The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

Do you think the Peralta stone maps are genuine, or fake?

  • They are genuine maps to the Lost Dutchman mine

    Votes: 12 9.9%

  • They are genuine maps to some lost mine, not necessarily the Dutchman

    Votes: 49 40.5%

  • They are fakes, created with the intention to fool

    Votes: 60 49.6%
  • Total voters
    121
No way!

If they were TOPO Maps, you might be able to start at the finish line, but as they are not, a person would need to unlock the secret of the correct beginning point. All maps have an endpoint, but the end only has any value if you know where to start from!

Take, for instance a great classic movie: "Yellowbeard" with Graham Chapman (Monty Python) as Yellowbeard the Pirate. Even though he was the one who buried the treasure, he had to find the correct big rock by the beach to begin retracing his drunken trail to the treasure chest. A funny scene, "Stagger, Stagger, Trip, Crawl, Crawl, Crawl, Stagger Left, Stagger, Stagger, Stagger, Fall, Crawl, Crawl, Stagger, Stagger, Trip, Fall.....Here we are!"

Best,

Mike
 

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No way!

OK - decipher out the starting point and follow out the maps to what they lead to. That should suffice to prove their value, correct?

Oroblanco
 

Gollum

I will narrow this down to a couple of the most important points.




2. You asked about the AM&M having copies of the stone maps made.

A: One of my sources gave me the name of the Special Effects Company in Arizona that made the copies in the mid 1980s for the museum. I spoke to the former owner (no longer in business), and found that this company made approximately five copies of the stone maps (other than the set for the museum). They then sold the molds to an artist in Laguna Beach, California (I live in Laguna Niguel, about 5 minutes away). This man made about 22 sets of full size plaster casts before the molds broke. He continued to make half size copies for many years, but no longer.

My interest was in the ALLEGED copies MADE OF STONE by Mitchell resulting in the M&M museum getting a set of half originals and half copies. That is why I asked about Plaster or Stone copies. What I was looking for was WHO started the story about the museum having only 1/2 of an original set. If I misunderstood that Matthew was the source of that info then I owe him an appology. He could have just said that the information didn't come from him.

Your explaination only addresses the Plaster copies made in the 80's.

Blazer
 

Blazer said:
Gollum

I will narrow this down to a couple of the most important points.




2. You asked about the AM&M having copies of the stone maps made.

A: One of my sources gave me the name of the Special Effects Company in Arizona that made the copies in the mid 1980s for the museum. I spoke to the former owner (no longer in business), and found that this company made approximately five copies of the stone maps (other than the set for the museum). They then sold the molds to an artist in Laguna Beach, California (I live in Laguna Niguel, about 5 minutes away). This man made about 22 sets of full size plaster casts before the molds broke. He continued to make half size copies for many years, but no longer.

My interest was in the ALLEGED copies MADE OF STONE by Mitchell resulting in the M&M museum getting a set of half originals and half copies. That is why I asked about Plaster or Stone copies. What I was looking for was WHO started the story about the museum having only 1/2 of an original set. If I misunderstood that Matthew was the source of that info then I owe him an appology. He could have just said that the information didn't come from him.

Your explaination only addresses the Plaster copies made in the 80's.

Blazer
Click to expand...

Hey Blazer,

No, about that part, you are correct. Matthew was my source for that information. The reason I tend to believe it, is that he has a ton of verifiable information on MOEL and the associated people. Some of it was backed up by my source who was a MOEL Investor. I can't verify on paper or by another source, everything Matthew told me, but much of it is verified. That's why I give a good bit of weight to the info he has given me. Like I said, the only thing we disagree about (regarding MOEL) is the involvement of the FBI in the SEC Investigation. I am (hopefully) within a week or two of getting copies of the investigation files.

Best,

Mike
 

Djui5 wrote: This is the answer Jose ;D Seek and ye shall find.

Correct! Randy gets the gold star! :o Too easy, wasn't it? Just realized I have it on my avatar. As Homer (as in Simpson, not as in Troy) would say, Doh! ::)


Okay I have to ask this - has anyone found any meaningful differences between the original stones and the reproductions? (Somehow I just know I am going to regret asking... :() Thank you in advance.....

