The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[gollum]

Hey Roy,

JEEEEEZUS ROY! I was only joking!

I had an interesting phone call today! I promised not to openly post any of the information they gave me, but I will say that I was walked step-by-step through EVERY single part of the stone maps. I was given very specific information about several of the landmarks.

EVERY piece of info I was given is corroborated specifically on topo maps of the area. Every peak and canyon, down to elevations forming shapes of mountains that fit right in with shapes on the stone maps!

Now, I know what your question is! The answer I promised not to post, because it was my first question after getting the info.

So, still on the fence, but I will say that if they were faked, then they were faked by somebody with an intimate knowledge of the Superstitions.

Best,

Mike

 

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[Oroblanco]

Greetings Gollum, Azmula and everyone,
I will let Gollum and Aurum answer the questions posted by Azmula, that is the answers which go along with the story that they are genuine - I am convinced they are either fakes (most likely) or if genuine, have some error that prevents anyone who does not know the key from ever finding the legendary mines.

Mike, don't take me too seriously here, just trying to present the closing arguments for the 'prosecution' that they are frauds or at minimum not worthy of a great deal of effort. Not to add to the pile here but have you considered that little point, which you have just raised? The maps are quite correct to the actual topography right? No major errors you could find? What does that tell you? Do you believe that the Peraltas would have been capable of making maps with that degree of topographic accuracy, or someone much later with topographic maps to use as overlays, maps made with the assistance of aerial photography? This is just another of those points of doubt for me, for every old map (older than the US Civil War) that I have ever seen, even maps done up by trained cartographers for battlefields, fortresses, etc all contain visible errors, sometimes quite large errors (like the "Island of California" on some old maps) while these Peralta stones have maps which fit remarkably well with MODERN maps, or at least maps that date to the 1940s. Yes I would agree that if they are frauds, they were made by someone with intimate knowledge of the Superstitions....now can you think of anyone who fits that description, like a famous Lost Dutchman author for instance, hmm?

Perhaps we will see the maps put to the ultimate test yet again, as the monsoon is officially over now so it will be pleasant up there soon.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Randy!
I will grant you that it is entirely possible that a Peralta or other Mexican could have created maps in stone with this degree of accuracy. I am only pointing out how unusual it is to find a map that purportedly dates to 1847 with this level of accuracy. Even Santa Anna's army cartographers created maps with some big errors (thought to have contributed to the loss of one major battle in fact) and these were trained map makers. I have found errors in modern US topographic maps as well, but on the whole (no cheap pun intended) they have been very accurate, the greatest errors usually being the result of roads being moved since the map was last updated and modern development which also has been done after the map was last updated.

So we are left with the case that these maps are either made by the Peraltas, showing the route to their legendary lost mines in the Superstitions or they are frauds. There seems to be no middle ground. I don't understand the fence-sitters here (you are not alone Gollum) as really these must either be real or fakes, there is little risk in coming down on one side or the other; of course if one were to conclude that they are fakes, and they were proven real by someone finding the mines and becoming rich, then that person is likely to look me up to open that can of Whup-Arse on me for being partially responsible for their disbelief; however for someone to openly say that they are real, only to be proven wrong risks nothing but someone saying "I told you so" for there is no gold to lose in that case.

Randy posed a question:
How easy would it be for someone, creating the maps as they travel through the superstitions, to draw what they saw?


Drawing what they saw as they passed through, not too difficult, and what was most often done was what we call today a "Waybill" which shows the landmarks you should find on the path to the place you wish to get to. Maps covering whole regions were not the common way of marking down the route to mines or buried treasures (or hidden springs for that matter) by either Mexicans or later Americans, though military forces would go to the trouble of creating maps - but they needed maps showing whole areas for military purposes. This is NOT to say that the Peraltas WOULD NOT or COULD NOT have made stone maps to find their way back to the mines, however it was more common practice to make up simpler "Waybills" than to make up maps.

I don't wish to bore you good friends with too much of my rambling, but I have many problems with this.

1 - there is precious little evidence to prove there were any Peraltas ever being in the Superstitions

2 - there is no evidence of Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions, as in records of gold sold, claims filed etc.

3 - If the Peraltas had gold mines in the Superstitions, why did they not file claims on them, when we know they filed legal claims on both their silver mine in Sonora and the gold mine in the Bradshaws?

4 - If the Peraltas did have secret gold mines (and this is contrary to documented behavior of the Peraltas) why would they have needed maps to find them again? I have personally had small "mines" (pockets actually) in really remote places, and had no need of any map to find them again, and this was long before we had GPS devices; now I don't think that I am so much more intelligent than the Peraltas nor more skilled in traversing wilderness so why would they feel a need for maps?

5 - If they did have secret gold mines, and decided to make up maps to them, why would they make them of stone rather than leather or paper or wood? Stones are heavy, bulky, unwieldy, and brittle; they would have been a hindrance while traveling in known hostile land, and if the mines were being kept secret because of fear of Americans coming, then leather or paper maps would have been FAR easier to conceal than any stones.

6 - If the Peraltas had secret gold mines in the Superstitions, then why did they head for the La Paz district and later up to the Bradshaws instead of heading direct to the secret mines in the Superstitions? That just does not make any sense at all, if they really had a whole group of secret and incredibly rich gold mines, they would choose to instead go off to other grounds and have to search anew and compete with the "feared" Americans.

