The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[FEMF]

Skumpa and everyone, - please don't take a question as a personal attack. It is not attacking to ask to see a photo, and I got the same impression about what was posted meaning that there was such a spot on Bluff Springs mountain at which Four Peaks would line up as one, which I have never found that spot. If there is a photo (from anyone) that shows the peaks lining up I would like to see it too.

Something to consider when comparing the stone maps with what you see from Google Earth, if you find a lot of matching details that implies that the stone maps were created by use of some kind of aerial overview (as proposed by our mutual amigo Hal Croves) and this would tend to point to a modern origin. Just a factor to consider.

On Deering's clues, they may well be pertaining to a different mine from that of Waltz. Personally I am fairly convinced that this is the case. What he told his friend John Chuning led Chuning to a spot on the northern side of the range quite close to the Salt river, or maybe Chuning had given up on following the clues and was simply prospecting when he found the mine that he, Ely and Bark then worked? A key difference for Deering's mine is that he stated there were pieces of ore laying around the entrance, and secondarily that it was not covered. Does that sound like what Waltz allegedly told Julia, Reiney or Dick Holmes?

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Hello Roy
I believe the part about Four Peaks lining up to form one Peak, is from Dick Holmes story!
FEMF

 

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[lgadbois]

Yes, there is no site where Four Peaks look as one. As Beth indicated, maybe one and a half. A line can be averaged through the center of the peaks and you get approximately 111 19 45. If you carry that line down to Bluff Springs Mountain it falls East of the Southern end of the mountain. If you were standing on the top of Bluff Springs Mountain near the SE end, the mountains might appear as one to the naked eye.

It is possible that the Stone Maps lead to a mine or cache site. They may relate to the Peraltas, or they may not. There are several mine sites in the area of the Superstitions. There are apparently caches of gold ore, gold bars, and perhaps DeGrazia paintings. It is amazing, with all the persons that have been attracted to researching and searching for these treasures, that so little has been found or proven to be true.

I don't believe that the Stone Maps are a hoax. I think that Tumlinson created them from a rawhide map that his Dad obtained in Mexico. Like a lot of maps, the directions can be interpreted a number of ways by someone that has no frame of reference. The maps that are found on the stones are detailed. There are some that believe that a trail of eighteen monuments within the Superstition Mountains leads to the "oro." Others believe that the eighteen places are locations leading from Sonora to the Superstitions, and that only the Heart Map shows the final destination.

 

[Cubfan64]

It is amazing, with all the persons that have been attracted to researching and searching for these treasures, that so little has been found or proven to be true.

I used to think the same thing, but after spending some time out there and getting to know some "real" treasure hunters, I'm convinced of the following:

1) It's truly a wilderness type landscape once you get off the beaten path - there are countless areas that things could and likely have been hidden that will probably never be found.

2) The "real" treasure hunter would very likely NEVER tell a soul if they really found something out there - they would likely take it out little by little over time and nobody would be the wiser - it's illegal since it's Federal land, but it's a risk that some people are willing to take.

3) Who knows how much "stuff" of value has been taken out of there since the 1800's - that's a LONG time for people to have removed artifacts and potential wealth leaving no ability to ever provide legitimate PROOF that something was found out there.

 

[Oroblanco]

Skumpa wrote

oro, I thoght beth cleared that up in earlier posts. I think your right they never ever line up, anywhere, one of the four always stick out somewhere. but maybe the line is very close to the w side of the bluff if not on top, over the edge and down. if he closed up the funnel tunnel, where no one could find it. then a small cave entrance over the side. i have tried a different locations to line it up to be on top of the bluff, but the line disappears into the mountain, so it is difficult. I hope it was some help to u. Then again I could be completely wrong.

Well I didn't say that no place will fit the Four Peaks lining up, just that I have never found one, and the clue does say "appear" as one. Perhaps it depends on where you stand to look? I have not been over every square foot of the Superstitions to know for sure, there may be some place that the four peaks will "appear" as one?

FEMF wrote

Hello Roy
I believe the part about Four Peaks lining up to form one Peak, is from Dick Holmes story!
FEMF

I think you are right, I should have specified about the "you must go through a hole" part being from Deering. His clues are not that clear, like "the most god-awful place you ever saw" and "it is up high and yet you must go down to get to it". Confusing to say the least, but it is (possibly) notable that Deering would not spend a night at the mine, even though he had no qualms about traveling through the wilds cross-country all alone like California Joe, without even a dog for company.

