cactusjumper
Gold Member
Aurum,
Only one thing?
cj
Only one thing?
cj
The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?
- Thread starter Oroblanco
- Start date
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
cactusjumper link=?
I
Everyone manages to misquote the "facts" now and then.....everyone.
************
Wrong again ! "I AM PERFECT", ask Gollum or me if you have any doubts, stay away rom my tiger though, she is prejudiced,.
Saint Tropical Tramp
I
Everyone manages to misquote the "facts" now and then.....everyone.
************
Wrong again ! "I AM PERFECT", ask Gollum or me if you have any doubts, stay away rom my tiger though, she is prejudiced,.
Saint Tropical Tramp
cactusjumper
Gold Member
STT,
I understand most of what you said except for: "stay away rom my tiger".
Once again, I stand corrected.
cj
I understand most of what you said except for: "stay away rom my tiger".
Once again, I stand corrected.
cj
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
[=cactusjumper : "stay away rom my tiger".
Once again, I stand corrected.
*********
My wife, "no man is a king in his own castle - nor SainT" snifff.
Tropical Tramp x Saint
cj
[/quote]
Once again, I stand corrected.
*********
My wife, "no man is a king in his own castle - nor SainT" snifff.
Tropical Tramp x Saint
cj
[/quote]
gollum
Gold Member
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Hey Jose,
Sounds like you take your marching orders from two in your household!
1. Mrs. St. Curry
2. Your toilet paper eating burro (it seems you had as much control over it as you do #1)!
Best,
Mike
Sounds like you take your marching orders from two in your household!
1. Mrs. St. Curry
2. Your toilet paper eating burro (it seems you had as much control over it as you do #1)!
Best,
Mike
cactusjumper
Gold Member
cactusjumper
Gold Member
B,
Interesting comment, since the Stone Map Priest has been likened to a witch by many. Have you spent some time on the Stone Maps, or are you just following the thread?
cj
Interesting comment, since the Stone Map Priest has been likened to a witch by many. Have you spent some time on the Stone Maps, or are you just following the thread?
cj
cactusjumper
Gold Member
B,
With that much time, I assume you have come to some conclusions of your own. It would be interesting to hear what you think about them.
ck
With that much time, I assume you have come to some conclusions of your own. It would be interesting to hear what you think about them.
ck
cactusjumper
Gold Member
B,
"Here it is: How did someone/anyone, come to the decision that these stones were related to the Lost Dutchman or the Peraltas? There are several stories of lost mines in the general area, and I just do not understand how that connection was made at all?"
There was a long time where I believed the Stone Maps showed the location of the LDM, which would tie them directly to the legend of the Peralta's.
The Stone Map Trail goes over the only true "lofty ridge", that being the main mountain, and drops "into a long canyon running north (West Boulder) and finally to a tributary canyon very deep and rocky......" When you get into West Boulder and proceed north, you will find a canyon on the east side that climbs back towards the southeast and tops out on the ridge that separates East and West Boulder Canyons.
That canyon is just south of Willow Spring, which is where Ruth camped and also where P.C. Bicknell camped while searching for the LDM.
The Stone Maps have an X just to the west of that canyon and close to the top of the ridge. In that place, there is an old mine which is sealed with rocks.
Beyond that, there are many stories and "maps" which, if read correctly, point to the same place. In order to make that comparison, you only need to use Superstition Peak as the Picacho shown on those maps, instead of Weaver's Needle.
It would take a lot of ink to enumerate the many stories that place the LDM and the Stone Maps in the same place. As it turns out, the LDM is not there.
cj
"Here it is: How did someone/anyone, come to the decision that these stones were related to the Lost Dutchman or the Peraltas? There are several stories of lost mines in the general area, and I just do not understand how that connection was made at all?"
There was a long time where I believed the Stone Maps showed the location of the LDM, which would tie them directly to the legend of the Peralta's.
The Stone Map Trail goes over the only true "lofty ridge", that being the main mountain, and drops "into a long canyon running north (West Boulder) and finally to a tributary canyon very deep and rocky......" When you get into West Boulder and proceed north, you will find a canyon on the east side that climbs back towards the southeast and tops out on the ridge that separates East and West Boulder Canyons.