Oroblanco
 

OroB,

To the best of my knowledge, Travis Tumlinson never altered the Stone Maps in any way. Neither did Clarence Mitchell or his partner, Elgin Kleiwald. The reproductions Mitchell had made were exact in every detail, nothing added and nothing removed. Once the Stone Maps were in the hands of the Az. Mineral Museum I am not sure what happened to them. There is no evidence, that I know of, that the reproductions made while in the possession of the AMM were ever altered. The reproductions that were recently on display at the Flagg Foundation fund raiser, appeared to be exact copies of the Stones Tumlinson and Mitchell had. I have heard the rumors that the stones were altered, but I have never been able to see what may have been altered, or who would have done it and for what reason.

Aurum
 

Aurum,

I have a high quality 8 x 10 copy of the original picture of the Stone Maps. The dagger is not on that picture. Either the picture was altered or the Stone Maps. It appears that the picture may have been altered, but there is no way to prove it, short of having the original.

My copy can be blown up to show very small details. I assume you have the same copy.

cj
 

Aurum,

Just for clarification;

One of the two statements you made below on different dates need to be corrected. On 1-15-07 you stated that you knew of NO alterations made to the original stones by anyone or in any way. But then on 1-17-07 you stated that Mitchell put a small mark on the original stones he donated, and that mark did not exist on any of the Flagg Foundation stones.

“To the best of my knowledge, Travis Tumlinson never altered the Stone Maps in any way. Neither did Clarence Mitchell or his partner, Elgin Kleiwald”.
Aurum Jan 15, 2007 at 05:30:27 AM


“I recently saw the stone Maps on display at a Flagg Foundation event in Mesa and can tell you the Stones that were on display were all reproductions. Mitchell put a very small mark on the stones he donated in 1970 and none of the Flagg Foundation Stones bore this mark”..
Aurum Jan 18, 2007, at 02:07:20 PM

If the mark(s) that you say Mitchell put on the maps he donated in 1970, was significant enough for you to determine that it was missing on the maps displayed by the Flagg Foundation. Wouldn’t that be a direct contradiction to your statement that to your knowledge, they were never altered in any way by anyone? I don’t want to make this sound personal, but under the circumstances, there is nobody else I can ask for clarification.



Gollum wrote:

Hey Blazer,

No, about that part, you are correct. Matthew was my source for that information. The reason I tend to believe it, is that he has a ton of verifiable information on MOEL and the associated people. Some of it was backed up by my source who was a MOEL Investor. I can't verify on paper or by another source, everything Matthew told me, but much of it is verified. That's why I give a good bit of weight to the info he has given me. Like I said, the only thing we disagree about (regarding MOEL) is the involvement of the FBI in the SEC Investigation. I am (hopefully) within a week or two of getting copies of the investigation files.
Best,
Mike
Mike,

Do you have any idea how many documents were entered into evidence in the Baron of Arizona land fraud case? Stacks and Stacks of it! Do you know how many individual pieces of it were found to be FAKE? 2 or3 Pieces! (if I remember correctly)Reavis slipped a few fake documents in with hundreds of authentic ones. An excellent example of how one document cannot be accepted as authentic, just because it is found between two authentic ones. Each piece has to be painstakingly and individually verified.


Another example… Do you know how many photographs of Jacob Waltz hang on the wall of the Lost Dutchman Museum? The last time I was in there I believe I counted 12. Could have been 11 or 13 but the exact number irrelevant. Say it was 12, that is 12 PHOTOGRAPHIC pieces of evidence of what Jacob Waltz looked like. The problem is… they are of 12 different men! That means that at least 11 of them are FAKES! 11 pieces out of 12 pieces of evidence that cannot be authentic!

Do you know how many maps to the Lost Dutchman Mine the same museum has in their collection? Well over 100! Real physical maps that some people consider to be Physical Evidence to the existence of the Lost Dutchman Mine. Do you know how many of them have ever been verified to be authentic, or ever lead anyone to any lost mine? ZERO!

I am not insinuating that the museum is perpetuating any kind of a scam in either case. They make no claim that the true image of Jacob Waltz appears in any of the photos, or that any of the maps are authentic. I submit these examples only to show how severe the problem of false information is.

