The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[gollum]

Here is the real question: "How did whoever it was that left the message get ****'s phone number?"

It could have been gotten from his IP Address, but guess who has that? The Moderators!

It's getting to be sticky over there!

Mike

Unless ***** has a static IP, it is virtually impossible to trace a dynamic (leased) IP,eh?

Even a dynamic IP leaves a trail back to where it came from. Just a little more work to find. There is very good software that can trace any IP. I don't know whether **** has a static or dynamic IP.

Best,

Mike

 

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[Aurum]

I can't say why some are getting threatening phone calls and messages. I know that the Stone Map topic is a very passionate issue with some folks. For all that is known about the stones, it is overshadowed by the mountain of things that aren't known. The MOEL Corporation and the legal problems that followed only served to cloud the issues even more. There are some very knowledgable people, here, and out there who know a whole lot more about the stones than I do and they guard their knowledge and secrets very seriously.

I feel for the investors who lost money in the MOEL investigation and never got it back. One has to take into account that in the early 1960's, the best these investors could hope to regain from the stone maps was the value Clarence Mitchell paid for them, $1,200. And that was only if someone back then would have paid that for them. We tend to fast forward to today and look at what the stones might bring on todays market after all the publicity of the past 43 years. The prospectus of the MOEL Corporation only promised a return on investment if the maps were acurate and the mines/treasure could be located and would still be in place. It was buyer beware in spades. MOEL wasn't in trouble so much for promising things they couldn't produce, rather they got in trouble for the way they went about selling their stock and for selling without a proper liscense.

My personal take on the whole thing is the government, while skeptical, never had evidence, nor could they prove the stone maps were a fake or that the Tumlinsons or Mitchell had any hand in their creation. That is by no means an endorsement of their authenticity, only the statement that while the government could prove MOEL
didn't follow proper proceedures in the sale of stock, they couldn't prove conclusively the stones were fakes.

Aurum

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=Oroblanco I will sneak into your home and steal ALL of the toilet paper!
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Lay off of the toilet paper that is my mules! Cute story here but not about the LDM. Why I am well known in the sierras heeheeh. I owe it to you. I have no idea where to post it in TN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Joseph or Mike! I've been shot at, but by fellows who were not exactly marksmen - in your case I fear that you would NOT miss!
****************
I try not to miss, ammo is expensve.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Aurum,

Are you the same Aurum at the LDM Forum?

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I will say the same thing to you that I said to Oroblanco about MOEL: If it weren't for MOEL and them getting the Life Magazine Article, the Stones might have gotten tosssed in a dumpster when Aleen cleaned out Travis' stuff post mortem! No matter how cloudy that situatrion has made the stones, we owe MOEL and Mitchell for getting the word to the public (no matter their reasons).

Best,

Mike

 

[Aurum]

gollum,

I have to agree with you completely about Alleen Tumlinsons role in the Stone Maps. Without her involvement the stones would have been lost forever. The story of where the stones originated, how and where they were found, as well as the account of the MOEL investigation leave a LOT of unanswered questions. What I have posted is just the little I have learned over the years from Bob Corbin, Martin Stout, Mason Coggins and a man named Robert Miller who now has the personal effects of Clarence O. Mitchell. A letter written in 1962 from Alleen Tumlinson to Clarence Mitchell is a real eye opener. The letter doesn't prove or disprove the authenticity of the Stone Maps or their origin but does point one to some conclusions that few if any Stone Map seekers have contemplated. The Mitchell material is not mine so I cannot comment on what I think. There is ongoing research but where it will lead and what it will uncover is again a big question mark. Nothing that would solve the puzzle of the Stone Maps but there is a possibility it might lead to their origin.

Concerning the other Forum you mentioned. There is no way information such as appears here could ever be posted or considered on that forum, for obvious reasons.

Aurum

 

[gollum]

So it is you!

