Aurum,
Just for clarification;
One of the two statements you made below on different dates need to be corrected. On 1-15-07 you stated that you knew of NO alterations made to the original stones by anyone or in any way. But then on 1-17-07 you stated that Mitchell put a small mark on the original stones he donated, and that mark did not exist on any of the Flagg Foundation stones.
“To the best of my knowledge, Travis Tumlinson never altered the Stone Maps in any way. Neither did Clarence Mitchell or his partner, Elgin Kleiwald”.
Aurum Jan 15, 2007 at 05:30:27 AM
“I recently saw the stone Maps on display at a Flagg Foundation event in Mesa and can tell you the Stones that were on display were all reproductions. Mitchell put a very small mark on the stones he donated in 1970 and none of the Flagg Foundation Stones bore this mark”..
Aurum Jan 18, 2007, at 02:07:20 PM
If the mark(s) that you say Mitchell put on the maps he donated in 1970, was significant enough for you to determine that it was missing on the maps displayed by the Flagg Foundation. Wouldn’t that be a direct contradiction to your statement that to your knowledge, they were never altered in any way by anyone? I don’t want to make this sound personal, but under the circumstances, there is nobody else I can ask for clarification.
Gollum wrote:
Hey Blazer,
No, about that part, you are correct. Matthew was my source for that information. The reason I tend to believe it, is that he has a ton of verifiable information on MOEL and the associated people. Some of it was backed up by my source who was a MOEL Investor. I can't verify on paper or by another source, everything Matthew told me, but much of it is verified. That's why I give a good bit of weight to the info he has given me. Like I said, the only thing we disagree about (regarding MOEL) is the involvement of the FBI in the SEC Investigation. I am (hopefully) within a week or two of getting copies of the investigation files.
Best,
Mike
Mike,
Do you have any idea how many documents were entered into evidence in the Baron of Arizona land fraud case? Stacks and Stacks of it! Do you know how many individual pieces of it were found to be FAKE? 2 or3 Pieces! (if I remember correctly)Reavis slipped a few fake documents in with hundreds of authentic ones. An excellent example of how one document cannot be accepted as authentic, just because it is found between two authentic ones. Each piece has to be painstakingly and individually verified.
Another example… Do you know how many photographs of Jacob Waltz hang on the wall of the Lost Dutchman Museum? The last time I was in there I believe I counted 12. Could have been 11 or 13 but the exact number irrelevant. Say it was 12, that is 12 PHOTOGRAPHIC pieces of evidence of what Jacob Waltz looked like. The problem is… they are of 12 different men! That means that at least 11 of them are FAKES! 11 pieces out of 12 pieces of evidence that cannot be authentic!
Do you know how many maps to the Lost Dutchman Mine the same museum has in their collection? Well over 100! Real physical maps that some people consider to be Physical Evidence to the existence of the Lost Dutchman Mine. Do you know how many of them have ever been verified to be authentic, or ever lead anyone to any lost mine? ZERO!
I am not insinuating that the museum is perpetuating any kind of a scam in either case. They make no claim that the true image of Jacob Waltz appears in any of the photos, or that any of the maps are authentic. I submit these examples only to show how severe the problem of false information is.
Have you ever seen a cashier at Wal Mart pull out a magic marker and draw a line on a $50 bill to see if it is counterfeit? There is no magic marker that works on maps or documents, which is why so many of us challenge EVERY PIECE of evidence until it is tracked to it’s source? Having a piece of paper (document) that backs up a story that someone is promoting, is NOT proof that the story is true until the supporting document is validated. A person with nothing to hide will always give the source of his information. To claim the source is personal or confidential information, is the primary tool of scammers and con-artists, and will result in it only being accepted as evidence by those who want to believe it, because it fits with what they already believe.
You mentioned earlier that there is a lot of “ behind the scenes drama” in Apache Junction .
The people of Apache Junction who call it home, are sick and tired of outsiders coming into it and circulating their fake maps and documents to the point that there are 10 or 100 (or more) fake documents for every single authentic document that exists.