Igadbois wrote

I think that Tumlinson created them from a rawhide map that his Dad obtained in Mexico.

Is it possible that the original was a cloth map, rather than rawhide? There was a mention of someone that saw a cloth duplicate on a cloth the SIZE of a pillowcase (NOT made of a pillowcase nor was it a pillowcase, just the SIZE - want to make that point clear before someone misinterprets that) and that it was a perfect match. Could it have been the original map? A cloth map would make more sense for packing on the trail, as one possible argument. We may never know of course.

It is amazing, with all the persons that have been attracted to researching and searching for these treasures, that so little has been found or proven to be true.

I used to think the same thing, but after spending some time out there and getting to know some "real" treasure hunters, I'm convinced of the following:

1) It's truly a wilderness type landscape once you get off the beaten path - there are countless areas that things could and likely have been hidden that will probably never be found.

2) The "real" treasure hunter would very likely NEVER tell a soul if they really found something out there - they would likely take it out little by little over time and nobody would be the wiser - it's illegal since it's Federal land, but it's a risk that some people are willing to take.

3) Who knows how much "stuff" of value has been taken out of there since the 1800's - that's a LONG time for people to have removed artifacts and potential wealth leaving no ability to ever provide legitimate PROOF that something was found out there.

I realize this was addressed to someone else but I have to agree completely with 1), respectfully disagree with 2) at least in part, and agree with 3). Many treasure hunters are so thrilled with having made a great discovery that they want to tell all treasure hunters of their good fortune, and unless the actual site were inside the wilderness boundaries, obtaining legal ownership would not be that difficult. Even if in the wilderness area, if the treasure were large enough and enough proof could be obtained, there may be a way to get legal title and would then be worth the effort and red tape to try rather than to risk prison and-or fines. As an example of this I would point to the cave of gold bars in Ft Huachuca, which the Army even provided equipment and assistance to help excavate; it benefits the govt for a treasure hunter to find a treasure in a monetary way, but it takes very solid proof to get them to go along and this is perhaps understandable too. As our mutual amigo Joe has pointed out, in past some individuals had no hesitation to start blasting away beautiful landmarks in the belief that they would thus uncover treasures, so the heavy restrictions are something we can thank people like Celeste Jones and Ed Piper for having brought about.

On the statement you quoted, a part of the problem is that we too often get away from original sources, and a great deal of fiction (embellishment) has been added onto what are remarkable stories that didn't need any. Just a personal opinion but I think our best sources are generally the oldest - as they are closest to the source.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"What he told his friend John Chuning led Chuning to a spot on the northern side of the range quite close to the Salt river, or maybe Chuning had given up on following the clues and was simply prospecting when he found the mine that he, Ely and Bark then worked?"

The portion I highlighted is probably closest to the truth. I don't think Ely ever worked that mine.

Actually, Bark was surprised when Chuning first told him where he found the mine they eventually worked together. Bark states in his manuscript, "This mine that John discovered while hunting the Dutchman is at least twelve miles off the course....". Thomas, on page 94 quotes an article from the Florence Tribune, Dec. 7, 1901:

"News was brought to Florence this week that John Chuning, who has been prospecting the neighborhood of Weaver's Needle and the Four Peaks, has at last found what he believes to be the Lost Dutchman mine -- a rich gold property with a history. Chuning discovered old workings consisting of a shaft and tunnel, which he is now cleaning out, a short distance west of the Needle which can be plainly seen due north from Florence in the Superstition Mountains."

You can draw an arch 12 miles from that mine to get an idea of where Chuning really thought the mine was.

Our best to you, Beth and the pups.

Joe

 

[coazon de oro]

It is amazing, with all the persons that have been attracted to researching and searching for these treasures, that so little has been found or proven to be true.

I used to think the same thing, but after spending some time out there and getting to know some "real" treasure hunters, I'm convinced of the following:

1) It's truly a wilderness type landscape once you get off the beaten path - there are countless areas that things could and likely have been hidden that will probably never be found.

2) The "real" treasure hunter would very likely NEVER tell a soul if they really found something out there - they would likely take it out little by little over time and nobody would be the wiser - it's illegal since it's Federal land, but it's a risk that some people are willing to take.