That canyon is just south of Willow Spring, which is where Ruth camped and also where P.C. Bicknell camped while searching for the LDM.
The Stone Maps have an X just to the west of that canyon and close to the top of the ridge. In that place, there is an old mine which is sealed with rocks.
Beyond that, there are many stories and "maps" which, if read correctly, point to the same place. In order to make that comparison, you only need to use Superstition Peak as the Picacho shown on those maps, instead of Weaver's Needle.
It would take a lot of ink to enumerate the many stories that place the LDM and the Stone Maps in the same place. As it turns out, the LDM is not there.
cj
cactusjumper
Gold Member
B,
At first I was unsure what they were connected to. Eventually a Jesuit Treasure became suspect. After a great deal of research into Jesuit history, I realized how unlikely that was. As the years passed, and I examined the area, other possibilities surfaced. At this point, a hoax seems probable.
Not that there was no treasure, but a treasure removed long ago, and the maps created using their old hiding places. Have to admit.....it's been a great puzzle.
cj
At first I was unsure what they were connected to. Eventually a Jesuit Treasure became suspect. After a great deal of research into Jesuit history, I realized how unlikely that was. As the years passed, and I examined the area, other possibilities surfaced. At this point, a hoax seems probable.
Not that there was no treasure, but a treasure removed long ago, and the maps created using their old hiding places. Have to admit.....it's been a great puzzle.
cj
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
- 30
i did the same thing in a diffrent way than both of you ! i saw something and i dont under stand what it was and how it got there , yet i now have enough data to relocate what i have seen with my own two eyes .. as far as the peralta stones and all the other clues and data of these legends they play no part in my research . yet i can out right relate them all to what i have found and the 5 sites i am now researching ...
two of the 5 sites are dirrectly related to two or more of the maps and stones locations ..
i know for a fact that what i have found dose in fact fit 100% of the dutchnmans clues in the legend yet what clues are real and what are misleeding ..
its funny how the clues can fit so many diffrent places some what but only fit 100% to one given location !
i did talk with a man that has spent 35 years walking almost every trail in the mts and has never gone where i have in 4 days ...
i am creative artistic with autistic tendences abourderline savant.i dont need to think about what i am doing or seeing i just know it , anything out of the normal nature of the area screams out at me , i see layers and layers of human sign waiting for me to define each layer one at a time . i saw human foot prints , that would not be abnormal if they were not bare human footed prints ... very very old indain is my guess ...maybe a trail of crying ...sad spirits of sorrow....
maybe its not what we find its what we hope to know and can we see beyond our sight .. i was blind and i now value everything i see .yet i miss very little ...do not mis trust your eye but question what you see and why ...
i learn to see with my mind and not with my eyes . logic has given me sight when i had none ...
now i hope to use my gift to see what other can not .... day after day people have walked past one of my sites with in ft of it yet a man that has walked past it dozens of times was shocked when i pointed it out to him !
i can taste the wind and smell the years past and feel the shadows reaching the ground ... no there is a LDM and there is a jesuit treasue trove in the tunnle..
there are dead bodies in the tunnle and graves at the hiden camp area ,,,,
i need only collect the evidence and prove it ...
two of the 5 sites are dirrectly related to two or more of the maps and stones locations ..
i know for a fact that what i have found dose in fact fit 100% of the dutchnmans clues in the legend yet what clues are real and what are misleeding ..
its funny how the clues can fit so many diffrent places some what but only fit 100% to one given location !
i did talk with a man that has spent 35 years walking almost every trail in the mts and has never gone where i have in 4 days ...
i am creative artistic with autistic tendences abourderline savant.i dont need to think about what i am doing or seeing i just know it , anything out of the normal nature of the area screams out at me , i see layers and layers of human sign waiting for me to define each layer one at a time . i saw human foot prints , that would not be abnormal if they were not bare human footed prints ... very very old indain is my guess ...maybe a trail of crying ...sad spirits of sorrow....
maybe its not what we find its what we hope to know and can we see beyond our sight .. i was blind and i now value everything i see .yet i miss very little ...do not mis trust your eye but question what you see and why ...
i learn to see with my mind and not with my eyes . logic has given me sight when i had none ...
now i hope to use my gift to see what other can not .... day after day people have walked past one of my sites with in ft of it yet a man that has walked past it dozens of times was shocked when i pointed it out to him !
i can taste the wind and smell the years past and feel the shadows reaching the ground ... no there is a LDM and there is a jesuit treasue trove in the tunnle..
there are dead bodies in the tunnle and graves at the hiden camp area ,,,,
i need only collect the evidence and prove it ...
