The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[gollum]

All I can say is, "I must be doing somethig right!" Here is a quote from another forum about my working out the Peralta Stones details:

Mike, Krf, Novice

You guys should be forewarned that you are all "treading on some very "HALLOWED" ground here and stepping on some VERY BIG toes.
some of the most outspoken non-believers in the stone maps, who are really some of the most hard core BELIEVERS, are getting burrs under their saddle because of some of the things you are digging up and posting in the open forum. the underground is really buzzing. as a courtesy you might consider taking the rest of your discussion to pms or private email. this fumble as it has been referred to is one that could turn the whole game around and some people are not pleased with that.

just a few words for the wise.

ward

Here is my reply:

As for Ward,

If you wish, I will PM you my home address, and you can distribute it to anybody who wants it.

I am a 43 year old 14 year Army Ranger Combat Veteran. I have fought communist rebels and drug cartel members all over Central and parts of South America. I have fought Muslim extermists in the Middle-East. I have fought Soviet and Cuban Special Forces in Grenada. If some freakin hillbilly wants to come looking for me, I only have one thing to say:"Bring it on!"

Best,

Mike


As Jose would say....hehehe

Best,

Mike

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[gollum]

And before you say it, I already know!

There is a great chance that this guy is full of $hit! Just wanting to add a little spice to the forum, but when somebody threatens me, I get giddy like a little girl! You have no idea! I have emailed and PMed everybody I know about this!

It made my day!

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

I have received a couple of PMs of concern about the threat.

Thanks and you know who you are, but I need to make sure everybody understands one thing;

THE THREATS DID NOT COME FROM TREASURENET!

They came from an individual on another forum dedicated to the Lost Dutchman Mine, and the Superstitions.

Thanks again-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello Gollum and everyone,
I hope you will turn in Ward for the thinly-veiled threat. (I found the threat on thelostdutchmangoldmine.com) It might just be BS like you said, but if it was meant as humor it came off NOT funny. People have been killed over what was perceived as knowledge of the LDM, and this type of whacko is the type who will shoot in the back.

I found the other forum (not a member there) and looked up the profile of Ward, (http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/pb/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=299) and he has NO information whatsoever other than he has put up 19 posts and joined on 25 Jun 2005 - now I also like to keep my privacy but not to the point that I make it impossible to get my name and address etc - he seems to like to toss around threats and is apparently too cowardly to post his real name on his profile page. Might very well be a whacko, dyed in the wool.

Now back to the biz-ness at hand. I have been to the Superstition mtn museum in Goldfield, which in my opinion is one of the neatest museums in the country, rivalled only by a tiny museum in Lewes Delaware that has the hull of a sunken treasure ship on display. Even the little ghost town of Goldfield is really neat and worth a few photos for posterity, all nicely restored with no television aerials showing on the rooftops. I did look at the stuff they had on display on the Peraltas (now this is a few years ago, may have more by now of course) and it was all interesting and neat too. You have presented an in-depth, well thought out argument in favor of the stones being genuine, despite not coming off that pointy fence quite yet, and I did not intend to imply that you had not used logic, you obviously have - only that we seem to have weighted the various likelihoods differently and see different possible answers and scenarios to explain the evidence and stories.

