The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=the blindbowman


if the 240 pack mules was in fact the same list we see that was the jesuit chruch list of the tayopa . they stated the treasure trove was returned for safe keeping . thus we see a link between the tunnle at the my site 4 vs the tayopa it self ....

rememmering that both the tayopa list and the 1959 sighting relate to each other ...

if fact than we can judge the weight and pack mule train size of the tayopa to be very close to that of the 240 pack mule train seen in the superstitions ...




spectfully i stated this as fact IMHO we dont know if the real Tayopa has been found yet where is the prove , where are the large bells with the name on them ...

with respect i state this out side of the respect for realdetayopa 's find ....

this is not stated to be in confect only to ask the questions needed to prove what and where the tayopa is ...
the reason i stated that was ask your self where was the golden bell found and melted ? it was not found near the sierra madre at all . and if they had been sending it from the superstitions to the sea it could have been sent from the superstitions them selfs ...

my point being .let take a good look . do you beleave that there was a vast treasure trove of the jesuits .. yes or no has little to do with it at this point . now lets say yes we beleave they had this size of a treasure . thus no one could move it with out being

not only are they real they point out 18 locations in all only about 4 in the stones known so far . and yes the LDM and IMHO what is the real tayopa is pointed out by the stones ...

these are not facts and this is IMHO what i beleave the stones are and why ...

and with repsect to realdetayopa 's find .
****************

HI my friend Bowman, hmmm a few curious questions, what gold bell was melted down? where? when? the only bells that I ever heard of being melted down were in Hermosillo, a looong ways from the superstitions.

Incidentally do you know how much a small Gold Bell would weigh? Remember Gold weighs 1204 # a cubic ft. It doesn't need a very large Bell to have 1 cu ft of capcity, no burro or mule could carry it, only a cart, but have any carts or their remains ever been found in the superstitions?

As for the Actual bells of Tayopa, yes, of course I know where they are, but will you get me the permission for Mexico City to legally allow me to open the tunnel? If not, they will stay where they are until the permit is delivered into my hot greedy hands.

The 18 mines? I have already posted their locations in the Tayopa lead, go revise it.

Why are the local Jesuits interested in my Tayopa and not the superstitions?

Why was a Jesuit in plain clothes climbing around my Tayopa area when he fell to his death?

Have any Jesuits ever been searching the superstitions? If not, why not? The answer iis obvious.

No my friend, I have Tayopa without a single doubt.

Tropical Tramp

 

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[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Blindbowman posted a number of questions to show why the Peralta stones are real. There are reasons to believe they are frauds.

Father Polzer examined the stones and stated his opinion they were frauds. Polzer was an acknowledged authority with some expertise in local history.

Three experts from Desert Archaeology Inc examined the stones and stated their opinions that the stones were frauds.

The tests done for the FBI (actually as a favor for the SEC in the investigation of MOEL) were inconclusive, as might well be expected considering the level of technology available in the early 1960s) and could not determine the age of the stones.

Look carefully at the words and lettering on the stones - and compare it to known, genuine Mexican and Spanish inscriptions. The writing style is all wrong, not to mention the strange spelling errors. The artwork looks to date to the Depression years.

There is no Peralta on the Peralta stones, this is assumed because of the "Pedro" and "Don" on them. The "Don" could be a clue as to who actually made the stones - look up the Phoenix Dons club some time....

They were not discovered deep in the wilds but right close to a major highway - a good spot to leave a fraud if you want someone to find it.

People have been using these stone "maps" to search for the supposed treasure they lead to ever since their discovery in 1949 without success.

Of course if you wish to use them as clues to follow up, more power to you. I think these stones are leading you down a primrose path.

Tropical Tramp wrote: YOU??

No my friend, I have never had any desire to send people out on wild goose chases; in my opinion the creation of these stones was a very cruel fraud to pull. I could never be that mean. Actually it hurts to know that you would think me capable of such cruelty.

Blindbowman you are sure welcome to believe that Tayopa is not in old Mexico but in the Superstitions, and that the Jesuits were packing humongous trains of treasure into there too, but I am not convinced this is true. In fact from what I could learn, there is no evidence of any Jesuit activity in the Superstitions (though they sure are interested in Tropical Tramp's mines - leading to a mysterious death, er accident right? ) and no evidence of such large scale activity - not prior to the death of Jacob Waltz 1891.

djui5 wrote: but I know where some "wagon wheel ruts" are in the Superstitions.

Hey have you found the Mormon toll road?!! It was supposed to run from Mesa to Picket Post and on to Globe etc but the builders of the road ran out of funds long before finishing the road.