3) Who knows how much "stuff" of value has been taken out of there since the 1800's - that's a LONG time for people to have removed artifacts and potential wealth leaving no ability to ever provide legitimate PROOF that something was found out there.

Paul,

Being a crook does not define a real treasure hunter, it just defines a real crook. There are real treasure hunters that follow the laws. Sounds like you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.

I don't believe a gold mine as rich as the LDM can be kept secret. I would say the cache is still intact. The cache should be worth around six million, but that's just peanuts compared to the value of the mine it's self.

I still believe in our Government, and know that it would reward a find this big if the finder follows the law.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Hi,

My OPINION is that neither statement is accurate. First - it depends on who's book or transcript or article, you have read. What started out as a handful of clues back when I first got interested in the Lost Dutchman, it has turned to hundreds of clues.

However, taking the AVERAGE of when someone spoke of a "hole", the most common statement(s) were "on the way to my mine, you can see a peak with a hole in it" - or another one is "you have to climb through a hole to get to my mine". And, there are several other versions of the "hole". However, I believe that Joe Deering mentioned climbing through a hole.

Now, without getting into big long explanations, "clues" are only as good as their sources, and, obviously, there have been many, many variations on Walt's clues. (and not just the one about the hole).

In my opinion - and make no mistake, I look, and have looked - at many a place on Google Earth, but, you cannot "see" what you are looking for. For instance, here is a picture I took 2 years ago - and, knowing EXACTLY where it is - by exact GPS coordinates - you cannot find it on GE.

Beth

Beth,

Some GPS devices are set @ NAD 27, Topo maps also use NAD 27. Google earth on the other hand uses WGS 84, this can throw you off quite a bit. You can change your GPS data setting to match, or may be able to change the G.E. setting. You can find out more on this if you go to GPS Mapping Software.

Homar

 

[Cubfan64]

It is amazing, with all the persons that have been attracted to researching and searching for these treasures, that so little has been found or proven to be true.

I used to think the same thing, but after spending some time out there and getting to know some "real" treasure hunters, I'm convinced of the following:

1) It's truly a wilderness type landscape once you get off the beaten path - there are countless areas that things could and likely have been hidden that will probably never be found.

2) The "real" treasure hunter would very likely NEVER tell a soul if they really found something out there - they would likely take it out little by little over time and nobody would be the wiser - it's illegal since it's Federal land, but it's a risk that some people are willing to take.

3) Who knows how much "stuff" of value has been taken out of there since the 1800's - that's a LONG time for people to have removed artifacts and potential wealth leaving no ability to ever provide legitimate PROOF that something was found out there.

Paul,

Being a crook does not define a real treasure hunter, it just defines a real crook. There are real treasure hunters that follow the laws. Sounds like you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.

I don't believe a gold mine as rich as the LDM can be kept secret. I would say the cache is still intact. The cache should be worth around six million, but that's just peanuts compared to the value of the mine it's self.

I still believe in our Government, and know that it would reward a find this big if the finder follows the law.

Homar

You and Oro may be right about my comment #2 above. Trust me when I tell you that I don't hang out with folks like that, but I guess I'm just getting more and more cynical as I get older .

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Cub,

I hear you, loud and clear - I, too, seem to become more and more cynical, the older I get. Maybe I shouldn't get any older

Homar,

You will forgive me, I hope - when I say --- I know how to read a map, a topo map, google map AND my GPS. You cannot see that on
GE. Which was my only point - what you see on GE is not always what you get - my point was no more complicated than that.

Beth

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cubber, "I" trust you, sigh

Incidentally I could invite you-all on the final stage of the Tayopa search, since I had it legally locked up. The Dutchman is different.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Cubfan wrote

Trust me when I tell you that I don't hang out with folks like that, but I guess I'm just getting more and more cynical as I get older :Smiley:.

Aha! Don't try to pull the wool over our eyes now amigo, I have seen the dangerous desperadoes you run with at the rendezvous!

I hope all is well with you and Connie,
Oroblanco



PS I found your theme song too!

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I guess you were tied up with bb at the Rendezvous, when Paul showed up with a few of his close friends:

They didn't hang around too long, as someone asked them for their stinkin baadges!

