coazon de oro
Bronze Member
My conclusion: Preposterous!
Homar P. Olivarez
Homar P. Olivarez
The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?
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gollum
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Roy,
Janie never saw that shack. She wasn't even born in 1949 (she was born on August 30, 1954). She was only six or seven when her dad died. She would have almost no first hand knowledge of anything having to do with the stone maps. She was just too young. As Azmula told me, she got all her information from family members (mainly her aunt Lois Feltner).
To answer your question, YES. The chimney and the galleon stone DO raise more doubts about the stones' authenticity than I have had before, but like I said to Beth; before jumping on the complete hoax bandwagon, wait for Michael's (Azmula) Article in the SMHS Journal to come out. He says everything he found while talking to many of the relatives is backed up.
We'll see.
Best-Mike
Janie never saw that shack. She wasn't even born in 1949 (she was born on August 30, 1954). She was only six or seven when her dad died. She would have almost no first hand knowledge of anything having to do with the stone maps. She was just too young. As Azmula told me, she got all her information from family members (mainly her aunt Lois Feltner).
To answer your question, YES. The chimney and the galleon stone DO raise more doubts about the stones' authenticity than I have had before, but like I said to Beth; before jumping on the complete hoax bandwagon, wait for Michael's (Azmula) Article in the SMHS Journal to come out. He says everything he found while talking to many of the relatives is backed up.
We'll see.
Best-Mike
OP
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Oroblanco
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Mike,
Has it occurred to you that Travis may well have carved the Peralta stones, NOT intending them to be a hoax? Or do you hold that the galleon stone and chimney mural were hoaxes?
I look forward to reading Azmula's article, but these other Tumlinson stones weigh heavily for me.
Homar, may I ask why your conclusion is 'preposterous'? Thank you in advance,
Roy
Has it occurred to you that Travis may well have carved the Peralta stones, NOT intending them to be a hoax? Or do you hold that the galleon stone and chimney mural were hoaxes?
I look forward to reading Azmula's article, but these other Tumlinson stones weigh heavily for me.
Homar, may I ask why your conclusion is 'preposterous'? Thank you in advance,
Roy
coazon de oro
Bronze Member
Why would Travis or anybody carve a fake map then spend years trying to solve it?
It is very possible that he carved the galleon stone, how long did he spend trying to solve that one, or the mural?
If he did indeed carve this other galleon stone, it would be to hide the fact that the PSM's were real, claiming he carved them also. This would be the best way to keep certain family members from spilling the beans.
Homar P. Olivarez
It is very possible that he carved the galleon stone, how long did he spend trying to solve that one, or the mural?
If he did indeed carve this other galleon stone, it would be to hide the fact that the PSM's were real, claiming he carved them also. This would be the best way to keep certain family members from spilling the beans.
Homar P. Olivarez
gollum
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Oroblanco said:
REALLY Roy?
How could he not intend them to be a hoax if he carved them? His uncle had them for several years, and HE never knew? Travis never told his uncle? He let him spend a lot of his meager pension and allowed him to get a sponsor in his landlord for about four trips into the Supers? He sat up late nights with more than one of his friends in Oregon and Apache Junction trying to figure out the stones? He spent much of his own time and money on about a dozen trips into the Supers trying to solve the stones? He pointed to the big hole on the trail map and told his close friend that if he could ever figure out where that hole was he'd be a millionaire. All just BS from the man that made them and kept them secret (for the most part) for the entire twelve years he owned them? The man that has never been shown to have offered them for sale to anybody ? The man who never had them published in any articles in magazines or papers (EASILY if he had wanted to)?
Sorry Roy. TOO many VERY important questions just don't have adequate answers for me to jump in your boat yet.
Mike
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...and while we are at it,
lets not forget Travis' good friend in Apache Junction Charlie Miller. The same Charlie Miller that Travis brought the stones to his home right after finding them and helped Travis clean them off. The same Charlie Miller that said he absolutely remembered the little roots growing out of the grooves in the stones while helping to clean them?
Also don't forget Al Reser who was friends with Travis in AJ who said that Charlie had told him the same story shortly after Travis "found" the stones.
Once again, too much testimony from honorable sources to just say that what Janie told Garry was the gospel.