Blindbowman wrote: the stones the maps the dirrection can not stop me and i dont need them any more at this point in the game .. i am a seer , a touchnull .i feel i am am getting closer each time . yet scott keeps saying i am not thats why i dont tell anyone what is really going on ....

no one will ever find the iron door but me ... i saw a trap even i can not get by yet ...yet ...

Then it appears that you have found that the stone maps did not lead you to treasure, as so many have before. Why are you seeking an iron door in the Superstitions? There is a lost mine known as the 'iron door' in the Catalinas, north of Tucson - the iron door has been seen by several persons (who were usually NOT out searching for it but hunting game and not able to return to the correct spot) but I had not ever heard of an iron door in the Superstitions before. We cannot blame Scott for being skeptical - you must consider how many far-fetched claims he must have heard over the years. You mentioned a trap - is it a deadfall? Some deadfalls can be 'tripped' with a crowbar and not risk getting hurt. Just an idea.

Good luck and good hunting,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Randy!
No this was no modern road, it was known as the Globe-Mesa Wagon Road. A group of Mormons were trying to build a toll road in the 1880s and ran out of money long before they finished the road, which was then abandoned - but supposedly you can still find the wheel ruts today. I think Tom Kollenborn wrote an article about it a few years ago. I will contact you PM with the reason as to why I asked.
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

i want say i like it when people talk and dont fight or try to missleed the topic . if they were wagons from the jesuit times they would not have had metal used in them and the wagons could very easyly been burned and all that would remain would be ash piles . is that funny i read some where that there was big fire pits found near the bluff springs area .... thats funny thats not far from where i was looking ...
we would for the most part be looking for donkey carts .. we know the largest bell weight 717 lbs but we do not know if it was cast at location or not . we can asume that it was by one acout of the legend of the tayopa ...

realdetayopa . you stated that your mine was not spelled tayopa ... i hope you do find the bells . but untill than i keep looking ...

if Don .was on the stones .. wait are we talking about don perfecto or a nother Don ,.. dose it matter ? your right it dosent matter . ! and the word pedro only shows up on the horse stone ...point made !and we do not see these words on the peralta -ruth map . in fact we see a D but we only asume the M ...for DM ....

maybe the Pedro horse map is a old pedro mine south of the rio ....i will agree to that ...

fruads . i got to ask all of you here .if you were going to make a fruad of this type would you take the time to make 5 or 7 stones and than throw them out in the medle of no where and hope some year they would be found .. thats just dum .. un logicial to me ...
even crazy people to what feels logicial to them given a unstanding of the why they think and their profile you can think in the pattern they do .. but logic is still logic even if it dose not fit our logic ... a path of thaught if you may ! broken or not ...

i think you better recheck this "They were not discovered deep in the wilds but right close to a major highway - a good spot to leave a fraud if you want someone to find it. ;" there was a map posted that showed where the stones were found and they were not found near the high way it self . they were found just south of the main trail in to coffie flats ...just south of whitlow ... its one of the reasons i beleave the stones were lost from the mule train headed into the superstitions . because it would have been the main .. 108 than crossing coffie flats and than to wiskey springs and than to bluff springs and on ward up needle cayon to secound water and all points north and west and east from there ... even the path to wiskey springs may be step and rough but a donkey could easyly make that trail and in fact when i walked it there was donkey #@!$%#@! on that trail now days lol ...

i did not say the stone maps do not have treasure related data . i only stated its a matter of translation of the stones and what stones are related to these 3 sites ... what parts of the stones go with wich site is a matter of wisdom and translations vs locations of the sites them self ...

let me ask you a question ? .... the person that made the stones knew the heart of the mt's . yet were they talking about a place they called the heart of the mt's or were they talking about what some one else called the mt's location . like the Apaches's heart of the mt's ... ..
i know where the apache heart of the mt's is and the stones do locate the area dirrectly ...

my question is if the heart stone and stone heart inserts are a given area in the superstition mt's and they do point to a given area and the area is a known apache area than why make latin writeing on one insert and not both ...?.. IMHO one was made in simbolics and one was wrote in the hand of the one that made them . thus what was its past and the presents . indain vs jesuit .......!IMHO ...we know the jesuits had contact with spainish and spainish often spoke & wrote what i call broken mexican ...

i am just my self , skilled yes but a expert who knows ... what prefection truely is ...?