Have you ever seen a cashier at Wal Mart pull out a magic marker and draw a line on a $50 bill to see if it is counterfeit? There is no magic marker that works on maps or documents, which is why so many of us challenge EVERY PIECE of evidence until it is tracked to it’s source? Having a piece of paper (document) that backs up a story that someone is promoting, is NOT proof that the story is true until the supporting document is validated. A person with nothing to hide will always give the source of his information. To claim the source is personal or confidential information, is the primary tool of scammers and con-artists, and will result in it only being accepted as evidence by those who want to believe it, because it fits with what they already believe.

You mentioned earlier that there is a lot of “ behind the scenes drama” in Apache Junction .

The people of Apache Junction who call it home, are sick and tired of outsiders coming into it and circulating their fake maps and documents to the point that there are 10 or 100 (or more) fake documents for every single authentic document that exists.

Do you know where all the “behind the scenes drama” you speak of comes from? It starts with honest, hard working people investing their time digging through old newspapers, micro fiche files, magazines etc. and searching out living individuals that can give first hand testimony as to what the real story was. Do you know what happens to these people when they expose some of the myths, false maps and documents? They come out of their homes in the morning and find all four of the tires on their car flat, or they come home to find that their house has been broken into, or they find themselves publicly attacked in some Internet forum.

It is very easy, for example, for some guy to sit in Long Island, N.Y. and write in a forum about the Lost Dutchman Mine, that he believes the Holmes Manuscript or Thunder God’s Gold is, in his opinion, the biggest bunch of Bull he ever read. But it is not a good idea if you live in Apache Junction, to make a statement like that unless you have some Brass Balls or a deputy sheriff for a neighbor on both sides.

Have you ever visited the home of any of the outspoken and well know people in the Lost Dutchman legend, and wondered why they have loaded guns sitting right beside their computer keyboards and various other places around their homes, or exotic security systems on their property, or ALL have concealed weapon permits, and carry small firearms with them everywhere they go? You can call it drama from where you sit in southern California, but you are too far from the fire to feel the heat. I am not exaggerating any of this. These are real life circumstances!

You can think it is all a game, or a great form of entertainment to pass away your idle hours if you want, but to the people who are personally involved and dedicated to finding the truth and exposing the fallacies, this is very serious business. It is also very serious business for the people that have been, or are apt to be exposed in the process.

I accuse NOBODY of being a scammer or con-artist. But I am suspicious of EVERBODY and accept NOTHING for face value, no matter where it comes from. I might trust the individual that is passing me information, but until I know where he got it, and I can do my own evaluation his source, I do not trust it!

I did not invent that standard Mike. I acquired it from people I respect. People who I am sure you have heard of, and maybe even associated with in your own search for the truth. What ever standard you set for yourself is up to you.

I am sorry this is so long, but I felt it was all necessary to show why I am so skeptical, and hopefully dismiss any thoughts that I have a personal axe to grind against anyone. I know you might take my opening statement above as a personal attack against Aurum, but that is not the case. It is a challenge to his contradictory statements period! I challenged him to present some evidence that the M&M Museum has been charging people to view the original stones and giving them copies to look at instead. He changed the subject and avoided answering that, by addressing me as Jim and attempted to turn his loss for an answer into a personal attack against a third party towards whom he appears to have a personal axe to grind. He can call me Jim again if he wishes and avoid answering this question too, I will overlook it, and just chalk it up and continue to watch his posts for contradictory statements. It all ads up in my own opinion of his credibility as a source of information.

He might otherwise be a great guy that I would still enjoy downing a few beers and shooting some pool with. (As long as we didn’t get into a serious discussion about historical facts or have any personal axes to grind).

Oroblanco,

I know you and the Mrs. Were victims of my personal crusade against the spread of false information too, and I hope this shows you that it was nothing personal against either of you. I joined this forum to support your views against some of the things the Federal Government does and gets away with. The topic shifted and before I could make the necessary attitude adjustment, I was knee deep into the subject of the Lost Dutchman Mine and the stone maps. They are still not my favorite subject, but since they are so entwined with the topic of false information I couldn’t help jumping in. If I had intended to debate those subjects I would have done it in the appropriate forums. Not wanting to get into all of that because of my strong personal opinions. I avoided those forums as much as I could. Sometimes things get right in your face no matter how hard you try to avoid them. Now I am into them up to my waist and getting deeper every day. I guess that is where the saying “S___ Happens” came from?