I am fairly sure that Mexican citizens did not lose their documented property at the conclusion of the Mexican-American war, and the US government has gone to some lengths to even approve and certify the land claims dating back to the days of Spanish rule (see the many land grant claims which were examined by the Federal courts, a majority were approved even when the lands had not been selected over a period of nearly 100 years, the Reavis-Peralta fraud was unusual) though I will have to check on it. I have read where un-documented mining claims were ruled invalid, somewhere, but I am not sure where it would take some time to hunt it up in the old court records. (A side note here but wouldn't it be great if they would put the old court records online?) I guess that it is a matter of personal choice - if I had discovered a group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions and a war was on-going, my personal choice would be to file on them as quickly as possible just in case my side (Mexico) were to lose at least I would have documented legal title, they could not have known that the Americans intended to seize all of their properties and this in fact did not occur; however another man might feel it a safer choice to keep it secret until the 'shootin' was over (there was very little actual shooting in Arizona during this war, in fact the Spanish garrison at Tubac was withdrawn on the approach of the Americans without a shot being fired, the transfer of control being very peaceable.) My many negative posts as to the validity of the stones may have given some of the readers the impression that I am saying it is IMPOSSIBLE that the Peralta legends could be true, and the stones as well, but want to point out that it is quite possible both the legends and the stones could be genuine. I personally cannot accept the stones and legends as true, they do not quite ring true to my tin ear, but I could very well be wrong. I have not spent that much time researching them due to the fact they did not look right to me the first time I looked at them; I had not noticed the difference in the numbers pointed out by Randy though - and the fact that others had already tried using the stones to find the legendary mines seemed like a strong reason not to expend my limited time on them. As has been said, if they are genuine, there is very likely a fatal flaw, this would be deliberate, and it is not going to be readily apparent. I don't really consider myself a dimwit (despite all that you have heard from so many folks ) but if these others were unable to figure out what the fatal flaw is, there is no reason for me to think myself so superior that I could work it out where everyone else failed. I have more confidence in other evidence and other methods (good old regular prospecting work, sampling and sampling and following up the colors, which is how the OTHER version of the LDM was found says that Jacob found the vein of rich gold-in-quartz) in which I have a tiny bit of experience. This may be the "hard" way to find any lost mine, but it has the advantage of knowing that virtually all mineral deposits have been originally located in that manner; you can feel like you are making progress (and are, actually, even when you find no trace of gold or indicator minerals you are at least ruling out a particular site) and eventually, methodically, you would find it - if you live long enough or just a bit lucky.

Barry Storm not revealing that he had made the Peralta stones? I see no reason why he would reveal it, if he had made them (and I would point to him as the most likely suspect, even go so far as to call him a liar on a few things he wrote which is something I have not done with any other person, except one other I would rather not even bring up) I would think he would plant them somewhere close to the Superstitions, yet close to some major highway where it was only a matter of time before someone found them - then hope that they would announce it to the press; he would be gambling that no one would ever find them, and that they might not announce to the press but sure enough it was only a matter of time before someone did find them, and the word eventually got to the press in a big splash - Life magazine! i can picture Barry grinning with glee when it finally hit the press. Isn't it the least bit "funny" that no one ever managed to find those stones prior to 1949, when Barry Storm was there pushing the Lost Dutchman mine and Peralta legends, even though it seems logical that the highway workers would have spotted the rectangular stone sticking out of the ground while they were building the highway; we can ask too why there is no mention of the stones prior to 1949 too, though Pedro Peralta at the least would have known of them (logically) if they were really made at the time of the mines (assuming the mines were real) or even afterwards, since HE was the sole survivor and would be the only soul on the planet who would know the actual locations? This almost decrees that if the stones ARE genuine, then either Pedro made them or he had them made.

I was also reading the discussion on MOEL, (on that other forum) and that whole stock charade does not fill me with confidence in the validity of those stones. I think the case for the stones would be better off if MOEL were not a part of it - though there can be no chance that MOEL created them. Why is it when we get into Peraltas, we run into so many FRAUDS, without even counting the stones? (land grant fraud, MOEL fraud...)

You asked an hypothetical question,
Let's go a little further with this scenario: Say you found the LDM. It is as rich as the best legend says. Gold just laying there for the picking! Would you work it secretly, or would you report it and try to get it legally (not likely)?


Well if you mean TODAY then no I would not file any kind of claim, you cannot do so legally. If prior to the "wilderness" (or state park, depending on exactly where) then absolutely YES I would file a claim on it, which would give me legal title to the claim; this might attract attention but I would not care. Of course Jacob Waltz didn't file his claim either so perhaps the Peraltas felt the same way as he did? Claim jumpers have always been a pain and a danger (even today!) so that could be a reason not to file. However we know that the two proven mines operated by Peraltas WERE legally filed on and claimed, both before and after the Mexican war.

Then too, any Mexican or American prospector in the mountains during the war could not have possibly known 1) how it would end, or 2) where the new border might be, if it were moved at all. You know that the border of Arizona as settled by the treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo was fairly north of where it is today, (the southern patch being bought later in the Gadsden Purchase) there certainly could NOT have been any way to be sure that the mountains would end up being in either Mexico or America. In my opinion, if I were a prospector who made a rich find or group of veins, in such a time of upheaval I would immediately file (or denounce) claims on them to ensure legal title. The Superstitions ended up being within Arizona, but not that far into US territory until after the Gadsden Purchase.

