Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[captain1965]

Gotcha. Have you seen that going on with this thread?

Hard to tell. I'm just saying some might vote in favor of hoax to perpetuate the disbelief in the validity of the stones.

 

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[captain1965]

In*argumentation theory, an*argumentum ad populum*(Latin*for "appeal to the people") is afallacious argument*that concludes that aproposition*is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1]*including*appeal to the masses,appeal to belief,*appeal to the majority,appeal to democracy,*appeal to popularity,argument by consensus,*consensus fallacy,authority of the many, and*bandwagon fallacy

 

[captain1965]

lol Sorry "stoners" is what some circles use in reference to "stone map believers"

 

[sdcfia]

What I am saying is that some Peralta Stone map believers feel that they have figured out how to apply them to the mountains and are afraid that others who get involved may become confident in them. Thus potentially leading others in their area. So some spread misinformation.

Misinformation is the name of the game, especially when greed and hubris override all else. Dark humor enters the mix when true believers, who are themselves misinformed, add to the misinformation in order to protect erroneous beliefs. Who's on first?

 

[markmar]

I believe , is better anyone to talk for itself .

 

[somehiker]

View attachment 1177581

Thats the kind of small variances you can get with a simple and probably homemade pantograph/duplicator.

View attachment pantograph.bmp

http://www.instructables.com/id/Dremel-CarverDuplicator-like-a-Human-Power-CNC-Ro/

 

[DiggerGal]

Anyone know where Gollum is? I know that he is considered an expert on the Stone Maps. I haven't seen him on the forums, heard he got a time out but unsure of the validity.

 

[azdave35]

Anyone know where Gollum is? I know that he is considered an expert on the Stone Maps. I haven't seen him on the forums, heard he got a time out but unsure of the validity.

mike got fed up with the way the forum was being ran and quit posting..he does have a website that you could probably contact him on

 

[DiggerGal]

mike got fed up with the way the forum was being ran and quit posting..he does have a website that you could probably contact him on

I have been on his site before. That's too bad, he really added volumes of information to the threads.

 

[captain1965]

Thats the kind of small variances you can get with a simple and probably homemade pantograph/duplicator.

View attachment 1177623

Dremel Carver/Duplicator like a Human Powered CNC Router

I think the subtle discrepancies could be attributed to the angle and scale of both images. Also the stones may have been sanded to bring out the carvings and or display purposes. BUT the notch at the bottom should be visible at the horizontal line I inserted.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Anyone know where Gollum is? I know that he is considered an expert on the Stone Maps. I haven't seen him on the forums, heard he got a time out but unsure of the validity.

DiggerGal,

Yes indeed, in my opinion Gollum (Mike) is by far the most knowledgeable person concerning the Stone Maps. He is followed a close second by Azmula. Both men could shed a supernova of light on the issues that are being discussed here. No one has come close to the research of Gollum and Az. Others have done some good research but it is one thing to do research and quite another to correctly interpret what has been found. That is where Gollum and Az have excelled.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

DiggerGal,

Yes indeed, in my opinion Gollum (Mike) is by far the most knowledgeable person concerning the Stone Maps. He is followed a close second by Azmula. Both men could shed a supernova of light on the issues that are being discussed here. No one has come close to the research of Gollum and Az. Others have done some good research but it is one thing to do research and quite another to correctly interpret what has been found. That is where Gollum and Az have excelled.

Matthew

Matthew,

Both men, IMHO, are now using Garry's research in their conclusions. You should not have left Garry out of your conclusion. Who is to say if Gollum or Azmula have interpreted the stones correctly? I have followed both men's research from the beginning to the present. Unless you have more information than what is publicly known, they are both still searching for the answers.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Hi Matthew:

Both Gollum and Azmula believe the two trail stones and red heart stone to be real....made by Jesuit Priests.
They both also maintain that, based on evidence they have gathered, the H/P stone is a fake.
Do you agree with these conclusions ?

Regards:SH.

BTW: I enjoyed reading the article which appeared briefly on the other web site.
Was it a draft, or a final version ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Matthew:

Both Gollum and Azmula believe the two trail stones and red heart stone to be real....made by Jesuit Priests.
They both also maintain that, based on evidence they have gathered, the H/P stone is a fake.
Do you agree with these conclusions ?

