Hello Gollum and everyone,
I hope you will turn in Ward for the thinly-veiled threat. (I found the threat on thelostdutchmangoldmine.com) It might just be BS like you said, but if it was meant as humor it came off NOT funny. People have been killed over what was perceived as knowledge of the LDM, and this type of whacko is the type who will shoot in the back.
I found the other forum (not a member there) and looked up the profile of Ward, (
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/pb/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=299) and he has NO information whatsoever other than he has put up 19 posts and joined on 25 Jun 2005 - now I also like to keep my privacy but not to the point that I make it impossible to get my name and address etc - he seems to like to toss around threats and is apparently too cowardly to post his real name on his profile page. Might very well
be a whacko, dyed in the wool.
Now back to the biz-ness at hand. I have been to the Superstition mtn museum in Goldfield, which in my opinion is one of the neatest museums in the country, rivalled only by a tiny museum in Lewes Delaware that has the hull of a sunken treasure ship on display. Even the little ghost town of Goldfield is really neat and worth a few photos for posterity, all nicely restored with no television aerials showing on the rooftops. I did look at the stuff they had on display on the Peraltas (now this is a few years ago, may have more by now of course) and it was all interesting and neat too. You have presented an in-depth, well thought out argument in favor of the stones being genuine, despite not coming off that pointy fence quite yet, and I did not intend to imply that you had not used logic, you obviously have - only that we seem to have weighted the various likelihoods differently and see different possible answers and scenarios to explain the evidence and stories.
I am fairly sure that Mexican citizens did not lose their documented property at the conclusion of the Mexican-American war, and the US government has gone to some lengths to even approve and certify the land claims dating back to the days of Spanish rule (see the many land grant claims which were examined by the Federal courts, a majority were approved even when the lands had not been selected over a period of nearly 100 years, the Reavis-Peralta fraud was unusual) though I will have to check on it. I have read where un-documented mining claims were ruled invalid, somewhere, but I am not sure where it would take some time to hunt it up in the old court records. (A side note here but wouldn't it be great if they would put the old court records online?) I guess that it is a matter of personal choice - if I had discovered a group of rich gold mines in the Superstitions and a war was on-going, my personal choice would be to file on them as quickly as possible just in case my side (Mexico) were to lose at least I would have documented legal title, they could not have known that the Americans intended to seize all of their properties and this in fact did not occur; however another man might feel it a safer choice to keep it secret until the 'shootin' was over (there was very little actual shooting in Arizona during this war, in fact the Spanish garrison at Tubac was withdrawn on the approach of the Americans without a shot being fired, the transfer of control being very peaceable.) My many negative posts as to the validity of the stones may have given some of the readers the impression that I am saying it is IMPOSSIBLE that the Peralta legends could be true, and the stones as well, but want to point out that it is quite possible both the legends and the stones could be genuine. I personally cannot accept the stones and legends as true, they do not quite ring true to my tin ear, but I could very well be wrong. I have not spent that much time researching them due to the fact they did not look right to me the first time I looked at them; I had not noticed the difference in the numbers pointed out by Randy though - and the fact that others had already tried using the stones to find the legendary mines seemed like a strong reason not to expend my limited time on them. As has been said, if they are genuine, there is very likely a fatal flaw, this would be deliberate, and it is not going to be readily apparent. I don't really consider myself a dimwit (despite all that you have heard from so many folks
) but if these others were unable to figure out what the fatal flaw is, there is no reason for me to think myself so superior that I could work it out where everyone else failed. I have more confidence in other evidence and other methods (good old regular prospecting work, sampling and sampling and following up the colors, which is how the OTHER version of the LDM was found says that Jacob found the vein of rich gold-in-quartz) in which I have a tiny bit of experience. This may be the "hard" way to find any lost mine, but it has the advantage of knowing that virtually all mineral deposits have been originally located in that manner; you can feel like you are making progress (and are, actually, even when you find no trace of gold or indicator minerals you are at least ruling out a particular site) and eventually, methodically, you would find it - if you live long enough or just a bit lucky.
Barry Storm not revealing that he had made the Peralta stones? I see no reason why he would reveal it, if he had made them (and I would point to him as the most likely suspect, even go so far as to call him a liar on a few things he wrote which is something I have not done with any other person, except one other I would rather not even bring up) I would think he would plant them somewhere close to the Superstitions, yet close to some major highway where it was only a matter of time before someone found them - then hope that they would announce it to the press; he would be gambling that no one would ever find them, and that they might not announce to the press but sure enough it was only a matter of time before someone did find them, and the word eventually got to the press in a big splash - Life magazine! i can picture Barry grinning with glee when it finally hit the press. Isn't it the least bit "funny" that no one ever managed to find those stones prior to 1949, when Barry Storm was there pushing the Lost Dutchman mine and Peralta legends, even though it seems logical that the highway workers would have spotted the rectangular stone sticking out of the ground while they were building the highway; we can ask too why there is no mention of the stones prior to 1949 too, though Pedro Peralta at the least would have known of them (logically) if they were really made at the time of the mines (assuming the mines were real) or even afterwards, since HE was the sole survivor and would be the only soul on the planet who would know the actual locations? This almost decrees that if the stones ARE genuine, then either Pedro made them or he had them made.
I was also reading the discussion on MOEL, (on that other forum) and that whole stock charade does not fill me with confidence in the validity of those stones. I think the case for the stones would be better off if MOEL were not a part of it - though there can be no chance that MOEL created them. Why is it when we get into Peraltas, we run into so many FRAUDS, without even counting the stones? (land grant fraud, MOEL fraud...)
You asked an hypothetical question,
Let's go a little further with this scenario: Say you found the LDM. It is as rich as the best legend says. Gold just laying there for the picking! Would you work it secretly, or would you report it and try to get it legally (not likely)?
Well if you mean TODAY then no I would not file any kind of claim, you cannot do so legally. If prior to the "wilderness" (or state park, depending on exactly where) then absolutely YES I would file a claim on it, which would give me legal title to the claim; this might attract attention but I would not care. Of course Jacob Waltz didn't file his claim either so perhaps the Peraltas felt the same way as he did? Claim jumpers have always been a pain and a danger (even today!) so that could be a reason not to file. However we know that the two proven mines operated by Peraltas WERE legally filed on and claimed, both before and after the Mexican war.
Then too, any Mexican or American prospector in the mountains during the war could not have possibly known 1) how it would end, or 2) where the new border might be, if it were moved at all. You know that the border of Arizona as settled by the treaty of Guadeloupe-Hidalgo was fairly north of where it is today, (the southern patch being bought later in the Gadsden Purchase) there certainly could NOT have been any way to be sure that the mountains would end up being in either Mexico or America. In my opinion, if I were a prospector who made a rich find or group of veins, in such a time of upheaval I would immediately file (or denounce) claims on them to ensure legal title. The Superstitions ended up being within Arizona, but not that far into US territory until after the Gadsden Purchase.
Mike if you do decide to come down off that fence (aren't those picket-points bothering you yet?
) and do go put the stones to the ultimate test, I hope you will keep us posted as to what you find? You just never know with these things, and you never know just what you might find - could be something really good.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Thank you in advance,