Mike
lets not forget Travis' good friend in Apache Junction Charlie Miller. The same Charlie Miller that Travis brought the stones to his home right after finding them and helped Travis clean them off. The same Charlie Miller that said he absolutely remembered the little roots growing out of the grooves in the stones while helping to clean them?
Also don't forget Al Reser who was friends with Travis in AJ who said that Charlie had told him the same story shortly after Travis "found" the stones.
Once again, too much testimony from honorable sources to just say that what Janie told Garry was the gospel.
Mike
Blindbowman
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i can take you right to where the stones were found and tumlinson lied about where he found them .. you take note of what Charlie Miller said .. he is correct ...
i know for a fact tumlinson did not create these stones in fact he was trying to rise money from making fakes the same way julia did to try to rise money to keep searching for the sorce of the stones ...
sorry i have evidennce i have not made public as of yet .. and yes i know for a fact tumlinson did not make these stones ..fact !
i know for a fact tumlinson did not create these stones in fact he was trying to rise money from making fakes the same way julia did to try to rise money to keep searching for the sorce of the stones ...
sorry i have evidennce i have not made public as of yet .. and yes i know for a fact tumlinson did not make these stones ..fact !
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Oroblanco
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Coazon de oro wrote
This point raised by Homar and expounded on by Mike, all the testimonies etc that say Travis was "trying to solve" the stone maps etc how do we KNOW what in heck he really was doing in the Superstitions at all? Were we there? How do we know that Travis was not just out in the Superstitions hunting for the Lost Dutchman or Peralta mines, without using the stone maps at all? This is shaky ground.
As for Travis and that statement about the hole in the stone, if he had faked them, do you expect that he would make a comment that they WERE fakes? More on this in a bit.
In this subject there is a great deal of assumption going on. What we have that is not someone's word, is a set of carved stones, supposedly found by Travis Tumlinson, and other carved stones on similar subject matter and carved in a similar style, created by the same man. I do not buy the coincidence explanation, or that he faked them to throw off the competition on the real stones. Does anyone doubt that Travis added the "zeros" to the one stone?
We can not know what Travis was actually doing at all. I would like to see an expert opinion on a comparison of the carvings on the 'galleon' stone, the 'mural' chimney, and the Peralta stones - if an expert said they were not done by the same man, that would help the case that the Peralta stones were genuine, on the other hand if an expert said they were done by the same hand - what does that tell us?
Mike wrote;
Is your world black and white? Are there only two possibilities, or are there other possibilities? A hoax is one, the genuine article is another, decoration is another, just for fun is another, boredom is another, a 'pious fraud' is yet another. We can not know what motivation Travis may have had. It is not a case of JUST hoax or genuine.
Mike also wrote
Why should he? If you created a fake treasure map, would you tell anyone? Especially a relative who later proved to be less than honest? And how do we KNOW he never let his uncle in on it? By the word of Bob?
Mike also wrote
What a great way to get a grubstake! How do we KNOW that they were using those stones at all for that search? We don't. Assuming their motive and activities here.
Mike also wrote
How do we know what he was doing, sitting up late nights? We don't. That is more assumption, and taking the word of someone as fact.
Mike also wrote
He spent much of his own money on about a dozen trips into the Supers, but how do we KNOW he was trying to solve the stones? We don't. Another assumption.
Mike also wrote
Perhaps he feared prosecution for perpetrating a fraud, were his stones to be found out by the authorities? Do we know what his reason(s) were, for not making them public? We don't. Another assumption.
Mike also wrote
How do we KNOW that he never ever offered to sell the stones? We don't. Another assumption.
Mike also wrote
As with the earlier reply, it is against the law to perpetrate frauds, to delude investors out of money and even for making fake 'works of art' though that is rather a grey area. For an analogy, suppose you sawed off a shotgun to make it a pistol, would you go telling everyone you had done so, or show pictures of it in a magazine article with your name? This is more assumption, to come up with explanations for what ever motives Travis had at the time - we really don't know!
You may accuse me of bias, and it may be true; I have never been convinced the Peralta stones are the real thing so need to be convinced - false until proven true. I am not willing to give the benefit of the doubt for Travis, a man I never met, so perhaps I am not fair. However the evidence now seems tilted rather clearly against the Peralta stones genuine-ness. The only 'experts' who ever examined the stones, including Father Polzer, all gave opinions (published) that the Peralta stones are modern fakes; now we have evidence that Travis himself was the artist, in the other stone carvings he did, along with Jane's statements to Garry, though she told you a statement which on the face of it, appears to be at variance but may not be - we should not read into a statement more than is really there. What she told you was that Travis was not perpetrating a hoax - which could be true even if he created the stone maps. He may have made them for a neat display to put in his own home at a later date, just as ONE possibility. Did she tell you specifically in your private messages, that Travis did not carve the stones? That would definitely be at variance.