7 - If the Peraltas had the secret mines, and had made up the stone maps, why did they leave them behind instead of taking the maps back to Mexico? This does not make a bit of sense to me, unless they were burying them right next to a large and permanent landmark easily found again, which is not the case.

8 - It seems that whenever we venture into the Peralta legends, we start running into FRAUDS. We have the Reavis-Peralta land grant fraud, the embellishing of Peralta tales by authors Storm and Bicknell, and the stock scheme of MOEL while they owned these stone mysteries. This tendency to run into frauds alone is a good reason for those big red flags to be flying, and to have that dose of salt handy for everything we are supposed to swallow. It certainly caused ME to wrinkle one eye and look at all the evidence with greater caution than I would in other cases.

9 - Isn't it strange that these stones are found right along a major highway, which is just outside the Superstitions? The finders stated that at least one of the stones was sticking out of the dirt, and was noticeably rectangular in shape - yet even though the whole area has been gone over by cowhands on horseback, and that the highway was built by road workers who DO notice things along the route as they work (just look at how many Indian artifacts they have found for example) not ONE of them ever noticed the odd rectangular stone sticking out of the ground!

10 - The best scientists in the world have great difficulty in estimating the age of every stone inscription; and most often look for other evidence found in the same site (like coins or pottery which can be dated with some confidence) and even the very best experts have been FOOLED and not just once. Despite this, we are supposed to accept the affadavits of some geologists (rather than epigraphers, which are expert in the field of stone engravings) who are not even considered the best in California let alone the nation or world as absolute proof of the age of the engravings, and this despite the fact that the stones were CLEANED even before the geologists had a chance to look at them! Any expert who tells you he or she can tell the date of any stone inscription AFTER it has been cleaned, without any outside evidence like coins or pottery, is making an empty boast. Since the stones were in fact cleaned before the geologists examined it, how can we accept their verdict as any kind of absolute proof?

11 - The stones were sold by the remaining family members for CASH, now $1200 may not sound like much to some folks but in the early 1960s you could buy a new or nearly new CAR for that amount. This point does not fill one with confidence in their being genuine, even if the two brothers had passed away prior to the sale. MOEL then used the stones to bilk investors out of thousands of dollars, which resulted in a criminal investigation - now this is pointed to by some as being a GOOD thing, because it got the stones tested and brought them to the public light, but wouldn't it cast less shadowy clouds if the stones had NOT been the basis behind a stock scheme, been a part of a criminal investigation, and had been examined by experts (in epigraphy) without involving any frauds?

12 - then we learn that the state placed a value on the stones at NOTHING other than a curiosity which seems an odd thing if they were really some kind of ancient stone inscriptions by Peralta pioneers, doesn't it? Why did the state conclude that the stones had no real value? You would think that if the state believed them to be genuine, they would not have concluded their value was nothing more than a curiosity, wouldn't you?

13 - How is it that all four stones were found by the same people? Can you think of any other similar incident in the history of mankind? The Tumlinsons must have either been superb at searching for such things, or incredibly lucky to find all four!

14 - Why is it that not ONE of the stones is missing? Can you think of another incident in history where a full set of FOUR carved stone inscriptions after missing over a century were found, without ONE missing?

15 - Why is it that the stones look so pristine, with little apparent weathering? I guarantee you that if you take a stone, carve an inscription onto it and bury it in the ground, even in the "dry" Superstitions, come back 100 years later and it will be visibly degraded, and might even be difficult to read at all! These stones look like they were made last WEEK, not over 100 years ago - even the one which was supposedly sticking out of the ground shows no line where the weathering was different, which should be obvious as the exposed portion would be eroded differently than the portion below ground.

16 - Why is it that not ONE of the four stones is cracked or broken? Are they made of granite? Do you realize how rare that is, to find stones that had been buried and has not been broken or at least cracked? Yet these stones look excellent, no visible cracks even (though admittedly we are working from photographs.)

17 - If these stones are really maps to legendary lost gold mines of the Peraltas, then why is it that the Tumlinsons and all those who followed them failed to find a single ONE of these legendary mines? That to me is the final, ultimate test of any treasure map, and these stones have failed it miserably and repeatedly. Do you have some reason to think that you (anyone reading this) are so much more intelligent than the Tumlinsons or the others who have tried using those maps, that YOU could work out the secret flaw in them and thus find the lost mines? While I do not consider myself a total moron, I also do not consider myself so much more intelligent than other treasure hunters including the Tumlinsons, and if they failed to find any lost mines while using those "maps" then what reason would I have to think that I WOULD succeed, where so many others have failed?

18 - If these stones are authentic, why then do we have no record of them ever existing prior to 1949? Surely Pedro Peralta would have known of them, and most likely would have made some efforts to retreive them rather than go with the rest of the Peraltas into the Bradshaws? Yet there is no mention of them anywhere, prior to 1949...right in the heyday of famous Lost Dutchman Mine author and Peralta legend embellisher Barry Storm...!