.© the blindbowman ,2006

 

[the blindbowman]

on the topic of dick holmes acount . the dutchman stated " i was not a citizen nor had i declared my intentions to become one .... maybe in fact that statement is true . we know he showed up in the cenus over a number of years , but dose that mean he was a citizen of anything more than just being there at the time the cenus was taken .. see my point he may not have been a citizen or may not have known what the cenus was ....maybe he was even mad that they had him in the cenus with out his being a real citizen of the us and not just of the state at the time ...a nother thing i was looking at when rereading this acount was he states ' he shot the 3 mexicans and buried thenm close to there camp .. as i under stand my research the camp is at the stone house in the cave .. if thats the case than i have a idea of the area of those graves as well ....he states hideout or hiden camp or camp .. being anyone of the 3 wordings .. yet one location at the rock house ...

if the dutchman was talking a but a rock with the face on it . and than the rock house ... he was not talking about the peralta -ruth map ... but he was talking about the same place i found and i have both clues located now ... maybe a grub steak at this point would be a good idea ... i guess i will check that out ...

 

[the blindbowman]

what prove is there he was a citizen you may be right . the next thing is why would the dutchman lie about it and is there a nother reason why he lied to dick holmes .. maybe he did it to make people not beleave the acount . thus if dick holmes told others they would think he forced the dutchman to tell him and maybe he did , what is the logic and who's logic do we judge frist .... i had seen the cenus yet i have seen no real prove he was in fact a citizen as yet someone told me he in calf...

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Bob welcome to T-net! Blindbowman posted a number of questions, so this will be a rather long reply - I ask your indulgence.

Blindbowman wrote: if Don .was on the stones ..

The word "DON" appears on the reverse of one of the stones (the "Map" stone):

maybe the Pedro horse map is a old pedro mine south of the rio ....i will agree to that ...

There is a rather famous lost silver mine known as the San Pedro, which would be in what is today Arizona, but well south of the Superstitions.

fruads . i got to ask all of you here .if you were going to make a fruad of this type would you take the time to make 5 or 7 stones and than throw them out in the medle of no where and hope some year they would be found .. thats just dum .. un logicial to me ...

Well it is dumb in my opinion to bother to make fraudulent ANYTHING but who can fathom the reasons why some people will make all kinds of efforts to come up with some kind of fraud? Look at the goof-balls making up "Crop circles" to fool UFO enthusiasts - what in heck can they possibly get out of doing that, other than to destroy part of a grain crop that the poor farmer had to pay to plant (not even counting his expense in machinery, fuel, fertilizer, lime, insect control, weed control, and taxes). I personally would not take the time to make up ONE fake stone map, the very idea is repulsive to me - why would anyone want to cause others to have frustration, fallen hopes, wasted time, effort and expense? I have an idea who is behind these stone maps, and their true reasons for doing it - and yes there is monetary gain involved but not for the poor sucker who tries to use the maps as a key to find treasures.

i think you better recheck this "They were not discovered deep in the wilds but right close to a major highway - a good spot to leave a fraud if you want someone to find it. ;

Okay, I re-checked - the version of how they were discovered by Tumlinson says he had parked his car and was not any great distance from the road. The map you have seen may well not be showing the correct location for where the stones were found, and there is even another version that the stones were stolen from beneath a bed from a mission or church in Arizpe, Sonora. The stones were not deep in the wilds. Here is another map showing where Tumlinson parked when he found the stones:

NOT exactly way out in the sticks!

let me ask you a question ? .... the person that made the stones knew the heart of the mt's . yet were they talking about a place they called the heart of the mt's or were they talking about what some one else called the mt's location . like the Apaches's heart of the mt's ... ..

Well it seems doubtful that it would be an Apache 'heart of the mts' and there is a 'heart' in the Superstitions, on the south side of Black Mountain in LeBarge canyon. A perpetrator of a fraud would certainly know to include such a "clue" and would know that it would cause excitement. Hmm, can you think of anyone who deliberately made up fake stone inscriptions in the Superstitions....hmm?

who knows ... what prefection truely is ...?





my question is if the heart stone and stone heart inserts are a given area in the superstition mt's and they do point to a given area and the area is a known apache area than why make latin writeing on one insert and not both ...?.

I presume you are asking a rhetorical question - think about how a forger would do things to fool people, especially treasure hunters. If you are deliberately trying to mislead treasure hunters, it makes perfect sense.

on the topic of dick holmes acount . the dutchman stated " i was not a citizen nor had i declared my intentions to become one .... maybe in fact that statement is true

If you get a chance, find a copy of "The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold" by Helen Corbin, (wife of former AZ state attorney general Bob Corbin) there is a fascimile of Jacob Waltz's naturalization papers filed in Los Angeles in 1861 in the book along with a great deal of good information. Waltz had applied earlier in New Orleans but did not remain there long enough to obtain his certificate. He was, absolutely, a naturalized US citizen, and had been a citizen thirty years by the time he was on his deathbed. It is one of the strongest clues that the Holmes version is false; another is that Holmes states that Waltz made his last trip to the mine in 1891 or 1892, which was a year after his death. So we know that Waltz was a citizen when he was telling Holmes how to get to the mine, so why the lie? You tell me.

