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Oroblanco
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- Jan 21, 2005
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Greetings Gollum, Tropical Tramp and everyone,
Gollum wrote:
Now Mike, did you not read my earlier post? I already did quote the spot - it is on the page that I already posted the link to, maybe this will jog your memory:
You quote Bob Corbin telling how the FBI lab tested the stones, and note carefully what even Bob said
"He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred
years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps."
You wrote "The FBI Tests came back that the inscriptions were AT LEAST 100 years old."
They BELIEVED the stones were at least 100 years old, but you seem to have made that jump from A to B to Z again when we ought to have stopped on B, taking a statement that they believed the age to the absolute statement "..WERE at least 100 years old". Really now Mike, you have a logical mind (if a bit optimistic) does that sound like absolute proof to you, or yet another OPINION being stated? Bob is welcome to believe in the stone "maps" and it does not diminish my view of him, yet they continue to strike me as just too unlikely, too far fetched, too much too good to be true.
You mentioned earlier how you were the only one providing "proofs" to prove the stones were valid - well just how would you prove something false, something that doesn't exist? It is like trying to prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist, well there are all kinds of "proof" that he is very real, even a medeival saint by the name of Nicholas, yet it just isn't real. I asked you earlier but you did not answer the question but why on earth would the Peraltas, assuming they had one or a whole group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions, have bothered to carve mysterious maps into four STONES, rather than on a leather that could be readily rolled up and carried, or paper, or wood, etc the idea of portable STONE maps of this size are bordering on the ridiculous. Does this make them impossible, NO but it sure makes them UNLIKELY. You mentioned the Mexican revolution against the Spanish for a reason why they would not have denounced the claims in the Superstitions, yet look at the timeline -the revolution was pretty well OVER by 1847, since it ended in 1821. In fact during the revolution the Peraltas were actively working a silver mine, so show no real fear of the tax but instead show that they were law abiding citizens; not furtive, secretive people who had a record of sneaking into the wilds and refusing to file legal claims on the mineral finds so as to avoid paying the taxes etc. Does that mean it is impossible the group of Peralta mines in the Superstitions could have existed, no, but it does make it unlikely based on known behavior of known Peraltas.
Now you ask if Pimas would have been mining? Have you been researching southwest history, and not have made note of how many times Pimas, Papagos, Navajos etc were mining? Pimas were one of the large tribes which were assimilated to a degree by the Spanish and later Mexicans, were working cattle and sheep ranches, working MINES too. They were what you might call "civilized" or perhaps better "westernized". You must also know that other tribes in the southwest had and operated their OWN mines, including Mayos,Opatas, and others. As to why a skeleton might have been fully clothed - that only shows that the killers did not strip that particular body. Perhaps that person put up a better fight or was a known enemy so earned some respect to them. Then too, remember what the normal dress WAS for a Pima Indian - they were not like their wild cousins running around in the wilds dressed in nothing but a breechclout and moccasins, but wore full clothing very similar to Europeans. In fact take a look at old photos of Apaches, Pimas, and other tribes and you will see they were not quite like the wild three-quarters-naked Indians we see in the old Hollywood westerns but look almost like Mexicans, right down to the wearing of Sombreros for some.
You want to keep returning to Edwards story, yet seem to dismiss out of hand the very words of it - I will point out the section again, read it out loud and see how that sounds to you - if that makes it seem like the skeletons were in fact Peraltas or a group of unlucky Pimas:
"Trooper Green took the remains to be those of Pima Indians who had died at the hands of their hereditary enemy, the Apache. The lieutenant agreed with Green, especially as there were no large group of Anglos reported missing or unaccounted for in the territory."
Now does THAT sound like it must be a group of Peraltas, coming or going to a group of rich gold mines, much less mines in the Superstitions? You choose to take the opinion (yes OPINION) of Edwards over that of Green and the un-named lieutenant, plus the fact that no large group of missing Anglos had been reported in the area. You might choose Edwards opinion over that of Trooper Green since Edwards was a sergeant, but the other opinion was that of a person who outranked Edwards. Shouldn't that tilt the balance for you, the fact that a higher ranking officer was of the opinion the remains were Pimas, rather than Europeans, if not perhaps the fact that a 'democratic' method of deciding we can add up the 'votes' and find that of the three persons who were on the spot looking at the remains, TWO out of THREE were of the opinion that the remains were Pimas. We have to work with opinions in this story because that is all we have to work with. Why do you dismiss the views of Trooper Green and the Lieutenant in favor of Edwards? I don't get that logic on your part. I read the same report and it certainly seems to be solid evidence AGAINST the massacre victims being a group of Mexicans under Peraltas, let alone that the group was coming or going to a group of secret gold mines located IN the Superstitions.