Cactusjumper,

Have you considered the idea that those photos may have been taken before all the dirt was cleaned out of the inscriptions? If you look very close, I think you will find that some of the other deep inscriptions on that side of the stone are partially filled with dirt and only faintly visible. If you are refering to the photo of the stones sitting on the front bumper of the car, I have that photo too, and I believe there is dirt in the inscriptions.


Blazer
 

Blazer,

you are talking about adding something to the Stones or initialing them or putting a cryptic mark on them that also would need to be decoded.

That is not what I am talking about. The mark Mitchell made looked like a tiny corner of the stone had been bumped and slightly chipped in that spot. It had nothing to do with the look of the carvings on the face, back or sides of the stone and their original markings. No one would even notice it or think anything of it unless you know it is there. The Stones are not perfect slabs of stone with carvings on them. Something doesn't have to be significant for someone to notice something is there or is missing.

You assume way to much Jim, put words in peoples mouths that they never said, and let your imagination rule your better judgement.

Aurum
 

BLAZER: "... But I am suspicious of EVERBODY and accept NOTHING for face value, no matter where it comes from. I might trust the individual that is passing me information, but until I know where he got it, and I can do my own evaluation his source, I do not trust it! ..."

Bravo! Anyone seeking the truth must adopt this strategy.
 

Blazer,

When I have physical evidence in front of me, I try to just focus on what is there. Secondarily, I would "consider" other "ideas" and what might be.

In this case, I was only making reference to the dagger. I see no evidence in the picture, that it is obscured by dirt. Actually, it looks like an eraser was taken to that portion of the picture. If you have a copy of the original picture, you know that the picture in Dr. Glover's book was "enhanced". Do you know what he did?

Anyone know if there are "original" pictures of the other stones? Ever wonder why they did not take any pictures of the Priest/Horse maps? My own guess is that they had not been created yet.

A new book is out. "Cracking The Golden Egg" by, Jim Wilson. You might all find it of interest.....Especially Randy.

cj
 

Hey CJ,

I read the first part of the book at Amazon.com. It sounds a little like Bill Riley ramblings. I REALLY don't like the "Indian Suckup Quality" of much of it either. You can tell from the little bit there and the description that Wilson didn't talk to any of the Peraltas, or the Apache, or the old timers in and around Apache Junction. Looks like just another guy with delusions of grandeur, who thinks he has solved the riddle (bet ya he didn't find any treasure)! ;D ;D ;D

Hey Blazer,

I understand that documents can be forged, but these aren't. Like I said, much of what he sent me, I have other verification for (not everything, but a lot). You keep forgetting that the information I have from Matthew is a small part of the information I have gotten. Here is the part you need to remember about what I researched:

At this point in time, I DON'T CARE WHO MADE THE STONE MAPS! My research has exclusively centered on the Stone Maps' history from 1949 until present.

The reason for this is, IF the Stone Maps are authentic Treasure Maps (and at this point I believe they are), then working out their hidden secrets will be a MAJOR UNDERTAKING! I believe that by accurately knowing the ENTIRE modern history of the stones, I should be ble to judge fairly accurately whether they are fakes or not. If I can find some CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE showing them to be fakes, there would be no need to dive into decyphering them. On the other hand, if a preponderance of the evidence shows me that they are authentic, I may just take the time to try and work it all out.

And I'll tell you this about what I have found out so far, I have found NOTHING concrete that tells me they are fakes. I HAVE found some things that give me questions I want answered. I HAVE found many things that make me lean HEAVILY toward them being authentic.When I have gathered ALL the documentary evidence I need to CONCLUSIVELY know the accurate history of the stone maps from 1949 until present, I will tell the entire story.

Oro,

You kind of just throw it out there don't you? Reread your post before seriously ask. "O K - decipher out the starting point and follow out the maps to what they lead to. That should suffice to prove their value, correcting that question, please!"

