, hurt like heck taking them out! Pliers are an excellent idea to take along! I think they ought to plant Cholla along the border, if they really want to stop people crossing illegally - but really that would be TOO mean!

Oroblanco

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI the cholla has a barbed spine which is encased in multiple sheaths so when you pull the spine out the outer sheath stays sigh & OUCH!

P.s. Yes BETH, he did blushing

Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI MI BETH, to be honest, he didn't, but "YOU" let the cat out of the bag hehehehe


Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

 

[gollum]

UGH Cholla!!! That is a dirty word! That old "jumpin' cactus" moniker is way too accurate! I swear the danged spines are barbed too, hurt like heck taking them out! Pliers are an excellent idea to take along! I think they ought to plant Cholla along the border, if they really want to stop people crossing illegally - but really that would be TOO mean!

Oroblanco

Hey Roy,

You are right. Cholla are barbed, and they exude a poison. Even if you get one just a tiny bit in your skin, the area around it will be first numbe then sore for a couple of hours.

I third the motion, I HATE CHOLLA!

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Well that explains things - I got a big piece literally stuck to my right leg one particularly windy day in the Chuckwallas, made my leg turn black for days and felt like it was infected - really sore. I had one heck of a time pulling the spines, as they had gone through pant-leg, sock and skin, "stitching" everything together. That darned hunk of cholla really did seem to "jump" up and hit me, though I know it was from the wind.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

Here is a little cholla story that will make you all shudder......

Dale Howard had a horse that was 1/2 Quarter Horse and 1/2 Tennessee Walker. Made so many trips to his claim on Black Top, that the horse knew the way by heart.

One night Dale was riding out, and as usuall, asleep in the saddle. Horse comes up on a rattlesnake.....rears up, and dumps Dale into a bed of cholla. Horse is on top of him with the saddle horn denting his chest. They manage to get upright, Dale gets back in the saddle, after getting as much of the cholla out of his backside as possible, and rides all the way back to Apache Junction.

Dale Howard was one hell of a man.

cj

 

[Oroblanco]

Those danged saddlehorns. I know I have groused/griped about them before, and yes for roping cattle they are a necessity - but for a prospector or treasure hunter, they are nothing but a danger and a nuisance. Those Aussie saddles with NO horn are best for a treasure hunter in my opinion - one has to get used to NOT having a horn to grab on to, but between the bucking rolls and deep seat (high cantle), the crupper and breast straps to hold the saddle secure on steep ground, along with the stirrups that will detach if you are getting dragged, they are much safer. I wish someone would design/invent a saddle for prospectors, incorporate some of the features of the Aussie along with the best features of our western saddles - I sure would buy one. For the time being I will stick to my Aussie though.

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

LOL, we got to see some of your neelde and barbed plant life . my brother pulled the needles out but they did become infected and hert like a bee sting.... he said and it really pist him off because i am not effected by any of them, i just pulled them out and they didnt hert at all and did not get infected at all . LOL i am amuined to poison oak ,suemac ,and ivy,,... have been all my life ...lol ....on the other hand he was not a happy camper...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=mrs.oroblanco
BTW - don't squat by the mother plant, either. They do not come back out through your jeans!!!
*************
SNICKER

TRopical TRamp

 

[the blindbowman]

ya , theres nothing worse than a horny saddle...

 

[Oroblanco]

Good one Blindbowman!!!

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

I posted this question in another forum, so forgive the cross posting.

What is the source of the version of the stone maps being found/stolen/recovered in a mission in Arizpe?

Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Randy, I will do that - I figured you might know!

Oroblanco

PS Okay I went to the site and read Azmula's article, but all I found was this statement:

After learning that a set of stone maps had been
found buried in the floor of the church residence in Arizpe, Sonora
were stolen while being transported to Parral, Chihuahua; then sold
in El Paso made me believe the two sets of stone maps were actually
the same maps. After I learned of the treasure hunting background of
the Tumlinson Family, I visited the supposed location that the maps
were found and decided there was definitely more to the discovery of
the maps than has been reported in the past.

Because of where the maps were actually found and because the
Jesuits were in charge of the mission system of Pimeria Alta, I
decided to do more research in Sonora

As many people know, I
believe that the stone maps were created by the Jesuits to locate one
of the treasure caches they were unable to send back to the Vatican.