Mike if you do decide to come down off that fence (aren't those picket-points bothering you yet? ) and do go put the stones to the ultimate test, I hope you will keep us posted as to what you find? You just never know with these things, and you never know just what you might find - could be something really good.
Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

 

[gollum]

Good arguments all!

I will take the best one first:

You say that the Mexicans knew that if the US won the war that they would keep their claims. I don't believe that for a second! It is 2006 right now, and the Mexicans believe that the Minutemen were coming to shoot illegals! They believe what they are fed. I don't think it would have have been that different back then. I think that the Mexican government would have stirred up as much fear and hatred of the Americans as they could (that is an integral part of EVERY war)!

No, if Storm had faked the maps, he would have said something before he died. When he was old, he became a nobody (mostly). A poor old timer with nothing but memories. When the stones came to light in 1964, that would have been his chance for another few minutes in the spotlight again! People like Storm who feel the need to lie to get their stories out, are looking for one thing.....ATTENTION! And an attention seeker would not have passed on a chance to have the cameras aimed at him!

I'm not positive, but I believe that the pre-requisite for retaining your land or claim was to renounce your Mexican citizenship, and pledge allegiance to the USA. The Peraltas had land and position in Mexico, they weren't some poor peasant family who would lose nothing by becoming Americans. They were a prominent family in many parts of Mexico. It would probably have been a disgrace for them to give up being Mexicans!

You are 100% wrong about the whole MOEL thing! The MOEL incident gives us a LOT of factual evidence about the stones. If it weren't for MOEL buying the stones from Alleen Tumlinson, they may have been thrown out while cleaning out her husbands stuff, and we might have never heard of them. There would have been no tests on them, there would be no legal history, and the FLAGG FOUNDATION would never have gotten them, which means we wouldn't have them to look at to this very day! The whole MOEL thing is the SINGLE reason why we have the stones today!

Then too, any Mexican or American prospector in the mountains during the war could not have possibly known 1) how it would end, or 2) where the new border might be, if it were moved at all.

Time for another COME ON! It wasn't necessary for them to KNOW how the war would turn out or where the border might be. Just the chance of the US winning and their mines winding up in the US, would be enough to scare the crap out of them! ALL war is a very uncertain thing. They may have also been worried that Americans may have gone on a rampage killing Mexicans after or during the war.

I can think of a hundred good reasons for a Mexican not to file a claim on a mine in Arizona at that time. Remember the part from the story about the Bradshaw Peraltas in the 1860s. It was made illegal for non-anglos to mine in the entire Walker District! Why would they think it would be any different anywhere else?

My thoughts on the Peralta Land Fraud case are these:

It is a very good chance that the stones were made to bolster the claimants case. they may not have had the chance to use them, before they found out that their scheme was found out. What would they do? Maybe go dump all the stones in the same hole in the desert? THAT sounds more likely than the Barry Storm idea. It also allows for the FBI tests (that I firmly believe).

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,
Gollum wrote"
You say that the Mexicans knew that if the US won the war that they would keep their claims."
No that is not exactly what I said, what I said was"they could not have known that the Americans intended to seize all of their properties which is different in meaning. They could not have known that they would be able to keep property nor that it would be seized, it makes sense however to make some attempt to establish legal title when governments are in upheaval and wars are raging. Perhaps they would have chosen to keep them secret instead, and run the gamble?

You also mentioned the Walker district regulation (which was in force only in the Walker district) yet this was some twenty years after the period of the legendary Peralta mines. Undoubtedly some feared the arrival of Americans, which seems a fair reason to make sure of legal titles to properties of all types.

Now I will readily grant you that Reavis was a known forger of legal documents, it would be within his abilities to create false stone maps - however it seems logical that he would have produced them to bolster his claims in court, and there is no mention of the stones in his day or previous to 1949, at least not that you have posted or I have seen. The fact that they are found in the heyday of Storm seems an odd coincidence though wouldn't you think?