Go to the other place, and check out the thread about "Bob Corbin-The FBI-The Stone Maps"

Some guy named Scott posted yesterday, and he used the word "we" in conjunction with a statement about testing the stones. Might just be a nutjob, but we'll see. Easy enough to prove or disprove his info.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,
I am still ticked off that some jerk had to go and make threats. How did someone get the private phone number? Now that sort of a threat is more serious (in my book) than the empty sort we see in forums, though thankfully even these are relatively rare. I would turn the threatener in to the authorities, not out of fear but to put a stop to it. Heck they can "get" me easily enough, but boy they won't get much for their efforts!

Aurum very good information, however I must conclude that we are still in a paradox; for even if the FBI DID test the stones for age, (and I see on that other board that the FBI actually NEVER tested the stones, they took affadavits as proof enough) as I have posted before, even the very best experts in the world have been fooled with fake stone inscriptions, and more often than they like to admit. There is no perfect way to establish a precise age of any stone inscription, which is why archaeologists look very hard for ANY other kind of evidence they can find in situ buried alongside, and neither deeper nor shallower than the stone to help in making a determination of the age of the inscription. Worse yet, they (Tumlinsons) CLEANED the stones before the experts had a chance to examine them, which removed the little clues that the experts would have used to give an educated estimate, correct? Does that fact fill you with confidence in the exact age of the inscriptions as being DEFINITELY 100 years-old-plus? I cited several examples of this type of controversy (earlier in this thread) about the age of a stone inscription, (I am working on a book which includes some stone inscriptions) but if you want a real good example just look at the case of the famous or rather infamous King Solomon's Tablet. The experts did every test they could think of on this stone, which actually didn't name Solomon but Hezekiah, and were ALL fooled until some sharp scientist figured out how it had been done. (I am sure there are websites on this terrific fraud) I would point out that the forger NEVER admitted to having made it, though he was in fact convicted of it. The age of the inscriptions can NOT be proven for an absolute certainty with current science. If only some old Spanish or Mexican coins dating to 1846-7 had been found right alongside those stones.... Then I would line up with you friends as a true believer. (Then I would start packing those old panniers and rolling up the sleeping bag!!! The Superstitions are around three hours drive from here.)

Which brings me to the next point - we can only surmise as to WHY fake stones would be created, and propose possible motives. There certainly are enough motives for a forger to create them, and if they did not exist I would almost expect some jerk would be working on it right now. The flip side of 'why would a forger make fake stones', is why on earth the forger never came forward about it? I covered several possible reasons why a forger would not come forward (like fear of prosecution, my next point below) but had not thought of a very basic one - how about fear of being beaten to a pulp or killed by someone who had believed in them? Seems like a pretty strong reason NOT to step forward and proudly boast of one's 'artwork' - in order to avoid a storm(cheap pun intended here) of anger from the person(s) who had been fooled!

Now that Aurum has brought more information to light, and in light of the information you have already been exposed to in the other forum, are you ready to come down off that fence yet, friend Gollum? You are braver than that! After all there seems to be only two possibilities, either they are real or they are frauds, so you stand at least a fifty-fifty chance of being in the right - at worst some jerk could say "I told you so" but don't look for me to do that; heck I would like to see them proven real. We may never know the absolute truth in our lifetimes, which makes taking a stand relatively risk-free.

Tropical Tramp I admit I am surprised that no one threatened you concerning Tayopa when you were getting "too close", and am glad to hear it really. Especially now that it is TOO LATE for any jerk to make threats since you OWN it!

Gosh, Gollum and Aurum, it doesn't bother you a whit that MOEL looks so shady, that it casts a shadow of doubt across those Peralta stones? I was expressing my opinion that it would have been better if MOEL were not involved, and will explain. We already have a Peralta-related fraud, a BIG one, in the land-grant scam; we need only read Barry Storm and Bicknell to find Peralta-embellishing in stories, and now we have to have the Peralta stones involved in an illegal stock scheme. I would have preferred to have seen the stones examined by the best experts in the field of epigraphy, rather than the FBI or even UCLA (not to cast aspersions on UCLA here) and this examination done BEFORE the stones were cleaned. Statements by the finders and helpers who admit having cleaned them as to how rootlets were growing into the stones etc are not as strong evidence as test results and expert opinion from the best experts, with the stones uncleaned. Look at the case of the Kensington stone - it was cleaned and this resulted in the experts having a great deal of trouble in making an estimate of the age, and even today there are experts who support that stone as genuine while others are convinced it is a fraud. When we start into Peralta legends, I instantly get a faint whiff of skunk and have to look very hard before I can accept anything.