The reason I say this is because THAT is the single most difficult part of the entire situation. Of course it would most definitely quickly solve the riddle. If the starting location were easily discernible, somebody would have definitely found the correct end of the trail by now.

Best,

Mike
 

Greetings,

Blazer thanks for clarifying things - sure hope I did not offend you or anyone and if so my apologies - no offense was intended to anyone.

Believe it or not, I really DO want to see someone find that Lost Dutchman mine! It would be nice if it were me, but I am not there looking for it now (may give another run soon though) so if someone else is lucky enough to find it, great! There is a good deal of material that has been added-on to the basic facts in the period after the death of Jacob Waltz and it sure looks like this material has quite increased the difficulties of ever finding that mine.

Gollum wrote: Oro,

You kind of just throw it out there don't you? Reread your post before seriously ask. "O K - decipher out the starting point and follow out the maps to what they lead to. That should suffice to prove their value, correcting that question, please!"

Yep just toss it into the mix - because I don't believe that finding the starting point is that difficult NOR the "key" needed in a map - once you can identify ANY other landmarks, you can literally skip the starting point altogether. In fact, if as you say, you are already convinced they are genuine, then further research into who held the stones, who said what about them, etc is meaningless and a waste of your time - you might better work out your starting point (whether it is the original starting point or one of the other landmarks) and follow it out. Life is short, might as well be sweet - unless you are interested in historical research for the historical research sake, then further research into the stones history/documents etc is worthwhile. Heck if you are having fun at it, then by all means, continue! ;) Remember this map is not like the movie Yellowbeard's deal where he is in what would be the final part of a larger map, it is covering a large area and (if real) is intended to guide the seeker through a relatively large area to get to the treasure site.

Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Oroblanco
 

Mike,

It seems that you don't know Jim Wilson, so I will give your opinion minimal consideration. I assume his book is a few pages longer than what you read.

"I went over the entire website, but somehow missed that one part. Yes, Tom K is responsible for the content of that page. He seems to know the person responsible. I can't wait to hear from him."

Tom has spent many years riding the Stone Map trail. It is not an area he seems to make many public statements about. It's true that he comes down on both sides of the issue with seemingly strong convictions.
That might have something to do with the possibility that the trail maps are authentic and the Horse/Priest maps were made to confuse others.

The author of those maps has signed his name to the work.....as he always does. It is unlikely that Mr. Kollenborn is unaware of who created them.

All,

The start of the trail, as many have mentioned, is the key. If you start at the correct place, you will be able to follow every twist and turn of the entire trail. Blindbowman has told you that it is very difficult. That is true.

Once you reach the "lofty ridge" the entire first map will be laid out in view. Many parts of the second map will also be seen from that location. If you follow the map to the center of the heart, you will find a....heart.

Many people are now aware of what I discovered around thirty-five years ago. Some are still searching the area. I will save you all a lot of time and needless conjecture.

The Stone Map Trail starts in the bottom of Hieroglyphic Canyon. If you follow it to the end, you will be at the heart. You will not be able to recognize it. It must be seen from the north, but the trail will lead you precisely to the heart formation.

There are many other (easier) ways to get to that final location, but you will miss one hell of a view.

Good luck and good hunting,

cj
 

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Greetings,

Mike you talk about throwing it out there - gee what am I to make of what you have posted here? Your recent post, quote:

"Oro,

You kind of just throw it out there don't you? Reread your post before seriously ask. "O K - decipher out the starting point and follow out the maps to what they lead to. That should suffice to prove their value, correcting that question, please!"

The reason I say this is because THAT is the single most difficult part of the entire situation. Of course it would most definitely quickly solve the riddle. If the starting location were easily discernible, somebody would have definitely found the correct end of the trail by now.
" end quote from http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,47594.msg477247.html#msg477247 (reply #588)

got me to thinking, I have seen another post of yours that would seem to be quite a post, when compared to this statement. Here is what I remembered seeing (had to go look for it):

Gollum wrote: I'll even tell you where to look. If the Peralta Stones are real, and the trail to follow on the trail stone is correct, and you are supposed to go 10 degrees from center, that puts you on Herman's Mountain. I have checked this location against Google Earth, and some of my Topo Maps of the area. The mountains match. The valleys match. Use the intersection of Whitlow Canyon and East Silver King Rd as your starting point. Follow the canyons like on the Trail and Heart Stones to the end. 10 degrees to the right, and you are on the South Slope of Herman's Mountain.