' he shot the 3 mexicans and buried thenm close to there camp ..

If you accept the Holmes manuscript version - however if you do a bit of research, there is a quite different version of how Waltz discovered the mine, read up some of the "Pioneer interviews" - done during the Depression years by WPA workers who went around to all the old folks homes and got oral histories from real pioneers. According to people who lived in Florence in the 1870s, Waltz was a well known person in those parts, and hired a carpenter to build him a portable dry washer to take into the Superstitions. If you have done some prospecting you know immediately why Waltz needed a dry washer - and it was NOT because he was "losing some fine gold" as the Holmes version has it - dry washers are notoriously bad at recovering fine gold. If you think about it a moment, you will not need to go read through those Pioneer Interviews, though they are great reading!

maybe a grub steak at this point would be a good idea ... i guess i will check that out ...

Heck you could probably find some investors here who would not mind investing for a share of your discoveries, just remember to get everything on paper in ink, and it would not hurt to read some grubstake contracts over to see how they are written. Just remember that some states have legal requirements that must be included in all grubstake agreements, such as time restrictions, reporting of assays, exploration journal, accounting, return of un-used monies etc. You probably already know about this end of the 'biz' but if not, you would be expected to keep account of your expenses (should make up a projected expense list for your investors) and some expenses would NOT be alright to use investors monies on, such as entertainment, travel expenses NOT related to the actual explorations - like for instance, it would be okay to include the cost of airline tickets to get to Phoenix, but not okay to include motel rooms for you to stay in while you rest a few days - motel expenses are a tricky part of grubstaking agreements; in general you are expected to be out camping while doing your explorations, but a night or two in a motel while researching BLM mining claim records or perhaps the night you get to AJ would be acceptable - best to discuss this with your grubstake partners and make sure they agree to various expenses, especially reasonable motel costs. As in the past, since you are doing the field work you are not expected to cover much of the expenses, but don't expect your investors to pay for you to have a weekend off, lavish restaurant meals etc unless you want a lot of bickering and even legal problems. I don't think there are any "blank" legal forms available on grubstake agreements, but you might find some in the county courthouse you could copy.

Mrs Oro wrote:
The Dutchman definitely was a citizen - and that is undisputable. I don't know what that means or changes, except that it is obvious that at PART of what Holmes was told was a lie.

Well to me this is a giant red flag, that we must view everything and anything within the Holmes account as questionable, since we KNOW this part is a lie (and there are others!) what else in the Holmes account is a lie, and who or whom lied? Waltz or Holmes? Holmes titles his manuscript as the genuine truth, absolute - so this suggests that the lies might be traced to Waltz, plus we know that Waltz threatened to KILL Dick Holmes if he caught him tracking him again...what does that tell you! On the other hand, despite the fact that the Holmes manuscript says that you should first go to First Water, we know that Dick Holmes hurried NOT to First Water but to Hidden Water, so.....

Still want to lend any credence to the Holmes version? Lets examine some of the points in the Holmes account:

Holmes says you go to First Water, first, yet Dick rushed to Hidden Water first.

Waltz tells Holmes he was not a citizen and did not intend to become one - yet we know he had been a citizen for thirty years.

Holmes has Waltz making his last trip in a period of time that is past his death.

Holmes has a whole colony of Mexicans in the "Peralta" party, including soldiers, women and children, cattle and sheep - yet even at the so-called Massacre Field, there were no children's remains found, nor cattle nor sheep; further there is no proof that any Peraltas were in the Superstitions at all, much less any Jesuits.

Holmes claims that Waltz was a soldier in the Confederate army during the Civil War - well Jacob would have been 53 years old at the outbreak of the war, a bit 'long in the tooth' for a soldier even for the CSA - plus we know he was in Los Angeles in 1861 and in Arizona, but no record of his ever being in the CS states during the war.

Dick Holmes and his son Brownie used the clues given them by Waltz to search for the lost mine for many, many years and never found the mine. Many hundreds of others have also used these "clues" to search for the mine without success.

Djui5 wrote: Maybe Dutchie isn't the liar here....

It is possible that Holmes is deliberately mis-leading his readers, we know that Dick Holmes was a rather shady character (wouldn't say that Brownie was the same way) and we have that clue that instead of going to First Water he went to Hidden Water, however there is reason to think that Waltz lied to Holmes, especially since he had already threatened to kill him and certainly didn't consider him a "friend".