Which brings me to my last point in this already too-long message post (for some readers). First let me ask you both (Gollum and Aurum) - IF the stones are genuine, WHY then were the Tumlinsons unable to locate ANY of the lost mines USING the stones as maps, in the years they tried? We can safely assume that others have put the stones to this ultimate test as well, and with equally dismal results; is this not strong enough evidence for you, whether the stones are genuine or not, that they are drawn with some kind of fatal error or flaw, probably deliberate, which makes them virtually as valuable as the state pronounced them - curiosities. This fact alone, even without all those other reasons for doubt (which I have raised earlier and you have dismissed out of hand, coming up with alternate theories for every question that seems illogical to me), is certainly reason enough NOT to expend time and efforts in the stones. You have both exhibited talent and ability in research, it is my opinion that you would be better served in pursuing other, less controversial, less questionable leads than these stones which even you Gollum are NOT willing to say are NOT frauds.

Gollum I have asked you several times an hypothetical question which you have not answered, which I take as an oversight - the question being whether you would be willing to expend your own time, efforts, gas money etc to go up into the Superstitions and see if they lead to lost mines or not and settle the question once and for all. Randy publicly offered to go along with you as partner, so would be safer than one fellow by himself and seems like he would be good company at the least. If you have not simply avoided answering the question directly due to oversight, I await your reply; if it was no oversight, then I must assume that you are actually more convinced they are frauds than they are genuine, even though you have stated that you lean to believe they are genuine. For IF they ARE genuine, then the stakes are certainly worth the effort, time, and cost to go and find those legendary mines! $$$$ So.....your failure to answer seems to say that you too believe they are actually frauds, not maps to legendary mines. So which is it?

It is aggravating that some jerk is making threats about not bringing more information to light about these stones, but the fact that the jerk is making threats doesn't really make the stones any more genuine, it doesn't even prove that the jerk believes they are genuine - he or she could be just a jerk, having "fun" (on the four-year-old level) or any other reason for making threats. Even if the jerk does believe the stones are real, the fact that a moron like that believes in anything doesn't give it any more credence. I like to encourage treasure hunters and not discourage them, but I don't want to see fellow THers waste time on what I believe are most likely frauds. If you want to see treasure hunters quit the game entirely, send them off on a wild goose chase following up false clues! I would rather that not happen. I remain with Real de Tayopa on this one, these stones are just too good to be true.

Well friends I am off to irritate others, I await your replies.
your friend,
Roy - Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

 

[gollum]

Hey Aurum,

Couple of things;

1. Martin Stout never worked/taught at UCLA. He began teaching at Cal State Los Angeles (CSULA) in 1960, and stayed teaching there until his death in 1994. I am currently trying to find anybody who might know something about the tests.

2. DL Dana did work/teach at UC Redlands. I think he has died as there is a scholarship named after him.

3. The only reference I can find for Martin Chance is that DL Dana was his Undergraduate Professor at UC Redlands. He is the one who donates the money for Danas Scholarship (called the Chance/Dana Scholarship)

4. All three of those men have scholarships named after them. That raises a bit of a red flag. The three most prominent Geology Professors in California just happen to all be involved in the same tests. I don't doubt your word Aurum, but like i stated earlier. I am looking to ABSOLUTELY verify every aspect of the Stone Map's History possible.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hmm now why would you want to verify as much as possible -absolutely- unless,....
1) you are convinced they are genuine and want to prove your point..OR
2) you are convinced they are genuine and want to prove it, because you KNOW where they lead and if enough can be verified you are going after it.