This is not even the full account of the doubts; like Mike pointed out these "maps" match up remarkably well with modern topographic maps, quite possibly TOO remarkably well if you just think about it. To me, the whole Peralta legend in the Superstitions along with the stones is one for the campfires, not one to induce me to go spend hours in the archives and weeks in the hills.

I don't know how to sway your opinions to agree with me, and have presented every reason for doubt that I have; yet some are just more willing to propose some alternate theory to "shoe fit" the whole Peralta legend in with those stone "maps" and this only shows me that I am really wasting your time and my own since no matter what is said about being on a fence, your posts show something different. You provided me with a clear answer by not answering the simple question, are you willing to go up into the Superstitions yourself and put the stones to the ultimate test, even had a volunteer to accompany you, but I get no answer. My main reasons for trying to convince you NOT to waste your talents, abilities and time (not to mention efforts and travel expenses) was to prevent you wasting your time, or worse for you to go out and find that they are false, and end up quitting treasure hunting altogether. You have removed all my worries about your quitting the game with your optimism, (no optimist ever quit something because of a single incident) and the issue of wasted time is now moot too as you have mentioned that you are pouring hours and hours into researching these stones to prove every point of the story as absolutely as you possibly can; plus I have already spent hours on this myself, heck just re-reading the old posts has taken up hours for me and I am a pretty fast reader. So my reasons for debating against your studying these mystery stones are moot - there is no way I can ever convince you NOT to keep pursuing them so I won't waste any more of your time. If you DO finally prove them authentic beyond doubt (this involves finding a lost, rich Peralta gold mine in the Superstition mountains for me) I hope you will let me know and I won't mind your saying "I told you so." Thanks for your time, this has been an engrossing and fascinating discussion, I wish I could align myself with the believers and say the stones are genuine maps but I just have way too many doubts and find the alternate explanation to be the more likely in my opinion. That old semi-scientific test, Occam's Razor, in which the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, seems to me in this case to be a simple case of fraud. It seems a shame (to me) that these frauds are taking up the time and efforts of friends and fellow treasure hunters, but heck at least those folks won't be competing with me in following up OTHER leads, and other treasures. I will check back and read the continuing discussion but I don't think I have much (if anything) to add, pro or con. (HEY I heard that Hooray! )

Thanks for the very interesting discussion, good luck and good hunting, and I hope you all have a great day!
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Stones: Behind Oro Blanco

A) why 4 and all buried in the same place?? One would have been sufficient. In the past, if there was a map devided into various pieces for secrecy, each was deposited in a different place, never together, that would negate the very purpose of having the map devided??

B) As mentioned, with so people supposedly working the mines, why is there any necessity for a map? Having that many people involved, there was no possibility of keeping them secret, hence we -

" don need no stinkin maps"!

C) The only one that would have benifited was the Peralta land claims, especially in the period that they were supposed to be discovered which would have bolstered the land claim by showing a defiite presence of the Peraltas.

D) I do have to check more into this, I am only countering what has been presented in here, a very poor policy since I am only half informed. snicker.

Till Eulenspiegle de La MAncha - Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Hey Jose,

A. Can't prove anything one way or the other, as I can think of several good and bad reasons to put the stones in the same hole.

B. The necessity was for the reason that possibly happened....a massacre.

C. Which ti9me period are you talking about? 1949 When the stones were actually found? The 1880s during the Reavis-Peralta Land Grant Fraud?

D. I agree! SNICKER!

Best,

Mike

 

[audigger53]

Here this was an article about the LDM where he mentions the bubunking of the stones.

http://www.theoutlaws.com/gold1.htm

In 1973, the stone maps were definitely proved to be frauds, based upon the Florence Quadrangle Map of 1900 conducted by the United States Department of the Interior and which was first published in 1902, but who was the trickster with the ingenuity to carve and bury the stones?

I had a friend send me a copy of the article back in 2001(?), time flys when you are having fun.<G>

 

[gollum]

OK Audigger,

If you are basing your knowledge of the stones being fakes on that website, I have to tell you, you need a different source!

That site has more wrong facts than most, especially about the Peraltas in the Superstitions! There is not one piece of written evidence that shows the Peraltas EVER had ANY mines in the Superstitions! Even with as much circumstantial evidence as I have shown, I still have to admit that there is NO hard evidence (other than Linda Peralta's Family History with pictures) that the Peraltas were ever there.

Another BLAZING incongruity is your site's assertion that there were FOUR HUNDRED (400) people in the Peraltas Mining Expedition! I have NEVER seen or heard of any story that had that expedition at anything over 50-60. If 400 people were massacred at Massacre Canyon, I think there would have been MANY MORE BONES! Also, your site puts the massacre in 1864, when Peralta Family History puts it in 1847.

There are tons more, but I don't need to do this all day!

Now for the stones: Please explain the process that proved them to be fakes! When I have more reliable sources than your website, that say they were "at least" 100 years old (as of 1962 or 3).

To say that there is ABSOLUTE proof of them being fakes, you will need to show HARD EVIDENCE suppporting that statement! If true, it seems to me that there would be much more publicity about that PROOF!

I have been in contact with people that have been living in and around the Superstitions for 50-60 years, and have much personal knowledge. Like I said before, I had one person whom I tend to believe, walk me from point to point on the stones, matching canyons, peaks, ranges, and known monuments. Everything matches on topo maps of the area. And also as I have said before, I know what the next question is, but have promised the source not to say anything about it until given permission.