Travis using the stones to help raise grubstake money? That is one possibility, which does not help prove they are genuine. You can use fakes to help raise money from investors as well as the real item.
If you have evidence to prove the Peralta stones are genuine - now would be the perfect time to post it and present the case to the world. Would you believe me if I said I have evidence to prove I know the location of the Dutchman mine, but I refused to post it? Of course not - so the time is ripe for showing your trump card, if you have one.
Sorry for the long reply, was attempting to answer the barrage of questions in some semblance of order, so as not to be missing any.
Roy
This point raised by Homar and expounded on by Mike, all the testimonies etc that say Travis was "trying to solve" the stone maps etc how do we KNOW what in heck he really was doing in the Superstitions at all? Were we there? How do we know that Travis was not just out in the Superstitions hunting for the Lost Dutchman or Peralta mines, without using the stone maps at all? This is shaky ground.
As for Travis and that statement about the hole in the stone, if he had faked them, do you expect that he would make a comment that they WERE fakes? More on this in a bit.
In this subject there is a great deal of assumption going on. What we have that is not someone's word, is a set of carved stones, supposedly found by Travis Tumlinson, and other carved stones on similar subject matter and carved in a similar style, created by the same man. I do not buy the coincidence explanation, or that he faked them to throw off the competition on the real stones. Does anyone doubt that Travis added the "zeros" to the one stone?
We can not know what Travis was actually doing at all. I would like to see an expert opinion on a comparison of the carvings on the 'galleon' stone, the 'mural' chimney, and the Peralta stones - if an expert said they were not done by the same man, that would help the case that the Peralta stones were genuine, on the other hand if an expert said they were done by the same hand - what does that tell us?
Mike wrote;
Is your world black and white? Are there only two possibilities, or are there other possibilities? A hoax is one, the genuine article is another, decoration is another, just for fun is another, boredom is another, a 'pious fraud' is yet another. We can not know what motivation Travis may have had. It is not a case of JUST hoax or genuine.
Mike also wrote
Why should he? If you created a fake treasure map, would you tell anyone? Especially a relative who later proved to be less than honest? And how do we KNOW he never let his uncle in on it? By the word of Bob?
Mike also wrote
What a great way to get a grubstake! How do we KNOW that they were using those stones at all for that search? We don't. Assuming their motive and activities here.
Mike also wrote
How do we know what he was doing, sitting up late nights? We don't. That is more assumption, and taking the word of someone as fact.
Mike also wrote
He spent much of his own money on about a dozen trips into the Supers, but how do we KNOW he was trying to solve the stones? We don't. Another assumption.
Mike also wrote
Perhaps he feared prosecution for perpetrating a fraud, were his stones to be found out by the authorities? Do we know what his reason(s) were, for not making them public? We don't. Another assumption.
Mike also wrote
How do we KNOW that he never ever offered to sell the stones? We don't. Another assumption.
Mike also wrote
As with the earlier reply, it is against the law to perpetrate frauds, to delude investors out of money and even for making fake 'works of art' though that is rather a grey area. For an analogy, suppose you sawed off a shotgun to make it a pistol, would you go telling everyone you had done so, or show pictures of it in a magazine article with your name? This is more assumption, to come up with explanations for what ever motives Travis had at the time - we really don't know!
You may accuse me of bias, and it may be true; I have never been convinced the Peralta stones are the real thing so need to be convinced - false until proven true. I am not willing to give the benefit of the doubt for Travis, a man I never met, so perhaps I am not fair. However the evidence now seems tilted rather clearly against the Peralta stones genuine-ness. The only 'experts' who ever examined the stones, including Father Polzer, all gave opinions (published) that the Peralta stones are modern fakes; now we have evidence that Travis himself was the artist, in the other stone carvings he did, along with Jane's statements to Garry, though she told you a statement which on the face of it, appears to be at variance but may not be - we should not read into a statement more than is really there. What she told you was that Travis was not perpetrating a hoax - which could be true even if he created the stone maps. He may have made them for a neat display to put in his own home at a later date, just as ONE possibility. Did she tell you specifically in your private messages, that Travis did not carve the stones? That would definitely be at variance.