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

Just for the record......I have been saying that for years. Long before either man came to that conclusion, and before Mike ever began researching the stones. I would love to hear what evidence either man based their claim on, of Jesuit involvement in the creation of the trail maps.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Misinformation is the name of the game, especially when greed and hubris override all else. Dark humor enters the mix when true believers, who are themselves misinformed, add to the misinformation in order to protect erroneous beliefs.

With all sincerity... if and when there is ever that one last post, a conclusion or, summary or, a lessen learned this would be it for me. Insightful, well written, and quotable.

Minus the Bud & Lou reference.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hi Matthew:

Both Gollum and Azmula believe the two trail stones and red heart stone to be real....made by Jesuit Priests.
They both also maintain that, based on evidence they have gathered, the H/P stone is a fake.
Do you agree with these conclusions ?

Regards:SH.

BTW: I enjoyed reading the article which appeared briefly on the other web site.
Was it a draft, or a final version ?

somehiker,

Personally I am not a Stone Map enthusiast. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in them, I just have never tried to decode them or follow them on my own. My only real experience with the Stone Maps was following Al Reser and helping him with some things he was trying to learn about them.

I agree with Gollum and Azmula that the two trail stones are authentic although I'm not completely sure they were carved by Jesuit Priests.
I am not certain they believe the H/P stone is a, "fake".

Carol Mitchell told me her father (Clarence O. Mitchell) believed 100% in the two trail stones but was only mildly interested in the H/P stone. This leads me to believe the H/P stone may have had a different history than the two trail stones. That does not make it a fake.
Lets say that we know for a fact Travis Tumlinson carved the H/P stone. Why would someone call that a fake ? Why couldn't he have carved it from an actual map or as a copy of another stone he did not have possession of himself ?

The theory some have that , .... Travis T. carved the H/P stone so it must be fake is the exact thing I mentioned before that shows you have to correctly interpret what you have learned, not just apply prejudice to fulfill what you want to be true. There could be other explanations.


Matthew

 

[somehiker]

That would be part of Travis' scam - trying to include Miguel Peralta into this artwork.

It's the same as him stopping to photograph weaver's needle - which he didn't.

Just trying to intertwine pieces of existing legend into the maps he carved. In those two instances, The Peralta family and Jacob Waltz' clues to the lost dutchman mine.

In the beginning of my own interest in the stone maps, I assumed the same. That "PEDRO" of the small hole, and "MIGUEL" way up on the top edge of the stone as it is, were both a link to the LDM/Peralta legend(s), and possibly added by Travis or Mitchell for some reason of their own. This slowed me down at first, and made me suspicious of some of the other lightly marked renderings on that particular stone. Hampered by not being a very religious person, and my limited knowledge of theology, I failed to realize that given the obvious religious theme and overtones of not just the stone maps, but also the Stone Crosses and Cursum Perficio drawing, that Pedro and Miguel just might be a reference to St. Peter the apostle, and St.Michael the archangel. If true, this becomes part of the understanding....and the solution. IMHO.

Regards:SH.

 

[davin]

thanks ryan and frank, fantastic job and looking forward to seeing more.
davin

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Captain,

The stones on the car bumper picture are resting on a wood board, while the stones in the museum are resting on sand. If you lift the stone from the sand, you will find it is chipped the same way. They are the same stones there is no way to chip stone and get the same identical results.

Homar

Such a simple solution, checking while the glass was removed.

And if you weren't successful in getting permission, you could always compare the "bumper maps" photograph to any of the known cast copies. That smoking gun chip is there, cast from the original, just like it should be.

Lifting a mold from an object is complicated, requiring a clean surface for excellent results. A releasing agent is sometimes applied and again removed (cleaned).



From another site.
Jim's image.

 

[captain1965]

Hi Matthew:

Both Gollum and Azmula believe the two trail stones and red heart stone to be real....made by Jesuit Priests.
They both also maintain that, based on evidence they have gathered, the H/P stone is a fake.
Do you agree with these conclusions ?

Regards:SH.

BTW: I enjoyed reading the article which appeared briefly on the other web site.
Was it a draft, or a final version ?

I have wondered myself if Travis created the H/P stone to attract help (financial or physical) make a discovery. I believe he was convinced that the trail stones and heart he had found were authentic since he reported using them for 10 years.