Wow this has gotten pretty long, sorry about that - I hope I have covered all the points raised. Blindbowman I wish you luck in your search and research; I too was at one time a 'believer' in the Holmes version but have since lost faith in his tale. Perhaps you will have better luck than those you used the Peralta stones as "maps" or those who believed in Holmes story, at a minimum you will sure be in some pretty country and get great exercise. Besides, finding where some treasure is NOT is making progress, it allows you to rule out a particular spot or area.

It seems I am tilting at windmills here - the skeptics are not going to believe, while the true believers are going to believe regardless of what is debated here. I hope no one takes anything personal that I have said, if so my apologies no offense was intended. Good luck and good hunting to you all....
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Well that makes 5 of them in there.

What a surprise - and since the creator of the hearts is almost certainly the same that made the Spanish heiroglyphics, all we need to do now is to study the Spanish heiroglyphics and we will have found the treasure.......
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Peeps:

LOST DUTCHMAN


Tom McDonald used photography to blow the Lost Dutchman Mine myth to hell a few years ago, and it is unfortunate that he did not publish this entire record with all of the wonderful photographs in book form. Tom is a total disbeliever of the Lost Dutchman myth, as am I, and to prove to himself, as much as to anybody else, that it was a myth, he armed himself with a couple cameras, a tripod, some grub, his bedroll, and a .21. pistol for snakes, and set forth into the Superstitions. You can understand this was quite a fete of bravado considering the fact that hundreds of people have allegedly been murdered in these famous Superstitions without a single felon ever being brought to trial. Anyway, Tom sallied forth into the fearful mountains and spent two weeks photographing the entire area around the Weaver's Needle without having anybody take a shot at him. He met and visited with several parties of prospectors and


188


vacationers (probably looking for the old Dutchman's bonanza), and none of them had reported any trouble or any unusual incidents.

Anyway, Tom got his pictures and when they were processed, the prints were closely analyzed and then compared with the many myths and legends that have been written and printed in the past 25 years. In no instance did any of the books precisely lel>o't the terrain, the geology, or other conditions in a manner which would correspond with Tom's photographs. Some inter esting facts were evolved or revealed in this project. The photographs in one popular book had obviously been retouched to match the fictional exploits of its author. Photographs in another book were obviously of such poor quality that they 'apparently' substantiated misleading facts as reported therein. A pamphlet dealing with the Lost Dutchman myth contained a photograph of the Weaver's Needle which indicated the author had either taken the photograph several thousand years ago before nature had reduced the Superstitions or else the Needle had been transposed to a photograph with an Alpine background.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Hola Jose,

You are welcome to your opinions as to the veracity of the Lost Dutchman Mine, but please don't forget to add some well known and proven facts regarding it into your equations:

Records show that Jacob Waltz transported hundreds of thousands of dollars of refined gold from the assayer and smelter in Northern California. He also sent most of that money to his family in Germany. He is known to have (by necessity) paid for many items with raw gold ore. He was known to have deposited a lot of raw gold into a Wells Fargo Account at the General Store. He took the scripts from that, and gave most of them to Julia Thomas (Jacob Waltz basically paid for her Ice Cream Shop).

SO......if Waltz didn't have a rich gold mine, where did he get all the raw gold ore from? That basically leaves two choices:

1. He high graded it (stole it) from a working mine. This isn't possible, due to the fact that his gold is geologically different from the gold ore from any other known mine in the area.

2. He found a pre-existing cache of gold ore. Possible, but to whom could it have belonged? Who would have mined all that gold, cached it somewhere, then left it there forever until Waltz found it? Jesuits? Not likely. Sorry BlindBowman, Kino never went further North than the Gila River. He did go a ways up the Colorado to prove that California was not an island, but he never went into the area of the Superstitions. The closest any Spaniard ever came to the Supers was Coronado, but he headed NorthEast after passing where Nogales is today. He went North to the area just South of present day Gallup, NM. From there, he sent expeditions East into Kansas, and West to the Grand Canyon (far North of the Supers). He was looking for gold and the Seven Cities of Cibola, but was sorely disappointed at finding neither. Since he found no gold, it is not likely that the Dutchman's Cache was from Coronado. The third and final Spaniard that could have possibly found and cached gold ore in the Supers for Waltz to have found, was a Friar Marcos. He was the source of the stories of great Indian Cities, and the Seven Golden Cities of Cibola. He brought back no gold, and all his stories turned out to be lies, so I highly doubt Waltz's cache would be his. Who is now left? The Peraltas. To believe in this possibility, you have to believe in the mid 1800s Peralta Massacre Story. I for one, do believe that story.