OP
OP
Oroblanco
Gold Member
- Jan 21, 2005
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Blindbowman wrote:
no there is a LDM and there is a jesuit treasue trove in the tunnle..
there are dead bodies in the tunnle and graves at the hiden camp area ,,,,
I have asked you this before, perhaps an oversight on your part but did not see an answer.
1: Why do you believe there are Jesuits involved?
2: Why do you believe there are dead bodies in a tunnel?
Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
no there is a LDM and there is a jesuit treasue trove in the tunnle..
there are dead bodies in the tunnle and graves at the hiden camp area ,,,,
I have asked you this before, perhaps an oversight on your part but did not see an answer.
1: Why do you believe there are Jesuits involved?
2: Why do you believe there are dead bodies in a tunnel?
Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
- 30
Oroblanco said:
how many life size statues of gold were lost known to be in a tunnle ?
i only found to acounts of this type . one was the 1959 sighting in the supersititions ,the secound was tim haydocks legend of the jesuit treasure trove both match the same facts and clues . both could be the same legend . both happen to take place in a tunnle , both are gold statue guarding the tunnle near the entrence ...both stated to hold a jesuit treasure trove . one has a list . and one acount tells of a eye sighting of a statue that could very well be the custody or statue in the other acount yet one was gold filled with gold dust and the other was gold and silver with golden glimmer from placer EL paramo ...
now think about what i just stated ,
the sighting in 1959 , he says . i saw a life size statue not only made of gold plate but filled with gold dust .
the jesuit list (one large custody with silver bracket with gold glimmer from placer EL paramo ) now for one secound think about what it says ... a large statue with gold glimmer , is the word glimmer a jesuit word for gold dust ?
is so how many large statue filled with gold dust do you think the jesuit truefully had hiden in the mouth of a tunnle.,...
look down the page in the tim haydock legend , the list reads placer from EL paramo ,,.... this is placer gold . or fine gold or gold dust . could a man with a broken leg in pain missteak fine placer gold for gold dust ? look again at what the custody weigh . 1 arroba about 25 lbs . you know why . because they weighed the staue with out the dust in it , filling the staute with dust let them move the statue with out damgeing it !
say i am right and the tayopa is the tunnle under the LDN pit . we know one acount says kino was shown the pit . was the tunnle there at the time and was he shown the tunnle or the cave that looks like a tunnle ?
if so kino knew the location of the tunnle when the jesuit mule train went into the mts to hide the treasure trove of 240 pack mules ...
so lets look at it as a over all veiw .. the jesuits had to hide their treasure troves kino knowns the location and knows it will be safe there ... both treasure troves are about the same size .and one object matches dirrectly not only in what it was but where it was put . ...
we have the peralta ruth map showing both a pit and a tunnle.
we have the peralta stones showing both a pit and a tunnle .
we statements or acounts stateing tunnle and pit relate . i saw what could very well be the pit . and the tunnle and pit relate to the dutchman legend as well ..
i have stood by my opioion that kino made the map and the stones , IMHO he was the one the placed the treasure trove in the tunnle .he knew the pit was there and we can prove that from the acount of the indains telling him about the blowout . so here is a man that is the leader of the jesuits , he knew where the tunnle and the pit were and had some leadership in the jesuits . he had the wisdom of the mts and the controll of the treasure troves ....
and he was a map maker ...
we know he placed a cross apone the weavers needle at one point ..
there is just to many common factors between these acounts ...
did kino betray the spainish and help the apache over take the tunnle mine ... did the indain let kino go because he had helped them in the past yet killed the rest of the jesuit and the spainish to show him what would happen to him if he told anyone ...
is that why kino lived out his last days in rest ...with out going back ...he would have been seen as causeing the death of hunderds as well as his own jesuits ...
how many apache were there that lived threw the massacre of the spainish ...and in one acount i spoke of the legend come togather again in a clear vission of reality ..
explaning how the massacre happend and why and what happend to the bodyies ...