Now one person can sure be right while a majority of others are in disagreement, we need only look at Schliemann and mythical Troy to find an extreme example of this, and it is reassuring to all of us that simply because your idea is in opposition to others does not mean you are wrong. This is the case here too - those stones could be maps to secret lost gold mines in the Superstitions that belonged to Peraltas, it is not possible (without a confession) to PROVE that they are not - however as optimistic as I try to be with tales of lost mines and buried treasures, I also try to keep at least one foot on the ground and have to ask if it has the "ring of truth" to any tale, any bit of evidence. In the case of these so-called Peralta stone "maps" the whole deal just does not "ring true" FOR ME. I do put some credence in the opinions of experts, but as I said earlier, opinions of experts can be wrong, can be biased; they are after all HUMAN BEINGS and we human beings are all-too-full of hidden faults, hidden bias, hidden agendas that are not readily apparent on the surface. When we are examining such a controversial artifact as these stone maps, it would be tough to find an expert who holds absolutely NO bias towards them, either pro or con, especially when we are talking abou experts who ARE ALSO HUNTING THE LOST DUTCHMAN and/or Peralta mines. I trust that you are also taking this fact into account? You must be well aware of the many fakes in the world of stone inscriptions! Some are even better and more convincing than these Peralta stones, like the King Solomon Tablet, which did not actually name Solomon but king Hezekiah and managed to fool some of the best experts in the field of Biblical archaeology, yet were eventually PROVEN to be fakes. Let me ask you yet another hypothetical question, if you come down as solidly believing this strange group of stones to be real ( I note that you have carefully avoided doing that in exact words) and go on the public record saying so, which Bob Corbin has done, how will you feel if it is later proven that they are false? If that will bother you a great deal to be 'made a public fool' by a good fraud, then you are wise to keep saying that you are not totally convinced they are genuine. Based on your arguments in your posts, you show a tendency to dismiss anything which could cast doubt (like the statement of Father Polzer, based solely on the fact that someone else has a grudge against him and that he is a Jesuit? Doesn't that strike you as being strongly BIASED? Jesuit fathers are educated men, not some dimwit who didn't finish eighth grade, and are men of God - that does not make them angels they are still human beings. More on this point below.) I will go out on a limb here, and it won't bother me a whit to be made a fool if proven wrong (heck like I said, I have my own tinfoil hat and have published some far-fetched theories) and state my own conclusions on the validity of these stones in a public venue - you are sure free to record this so as to be able to rub my nose in it if or when the stones are proven real:
I am convinced, based on all the evidence I have seen and compared with the probabilities of each part of the story which must go along with them, that the so-called Peralta stone maps are frauds, created with the intention of fooling people.
signed Roy A. Decker 9-10-2006
In fact the look of the stones strike me as even a bit amateurish. You are free to quote my statement above
This does not automatically make them frauds, and it is possible they are real. No matter how much we may debate these stones, you have already stated that only absolute tests proving the stones were NOT the right AGE would convince you that the stones were frauds, well not to raise yet another issue here but you do realize that even if the stones could be precisely dated to the year inscribed on them (impossible with current technology and science, unless they had been found in situ with other items which could be carbon-dated, and unfortunately carbon dating while excellent is also not perfect and can only give a RANGE of years, though a find of pottery and coins plus human remains right alongside the stones would have helped immensely) even that would NOT absolutely guarantee that the stones are genuine, for the making of fakes has a very long history. So since you have stated that you cannot be swayed except by tests which are not possible for either of us to do (I do not have the stones in my possession) why are we continuing? Are you trying to sway little old ME to believe in the validity of these stones, if so I have already posted that it will take the actual finding of one of those legendary mines AND finding one (or more) THROUGH THE USE OF THE MAPS. I can also assure you that MY opinion carries little weight around here, not enough to justify your spending many hours to convince me. I will sure take your word for it, if for instance YOU were to go up into the Superstitions and used the maps (or rather photos of them) to find one of those legendary mines, if you say you used the maps to find it I will believe you. I will need to see some solid evidence of the mine, you don't have to take me to the spot (being wilderness means it is closed to mineral entry so none of us can file a mining claim on it, but you CAN go in with no motorized equipment and hand work out some ore) - however for us to continue to debate these stones seems rather pointless since both of us have already expressed that it will take more evidence to prove the case for either of us. Are we debating this for the sake of the other readers entertainment? If so, I will be happy to oblige, but I cannot provide absolute evidence that they are frauds - we are forced to make our own individual opinions as to whether they are genuine or not, almost like a religious faith issue, and in this sort of case where it cannot be proven I choose to rely on my own logic as a yardstick of whether a thing or tale has a ring of truth. If it seems illogical to me, I have to conclude the item or tale is most likely false, if it seems logical then I swing the other way to most likely true. It is not possible to prove these things beyond all doubt either way with the means at our disposal here.