Gollum also wrote: "You are 100% wrong about the whole MOEL thing!" well heck Mike what exactly did I say that is 100 percent wrong here? I said that the whole stock scheme charade did not fill me with confidence on the legitimacy of the Peralta stones, and that in my opinion they would be in better case without MOEL involved, which was a criminal investigation. To me, it is casting a shadow of doubt that is not actually connected (yep making a leap from A to B to Z myself here, not on purpose though) that I think would have been better if it had not happened.

Thanks buddy, I very much enjoyed the discussion (regardless of our difference of opinion) guess I will not bore you all the way dead tonight - talk to ya later...
your friend,
Roy - Oroblanco

 

[Aurum]

The Stone Map question of authenticity is clouded in a lot of mis information and twisted facts. This is not the result of deception but rather retelling of stories that were part fact and part speculation.

For what it's worth, the FBI never did their own investigation into the Stone Maps. When Alleen Tumlinson sold the maps in 1961 to Clarence Mitchell, it was Mitchell who had the Stone Maps analized by three geologists who worked for the University of California at Los Angeles. Martin Stout was the professor of Geology at UCLA and D.L. Dana and Donald Chance were professors of geology and geoscience at Redlands University in Redlands, California. The three geologists, with help fromthe Redlands University Art History Department, concluded the maps were of an age, more than 100 years old but unable to give an exact age beyond that estimate. Professors Chance and Dana provided Clarence Mitchell with a letter of authenticity stating these findings.

Clarence O. Mitchell was MOEL Inc. He was the President and Chief executive officer of the MOEL Corporation incorporated under the laws of the State of Nevada. Arthur Meyers was the attorney for the corporation. When Clarence Mitchell was under investigation by the State of Nevada for securities violations, the FBI became involved because investments and assets were located outside the State of Nevada.

The FBI never did an investigation into the authenticity of the Stone Maps. They simply took Clarence Mitchell's letter of authenticity and questioned professors Stout, Dana and Chance about their findings. All three professors stood by their original conclusion based upon their earlier investigations, and Professor Dana provided the FBI and State of Nevada with a letter that confirmed their earlier conclusion.

Bob Corbin's comments, merely reflected what the FBI themselves knew about the authenticity of the Stone Maps. Bob Corbin is the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona. I have known Bob and his family for many years, have been in the mountains on numerous occasions with him and consider him to be honest and above board in all his dealings.

The FBI never confiscated the Stone Maps from MOEL Inc. They merely siezed them as evidence while the securities investigation was ongoing. The maps were returned to Clarence Mitchell following the investigation and it was Mitchell who donated the maps to the Arizona Mineral Museum which today includes the Flagg Foundation. The maps are today, on loan to the Arizona Mineral Museum / Flagg Foundation from MOEL Inc.

Aurum

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sheehs, sniff how come I don't rate a threatening letter? The only threats that I receive are from my lovin wife. Gollum, ORO, or someone, please send me some here at TN. Jeff, let em pass.

As for the Stones ARUM, why wait soo long to embarass me ? I must admit that I was only responding to what my buddy Gollum had posted without cross checking on his information. I assumed that he had done so as usual, and was responding to potential hypothetical questions and statements --- sheehs just plain argueng with no real interest on which side, when I should have been using documented data. sigh..

I still back Oro Blanco :>D------------------> room.

Till Eulenspiegle de La Mancha --- Tropical Tramp

p.s. Gollum, who was Till/de la mancha and why did he act as he did/does?

 

[gollum]

Hey Aurum,

Thanks for the info. Some of it is brand new. I knew about Professor Dana at the University of Redlands, but not the other folks involved. I have not been able to get any written proof of the testing done at that time (and I said so).

I knew all about Mitchell, and he was also a friend of the Tumlinson's before Bob and Travis' deaths. That's why Alleen sold them to him.

Now you are playing semantics when you say that the FBI didn't "confiscate" the stones, they "siezed them as evidence". Same thing to me. Whether I siezed your car, or confiscated your car, the effect is the same.

What is your source of the FBI returning the stones to Mitchell. I have a few sources that state the stones were turned over to some of the investors after the trial, I have a source that came out of the woodwork after seeing that we were getting pretty close to things at the LDM Forum. He claims to have been one of the investors, and states that the stones were NEVER returned to either the investors or MOEL, because the testing showed them be AT LEAST 100 years old. That being the case, they fell under the auspices of the Arizona Antiquities Act, and therefore not open to private ownership. I know that is a law, and I highly doubt that if the stones were shown to be in excess of 100 years old, that they would have been turned over to any civilian. If that would have been the case, then ANY of the investors (some of whom are still alive) could sue the state of Arizona for ownership (then sell the stones on EBAY, and make a fortune).