Oh, and Oro,

That reminds me about your question, that the stones closely match topo maps. We have broached this topic before in the Peg Leg Nuggets Thread! When you get lost in the mountains, what do you do? You climb to the top of the highest peak you can find, and get your bearings. Why couldn't the mapmaker have sat on some peak and drawn the maps, then transferred them to the stones?

And if you look carefully, it looks like the map on the Horse Side of the Horse/Priest Stone, is a smaller, less detailed version of the combined maps from the DON and CROSS Stones.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,
I know, I had already bowed out of the discussion with many doubts. I only post this in reply to two points.

The first being a possible reason for having buried the stones in the first place (assuming they were genuine) as being due to the massacre. The find site specified is well south of the massacre site. The stone maps would have a better claim to being genuine if they had been found in or adjacent to the Massacre Field site, but they were not - instead they were not even within the Superstitions but right along a major highway that skirts to the south of the range. This makes the logic of burying the stones due to the Indian attack less than strong.

Second, climbing to a peak to make up a map is certainly possible, and I would expect a military cartographer to do just that - but not ordinary prospectors and miners, which is what the Peraltas were. They were well to do, mind you, but not trained cartographers. Even so, think about that statement - that the Peraltas would haul stones up onto the highest peak in order to engrave maps onto them? Does that make a lot of sense to you? Of course they could have drawn the maps onto leather from the top of the highest hills, and transferred the map onto the stones, but again why would they bother when the leather maps would have been easier to carry, easier to conceal? More details that just do not make sense, and you folks have always seemed to me to be logical types but when we have delved into the Peraltas it appears that logic flies right out the window in favor of enthusiastic belief.

It is an enticing, exciting tale, that Peralta legend, with brave latter-day Conquistadors striking into the heart of hostile Indian country and discovering not one rich gold mine but a whole passel of them, then being suddenly attacked and only a single survivor escapes to tell the tale; over 100 years later four stone maps are found and only require that someone figure them out to have the map laid out to all of the riches hidden away by the Indians. Romantic, yes, exciting, yes, but ill-supported by evidence. There are far better tales as far as being backed up by verifiable documents, living descendants etc and far better clues or leads to pursue than the stone maps. Just compare the whole Peralta saga with the tales of Jacob Waltz for an eye opener - with Waltz we don't have a whole group of lost mines but one, with Waltz we don't have no evidence of any kind of gold ever produced, in fact we can track quite a few of his shipments and sales, and even a piece of the ore still existing (the match box) and I could go right on down the list, but again remember Waltz never made any maps - he never had any need of them to find his way back to his mine; and even when he was trying to tell his friends how to get there, he still didn't draw up any maps. The Peralta legends are soooo enticing, so alluring yet we are forced to accept a lot on faith and have to make some rather illogical leaps of logic to make the story fit with what "evidence" we do have. I would love to see someone find one of those lost Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions, then I could easily accept the whole saga lock, stock and barrel but until then is it worth your time, the most precious thing a human being possesses? I can almost hear Barry Storm chuckling in his grave.

Thanks for your time, sorry for "butting in" after bowing out, just wanted to reply to the two points raised.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hello again,
I know, I had already bowed out of the discussion with many doubts. I only post this in reply to two points.

The first being a possible reason for having buried the stones in the first place (assuming they were genuine) as being due to the massacre. The find site specified is well south of the massacre site. The stone maps would have a better claim to being genuine if they had been found in or adjacent to the Massacre Field site, but they were not - instead they were not even within the Superstitions but right along a major highway that skirts to the south of the range. This makes the logic of burying the stones due to the Indian attack less than strong.

Second, climbing to a peak to make up a map is certainly possible, and I would expect a military cartographer to do just that - but not ordinary prospectors and miners, which is what the Peraltas were. They were well to do, mind you, but not trained cartographers. Even so, think about that statement - that the Peraltas would haul stones up onto the highest peak in order to engrave maps onto them? Does that make a lot of sense to you? Of course they could have drawn the maps onto leather from the top of the highest hills, and transferred the map onto the stones, but again why would they bother when the leather maps would have been easier to carry, easier to conceal? More details that just do not make sense, and you folks have always seemed to me to be logical types but when we have delved into the Peraltas it appears that logic flies right out the window in favor of enthusiastic belief.

It is an enticing, exciting tale, that Peralta legend, with brave latter-day Conquistadors striking into the heart of hostile Indian country and discovering not one rich gold mine but a whole passel of them, then being suddenly attacked and only a single survivor escapes to tell the tale; over 100 years later four stone maps are found and only require that someone figure them out to have the map laid out to all of the riches hidden away by the Indians. Romantic, yes, exciting, yes, but ill-supported by evidence. There are far better tales as far as being backed up by verifiable documents, living descendants etc and far better clues or leads to pursue than the stone maps. Just compare the whole Peralta saga with the tales of Jacob Waltz for an eye opener - with Waltz we don't have a whole group of lost mines but one, with Waltz we don't have no evidence of any kind of gold ever produced, in fact we can track quite a few of his shipments and sales, and even a piece of the ore still existing (the match box) and I could go right on down the list, but again remember Waltz never made any maps - he never had any need of them to find his way back to his mine; and even when he was trying to tell his friends how to get there, he still didn't draw up any maps. The Peralta legends are soooo enticing, so alluring yet we are forced to accept a lot on faith and have to make some rather illogical leaps of logic to make the story fit with what "evidence" we do have. I would love to see someone find one of those lost Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions, then I could easily accept the whole saga lock, stock and barrel but until then is it worth your time, the most precious thing a human being possesses? I can almost hear Barry Storm chuckling in his grave.