So I failed to find where this alternate version of how the stone maps came to light originated - is there another article I missed? Thank you in advance,

Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

As I mentioned in my answer on the LDM Forum, Azmula does not take kindly to questions about his sources for the "facts" he provides to the less informed members of the Dutch Hunting Community.

There can be little doubt that Azmula has done a great deal of research on this subject and I have always given him kudos for his work. Unfortunately, I may have pressed him a bit too much for sources, especially for the story you mentioned.

The "Apache Kid" is quite close to Azmula and saw the whole affair in a different light than what I have presented here. For someone who believes the "Peralta Stone Maps" are a complete hoax, he took my questioning of sources quite seriously. It has progressed into quite a brouhaha.

I would predict that a "source" will not be forthcoming, and you may want to move-on.

Randy was the correct person to answer your question, as he has met Azmula and believes in the maps. I would guess he will not be able to provide you with a "source" either.....other than Azmula.

Good luck and good hunting,

Joe

 

[azmula]

Randy,
Thank you.

azmula

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Don't believe I have ever said anything different, so I would agree with everything you have said.

It would appear it's no big secret who his source is, as he has (it seems) told you. That just shows what a "great guy and a stand up citizen" you are. That means Azmula and I agree on, at least, one thing.

It was never an issue if he chose to reveal his source or not. How do you critique his story, as he requested, without testing it's authenticity?

If I told you the Stone Maps were actually used for paper weights on the desk of Barry Goldwater's father and fell off a wagon while being moved to the family vault in Globe, and I then asked you for your opinion of my story, what would you say? Perhaps.....WOW!!!

Public forums are not the place to post "historical facts", unless you are ready to back them up. Having said that, Azmula's story was a great read. I will be first in line to buy his book.

Joe

 

[gollum]

I agree with Randy that Azmula is a stand up guy.

He has helped me with info (most of which was independently verified later). He was one of the sources of some of my Stone maps Info. While wanting himself to stay a little mysterious to the folks online, I have no reason to doubt anything he says.

Joe,

I can understand your point as well. After all the chicanery that's been pulled regarding the Stone Maps and the LDM over the years, it is quite difficult to take ANYTHING ANYBODY says as gospel without something hard to back it up. I usually take anything anybody tells me with a grain of salt. Once they have proven themselves to me, I tend to give their unsubstantiated statementsx a lot more weight than I would anybody else's. Azmula is one of those people.

I will also be in that line to buy his book.

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I have all nine parts of Azmula's series, as posted on the LDM site. At the end he says this: "We hope this series of articles has given you an new insight into the Jesuit Treasure of the Superstition Mountains and that you have in some way enjoyed the explanation of our hypothesis."

I believe it is the word "hypothesis" that should be kept in mind while reading the series. That seems especially true when he dips into anything "Jesuit", such as: He (Father Rojas) knew the end of Jesuit occupation of Pimeria Alta was coming to an end, so he waited for the Expulsion of Jesuits in July of 1767. There was only one priest that was treated as a prisoner of war, Rojas.....". There is a great deal of "hypothesis" in that passage.

Not having done the extensive research that Azmula has, I realize that he may prove every statement in his series. I look forward to that time.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Gee, ask a simple question, which seems quite fair to ask for a source of a whole different version of events, and one becomes a member of the "less informed" Dutch-hunter community.

Azmula has a right to privacy and to protect his sources (and their privacy) but an anonymous source is NOT the very best sort to substantiate something. Especially if one intends on publishing a book on the subject, you can COUNT on people wanting to verify and check your facts, in some detail. If sources cannot be verified, the content will be in doubt.

If the alternate version of the origin of the stone maps is TRUE, this raises still more problems for the stones! Why? Because it means Tumlinson WAS lying, and Mitchell too, and they published a lying account of the origin of the stones in a national magazine. So what else is a lie? Can we believe anything that came from Tumlinson or Mitchell? The Arizpe mission origin-story raises even MORE problems too! The stones might even be demanded to be returned to the mission in Arizpe, as stolen property of historical importance. See the problems?

Oroblanco