could these acounts be one legend !lost peices of one legend and they took on a path of their own . and could be part of a far bigger legend than we know of .
the fact remains . could there be any truth to any of these peices of legends that subport these findings ..
the answer is yes
i saw what imho was the ldm pit 1979. that matches the tunnle and the pit
a man saw a statue in a tunnle 1959 .IMHO the tunnle he found was the same tunnle under the pit
the peralta stones show a tunnle and a pit
the peralta ruth map shows a tunnle and a pit
the jesuit treasure trove was placed in a tunnle .,IMHO the tunnle in the peralta ruth map ...
the acount of the massacre stated tunnle and jesuit treasure trove
kino knew about a tunnle and a pit
i have found a tunnle and a pit in the same relationship as the tunnle and the pit in these acounts
how could i draw any other concluession ....
i dont want to miss any clues or evidence so i am takeing my time . yet i already know the out come of my research ...
could it be there yes ,is it there lets find out !
i am 100% sure i have found the rock house ...the hiden cave is near by ... the nephew site is near by .the tunnle is there . i did not have the equipment to inspect the tunnle safely . the pit fits the maps and the acounts . all acounts dont ask me to explan that . you know i wont ... can i prove what i stated yes . to scott woods when the time is right ...
as i see it the people that described the clues in the legend had as much to do with it becomeing a legend as the legend did it self ...
even parts of a real legend the size of this one could be misteaken for legends of their own . thus the confussion ..
my dad told me if you beleave you are in the right than there is no shame in fighting for what you beleave in win or lose . . i never lost a fight
157 and 0 . will the LDM be the frist , i dont think so ...because i am right !
OP
OP
Oroblanco
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Greetings Blindbowman,
You have mentioned in your response a particular term repeatedly, -legend- and if you are willing to pursue legends, more power to you. I don't think the search for the LDM is a "fight" as much as it is a mystery, so "winning" is really solving and finding the mine. Your only "opponent" is the difficulty of locating a particularly well hidden mine. Not sure I would be willing to look for things depicted on treasure maps, or follow up on legends of golden statues filled with gold dust - from a placer mine many miles south in Mexico but if you are willing, good luck and good hunting!
The evidence for Jesuits in the Superstitions is pretty danged thin, I sure have never been able to find any trace of any Jesuits in the Superstitions, much less Father Kino personally; legends are another thing - most legends have a basis in fact, but...when we come to the legends of the Superstitions, some seem to have been very much "transplanted" from other locations. Ask yourself this, if a person found a gold statue, if that person survived long enough to get out of the mountains (broken leg or not) why on earth would that person NOT go right back in to the mountains and RETRIEVE that golden statue, as soon as he or she were healed up enough to go? I hope your expedition is not depending on finding gold statues to pay the expenses!
Either way, whether chasing 'legends' or tracking down only verifiable facts, good luck to you and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Oroblanco
You have mentioned in your response a particular term repeatedly, -legend- and if you are willing to pursue legends, more power to you. I don't think the search for the LDM is a "fight" as much as it is a mystery, so "winning" is really solving and finding the mine. Your only "opponent" is the difficulty of locating a particularly well hidden mine. Not sure I would be willing to look for things depicted on treasure maps, or follow up on legends of golden statues filled with gold dust - from a placer mine many miles south in Mexico but if you are willing, good luck and good hunting!
The evidence for Jesuits in the Superstitions is pretty danged thin, I sure have never been able to find any trace of any Jesuits in the Superstitions, much less Father Kino personally; legends are another thing - most legends have a basis in fact, but...when we come to the legends of the Superstitions, some seem to have been very much "transplanted" from other locations. Ask yourself this, if a person found a gold statue, if that person survived long enough to get out of the mountains (broken leg or not) why on earth would that person NOT go right back in to the mountains and RETRIEVE that golden statue, as soon as he or she were healed up enough to go? I hope your expedition is not depending on finding gold statues to pay the expenses!