You dismissed the view of Father Polzer based on the fact that he was a Jesuit and someone on Desert USA cast aspersions on him. You pointed out that the Jesuits still believe they own treasures in the Americas. How exactly are the Jesuits tied in to the legend of Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions in ANY way? I have never found any tie-in to the Jesuits with ANY mines in the Superstitions, so why are you making the connection between a Jesuit bias (for the greed of treasures) towards legendary mines which they were never associated with? That looks like a personal bias on your part, now heck we are all human beings and all have personal biases, but when trying to establish the facts on a questionable, controversial artifact, we ought to TRY to control those biases. It also looks like you have taken the leap from A to B to Z in connecting the Jesuits to the legendary Peralta lost gold mines in the Superstitions. Now being an optimist is a good thing, optimists tend to try to see the good in everything, while pessimists have the advantage of never being disappointed, but when researching the facts regarding lost mines and buried treasures we ought to try to remain as realists; stick to what can be factually established for at least the most part - sometimes we are forced to make a leap of faith to make connections when circumstantial evidence is all we have, but when that is all we have it is usually safer to NOT make the leap of faith and look in another direction. A body can expend an inordinate amount of time on false leads, and has led to more than one treasure hunter quitting the hobby forever. Perhaps you are optimist enough NOT to quit despite any such waste of time, but I would sooner that you don't waste your time on such a questionable set of artifacts - you have shown ability as a researcher, I am sure you could come up with far more conclusive proofs in OTHER areas if you would abandon the stone "maps" idea. However this is your choice to make, I just see you in some ways a kindred spirit and a friend; I would be remiss if I did not at least try to convince you to expend your talents pursuing better, less controversial evidences.
Joseph, my apologies for dragging you into this debate as we are not able to prove the case either true or false. It has been long and interesting, and those who lean toward believing the stones are genuine probably should do more research into them. It may seem unworthy of a treasure hunter to not wish to pursue further research into items or tales that he or she has concluded are fraudulent, but we all have only a limited amount of time to spend in our pursuits, so can justify NOT spending more time on what appear to be frauds because we have to spend our research time wisely, as wisely as possible so as to make our field work that much more informed and increase our chances of success. If you have the time to spare Mike and others who believe in the Peralta stones, and don't mind expending your limited amount of research time on them when it is possible (you must admit it is possible they are frauds) they COULD be frauds, more power to you! I hope you are able to get up in the hills there and find one or more of those mines, and not hold me as your "enemy" because I failed to believe in them - maybe after you have already mined out enough gold to satisfy Croesus, you could let me go in and re-work the tailings - I will have the energy from having eaten that boiled leather hat stew with the extra protein of a side dish of crow. I won't insist that you eat your hat or the side dish of crow if the stones are proven false, crow is pretty nasty tasting and a leather hat that has been soaked in sweat for years is not exactly appetizing!
Well off to browse the other postings, I hope you all have a great day!
Oroblanco
"The world is more like it is now, than it ever has before." --D.D. Eisenhower
Gollum wrote:
Now Mike, did you not read my earlier post? I already did quote the spot - it is on the page that I already posted the link to, maybe this will jog your memory:
Now the site is not written as if it is a verbal quote out of the mouth of Tom K. but does certainly say a strong view on the veracity of the stones and DOES carry Tom K's name near the top of the page as one of the persons responsible for the content. If the content was in opposition to his views, it seems that he would have changed the text, he certainly had that within his power. Like I said before, you can sure write to Tom privately and perhaps he does not agree (in private) with what he put on this web site.