Blindbowman said:i can take you right to where the stones were found and tumlinson lied about where he found them .. you take note of what Charlie Miller said .. he is correct ...
i know for a fact tumlinson did not create these stones in fact he was trying to rise money from making fakes the same way julia did to try to rise money to keep searching for the sorce of the stones ...
sorry i have evidennce i have not made public as of yet .. and yes i know for a fact tumlinson did not make these stones ..fact !
Travis using the stones to help raise grubstake money? That is one possibility, which does not help prove they are genuine. You can use fakes to help raise money from investors as well as the real item.
If you have evidence to prove the Peralta stones are genuine - now would be the perfect time to post it and present the case to the world. Would you believe me if I said I have evidence to prove I know the location of the Dutchman mine, but I refused to post it? Of course not - so the time is ripe for showing your trump card, if you have one.
Sorry for the long reply, was attempting to answer the barrage of questions in some semblance of order, so as not to be missing any.
Roy
Blindbowman
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i wish it was that easy for me when i wanted answers ....lol
gollum
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Its amazing to me Roy that you can move from one forum to another and completely forget what was on the first.
I am not going to repost all the evidences I posted on the LDM Forum, but you should reread them.
Mike
I am not going to repost all the evidences I posted on the LDM Forum, but you should reread them.
Mike
somehiker
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"i wish it was that easy for me when i wanted answers ....lol"
BB:
The answers are never easy.
Assumptions are,and cost much less in effort than the truth.
Much of the evidence which we have,both for and against the original stones being genuine artifacts comes to us by way of he said/she said/it has been said accounts,much of which remains undocumented in a convincing manner.
Regards:SH.
BB:
The answers are never easy.
Assumptions are,and cost much less in effort than the truth.
Much of the evidence which we have,both for and against the original stones being genuine artifacts comes to us by way of he said/she said/it has been said accounts,much of which remains undocumented in a convincing manner.
Regards:SH.
Springfield
Silver Member
gollum said:
"Objection, Your Honor. Leading the witness".
"Objection sustained. Jury shall disregard".
"Has the jury reached a verdict?"
"No, Your Honor".
We can't know what Travis Tumlinson's motivation was regarding the stones, but we can speculate that it most likely was not to perpetrate a simple hoax-joke-prank. A complicated 'red herring'-type act of disinformation? Possibly, based on similar occurances elsewhere. His generally accepted 'found them on the side of the road' explanation is clearly flawed by his family history, IMO, but my guess is that Tumlinson had a clear reason for his actions before, during and after the 'discovery'. The question to me is not whether he lied about finding the stones, but why he lied. Even if we become convinced that he carved the stones, that still does not explain his underlying motivation or the voracity of the stones' content. The information on the stones may be original propriatory records (doubtful IMO), they may have been copied from another source by Tumlinson himself (possible), they may be intended to mislead people away from other locations (possible), they may refer to another venue entirely (possible), and who knows how many other explanations. Things are seldom what they seem, and in this case we may never know.
gollum
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Spring,
If he did carve them all, my interest in them ceases to exist. I don't care a lick about historical value they may represent. All of whatever interest I may have in them stems solely from the ability to find something quite valuable if they are correctly decoded.
But, since most of my time has been spent trying to unravel their history from 1949 until present, I haven't spent much time in trying to decode them. That is why I don't care a lick one way or the other if they are hoaxes or authentic treasure maps. All I do is report on what I have found out and my conclusions based on that evidence.
Mike
If he did carve them all, my interest in them ceases to exist. I don't care a lick about historical value they may represent. All of whatever interest I may have in them stems solely from the ability to find something quite valuable if they are correctly decoded.
But, since most of my time has been spent trying to unravel their history from 1949 until present, I haven't spent much time in trying to decode them. That is why I don't care a lick one way or the other if they are hoaxes or authentic treasure maps. All I do is report on what I have found out and my conclusions based on that evidence.