We are after all talking about legendary mines that would be worth millions upon millions in gold, not some stash of say $50 grand that would still be a nice find but would not be worth extraordinary research/effort/time.

Now I have not heard you say that you feel like you HAVE to prove they are real, you have already been threatened by the jerk, and now mentioned that you want to absolutely verify as much as possible. I think I begin to see why El Jerk felt like he had to threaten you (assuming El Jerk thinks the stones are genuine and thinks he/she knows where they lead) because El Jerk is afraid you are going to get to the mines before him. If you would rather not say here, I will understand...
your puzzled friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

NO! Because YOU got me obsessed with those damned stones, and I just want to find out the exact truth about them!

It's not me, but it's how I feel some nights!

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Well shoot Mike, sorry about that! Well on the bright side, if you do become convinced they are genuine, you have worked out what sure appears to be "the" site to go search, and will have good grounds to expect to be successful. On the other hand, if they prove absolutely false, you and I will have spent a lot of time pursuing it - time we might have spent in tracking down some old document that showed where Pedro left his pick stuck in a thick vein of quartz studded with gold....hmm now maybe that gives me an idea.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

See above!

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[Oroblanco
Tropical Tramp I admit I am surprised that no one threatened you concerning Tayopa when you were getting "too close", and am glad to hear it really. Especially now that it is TOO LATE for any jerk to make threats since you OWN it!
***********

Probably because like the stones, no believed that it could be anywhere else than where popular interpretations have placed it, some 60+ miles to the north, so I was considered no threat, on the contrary, a welcomed diversionary factor.

The same applies to those that believe the stones are from the Original Peraltas, and not from the Peralta land claims which is th only logical reason that I can comprehend for their being made in the first place.

With so many workers involved in the so called Peralta mining group, just WHY would they need something that took a bit of work to remind them of the location when the workers themselves knew. Obviously no-one expected to be involved in a wipe-out massacre, so why make stone maps?.

My vote is they that they have nothing to do with any mines in the superstitions, only Land claims..
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Till Eulenspiegle de La Mancha

 

[Aurum]

gollum,

You are on the right track with your information, I don't know where you got your information on Professor Stout but you are half right where he is concerned. I was going on memeory when I said he was at UCLA and you were correct when you said he was professor at CSULA in Los Angeles. Professor Martin retired about 1990 from CS LosAngeles and instructed field geology for UC LosAngeles for several years before his death but not with full professor status. The reason Stout and the others were approached involving the Stone Maps is obvious if your information is solid. I don't know where you got the idea the three geology professors were the three most prominent professors in California ? That is right out of left field and in the field of geology, while they were all very good at their specific geology fields, they would barely be mentioned in California's top 100.

Stout was a field geologist who did extensive study of the mineral belt of central Arizona and was well known locally in the 1950's and 1960's. He was the primary contact for Clarence Mitchell when Mitchell decided to have the Stone Maps analized. Professors Chance and Dana became involved due to their association with Professor Stout. Dana was a palo-geologist and Professor Chance was the head of the geology Department at Redlands and had strong ties to it's art history archives. Do you know Clarence Mitchell's background other than he was an acquaintance of Travis Tumlinson ? If you do, then you understand his association with Martin Stout.

One thing you have to understand is that while the Stone Maps are well known to some of us and a big deal and big part of some of our lives, to professor's Stout, Dana and Chance, they were just a blip on their screen, 44 years ago. They came into their lives for a very brief moment and then left, never to be seen or cared about again. None of these professor's had any ties or interest in the stones outside of being asked to make a determination of their age.

I understand your desire to absolutely verify every aspect of the Stone Map history and wish you luck. I think that outside of the Tumlinson's themselves, it was Clarence Mitchell, Arthur Meyers and possibly Mason Coggins who knew the most of their history. Several people today are quite knowledgable but they will be the first to admit that many important questions still remain unanswered. Some may never be answered no matter how hard one looks.