You quote Bob Corbin telling how the FBI lab tested the stones, and note carefully what even Bob said
"He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred
years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps."
You wrote "The FBI Tests came back that the inscriptions were AT LEAST 100 years old."
They BELIEVED the stones were at least 100 years old, but you seem to have made that jump from A to B to Z again when we ought to have stopped on B, taking a statement that they believed the age to the absolute statement "..WERE at least 100 years old". Really now Mike, you have a logical mind (if a bit optimistic) does that sound like absolute proof to you, or yet another OPINION being stated? Bob is welcome to believe in the stone "maps" and it does not diminish my view of him, yet they continue to strike me as just too unlikely, too far fetched, too much too good to be true.
You mentioned earlier how you were the only one providing "proofs" to prove the stones were valid - well just how would you prove something false, something that doesn't exist? It is like trying to prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist, well there are all kinds of "proof" that he is very real, even a medeival saint by the name of Nicholas, yet it just isn't real. I asked you earlier but you did not answer the question but why on earth would the Peraltas, assuming they had one or a whole group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions, have bothered to carve mysterious maps into four STONES, rather than on a leather that could be readily rolled up and carried, or paper, or wood, etc the idea of portable STONE maps of this size are bordering on the ridiculous. Does this make them impossible, NO but it sure makes them UNLIKELY. You mentioned the Mexican revolution against the Spanish for a reason why they would not have denounced the claims in the Superstitions, yet look at the timeline -the revolution was pretty well OVER by 1847, since it ended in 1821. In fact during the revolution the Peraltas were actively working a silver mine, so show no real fear of the tax but instead show that they were law abiding citizens; not furtive, secretive people who had a record of sneaking into the wilds and refusing to file legal claims on the mineral finds so as to avoid paying the taxes etc. Does that mean it is impossible the group of Peralta mines in the Superstitions could have existed, no, but it does make it unlikely based on known behavior of known Peraltas.
Now you ask if Pimas would have been mining? Have you been researching southwest history, and not have made note of how many times Pimas, Papagos, Navajos etc were mining? Pimas were one of the large tribes which were assimilated to a degree by the Spanish and later Mexicans, were working cattle and sheep ranches, working MINES too. They were what you might call "civilized" or perhaps better "westernized". You must also know that other tribes in the southwest had and operated their OWN mines, including Mayos,Opatas, and others. As to why a skeleton might have been fully clothed - that only shows that the killers did not strip that particular body. Perhaps that person put up a better fight or was a known enemy so earned some respect to them. Then too, remember what the normal dress WAS for a Pima Indian - they were not like their wild cousins running around in the wilds dressed in nothing but a breechclout and moccasins, but wore full clothing very similar to Europeans. In fact take a look at old photos of Apaches, Pimas, and other tribes and you will see they were not quite like the wild three-quarters-naked Indians we see in the old Hollywood westerns but look almost like Mexicans, right down to the wearing of Sombreros for some.
You want to keep returning to Edwards story, yet seem to dismiss out of hand the very words of it - I will point out the section again, read it out loud and see how that sounds to you - if that makes it seem like the skeletons were in fact Peraltas or a group of unlucky Pimas:
"Trooper Green took the remains to be those of Pima Indians who had died at the hands of their hereditary enemy, the Apache. The lieutenant agreed with Green, especially as there were no large group of Anglos reported missing or unaccounted for in the territory."
Now does THAT sound like it must be a group of Peraltas, coming or going to a group of rich gold mines, much less mines in the Superstitions? You choose to take the opinion (yes OPINION) of Edwards over that of Green and the un-named lieutenant, plus the fact that no large group of missing Anglos had been reported in the area. You might choose Edwards opinion over that of Trooper Green since Edwards was a sergeant, but the other opinion was that of a person who outranked Edwards. Shouldn't that tilt the balance for you, the fact that a higher ranking officer was of the opinion the remains were Pimas, rather than Europeans, if not perhaps the fact that a 'democratic' method of deciding we can add up the 'votes' and find that of the three persons who were on the spot looking at the remains, TWO out of THREE were of the opinion that the remains were Pimas. We have to work with opinions in this story because that is all we have to work with. Why do you dismiss the views of Trooper Green and the Lieutenant in favor of Edwards? I don't get that logic on your part. I read the same report and it certainly seems to be solid evidence AGAINST the massacre victims being a group of Mexicans under Peraltas, let alone that the group was coming or going to a group of secret gold mines located IN the Superstitions.