Thanks for your time, sorry for "butting in" after bowing out, just wanted to reply to the two points raised.
Oroblanco

Did you really read what I posted? here it is again:

Why couldn't the mapmaker have sat on some peak and drawn the maps, then transferred them to the stones?

How do you know they didn't have cartographer with them? If it was a large group, like the family history states, maybe they had a mapmaker with them.

I never said that the group that was massacred needed the stones! It's very possible that the stones were hidden there in case something happened to the group (like a massacre), so people after them could find the mines.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

hello again,
If you read my post you would know that I had read yours, for I included the same words - transferring the map onto stones. Does that strike you as logical, when they could simply roll up the map or fold it up and take it with them? Why bother with the stones at all?
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

hello again,
If you read my post you would know that I had read yours, for I included the same words - transferring the map onto stones. Does that strike you as logical, when they could simply roll up the map or fold it up and take it with them? Why bother with the stones at all?
Oroblanco

LIKE I SAID: in case of a massacre! They make a paper map on top of a mountain (with a view), take the paper map down and transfer it to the stones (I don't think paper would have held up very well buried underground), then place the stones in a spot before heading into the mountains that should have a monument showing it's location to the right people.

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

One of my sources of information, who had some unusual misfortunes befall him after making some information public some years ago, has asked me to post his personal feelings about Tom Kollenborn. This man is a well known person in the stones lore, but wishes to remain anonymous for now.

Hey Oro, if you read towards the end of this, you may get a new view of Tom K's feelings about the stones.

Let me say first, that I don't know the man personally, but I have not heard anything bad about him. So, if you have a problem with Mr. Kollenborn, this is not my opinion. I am simply passing on a sentiment from another person who obviously thinks the world of him (I wish I had somebody to take my back like this)!

"Tom Kollenborn has a gentle nature, which is a prerequisite for working with children like he has all of his life as a Scout Leader and Educator in the public school system. I have known him for nearly 20 years and never known him to encourage or support any kind of controversy between two individuals or groups of people. Tom will in fact go out of his way to avoid becoming involved in controversy of any kind himself, or strive to bring it to a peaceful conclusion between others if he can. In the case of the stone maps, we are talking about a very controversial subject right out of the gate. My first impressions about the stone maps were pretty much influenced by Tom in a discussion I had with him about them back around 1990. I had no personal opinion about them at the time and Tom felt free to discuss what he knew about them openly without fear of a controversy erupting from anything he said. We spent about 20 minutes discussing all the positive aspects in favor of their validity as far as pertaining to something of value in the Superstitions or anywhere else. Then we spent a fairly equal amount of time discussing the negative aspects in favor of the idea that they were fakes. Tom can make a very respectable case for either side of that discussion, and I came away from it without any idea of what his personal opinions about the validity of the maps were. If he knows he is speaking to a disbeliever, I can easily imagine him giving them his 20-minute version of the negative aspects of the validity of them, without presenting any of the positive aspects he is aware of, and avoiding the possibility of a disagreement with them. On the other hand if he knows he is speaking to a believer in the validity of them, It is just as easy for me to imagine that he would give them his 20-minute version of the positive aspects while avoiding the mention of any of the negative aspects. At this late Date, Tom is very familiar with my opinions on the subject, and even tho he may have in his possession enough evidence to blow all of my opinions and beliefs clear out of the water, it would not be in his nature to do so. Tom places a high value on Friendship and would not jeopardize his friendship with anyone over a personal opinion on anything. I do not doubt that your friend had a discussion with Tom about the stone maps and came away with the impression that Tom is a nonbeliever in the validity of them based solely on his comments about the negative aspects and no comments about the positive aspects, but I would hesitate to form a definite conclusion of what Tom’s opinions are about the stone maps based on that one conversation with that one individual."

So, my friend, I hope this satisfies your request.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,
Seems I am drawn back into this despite my efforts. Let me start off by saying there is no way I am going to convince you the Peralta stones are fakes, I am well aware of this fact. However, that said, it is only out of respect and common courtesy that I should make some reply to your posts. Yes I am still reading them, the whole subject is and has been fascinating - when I said I was dropping out with little or nothing to add, I did say I would follow the thread out of my own curiosity.