Now, you are down to two plausible sources for all the gold that Waltz was known to have:

1. His own mine

2. A mine cache of the Peraltas or someone else who was killed before being able to get their ore.

Which is the MOST plausible? I think it is fairly easy to figure that Waltz had his own gold mine.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[the blindbowman
realdetayopa . you stated that your mine was not spelled tayopa ... i hope you do find the bells . but untill than i keep looking ...

**********
You cotton picking right you should keep looking.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[djui5 link=] TT, not trying to undermine you or anything, but I know where some "wagon wheel ruts" are in the Superstitions. .
***********
You just blew the map to La Tarasca djui sniff. heheheeh

Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=mrs.oroblanco
Interesting - why did he spend 2 weeks at Weaver's Needle in particular?
Of course, we have spent quite a bit of time up in the Super's, in several different places, and we never got shot at either.

**************
Hi Beth love (shaddup ORO) that is just a reprint, I have no idea, just stoking the fire snicker.

Tropical Tramp

B
[/quote]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=gollum Hola Jose,You are welcome to your opinions as to the veracity of the Lost Dutchman Mine, but please don't forget to add some well known and proven facts regarding it into your equations:
***********
Twern't mine, just a reprint to stoke the fires. snicker.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. His own mine 2. A mine cache of the Peraltas or someone else who was killed before being able to get their ore.Mike
*************
Neither, he hijacked my mine ! So all of the Gold in the superstitions belongs to ME! So keep yer cottin pickin hands off of it, howeve I will give you a finders fee heehehehehehh

Tropical (Reaves) Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

[the blindbowman
realdetayopa . you stated that your mine was not spelled tayopa ... i hope you do find the bells . but untill than i keep looking ...

**********
You cotton picking right you should keep looking.

Tropical Tramp

no i stated that it was speeled Tayopa . and i beleave it is the tunnle found in 1959 . why anyone with any logic would have know it a few trips into the mt's there are only two main trails out of the mt's to the south west. one is that of the trail 104 & outer coffie flats to the south east . if you dont remember i can post pictures of all the trail sign all the way around that 104 trail . the secound is 235 & 102 / the trail 102 my go more north but dose in fact exist the mts at the peralta trail head and the same goes for carney springs trailhead ,, so we are in fact looking at to main passable exists out of the mts in the dirrection of south west ...

if thats the case we know that 104 is passable by donkey yet peralta trail is not ,maybe with one donkey not no mule train of 240 ...and logic tells me if they were takeing the carney springs trail they would pass threw the massacre grounds . but think about it that dosent make sense . why because if the indains try to catch thenm and kill them why head north . that would be totally dum .that means that north was the only way they could go . why because thats the way the indain drove them . deeper into a cayon where they had them traped .... so if they drove them north and had to have time to set up a massacre and had to know thats the way they would go . the only way to do that is to flush them and drive them in the dirrection they wanted to drive them . see you our all looking at it backwards , maybe the massacre ground maybe be one of the bigist evidence in the legend ... if the indains flushed them they could not exscape south and out the peralta trail head pass . and the only other way out of that cayon system is to drop down into the peralta cayon and than they would have drove them north its the only way to get away from the indains at peralta trail head pass . they drove them north up west boulder cayon . guess where that ends , you got it . the massacre grounds .its some 5 miles away from my 5 sites and by that time the houses and men would have been so weak they could pick them off and they could not go west because high mt's and same to the east other than a few other dead end cayons along that path north .than parkers pass or old west boulders cayon . so ask your self this if . i am right why not just take one of the cayons out of west boulderd cayon ..... you got it they could not get past the indains ,. so the indains knew where they would go because they were in fact driveing them that way .. thats means they were going north west up the west boulderd cayon ...well if they could not go north or south or east they could only go west and than north west . thats funny thats just what they did .. and why dose that sense easy if the people massacred at the massacre ground were the same people i said they were than the tell told about the indains flushing the jesuits and the spainish out of the tayopa would infact be true by the evidence we are seeing here ...

if i flushed you out and to the west to peralta cayon and than north you would in fact end up at the massacre growns ..and no they could not have gone east , not unless could fly ! lol ...the indains closed off the north and the south and the east was to steep to climb . the only way out was west over land with no trails .you guys that have been in the mts no what i am saying , they didnt have a chance after leaveing the main trails ..the indains knew it ..so do i ...