Now one person can sure be right while a majority of others are in disagreement, we need only look at Schliemann and mythical Troy to find an extreme example of this, and it is reassuring to all of us that simply because your idea is in opposition to others does not mean you are wrong. This is the case here too - those stones could be maps to secret lost gold mines in the Superstitions that belonged to Peraltas, it is not possible (without a confession) to PROVE that they are not - however as optimistic as I try to be with tales of lost mines and buried treasures, I also try to keep at least one foot on the ground and have to ask if it has the "ring of truth" to any tale, any bit of evidence. In the case of these so-called Peralta stone "maps" the whole deal just does not "ring true" FOR ME. I do put some credence in the opinions of experts, but as I said earlier, opinions of experts can be wrong, can be biased; they are after all HUMAN BEINGS and we human beings are all-too-full of hidden faults, hidden bias, hidden agendas that are not readily apparent on the surface. When we are examining such a controversial artifact as these stone maps, it would be tough to find an expert who holds absolutely NO bias towards them, either pro or con, especially when we are talking abou experts who ARE ALSO HUNTING THE LOST DUTCHMAN and/or Peralta mines. I trust that you are also taking this fact into account? You must be well aware of the many fakes in the world of stone inscriptions! Some are even better and more convincing than these Peralta stones, like the King Solomon Tablet, which did not actually name Solomon but king Hezekiah and managed to fool some of the best experts in the field of Biblical archaeology, yet were eventually PROVEN to be fakes. Let me ask you yet another hypothetical question, if you come down as solidly believing this strange group of stones to be real ( I note that you have carefully avoided doing that in exact words) and go on the public record saying so, which Bob Corbin has done, how will you feel if it is later proven that they are false? If that will bother you a great deal to be 'made a public fool' by a good fraud, then you are wise to keep saying that you are not totally convinced they are genuine. Based on your arguments in your posts, you show a tendency to dismiss anything which could cast doubt (like the statement of Father Polzer, based solely on the fact that someone else has a grudge against him and that he is a Jesuit? Doesn't that strike you as being strongly BIASED? Jesuit fathers are educated men, not some dimwit who didn't finish eighth grade, and are men of God - that does not make them angels they are still human beings. More on this point below.) I will go out on a limb here, and it won't bother me a whit to be made a fool if proven wrong (heck like I said, I have my own tinfoil hat and have published some far-fetched theories) and state my own conclusions on the validity of these stones in a public venue - you are sure free to record this so as to be able to rub my nose in it if or when the stones are proven real:
I am convinced, based on all the evidence I have seen and compared with the probabilities of each part of the story which must go along with them, that the so-called Peralta stone maps are frauds, created with the intention of fooling people.
signed Roy A. Decker 9-10-2006
In fact the look of the stones strike me as even a bit amateurish. You are free to quote my statement above
This does not automatically make them frauds, and it is possible they are real. No matter how much we may debate these stones, you have already stated that only absolute tests proving the stones were NOT the right AGE would convince you that the stones were frauds, well not to raise yet another issue here but you do realize that even if the stones could be precisely dated to the year inscribed on them (impossible with current technology and science, unless they had been found in situ with other items which could be carbon-dated, and unfortunately carbon dating while excellent is also not perfect and can only give a RANGE of years, though a find of pottery and coins plus human remains right alongside the stones would have helped immensely) even that would NOT absolutely guarantee that the stones are genuine, for the making of fakes has a very long history. So since you have stated that you cannot be swayed except by tests which are not possible for either of us to do (I do not have the stones in my possession) why are we continuing? Are you trying to sway little old ME to believe in the validity of these stones, if so I have already posted that it will take the actual finding of one of those legendary mines AND finding one (or more) THROUGH THE USE OF THE MAPS. I can also assure you that MY opinion carries little weight around here, not enough to justify your spending many hours to convince me. I will sure take your word for it, if for instance YOU were to go up into the Superstitions and used the maps (or rather photos of them) to find one of those legendary mines, if you say you used the maps to find it I will believe you. I will need to see some solid evidence of the mine, you don't have to take me to the spot (being wilderness means it is closed to mineral entry so none of us can file a mining claim on it, but you CAN go in with no motorized equipment and hand work out some ore) - however for us to continue to debate these stones seems rather pointless since both of us have already expressed that it will take more evidence to prove the case for either of us. Are we debating this for the sake of the other readers entertainment? If so, I will be happy to oblige, but I cannot provide absolute evidence that they are frauds - we are forced to make our own individual opinions as to whether they are genuine or not, almost like a religious faith issue, and in this sort of case where it cannot be proven I choose to rely on my own logic as a yardstick of whether a thing or tale has a ring of truth. If it seems illogical to me, I have to conclude the item or tale is most likely false, if it seems logical then I swing the other way to most likely true. It is not possible to prove these things beyond all doubt either way with the means at our disposal here.