Back to the logic of why stone maps instead of leather, paper or wood. In case of a massacre? Then at what point were they made? Before the troop of fifty or sixty men marched into the mountains, or after? See what I mean? If they knew of the mines before they headed in, then there is no need of planting a set of stone maps; if they did not know of the mines, they would have planted the stone maps AFTER leaving the mountains, which seems very unlikely since they were massacred according to the story; no matter - if they DID make the maps in case of a massacre, who buried them? Pedro Peralta? Why wouldn't he have told his descendants and/or intimate friends about them or made some attempt to go dig them up? I just don't get this - if the mines were just discovered which is why we don't find huge tailings piles (which Indians would not likely go to great efforts to hide, read the account of how the Apaches concealed the Jabonero mine for comparison) then with their first relatively small shipment of ore, that is to say, what would fit in the packs of the burros and mules they had brought along, then the convoy was attacked and massacred - so who would have been sticking around long enough to be bothered with transferring a map from paper or leather onto stone, then burying it, at a point where there was no large landmark but by great turn of Lady Luck happened to be right alongside where a major highway would be built years in the future? Please explain a scenario of how the mines were found and worked, the stone maps were made and buried, and propose someone as the maker?

Now Gollum, you post a letter from an anonymous person who is stating their opinion of what Tom K would believe concerning the Peralta stones. Is this supposed to convince me that Tom K privately believes they are genuine but allows public reading of a statement totally in opposition to this, (on a website) which carries his name? Mike, are you sure that emotions are not involved in your personal view of the validity of the Peralta stones, fence-sitting or no? I have read many of the posts on the other forum and it sure looks like there are fairly deep emotions involved in the beliefs, on both sides of the issue. It is difficult NOT to become emotionally involved in a belief when we reach strong levels of conviction; in fact it would be odd NOT to. The problem is that once personal emotions begin to carry weight, that weight starts to find its way into measuring logic and testimonies, and colors our conclusions. Even when a person is un-willing to openly state a belief or disbelief, those inner emotions which are tilting our views can show through. I will admit that my doubts are probably coloring my perception of the evidence(s) presented.

This debate of the validity of the Peralta stones is not really going to settle the issue is it?
Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

 

[Oroblanco]

I didn't check that other forum tonight. Too busy irritating nice folks on T-net!
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

The person who requested the Tom K post is FAR from unknown. His identity is just unknown regarding this post, and he wishes it to stay that way for now.

Oro,

You act like it had to be one or the other. Not so. If Indians were a fear, then it would be natural to make some sort of map to their mine/mines that could be hidden on site, in case anything happened to them. After all, when Spain owned Apacheria, it was required to monument and map all mining operations for the same reasons (so if anythng happened to the original expedition, somebody could follow and take up where they left off before being killed).

With that many people in the mining party, why couldn't they have sent a cartographer with a few men to make maps and the stones?

Remember the thing about monumenting and marking that I typed for you before! Those rules were in effect until about 1810 or 1820. ANY mining engineer or prospector would have remembered all that, because it was in their lifetime!

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sheehs whqt a bunch of igernent buggers!

Thank an accidentally foiled plot of Reaves for the stones. He is the "only" one with any motive for having a bunch of carved stones appear out of a trackless section of the area near the Superstitions. Unfortunately his timing of the findings was too far off, i.e, they were not recovered by his agent in time for furthering his land claim based upon further proof of a Peralta presence there. In simple fact, he never could find them again, so they remained buried until Tomulson arrived on the scene.

If you bury a batch of stone maps to a mine(s) in an area with no distinguishing marks, you don need no stinkin coded maps on them since they are out of sight of any except to the intended recoverer. The odds of a casual finder encountering them are even more Astronomical than that of Gallum giving me $30,000 US to open up the Tayopa deposits.

If you bury coded maps that are in 4 parts, why all together? This supposedly makes it easier to break the code, and if they aren't coded it reeks of stupidity. Four large stones are far easier to find than four scattered stones, unless, you wish to increase that possibility greatly, a la REAVES.

synopsis, er, well something like that : Nothing to do with any stinkin mines, only to bolster Reaves fraudulent land claim. He is the only one in the group of suspects that actually would gain by their being found. He made, or had made, the stone map with a technique more in line with his time period, than the Peraltas. He then sent his trusty idiot out to bury them near the Superstitions to be casually and conveniently found a little later. Unfortunately his idiot buried them in a markless area, so he was never able to recover them.

I have it from the horses mouth, a brand new OIJI board. backed by a set of tarot cards, and dried chicken bones, besides, I am a genius DD. snicker

Till Eulenspiegle de La Mancha

smooch gallum

 

[Oroblanco]

Well here I go again, playing Mr Skeptic (if you read some of the other threads you will see this is not my usual stance, just where Peraltas are concerned).

Okay, the maps were not made either BEFORE the massacre victims were killed or AFTER the massacre victims were killed; (Yes that is what I was claiming, they had to be made either before the massacre or after) you have not explained a scenario in which they were created. It is quite possible that the legendary expedition could have taken along a trained cartographer; however I have never seen any such suggestion made prior to your post here. Again I have to ask that question which just does not make sense to me, why bother with stone maps at all? So they could not be destroyed, that seems to be your suggested reasoning - then why were they buried? To hide them from Apaches or other hostile Indios? Then what good were the stone maps to the very makers of them?