Also, where did you find that the FBI simply used the results of the tests performed at UCLA/Redlands? I believe that when I get the information back from my FOIA inquiry, that should clear up that subject quickly.

Either way though, whether the tests were certified at UCLA/Redlands AND the FBI, OR just the FBI, OR just UCLA/Redlands, the story doesn't change. The stones are currently in excess of 140 years old. And again, right in the middle of the Peralta Land Grant Fraud.

So, even with the new names (Thanks), I am no better off than I was yesterday!

Either the stones are part of the Arizona Land Baron or they are authentic.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,
Tropical Tramp, now come on, are you going to tell us that you have never been threatened, especially when you were closing in on Tayopa? I don't believe that - Tayopa is one of the most famous lost mines in the world, and even though it is today found there are still some true-believer types out searching for it. However you didn't say you were never threatened, only not threatened here so I will oblige!

Tropical Tramp, you are stepping on some very big toes here (I have big feet you know hee hee) and if you don't stop letting out all these secrets, I will sneak into your home and steal ALL of the toilet paper! I will have to wait til you're not at home as my slow fat arse is not that good at dodging speeding 30-30 rounds, and haven't figured out just how I will get past that dog (the times I have been bitten by dogs was really unpleasant!) but I am going ahead and making an empty threat anyway! So there! :P (haha) Honestly, I would not care to tangle with either of you boys, Joseph or Mike! I've been shot at, but by fellows who were not exactly marksmen - in your case I fear that you would NOT miss!

I promised to keep my posts shorter so end here.
Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal

 

[gollum]

NEW THREAT INFO!

I received this PM from one of the other people included in the threat:

Hi Mike,

Yes I saw that and just laughed it off. That guy has been jumping back and forth on both sides of every argument on this site for a long time. I just figured him for a trouble maker and ignored him. That all changed at 3:00 AM this morning when I got another veiled threat via my home phone. Somebody wanted to let me know that they knew who I am, what my phone number is and where I live. This Dutchman thing is supposed to be a hobby for fun and relaxation. It just isn't fun for me anymore. I got online after the phone call and deleted all my posts in the stone map thread. I fear that the walls have eyes and ears here even in PM's. If you want to discuss all this in more detail, please provide me with an email address where we can do it more privately.

****

THINGS ARE HEATING UP! Unfortunately, he has chosen to back away from the subject, but if he lives in the Apache Junction Area, I don't fault him a bit. It would be a bit unnerving having to look over your shoulder whenever left the house. I have to say though, that pi$$es me off, and I have said so on the other forum.

The original threatening post was edited by the poster today, so as to look less threatening. I reposted his original post, so now he can't edit it away!

Mike

 

[Aurum]

I just first read this exchange yesterday so didn't have the means to post any sooner.

The source for the Stone Maps being returned to Clarence Mitchell was Mason Coggins, former chief geologist and curator of the Arizona State Mineral Museum in Phoenix. Mason told me he received the stone tablets from Mitchell as a loan. The Museum never publically displayed the stones but did loan them out to interested groups or as a novelty during special events at the museum.

There were few investors outside of Mitchell himself, his family and close friends. Coggins stated it was Mitchell himself who approached the Museum. The Flagg Foundation did not become involved with the stones until later.

The stones were found to be of no value other than as a personal curiousity. Mitchell bought the stones, he did not dig them up himself and since it could not be proven other than by heresay where the stones were found, there was no legal claim the State or Federal Government had over them. For all anyone knew they could have came from anywhere. Mrs. Tumlinson was dead at the time of the investigations and could not be called upon to testify. The stones were old, but old is not the legal requirement to confiscate something. There are other legal requirements that must be proven to confiscate private property. Mitchell was never convicted of any crimes, he agreed to disolve MOEL Inc. and not to engage in securities exchange for the next 3 or 5 years. I believe Bob Corbin told me once that the whole matter was settled out of court but I am not certain if those were his exact words.