You dismissed the view of Father Polzer based on the fact that he was a Jesuit and someone on Desert USA cast aspersions on him. You pointed out that the Jesuits still believe they own treasures in the Americas. How exactly are the Jesuits tied in to the legend of Peralta gold mines in the Superstitions in ANY way? I have never found any tie-in to the Jesuits with ANY mines in the Superstitions, so why are you making the connection between a Jesuit bias (for the greed of treasures) towards legendary mines which they were never associated with? That looks like a personal bias on your part, now heck we are all human beings and all have personal biases, but when trying to establish the facts on a questionable, controversial artifact, we ought to TRY to control those biases. It also looks like you have taken the leap from A to B to Z in connecting the Jesuits to the legendary Peralta lost gold mines in the Superstitions. Now being an optimist is a good thing, optimists tend to try to see the good in everything, while pessimists have the advantage of never being disappointed, but when researching the facts regarding lost mines and buried treasures we ought to try to remain as realists; stick to what can be factually established for at least the most part - sometimes we are forced to make a leap of faith to make connections when circumstantial evidence is all we have, but when that is all we have it is usually safer to NOT make the leap of faith and look in another direction. A body can expend an inordinate amount of time on false leads, and has led to more than one treasure hunter quitting the hobby forever. Perhaps you are optimist enough NOT to quit despite any such waste of time, but I would sooner that you don't waste your time on such a questionable set of artifacts - you have shown ability as a researcher, I am sure you could come up with far more conclusive proofs in OTHER areas if you would abandon the stone "maps" idea. However this is your choice to make, I just see you in some ways a kindred spirit and a friend; I would be remiss if I did not at least try to convince you to expend your talents pursuing better, less controversial evidences.
Joseph, my apologies for dragging you into this debate as we are not able to prove the case either true or false. It has been long and interesting, and those who lean toward believing the stones are genuine probably should do more research into them. It may seem unworthy of a treasure hunter to not wish to pursue further research into items or tales that he or she has concluded are fraudulent, but we all have only a limited amount of time to spend in our pursuits, so can justify NOT spending more time on what appear to be frauds because we have to spend our research time wisely, as wisely as possible so as to make our field work that much more informed and increase our chances of success. If you have the time to spare Mike and others who believe in the Peralta stones, and don't mind expending your limited amount of research time on them when it is possible (you must admit it is possible they are frauds) they COULD be frauds, more power to you! I hope you are able to get up in the hills there and find one or more of those mines, and not hold me as your "enemy" because I failed to believe in them - maybe after you have already mined out enough gold to satisfy Croesus, you could let me go in and re-work the tailings - I will have the energy from having eaten that boiled leather hat stew with the extra protein of a side dish of crow. I won't insist that you eat your hat or the side dish of crow if the stones are proven false, crow is pretty nasty tasting and a leather hat that has been soaked in sweat for years is not exactly appetizing!
Well off to browse the other postings, I hope you all have a great day!
Oroblanco
"The world is more like it is now, than it ever has before." --D.D. Eisenhower
) So it may not seem a valid way of deciding which opinion was correct for you, but it is valid enough for myself. I would agree that the group killed in Massacre field were Pimas, perhaps with a European type among them as the more likely scenario. I may be a little kinky, but we won't go into that here - anyone got a chicken, hee hee!
![:-\](https://www.treasurenet.com/smilies/undecided.gif "Undecided :-\")
Anyway I would like to know if you are willing to do it or not?