Either way, whether chasing 'legends' or tracking down only verifiable facts, good luck to you and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Oroblanco
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
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if all the facts put the treasure trove two mts away from where i saw my sighting in 1979 i could care less about the legends or the treasures ... the fact remainss threw 27 1/2 years the location is still where i saw it and threw the years it is plan to see that what i saw is a main peice of these legends ...
would be a kick in nuts to see the LDM and i had never step ft in the mts before that day ....
people have spent 50 years looking in the mts and i havent . i am not sure who had more fun ! lol ...
i can aford to spend little ....lol
i am not chaseing legends i am researching back ground work for my sighting and i want to know what these other sites are and why they are related to what i saw . be it the LDM or the tayopa or a old coke can ... in just the right place ...
what if there is aztec treasure in the tunnle or the jesuit treasure trove for that matter or the indain ruin it self .. history waits for us to make it or notice it is happening....around us .. we only need seek and we shall find ...
i am out right enjoying what i am doing , life is to short to not make the best of it !
would be a kick in nuts to see the LDM and i had never step ft in the mts before that day ....
people have spent 50 years looking in the mts and i havent . i am not sure who had more fun ! lol ...
i can aford to spend little ....lol
i am not chaseing legends i am researching back ground work for my sighting and i want to know what these other sites are and why they are related to what i saw . be it the LDM or the tayopa or a old coke can ... in just the right place ...
what if there is aztec treasure in the tunnle or the jesuit treasure trove for that matter or the indain ruin it self .. history waits for us to make it or notice it is happening....around us .. we only need seek and we shall find ...
i am out right enjoying what i am doing , life is to short to not make the best of it !
the blindbowman
Bronze Member
- Nov 21, 2006
- 1,379
- 30
"a man without greed is a free man"
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Bowman,
Speaking from experience in the Superstitions, I can assure you that you will find many treasures in your search.
Sitting around the campfire on a black night with the stillness broken only by Trickster's challenge of the moon coming up over the mountains, will be an experience you will treasure for the rest of your life.
I have spent many a last night in those mountains sipping hot chocolate with a bit of Butter Shots and topped off with real whipped cream. This would be after the traditional last night meal of 1 1/2" thick slabs of steak cooked over hot coals, Ceasar Salad, Twice Baked Stuffed Potatoes and Broccoli with Cheese Sauce. Desert would have been Fresh Strawberry Shortcake buried in whipped cream.
I gave up backpacking a number of years ago.
Anyway.....done right, you should enjoy your adventure. Please remember to leave the mountains as you found them. Some have ignored that advise, and if you have found the LDM.......the trash around that site will sicken you.
cj
Speaking from experience in the Superstitions, I can assure you that you will find many treasures in your search.
Sitting around the campfire on a black night with the stillness broken only by Trickster's challenge of the moon coming up over the mountains, will be an experience you will treasure for the rest of your life.
I have spent many a last night in those mountains sipping hot chocolate with a bit of Butter Shots and topped off with real whipped cream. This would be after the traditional last night meal of 1 1/2" thick slabs of steak cooked over hot coals, Ceasar Salad, Twice Baked Stuffed Potatoes and Broccoli with Cheese Sauce. Desert would have been Fresh Strawberry Shortcake buried in whipped cream.
I gave up backpacking a number of years ago.
Anyway.....done right, you should enjoy your adventure. Please remember to leave the mountains as you found them. Some have ignored that advise, and if you have found the LDM.......the trash around that site will sicken you.
cj
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
=Oroblanco Perhaps you will find a treasure you never even dreamed of.....Oroblanco
*****************
HI ORO, he already has, ME!
snicker
Tropical Tramp
*****************
HI ORO, he already has, ME!
snicker
Tropical Tramp
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
=I have spent many a last night in those mountains sipping hot chocolate with a bit of Butter Shots and topped off with real whipped cream. This would be after the traditional last night meal of 1 1/2" thick slabs of steak cooked over hot coals, Ceasar Salad, Twice Baked Stuffed Potatoes and Broccoli with Cheese Sauce. Desert would have been Fresh Strawberry Shortcake buried in whipped cream.
**********
Sheesh and here I was happy with day old hard tortillas /beans and stale coffee, snifffff. The modern buscadero /searcher sure has it rough. sigh Of course my purty mule was excellent company.
Tropical Tramp
**********
Sheesh and here I was happy with day old hard tortillas /beans and stale coffee, snifffff. The modern buscadero /searcher sure has it rough. sigh Of course my purty mule was excellent company.
Tropical Tramp
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