Mike
Blindbowman
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gollum said:
god damn , glory be ,,, someone knows the value of the correct translation .. i knew you had it in you mike ... damn ya good .....i tip my hat to you sir ...
i could fill a book with what i know about the stones ..
somehiker
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Mike:
What have you learned of the history of Pegleg Tumlinson's treasure hunting? The treasure tale in Dobie's book "Coronado's Children" revolves around a single "burro load" of gold coins.Did any other tale involving Pegleg speak of a chest of treasure?
Regards:Wayne
What have you learned of the history of Pegleg Tumlinson's treasure hunting? The treasure tale in Dobie's book "Coronado's Children" revolves around a single "burro load" of gold coins.Did any other tale involving Pegleg speak of a chest of treasure?
Regards:Wayne
somehiker
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Just for a bit of comic relief................http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3685168/UFOs-fly-out-of-giant-haboob.html
Big jets on final approach to KPHX.
With their landing lights on for visibility.
Big jets on final approach to KPHX.
With their landing lights on for visibility.
Springfield
Silver Member
gollum said:
Hmmm ... I guess I'm on the same page as you as far as trying to 'solve' the stones. I agree, if it can be shown that Tumlinson did carve those symbols, I feel that trying to decipher them is most likely a total waste of time.
OP
OP
Oroblanco
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gollum said:
Ah, the "go back and re-read" recommendation you are so fond of. Perhaps you might benefit from such an exercise? Even the context of the "crazy to sell" statement which can be interpreted in several ways, with Robert describing Travis as a "lazy stupid" person, could fit with a meaning as to risking legal proceedings by selling. Also the statement in the way of prediction, that Travis would never see a penny from his efforts, could be an allusion to his having been the creator of the stones in the first place - hence hinting they will not lead to treasures at all.
On that other forum, the theory that Travis only carved copies of genuine originals, and these copies are what has been examined is interesting. There are very definitely copies of the stone maps in existence. However if those at the museum and the same examined by Polzer, DA and the public are Travis-made copies where are the originals? Without those originals, it is pure speculation to say that Travis made copies and this is what we see today.
As to motivation of Travis, it is not possible to know what was in someone's mind when they did something. Perhaps he simply liked to carve, and liked that subject matter as his choice? I carve wood, and while I have sold a few examples <on gunstocks, and one gun cabinet>, mostly I do not - they are mostly not even put out for decorations, and my motivation is that I simply enjoy the carving. Is it not one of the possibilities, that Travis Tumlinson's motivation could have been that he simply enjoyed carving stone? There are some notable differences between the stone maps set and the galleon stone, (bas relief on the galleon) yet a carver makes the decisions as to what sort of work he does. I am no expert in stone carving but do know that the medium itself sets limits on what you carve; perhaps the stone itself was not of the correct type for doing a bas relief while the galleon stone was? If the stone were too brittle, you could not make bas relief for it would tend to flake off leaving a mess. Wetting the stone (as was discovered with the Thoen stone) often makes a great difference in how easily it will carve. The letters look quite similar to my un-trained eye, which a handwriting expert might be able to make conclusions on. But as for what motive there may have been to create fake Spanish treasure maps I doubt we can KNOW what Travis had in mind, if he carved the stones.
Just have a short bit of time, will try to stop by later this evening and catch up on both forums.
Roy
PS one more thing - I have been called names for my skepticism on these stone maps, and even lost friends over it. I don't trust ANY treasure maps, period; I do not wish to "crush a dream" for anyone, quite the opposite, I wish to encourage people to get out and go treasure hunting - but only with sound, genuine information to work from. False info is the worst. However even if the stone maps were 100% fakes, if they get you out looking in the wilds, then they still serve a purpose and your chances of finding a treasure of some sort is much greater than if you simply sit at home and never go out to look. So I guess that I have to respectfully disagree with Mike's view, even if Travis did make those stones, their history as objects to drive folks out there treasure hunting still has some value.
Blindbowman
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some times i wonder about you guys .. lost and confused in the big world ... wow ....
Springfield
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Oroblanco said:
If you're a realist, it's only common sense not to trust a treasure map. Sound, genuine information? I've commented on the overwhelmingly long odds against that previously. False info isn't just the 'worst', it's the norm. Why would valid info be available to the public?
I would hope it would take more than a treasure map to entice folks out of the house and into the hills. One problem with the concept is that some folks may become obsessed and lose a decade or three chasing a will o' the wisp that never existed. I've seen that happen to individuals. Oh well, beats sitting in front of the tube all day I guess.
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