I have no interest in the stones myself. I don't know where they lead, who made them or if the Peralta's were ever involved. I have my own opinion as to their origin and authenticity but that is just my opinion. I don't really care what you think about any information I have. All I know about the Stone Maps comes from a very small handful of individuals and I believe what I learned from them and that is good enough for me. You can believe whatever you want and I'm still good with it. I'm sorry about the attacks that are going on and hope you know I have nothing to do with any of them.

Aurum

 

[gollum]

Hey Aurum,

I don't doubt your sincerity in anything you say. Like you, I myself have no personal stake in whether the stones are real or not, other than being nosey! I would also like to straighten things out for posterity.

I thank you very much for your input. It adds another light into the dark parts of the story. The more names and places we have, the easier it is to verify parts of the story. Right now, my Holy Grail is a copy of the test results or the letter of certification given to the FBI and the SEC. The original test results may or may not be of public record (since the tests were performed privately for Mitchell), but the letter of certification used by the FBI and SEC would definitely be in the public record of the case. If the FBI did perform the tests, they would also definitely be public record.

There are some people that ardently believe in the stones authenticity, who argue in public of their fakery. Many people argue their authenticity or fakery based on incomplete or stories not based in fact. It would be nice to have as much of the complete truth out there as possible, so people could argue their sides from a position of fact!

Oh! I almost forgot. The only person whom I have anything with regarding the threat is Ward (until someone else steps forward). That situation may be coming together slowly through some PMs and emails. People keep leaking me little bits of info here and there.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

WARNING another long post by Oroblanco, extra coffee or beer alert - or ignore past this point.

Greetings Friends,

Aurum I did not intend any offense, I have no stake in these stones and have publicly stated my opinion (many times) that I believe they are fakes. I cannot prove who created them, but there are enough reasons/motives we can find as well as several leading suspects. A bit like a crime mystery, no?

You did make one statement I find curious –

I have no interest in the stones myself.

Then why would you have invested your time and efforts in researching them, curiosity? It is not a big point, for that matter I have now invested hours and hours in them and I don’t believe they are genuine so the same argument could be made for me. Some might even suspect that I DO believe in them and am trying to throw others off!

Gollum please do not expend a lot of your time and energy in trying to verify every point in the Peralta Stone legend for the sake of proving it to ME. My opinion does not carry that much weight here or anywhere, and for myself, I would need for someone to use the maps to find one of the legendary lost mines before I can swallow that they are genuine. Finding actual test results is not quite enough for me, in view of the fact that the best experts in the world have been fooled before and more than once; it is extremely difficult to determine the age of inscriptions cut into rock in every case, not just the Peralta stones. Then too, consider what Aurum just stated – the three scholars named, “…while they were all very good at their specific geology fields, they would barely be mentioned in California's top 100.” Does that fill you with confidence in their findings?

To make it even more doubtful, being an expert in geology does not make one an expert in epigraphy! Yet you are comfortable in accepting the statement of these worthy men, who are doubtless scholars, but definitely not the best experts in epigraphy (even within California) as solid enough proof for you to conclude they are genuine, beyond doubt?

I wish to add one more explanation here for my penchant for “homing in” on a single word or brief passage to arouse doubts and suspicions. I tried to point out how even a slight change in the wording can make a measurable difference in meaning. I seem to learn most everything the HARD WAY – the school of hard knocks; and this case is no exception. I may have told you about my disastrous search in the Chuckwallas and nearby hills related to Pegleg’s gold; I went with a partner and spent weeks searching for a stash of some 300 pounds of nuggets left behind by another treasure hunter and never recovered, the key to finding the stash was a dead tree. My friend studied the old reports and I trusted his word as to the clues, and he insisted that we must find a dead Joshua tree so... we tramped all over those hills, moving our camp every three or four days as we had finished searching each area; we saw not only no dead Joshua trees anywhere, but no Joshua trees whatsoever! I was convinced the whole tale was fantasy, and we were pretty disgusted with the source of the tale when we left for home. Not too long after arriving home, I got to re-checking those sources we had used as the basis of our search for the stash of gold nuggets; finally I found the little mention of where the mule had been tied to the dead tree; there was NO MENTION of the dead tree being a JOSHUA tree, it said simply “dead tree”!!! We had seen and passed many dead trees, but not one single Joshua tree was to be found, so we had WASTED WEEKS of time and effort, not to mention the travel expenses, food we ate up etc, all because my partner had, not deliberately of course, mistakenly remembered what the text had said by adding in a SINGLE WORD. This single word, which seems so harmless, took away three weeks of my life (actually more) that I cannot get back so YES I HOME IN ON A SINGLE WORD as it is more important than you seem to realize. I would hope that all fellow treasure hunters would also be studious when researching and make careful note of EXACTLY what those old sources say! It sometimes works to make leaps of logic to arrive at a conclusion that fits the evidence, but NOT good practice to be careless with the meanings of old sources, or you are going to find yourself learning this lesson the same way I did, at least, while folks who are more easily discouraged may well quit treasure hunting altogether when they learn they have wasted precious time on false leads.