Confiscation and seizing property are two seperate things under the law. The government can confiscate property that clearly doesn't belong to someone or property that someone clearly got illegally. The government can seize private property but must prove the property is not the legal property of the individual or return it to them.

Other than Clarence Mitchell was also known as Travis Marlowe, a nom de plume, I can't add much to the story.

At one time I didn't believe the Stone Maps were authentic but have in years since changed that opinion. I do not know where the maps lead to, who made them or if they had anything to do with the Peralta's.

Aurum

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Aurum and welcome to Ye Loonie Binn of Treasurenet!
I would like to ask you to clarify one statement of your last post in this thread - specifically,

The stones were found to be of no value other than as a personal curiousity.

Who concluded that the stones were "of no value" - the state? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

 

[Aurum]

Oro,

I believe it was Bob who told me they were found to be of no value other than as a curiousity, a legal term.

The way I understood it was, since no one could prove positively where they came from or how they were found/made, there only value was as a curiousity to someone who placed a value on them. Something like a Barry Bonds foul ball. It doesn't mean they were valueless, it just meant legally there was no provable value or provable basis for a value. They could be priceless, but no way as of yet to prove it.

Aurum

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello Mike,

re:NEW THREAT INFO!

That is just a shame, which shows how threats impact people - we have lost a fellow treasure hunter. If Ward was only fooling or trying to pass along a warning, it was in very bad taste. I still hope you will turn him in.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Here is the real question: "How did whoever it was that left the message get ****'s phone number?"

It could have been gotten from his IP Address, but guess who has that? The Moderators!

It's getting to be sticky over there!

Mike

 

[gollum]

I just first read this exchange yesterday so didn't have the means to post any sooner.

The source for the Stone Maps being returned to Clarence Mitchell was Mason Coggins, former chief geologist and curator of the Arizona State Mineral Museum in Phoenix. Mason told me he received the stone tablets from Mitchell as a loan. The Museum never publically displayed the stones but did loan them out to interested groups or as a novelty during special events at the museum.

There were few investors outside of Mitchell himself, his family and close friends. Coggins stated it was Mitchell himself who approached the Museum. The Flagg Foundation did not become involved with the stones until later.

The stones were found to be of no value other than as a personal curiousity. Mitchell bought the stones, he did not dig them up himself and since it could not be proven other than by heresay where the stones were found, there was no legal claim the State or Federal Government had over them. For all anyone knew they could have came from anywhere. Mrs. Tumlinson was dead at the time of the investigations and could not be called upon to testify. The stones were old, but old is not the legal requirement to confiscate something. There are other legal requirements that must be proven to confiscate private property. Mitchell was never convicted of any crimes, he agreed to disolve MOEL Inc. and not to engage in securities exchange for the next 3 or 5 years. I believe Bob Corbin told me once that the whole matter was settled out of court but I am not certain if those were his exact words.

Confiscation and seizing property are two seperate things under the law. The government can confiscate property that clearly doesn't belong to someone or property that someone clearly got illegally. The government can seize private property but must prove the property is not the legal property of the individual or return it to them.

Other than Clarence Mitchell was also known as Travis Marlowe, a nom de plume, I can't add much to the story.

At one time I didn't believe the Stone Maps were authentic but have in years since changed that opinion. I do not know where the maps lead to, who made them or if they had anything to do with the Peralta's.

Aurum

Thanks for clearing that up. I still am having trouble wrapping my brain around the fact that the stones were found to be at least 100 years old, but to have no value other than as a curiosity. Although there was no absolute evidence that they were found in Az, EVERY story about them starts in Az. I guess seeing it through 1964 eyes would be different. I'm lookng at the story through 2006 eyes. Everybody knows the stones were found in Az. Those are the two big hurdles to get over in an Antiquities case. They would've had to have been found in Az, and would've had to have been antiqueswith historical value.

At that time, there weren't ANY stories floating around about them, until after the Life Magazine Article. The map Travis drew, that Gene Davis still has, was not public knowledge at the time.

I absolutely believe the part about there not being a trial, becaue the US Attorney and the SEC had MOEL (Mitchell) dead to rights for illegal stock selling, he would have done anything to keep it from going to trial (including repay $60-$80k)

OK! On to UCLA!