(from: http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.msg294748.html#msg294748

So you still say it is the STARTING point that is the giant roadblock? What problem, after you have already given us the starting point? This was your own post Mike - so....? What is it you are saying, (or NOT saying) really? ???

Oroblanco
 

Hey CJ,

You are correct. I do not know Jim Wilson. All I have to go by is what I read at Amazon.com (as I stated).

About Tom K, and his feelings about the stone maps; you are correct. I have heard from a few sources that his opinion of them changes depending on who he is speaking to. Each person that told me that gave me a different reason for him doing it.

Roy,

There is only ONE obvious monument on the Trail Maps. A heart. I have seen pictures of no less than seven good looking hearts in the supers. While the maps may indeed show the area of the Supers, it is in no way drawn to scale. It may have accurate depictions of the mountains and such, but I would like for you to explain how to, so easily as you seem to think it is, just skip to the end of the line, and scoop up the treasure. While Cactus Jumper's Heart may indeed be the correct one, like I said, I have seem pictures of no less than six others. NO, it won't happen, because the ONLY way to REALLY find the right spot is to find the correct starting point. That way you would be guideed by monuments (if they are still standing), and you could logically figure out the accurate distances of the dotted line.

Best,

Mike
 

Oro,

If you have the slightest ability to read a Topo, and a copy of the trail maps, you can all figure this thing out in ten minutes......or less.

Mike,

I have also seen many hearts and pictures of hearts. I placed mine on a topo over 35 years ago, without ever being in the area. We went in to find two specific monuments that were on that topo. They were there. The heart in the picture is exactly located at the end of the trail that I placed on that original topo. You do not follow the monumented trail. You stay in the bottom of the canyon, find the arrow off the dagger and follow the trail that curves up and thru a saddle. That trail will lead you right into that heart.

Any of your hearts do that?

cj
 

What is your problem with that? It may actually be the correct starting point, and the correct endpoint. I have not had the chance to get out there and see for myself. That's based on one interpretation of the stone maps. I say my previous post could be it. I also know that my interpretation could be just as wrong as everyone else's who has tried to solve that puzzle. That was actually pretty early on in my research of the stonew maps. Before I really got into the meat and potatoes of them.

I will call your attention to a quote by Thomas Glover in his book, "First, however, there is a quality about the stone maps that I do not understand, but I would be remisswere I not to acknowledge it. These maps have fascinated many to the point of obsession~~~~~Even stranger still, the maps seem to have an almost metaphysical property, so that no matter what one's solution is---they lead one to something. A physicist friends solution of the stone maps led him to believe that there was something buried at the Casa Grande Monument---infra red aerial photography showed an anomaly right where he predicted, and later studies with ground penetrating radar, showed objects buried at the spot, and ONLY in that spot in his entire search area. Another friend came up with an entirely different solution which led him deep into remote parts of the Superstition Mountains where he found Spanish Symbols, another map carved into a mountain, and a carved date. I have seen his photographs, and his finds are definitely not Indian Pictographs. Another, again, totally different solution, led one man toi the discovery of artifacts. The solutions reached always seem to lead the seeker to some sort of "find."

So, my solution may lead to something, but may not be the correct solution. I DON'T KNOW. We will see.

Best,

Mike
 

B,

That's a good question. I doubt anyone knows the answer, for sure.

Here is one answer:

If the Stone Maps are a complete hoax, which I have always said was possible, the people most likely responsible for their creation are.....Chuck Aylor, Ted De Grazia and Tom Kollenborn. Here is a quote from Tom Kollenborn's book: "Perhaps one of Chuck Aylor's favorite quotes best describes the Aylors and their quest for gold in the Superstition Mountains: You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass."

That may be a clue as to why the man who created or helped to create the maps, added a heart which you could "pluck out" of the heart of the mystery that is the Stone Maps.

cj
 

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