Anyway this has been interesting to say the least! I am concluding that you do know something Mike, that you are not willing to say in public. After the threat I can understand why too.

I hope you all have a great day!
Your overly-skeptical friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

“We must find a way, or we will make one.” –Hannibal Barca

 

[Aurum]

Oro,

"I have no interest in the stones myself."

You misinterpret my meaning. If the stones are real or fake it doesn't affect me either way. I have no stake in the outcome. That doesn't mean I am not curious about them. I'm somewhat older than you youngsters so this story is not something I stumbled across one day in a treasure hunter magazine. I grew up with this story, the people, and dozens of others relating to the mountains and the Dutchman mine. My biggest interest in the stone Maps doesn't come from my own research, rather from the research of some old friends who were passionately interested in them. Al Reser, an old Dutch hunter, studied those maps for decades and was writing a book about them when he passed away. Some of the most knowledgeable Stone Map people alive today work from the knowledge and information Al Reser compiled during his lifetime and passed along. Al knew the Tumlinsons, Clarence Mitchell and many of the principles in the story. I sat with Al one night in the bunkhouse out at my ranch while he spread out his topo maps and tried to show me how to follow the directions on the Stone Maps. Try as I might, I just couldn't catch on to what he was telling me. But I did know that Al knew what he was talking about and that was what counted.

In regards to the geologists who analized the maps. I think the part most people miss is, it was not just the weathering of the carved rock, or the lichen growing on it that told the age of the stone carvings. The type of rock was important, and if that rock was present in the area where the carvings were found. if it wasn't, where was that type of rock present. Different types of rock react differently to carving. Some carve cleanly and wear slowly, others carve poorly and weather quickly. It was the palo-geology and art history expertise offered by Redlands University that I believe was the reason for the analysis being done there. The clincher came, I believe , when the question was asked, are there any other examples of this type of rock carving anywhere else in the world, and if so, where, and has it been positively dated, and finally, how does it compare to the Tumlinson's Stone Maps.

Aurum

 

[gollum]

Oro,

"I have no interest in the stones myself."

You misinterpret my meaning. If the stones are real or fake it doesn't affect me either way. I have no stake in the outcome. That doesn't mean I am not curious about them. I'm somewhat older than you youngsters so this story is not something I stumbled across one day in a treasure hunter magazine. I grew up with this story, the people, and dozens of others relating to the mountains and the Dutchman mine. My biggest interest in the stone Maps doesn't come from my own research, rather from the research of some old friends who were passionately interested in them. Al Reser, an old Dutch hunter, studied those maps for decades and was writing a book about them when he passed away. Some of the most knowledgeable Stone Map people alive today work from the knowledge and information Al Reser compiled during his lifetime and passed along. Al knew the Tumlinsons, Clarence Mitchell and many of the principles in the story. I sat with Al one night in the bunkhouse out at my ranch while he spread out his topo maps and tried to show me how to follow the directions on the Stone Maps. Try as I might, I just couldn't catch on to what he was telling me. But I did know that Al knew what he was talking about and that was what counted.