the point i am trying to make is even if the logic dose not look normal to most would it look or make sense if we were in their shoes . yes it would . and yes it dose ... and the evidence dose agree ... so if that dose make sense than the tunnle i found is in fact the Tayopa they were talking about ...i dont think it was some big chruch or town . it was a tunnle mine . a large tunnle mine system ...made where a cave system was . a indain cave or scared place ...i think all the skeletons are in the tunnle system were the indains put them . if thats is the case than the massacre grounds could be that of spainsih maybe some mexican's like the peralta families and yes could have had some jesuits there as well .
may the peralta had nothing to do with the site at all . remember the legend stated the indains flushed the spainish and killed them and the jesuits ...never said anything about any peralta ...

they coverd everything up but the logic of their own actions ...

i said IMHO it is the tayopa , i still beleave i can and will prove it is the tayopa ...

it may not be what you have found real de tayopa but it will be the Tayopa and it should still have the bells in the tunnle..

the tunnle is not where the peralta ruth map showed it , but it dose leed to where it is ... what looks simple is very complex and looks can be decieveing as well ,,....

you dont beleave me .lol ok look at what happens if they took 234 terrapin trail or trail 102 boulder cayon you got it , they may in fact pass weavers needle but, they would have come out near palomino mt not any where near the massacre grounds ... thats my point the evidence dose in fact support my clames .

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Tropical Tramp wrote: Tom is a total disbeliever of the Lost Dutchman myth, as am I, and to prove to himself, as much as to anybody else, that it was a myth, he armed himself with a couple cameras, a tripod, some grub, his bedroll, and a .21. pistol for snakes, and set forth into the Superstitions.

Hello my friend Joseph - on this point we disagree, but you are welcome to your view and have plenty of company. There are folks who don't even believe Jacob Waltz existed, or that his ore came from the Vulture mine, supposedly stolen while he worked there (no record of his ever working there) or the Bulldog or Mammoth or Black Queen and several other mines. In a way this LDM legend and the associated legends are a bit like the Pyramids in Egypt; as the head of Egyptology (can't recall his name offhand) you could invent a myth and find five "proofs" in the Pyramids to prove it.

Gollum wrote: Now, you are down to two plausible sources for all the gold that Waltz was known to have:

1. His own mine

2. A mine cache of the Peraltas or someone else who was killed before being able to get their ore.

Which is the MOST plausible? I think it is fairly easy to figure that Waltz had his own gold mine.

I agree, and there are hints that Waltz prospected for and found his mine if one does a bit of 'diggin' into old records; for example why would he have had need of a small, portable dry-washer, if not for prospecting? The excuse given in the Holmes account is that he was "losing some fine gold" but that is ridiculous, because dry washers are notoriously bad at catching the fine gold (dust). Why should he have cared about losing some fine gold dust with all the rich ore anyway? No, it makes sense only when he needed that dry washer because he was using it as a prospecting tool to find a gold deposit.

Blindbowman, not going to re-post your entire message, an interesting theory though. Why do you suspect your find is "the" Tayopa so strongly? I don't think it is a good idea to work off a difference in spelling - in the old archives you are likely to find "Tayopa" spelled at least eight different ways!!! There are over 200 documented, lost Spanish and/or Mexican mines in what is today Arizona, only a handful located today - why couldn't what you found, be one of those other lost mines, especially when Tropical Tramp can present a terrific case to prove that what he found is in fact the famous lost Tayopa, and his location (which he owns) will fit with virtually every key indicator - including being well south in Mexico? (Just gave me an idea - there is a list of them somewhere!) Did you find some inscription or something else that makes you think it must be Tayopa? Did you find one of the famous lost silver bells? I know of one of the silver bells being found, and it was not near the mines (yes mines - Tayopa included eighteen mines in all if memory serves) so if you found one of the silver bells inscribed Tayopa or Tayope or Taiopa or several other spellings, it is not necessarily a clue that it has to be on the location of the Tayopa mine(s). The many canyons of the Superstitions were great for ambuscades, as the Pimas, Mexicans and later Anglos were well aware. It would be possible to entrap victims in at least several of the canyons without too much effort.

Djui (Randy) wrote: Dutchie had a mine in the Supers Nuff said

Yep - the trick is in finding that danged hole in the ground again! (sniff)

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

" ... SO......if Waltz didn't have a rich gold mine, where did he get all the raw gold ore from? That basically leaves two choices:

1. He high graded it (stole it) from a working mine. This isn't possible, due to the fact that his gold is geologically different from the gold ore from any other known mine in the area. ..." Actually, Mike, this is indeed a possibility. High grading picture rock has always been a tradition in hard rock mining. I even participated myself in Colorado in the '70's. Half gold/half quartz ripe for the picking in narrow stringers is quite a temptation (the company 'allowed it' in those days, otherwise they couldn't have kept a work force to mine the massive surfide veins which was the primary function of the operation). I've seen at least one garage with, say, 20 pounds of high grade ore sitting in a box. Incidentally, this was when gold was illegal to own (pre-1974) and therefore was sold to a Red Chinese agent who routinely made the rounds a couple times a year. Waltz' tale of an impossible-to-locate mine in the Superstitions could well have been a cover for thievery, which was not winked at in mines where recovery of free-milling gold was the game. The oft-repeated statement about the unique property's of Waltz' ore is totally irrelevent, IMO - just another sound bite that is now accepted as fact. Can you verify the veracity and completeness of these 'comparisons'?