Do you know where all the “behind the scenes drama” you speak of comes from? It starts with honest, hard working people investing their time digging through old newspapers, micro fiche files, magazines etc. and searching out living individuals that can give first hand testimony as to what the real story was. Do you know what happens to these people when they expose some of the myths, false maps and documents? They come out of their homes in the morning and find all four of the tires on their car flat, or they come home to find that their house has been broken into, or they find themselves publicly attacked in some Internet forum.
It is very easy, for example, for some guy to sit in Long Island, N.Y. and write in a forum about the Lost Dutchman Mine, that he believes the Holmes Manuscript or Thunder God’s Gold is, in his opinion, the biggest bunch of Bull he ever read. But it is not a good idea if you live in Apache Junction, to make a statement like that unless you have some Brass Balls or a deputy sheriff for a neighbor on both sides.
Have you ever visited the home of any of the outspoken and well know people in the Lost Dutchman legend, and wondered why they have loaded guns sitting right beside their computer keyboards and various other places around their homes, or exotic security systems on their property, or ALL have concealed weapon permits, and carry small firearms with them everywhere they go? You can call it drama from where you sit in southern California, but you are too far from the fire to feel the heat. I am not exaggerating any of this. These are real life circumstances!
You can think it is all a game, or a great form of entertainment to pass away your idle hours if you want, but to the people who are personally involved and dedicated to finding the truth and exposing the fallacies, this is very serious business. It is also very serious business for the people that have been, or are apt to be exposed in the process.
I accuse NOBODY of being a scammer or con-artist. But I am suspicious of EVERBODY and accept NOTHING for face value, no matter where it comes from. I might trust the individual that is passing me information, but until I know where he got it, and I can do my own evaluation his source, I do not trust it!
I did not invent that standard Mike. I acquired it from people I respect. People who I am sure you have heard of, and maybe even associated with in your own search for the truth. What ever standard you set for yourself is up to you.
I am sorry this is so long, but I felt it was all necessary to show why I am so skeptical, and hopefully dismiss any thoughts that I have a personal axe to grind against anyone. I know you might take my opening statement above as a personal attack against Aurum, but that is not the case. It is a challenge to his contradictory statements period! I challenged him to present some evidence that the M&M Museum has been charging people to view the original stones and giving them copies to look at instead. He changed the subject and avoided answering that, by addressing me as Jim and attempted to turn his loss for an answer into a personal attack against a third party towards whom he appears to have a personal axe to grind. He can call me Jim again if he wishes and avoid answering this question too, I will overlook it, and just chalk it up and continue to watch his posts for contradictory statements. It all ads up in my own opinion of his credibility as a source of information.
He might otherwise be a great guy that I would still enjoy downing a few beers and shooting some pool with. (As long as we didn’t get into a serious discussion about historical facts or have any personal axes to grind).
Oroblanco,
I know you and the Mrs. Were victims of my personal crusade against the spread of false information too, and I hope this shows you that it was nothing personal against either of you. I joined this forum to support your views against some of the things the Federal Government does and gets away with. The topic shifted and before I could make the necessary attitude adjustment, I was knee deep into the subject of the Lost Dutchman Mine and the stone maps. They are still not my favorite subject, but since they are so entwined with the topic of false information I couldn’t help jumping in. If I had intended to debate those subjects I would have done it in the appropriate forums. Not wanting to get into all of that because of my strong personal opinions. I avoided those forums as much as I could. Sometimes things get right in your face no matter how hard you try to avoid them. Now I am into them up to my waist and getting deeper every day. I guess that is where the saying “S___ Happens” came from?
Cactusjumper,
Have you considered the idea that those photos may have been taken before all the dirt was cleaned out of the inscriptions? If you look very close, I think you will find that some of the other deep inscriptions on that side of the stone are partially filled with dirt and only faintly visible. If you are refering to the photo of the stones sitting on the front bumper of the car, I have that photo too, and I believe there is dirt in the inscriptions.
Blazer
Seek and ye shall find.
Too easy, wasn't it? Just realized I have it on my avatar. As Homer (as in Simpson, not as in Troy) would say, Doh! 
) Thank you in advance.....
Remember this map is not like the movie Yellowbeard's deal where he is in what would be the final part of a larger map, it is covering a large area and (if real) is intended to guide the seeker through a relatively large area to get to the treasure site. 