In regards to the geologists who analized the maps. I think the part most people miss is, it was not just the weathering of the carved rock, or the lichen growing on it that told the age of the stone carvings. The type of rock was important, and if that rock was present in the area where the carvings were found. if it wasn't, where was that type of rock present. Different types of rock react differently to carving. Some carve cleanly and wear slowly, others carve poorly and weather quickly. It was the palo-geology and art history expertise offered by Redlands University that I believe was the reason for the analysis being done there. The clincher came, I believe , when the question was asked, are there any other examples of this type of rock carving anywhere else in the world, and if so, where, and has it been positively dated, and finally, how does it compare to the Tumlinson's Stone Maps.

Aurum

Aurum,

I didn't misinterpret you. Your wealth of knowledge says very clearly that you are most definitely curious about them! I think that you and I are pretty close in feelings on the stones.

I just had a new source contact me today with a ton of stones info. None of which he cared to be made public, and I will respect his wishes.

I was also contacted today by a known person in the story. After making his views known, he had a dog and burro shot. Couldn't prove why in a court of law, but the timing was too good.

WOW Thanks Roy for dragging me into all this!

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HEY I like you, you called me a youngster! I AM only thirty nine you know, regardless of what Mrs Oro might show you like birth certificates! (heh heh)

I don't have any problem with someone having interest out of curiosity - that is what drew me in. My problem is that even if they are proven absolutely genuine, there is something wrong which is why the others who have used them failed to find the lost mines. That is why I have fallen all the way to requiring that a lost mine be found with them before I can accept them as good evidence. Aurum you and Gollum have both exhibited talent and ability as a researcher, just my opinion that this talent would serve you better on less controversial evidence. It seems a waste of good talent, in a way, to expend your efforts on these mystery stones which have failed every attempt to prove them by finding a lost mine.

Mike you are not real surprised are you, we are talking about the most famous lost gold mine being involved here are there are some whackos involved. I sure didn't draw you into the Peralta stones, you had a whole thread going before I even mentioned them - I only wished to point out that we ought not depend on them as solid examples of how Mexicans did their numbers in engraved writing in another thread as we just can't prove them genuine beyond all doubt. When I raised objection to the use of the Peralta stones as examples of genuine Mexican writing (the number seven, if memory serves) you rose to the defense of them and we have been debating it ever since, with you defending their validity in every post. You have stated that you are sitting on the the fence in this one (though thankfully you are not a fence-sitter in everything) but what should a reader get out of a string of posts put up defending them as genuine, proposing alternate explanations for each point of doubt raised which will "keep the stones in play" even if that may not be the most logical explanation in every case. I mentioned before that you need not expend a great deal of effort to prove them to me, as I need for someone to find a lost mine, using those stone maps to do it before I can accept them as good evidence. So your reasons for pursuing the final truth here almost has to be some other reason, one I can think of is that you know something that you are not willing to say in public - and considering that the whackos are out there (and can be here too) I don't blame you.

I would love to go and examine the stones up close, to see exactly what type of stone they are - I may not know every type of stone present in the Superstitions but could recognize some, and wonder where the stones originated? If they originated in Mexico, that would seem to lend strong support for their being genuine - if they turned out to be a type of stone found only in the back yard of Barry Strong or what would that hint at? Worse yet, what if it turned out to be a type of stone found only in Oregon! I had not thought about the actual type of stone being a good clue to origin, but it is worth pursuing that angle if you are interested enough, and I will take your word for it if you do regardless of what you should find. It will probably turn out to be some type that is found locally around the Superstitions, which will not strengthen either the case for or against them.

Well off to torment someone else here....
Oroblanco

 

[azmula]

I hear a great deal of historical facts about the stone maps, but I do not see any answers to the following questions. Is there anyone who can clarify these issues for us?

Who produced the maps? (Spanish or Anglo)
When were they produced?
Who was to interpret the maps?
Where did the maps come from?
What is the source of the stone used for the maps?
Why were the stone maps produced?
What is at the end of the maps?

azmula