" ... 2. He found a pre-existing cache of gold ore. Possible, but to whom could it have belonged? Who would have mined all that gold, cached it somewhere, then left it there forever until Waltz found it? Jesuits? Not likely. Sorry BlindBowman, Kino never went further North than the Gila River. He did go a ways up the Colorado to prove that California was not an island, but he never went into the area of the Superstitions. The closest any Spaniard ever came to the Supers was Coronado, but he headed NorthEast after passing where Nogales is today. He went North to the area just South of present day Gallup, NM. From there, he sent expeditions East into Kansas, and West to the Grand Canyon (far North of the Supers). He was looking for gold and the Seven Cities of Cibola, but was sorely disappointed at finding neither. Since he found no gold, it is not likely that the Dutchman's Cache was from Coronado. The third and final Spaniard that could have possibly found and cached gold ore in the Supers for Waltz to have found, was a Friar Marcos. He was the source of the stories of great Indian Cities, and the Seven Golden Cities of Cibola. He brought back no gold, and all his stories turned out to be lies, so I highly doubt Waltz's cache would be his. Who is now left? The Peraltas. To believe in this possibility, you have to believe in the mid 1800s Peralta Massacre Story. I for one, do believe that story. ..." Yes, he could have discovered a cache somewhere in the greater Phoenix vicinity. If so, he certainly wouldn't have given reliable clues as to it's location (his 'mine'). Whose cache? Could have been anyone's. You can rule out Coronado and Marcos de Niza for sure - de Niza's game was in New Mexico and Coronado was his dupe. I wouldn't rule out the Jesuits necessarily - they were certainly within easy access to the venue despite the lacking 'documentation' of their activities. Could have been someone else - anybody.

A third possibility is that Waltz was a sentinel for a group in possession of great wealth in the vicinity and that his story and activities were engineered to disinform the public and at the same time assure that the prize remain secure. Bob Brewer of course is the most visible pitch man for this idea - more can be found in his book (book, eh? Hmmm). If this idea has legs, then one must assume there are still 'sentinels' who are guarding the loot and disinforming the public as to it's nature and it's location. Bottom line - lots of people claim to know where Waltz' gold came from but nobody has proven a thing.

 

[the blindbowman]

keep beleaveing that Kino did reach the tunnle in the supersititions ....do you under stand what is happeing and what has happend in the past, if it is the Tayopa ..


think about it .. i dont have to, i know ...


is it the tayopa ? . it is the tunnle in the peralta -ruth map .... fact !

it is the tunnle on the peralta stones ...fact .!

have i found the LDM..... yes !

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=the blindbowman link=.!have i found the LDM..... yes !
***************
Keep believing that bowman, without it one can never succeed. confdence is essential. There are many that even today refuse to believe that I have Tayopa,

Sometimes I wonder myself, why me?. I must admit that I somtimes feel that I am simply a tool. If so what is the final purpose ? We shall see.

Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

i a so much to do it is all most over welming , i got like 40 list that are pages long and equipment detales over flowing in my head lol . i got a eletrision speacal with 20 years behide him asking me the quad computer to do what he wants . i ask him who do i look like lol .. this could be the funnist trip i have ever been on or its going to come togather and be a all out blast ...

i got one guy reading data on how to use a peice of equipment and he dosent even know what it dose yet ...

its funny and sad at the same time ! lol


our new com center has a quad cpu system at over 10 ghz with 30" screen and the next one that says holly shi- is getting pushed out the door .. they stand around watching like they never saw a computer like it . but the sat internet wont be ready for a week or so ...

ya i spent to much , but i cant spend it when i am dead ...lol


and every time we try to add things to the new com it crashes lol ..
or puts the data some where we havent found yet ! lol


we have two new types of optics we have never used before and geting one of the peices of equipment to work with the laptop is a night mare ...lol . it dosent really matter yet we havent found out how to change the data into a graphable picture yet ! lol . if we did we ant sure we would know at the time ...lol

this is why i love the hunt ...

find it who cares this is going to be a great event ether way ...


we will get it all togather by next fall lol ...