Hey AUrum, if all this is true, and I have seen much of it before, then why are people getting threatening phone calls, and I am getting veiled threats online? There is something missing somewhere, that somebody doesn't want coming out!

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI: Well we all have to step down in favor of AURUM, he "out-knows" - (that is MY word, so leave it alone) - all of us combined, with me, for my part, that doesn't amount to much, sniff, but collectively quite a bit..

Sigh, at last "I" have received a genuine threat, thanks ORO BLANCO. Return threat, when you come to Tayopa, You will NOT have a reserved outhouse seat, so eat the apples at your own risk! Believe me they do work sheesh.

Incidentally, in regards to any threats while on the Tayopa trail because of Tayopa, none, just a few run ins with various bandit gangs who were quickly discouraged. I think that my reputation has been my best protection ever since. I definitely will NOT go into details for very obvious reasons

Soo we are back to square one in that many many mistakes have been made all around on both sides. This doesn't speak too highly of us as researchers does it? But then for me it is a fun game countering any arguments on either side.

SO Gallum, send me $30 US and I will get you intimate data on any one in here, as for a ID of any posts or em's there are simple programs that you can download, many free, which will give you that. There is even a master list available on anyone that has ever used the net.

I do not think that for one moment, that my buddies, Jeff or Marc, had anything thing to do with it, or are even interested in it.

Next step in the search for truth on the stones and the LDM.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=gollum ]
Jose,

First of all, you haven't addressed my question as to why would the Government want to prove that fake stones were real? There is ZERO logic in that! The logical thing would be for the Gov to prove the authentic stones were fakes! That way they would have had a case of fraud against MOEL, and got them to pay out a lot more than they did (fraud charges are more serious than selling unlicensed stocks). If the Gov knew they were fakes, WHY would they want to take them away from those that had them? THINK MAN THINK!
**************
Hmmm gollum,

A) Prove fake stories were real. ------obviously to have them fall under the antiquities act if possible. The State benefits.

B) To prove that they were fakes -----this would only apply "if" the MOEL HAD PRIOR KNOWLEDGE that they were fakes
with-in the period of selling stock. I.E. the GOOD FAITH thingie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If there was any chicanery with the FBI, there are still investors alive out there (I have corresponded with one) from the MOEL deal that would have a very good claim of ownership of the stones (if they did not fall under the auspices of the Arizona Antiquities Act). The one I spoke with absolutely believes they are over 140 years old. He told me that if they were fakes, he would have sued for ownership, because he could rake in the bucks on EBAY fakes or not!
****************

Well in light of the latest data, thanks to AURUM, they are considered as fakes by the state, so he should get to cracking. I wonder why he doesn't have the same data on the official opinion of the state?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If Barry Storm had faked the stones, why on Earth would they have been kept a secret? Here is a quote from somebody who knew Barry Storm:
****************

Who said that he did? My bet is placed on the Peralta land claims as evidence of a presence in Az at the time the claims of land grants etc., were being made. Perhaps after burying them, something went wrong and they were unable to find them again in the period when they would have swayed the case? Since they never came to light at that time, they certainly could not be quoted in defense/support of the claim. That would be simply admitting to a preconceived intent to fraud.

Till Eulenspiegle de La Mancha -- Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Not so fast Jose,

NOPE! NO SENSE! If they were fakes, the state would have absolutely no interest in taking the stones. Why would they go to all that trouble and expense to litigate for something that wasn't real? The state would have absolutely nothing to gain by taking fake stones! They would not even want them!

Even if Aurum's entire version is true (and I'm still having trouble with a couple of parts of it), the state NEVER said they weren't authentic! On the contrary, the state was satisfied by the testing done that they were at least 100 years old. So was the FBI (Aurum's version). They just said that since there was no legal way to prove where they led to or came from, that they had no significant value, except as a curiosity! I can kind of understand that (not completely though), if you think that the State of Arizona does not employ treasure hunters. It would take WAAAAAY to much of the state's resources to try and figure out the stone's puzzle.

Oro (Roy) said he believed it was most likely Storm that faked the stones.

Like I said before; I am in the same place I was two days ago: Either they are real treasure maps, or they were part of the Peralta Land Grant Scheme.

Best,

Mike