Take care,

Joe

 

[peralta]

Hello my friends, I was reading your discussions and decided to help advise yous if you accept it.the map is on the stones to through you off but it will help you if you can distinguish and find the main markings.I searched the four peaks region long ago and its not there.the zig zag lines are for one area and the hole is in another.there is a marking of a dark round hole on a curved stone with a mine marking above it but its on a five foot boulder and not on top of a mountain. The markings are still not the way in.now read closely. Go to the cross stone and you will see that same curved line with a mine symbol in it.this is showing you the same markings as the heart stone and they even put a tiny heart above it.now you know that you have to follow the cross stone.notice the long zig zag line, its telling you to go down x amount of feet in the ground.but first notice a half moon marking? This is the same boulder with the markings of the tunnel and mine symbol.but a line is marked to circle the boulder and puts you on one side of the stone and ends with a dark dot.this is a shadow line that does circle the boulder and the dot is a shadow circle (mine symbol ).now look at the curve that puts a half moon around the shadow mine symbol. This is the only line that isn't visible at the true entry site.you or I would have to draw that half moon line on the ground next to the side of the boulder on the ground. This my friends is the entrance to the mine.
If you never believed me this will show you that looking and studying is very difficult but it can be done.im not worried about someone finding the markings because its like looking for a needle in a haystack. You have to follow other markings to get you to the site.those of you who follow my writings will understand what im talking about and I think you will enjoy following markings to the teasure, have fun.

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe - ROFL

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe,

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

#%$^^& Joe, quit picking on my Tayopa associates ! . So the ORO's don't have any badges

oh well, you are forgiven

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Twisted Fork]

Skumpa:

Are you referring to these:

Both of these maps have a familiar touch to them as in Peralta. Wsketch is a give away in both the mannerism and the scale. Refers to draw on the left with it's right slope being of interest. Triad at base of draw. Divination finds........

Certain hat peak on the far right in the distance (not to be confused with a Sombrero as this is code) at this point, you are standing at the apex view for this paper map and that is what one will see from the mouth of a boxed in canyon as it opens, to open space, a table; a page...a days journey between them, journal recorded, a place made record of, a place of stores if you like; of value.

The old old military trail is your path and is as old as the Apache themselves. Goes for miles and miles. Any way we are all looking at it, the hat shaped peak is the key to getting alined at this point. It is not a Sombrero as everything they drew was in strict wishy washy reference, just like the tablets of which were handed down to them after the Jesuits fell. A sort of Numbskull grammar if you do or you don't. The map also cuts into pieces.

This is Spanish code, handed down through Mexican independence. They are of two different mannerisms intertwined with a little cowboy thrown in. Same code and I highly doubt that Waltz acquired this little scrap by any means other than in cold blood.

 

[skumpa]

OK, one more question, if you go to google earth, n 33 27 11 .70 111.22 01 .06 w on top of the rock or boulder, do you see a arrow pointing to the area I suggested before? Has anyone been on top of that spot or does some one have a lot of pics of this area?

Thanks
Skumpa

 

[charliejr]

@Skumpa, working on a map, still searching on info. When I get to a stopping point, I will edit this post and place it here. Oh, and there is a Four Peaks mine. It is listed in the U.S.. (Got it on plot to.)

Oh, and that looks like a arrow pointer to me. I'm going to follow it and see what happens.

Looks like it points to a huge heart (still following trail). There is a path that goes up the side of the face. Mons (rock monuments for markers, possibly). At this size, you could possibly see the from the peak. Yep, just turned around and there it is bright as day.

Let's see, direct line of site of caves, and rock mons. At this position you can see the entire valley and all the areas of markings. Face, turtle, caves, big markings. Actually turtle to hoyo ventanta (beside the big horse). So neat!

At 33 26 454 111 23 041 @ 29Ft looking down, you can see -I think a bird, some markings, maybe.

Popped a line from a pointer rock in that area goes by two caves -following trail.

Followed, I think a bird. Found a rock with a hoyo on top, shadow on bottom, like a dead fall rock Old Dog once described. You can see it at 24 Feet 33 26.974 111 22.20

It seems there are many rocks with holes in them (obvious yes, but I am not sure if they are for sighting up). I found another cave (with a big rock in the opening near a Mons.)

Still following trail. Building a interesting file.

 

[Cubfan64]

charliejr, not clear, but the way you wrote the response makes it seem as thought you are physically following the trail from the location. Is that the case, or are you doing all of this off Google Earth or another mapping program?