You have brought up the Spanish law on marking mining claims with monuments - yet where are the monuments to these legendary Peralta mines in the Superstitions? If you know of monuments that were made by Peraltas in the Superstitions, then it should be a VERY EASY task to locate the vein(s). Spanish "rule" of Apacheria was very tenuous at best, it is difficult to imagine any Spaniard deciding to enter Apacheria to prospect for gold during this period we are talking about (1847) if you read the Mexican archives (some are online in fact) the state of Sonora was very much in a condition of withering and dying, with dozens of rancherias being utterly abandoned (permanently) due to Apache and Yavapai attacks (Mexico, like US forces later, usually failed to separate these two closely allied tribes) as well as numerous mines, Reals and many missions (smaller ones) as well also abandoned to the enemy. The Army garrisons at the presidios were chronically under-strength, and you will find little record of ANY prospecting going on in the face of continuing, highly successful Apache assaults. It would take brave men indeed to decide to walk up into the known hostile area and go prospecting - I would think that a party of 50-60 would be considered too weak to even attempt it. The Mexican army generally sent out punitive expeditions with strength of 120-200 and more to have any chance of success and security in numbers.

If you have not read the histories of the late Mexican period, I suggest you do; it is fascinating reading and if you can't find any of it online I do have links to them somewhere (will take a while to locate, using Internet Explorer right now but have most all of my saved links in a saved Netscape file) and post it here. Even though there is no mention of any Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions, you can read their fear and desperation in the un-ending war with the Apaches. Some Mexican authorities even advocated abandoning upper Sonora entirely, and the government apparently seriously considered it.

I would like to see your own personal description of just how the Peraltas first discovered, then mined, made up stone maps, and were massacred leaving a single survivor posted. Perhaps you can tell their story in a way which will make more sense to me than the simple explanation that it just never happened and the stones a fraud.

Greetings Tropical Tramp!
Your logic seems to make strong sense to me, though only on the identity of the suspect for having made the maps do we appear to differ very much. I will grant that it is possible that Reavis could have created the maps to bolster his land grant fraud; he was apparently a fairly good forger so ought to be able to create stone maps. With him as the forger, we may have an explanation for the strange spelling too. However then we must ask, why didn't he just dig them up and make open boast of having found "proof" of his claims? He had no qualms about producing all sorts of phoney documents then proclaiming to the courts that these are the genuine articles, so why NOT the stone "maps"? Perhaps for several reasons - the first being that there is no trace of any legend of Peralta lost gold mines in the Superstitions when he was perpetrating his land grant fraud? Since we have NO record extant of any lost Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions in the 1840s, 1850s, 1860s, 1870s in fact not until AFTER the death of Jacob Waltz does any such story appear anywhere!

(Remember Reavis made his claim in 1882-3, Waltz died October 25, 1891 and the first mention of any Peralta legendary mines is written after this - show me any direct mention of the Peralta lost mines in the Superstitions prior to 1882 and I can accept Reavis as a strong suspect. Show me any direct record of the Peralta stones prior to 1949 and I can dismiss Barry Storm as the leading suspect. Here is an extract of an article on Reavis, showing his willingness to do most anything to bolster his claims
He spent the early 1890s collecting every bit of evidence that could possibly help him. No tactic was beneath him: in California, he hired four men to perjure themselves in the upcoming case by claiming knowledge of Carmelita and her fictional noble father from years earlier

The earliest mention of legendary Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions as far as I am able to find is P.C. Bicknell's article published in 1895; by this time Reavis was in deep trouble and on June 3, 1895, the Court met in Santa Fe, New Mexico to hear the case of James Addison Peralta-Reavis, Dona Sofia Loreta Micaela Reavis and Clinton F. Farrell (a Reavis financier who never appeared) vs. the United States of America. )

Fairly strong evidence that Reavis COULD not have made the maps, since he COULD not have even known of the whole Peralta-lost mines legend. Then too it does not fit with the known behavior of Reavis to hold back some "evidence" which might support his grant claim no matter how false he knew it to be. He was not above paying others to lie and he would swear to it, it would have been a simple step to pay someone to go dig up the fake stones and proclaim it to the public. It is a matter of record that we have NO records of these Peralta stone "maps" prior to their discovery in 1949, and this just "happens" to be right in the heyday of one of the greatest Superstition lost mine legend embellishers that ever lived - one Barry Storm! Would you dismiss this as just coincidence? I would NOT put the making of fake stone "maps" past Barry whatsoever, he was very much a lost mine promoter and had NO qualms about adding things to old reports and apparently even making up stories to link in with his "version". If you can find a tape or DVD just watch the old movie "Lust for Gold" with Glenn Ford as the Dutchman - (you probably have already seen this) it is Barry Storm through and through, even has Barry as the "Hero" fighting and killing a Sheriff's deputy in the closing parts of the movie. Great Hollywood stuff, perhaps, good clues for making expeditions into the Superstitions - NO! I still point to Barry as the strongest suspect for having made those stones, if you prefer Reavis as leading suspect then I would like to know
A) Why he never produced them to bolster his claims?
B) Why he made no mention of them anywhere?
C) How and when Reavis learned of Peralta lost gold mines in the Superstitions, since we only have any such report dating AFTER the death of Waltz?
D)Know of any other examples where Reavis created any kind of false STONE documents?

NOT wishing to be the 'devil's advocate' DEFENDING Reavis here, but we may be tagging him with something he could not even have KNOWN of. Besides, I found Barry Storm named as the forger specifically in my cup of tea leaves, now you know there is no stronger proof than that!!! I sure can't say it is impossible that Reavis to have created them, just seems less likely than a much more modern origin.


Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hey Roy,

Okay, the maps were not made either BEFORE the massacre victims were killed or AFTER the massacre victims were killed; (Yes that is what I was claiming)

Please read that statement. How can you say that the stones were not made before the massacre victimes were killed? Do you know that for sure?

OK (I hate to do this), but I will tell you a fictitious story (loosely) based on Peralta Family History and US History, that will explain the possibility of the stone maps' authenticity:

" It is not known for how many years the Peraltas had the mines in the Supers. It is just part of the family history. As you state, Sonora is in ruins after the 1810 Revolution. The Mexican Government is taxing the heck out of all the landowners to pay for the Army. Anything that people in Sonora can keep under the table, they do.

As any mining done in Mexico is being taxed to death, and any Mexicans have heard the reports as old as 1540, saying that there is much gold and silver just waiting to be picked up. All they have to do is just go North of the Gila!

Let's say that they had the mines as of 1845. This is also the time of the Mexican-American War. Any Mexicans that owned land or legal (filed) mining claims in the disputed areas, must have been very nervous. They had no way to know what would happen if America won the war. There was a very good chance that if their property was above board and legal, that Americans might just take it from them (We did have a habit of just taking things from people we beat in wars).

American Indians saw the craziness that was going on, and took advantage of it. They were attacking everywhere in the SouthWestern United States and Northern Mexico. It is possible that, while working their mines in the Fall, they began to see that Indian attacks on the rise, combined with the uncertainty of their post-war status, and the heavy taxation of all declared income back in Mexico, that they should both keep the mines a secret, and in case something were to happen to them, while working the mines, they should leave something that would outlive them to show the location of their mines in the area, to people who would come after, and know what to look for.

So, in 1847, during the fall mining season, they brought with them a cartographer (mapmaker), to make paper and stone maps. The stone maps would be buried in a spot designated by something, easy enough for another party to find. While the miners were doing there thing, the cartographer would have had a small party. They would have found a good vantage point (mountain top), climbed to the top, and drawn maps based on what they saw. After climbing down, they transferred the maps to stone tablets, and buried the stone tablets in a place outside the Superstition Mountains. This burial place would have been noted on the parchment/paper maps. Those maps would be taken to Mexico, and kept a secret from all but the immediate Peralta Family.

Unfortunately, that was the year the mining party was massacred by the Apache, and like their clothes, and personal effects (that weren't taken by the Apache), they laid on Massacre Field and rotted away. This would have left the stone's existence a complete secret."

There you go Oro. By combining parts of known history (US and Mexican), Peralta Family History, and some imagination (like you asked for), I have given you a good possible story of the making of the stone maps.

That is, unless they were made for Reavis! If Storm would have made them, that would have been in the 1940s. Not much time for the DON Stone to get worn like it is, and roots to have grown into them (as reported).

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

OH! And about the monuments:

There are some monuments still standing in and around the Supers. Many of the better known monuments were destroyed by previous Dutch Hunters to give them an "edge". Saguaro that held clues were cut down, carvings were altered or destroyed, stone monuments were pulled down.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again Mike and everyone,
Thank you for the proposed scenario. That at least makes some level of sense, even if I do not agree with the logic involved.

I pointed out my problem with Reavis being the creator - he could not have known of the tales of Peraltas in the Superstitions with lost gold mines; in fact, based on his known behavior he would probably have tried like heck to SELL the mines as HIS. We cannot trace Peraltas (solidly) as being in the Superstitions at all, in fact the earliest instance I am aware of the Peralta legend is in Bicknells article of 1895 - by which time Reavis was in prison. That could be an argument in favor of their being genuine. However we still have a good suspect remaining, who could have CREATED the stones prior to 1949 and buried them - it does not take too long to get some tiny hair rootlets growing into them and the degree of "weathering" we see on these Peralta stones.

Now not to poke holes in your scenario, but why is it that Pedro Peralta would not know of the stone maps? He was after all a Peralta, not a hired man or friendly Indian right? Why would the Peraltas go off to the La Paz district, then up to the Bradshaws if they already knew of secret rich gold mines closer to home in the Superstitions? Would the Peraltas have kept the stone maps a secret from Pedro?

It is a fascinating story, and fills a treasure hunter with hope since after all there are so many of these rich lost Peralta mines. I wish there was more evidence to prove some level of Peraltas mining in the Superstitions - these supposed "monuments" of chopped Saguaros and stones etc are not exactly solid proof of the presence of mines - trails yes, mines...? Where are the tailings piles, records of gold sold or shipped? Mexicans kept surprisingly good records, and the taxes on mines were not so onerous as to shut down mines. Fear of Americans? Perhaps - the report of the first American officer to visit Tumacacori mission mentioned what happened when his small force of troops approached an operating mine near the mission - the men fled into a sort of "fort" as if the Americans were a party of Apache warriors, while the mine owner came out to talk to the American officer. He said the owner went on about how poor the mine was, barely paying his expenses, but then tried to get the officer to buy silver for $1 American per ounce. So they may have felt some fear or trepidation at the Americans arrival, but certainly not too much and some saw the Americans as possible "deliverers" from the Apache menace.

Oroblanco