The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Bowman, I follow and understand your reasoning and data, fascinating. Obviously you have been exposed to navigation and have a fertile imagination, both are needed in solving the Dutchman enigma.

Next question, are they genuine? More important, Do they ACTUALLY lead to lost mines and buried treasure, that remains to be seen.

Tropical Tramp

 

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[Oroblanco]

Hey even if the stones are proven to be fakes, it has been quite an interesting pursuit. If they are genuine (which I still doubt highly) I think it is possible they might not be related to the Superstitions (despite the overlay done comparing it to the florence quadrangle) because of the church symbol.

Anyone ever connect the stones to the Perilla treasure? (No I didn't just mis-spell Peralta, this is something quite different.)

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Randy!
The Perilla treasure is quite a story - it originates with a Spanish brig named the Isabella Catolica that was wrecked in a storm Mar 29 1682. I don't know of any info on this online, read about it in a book titled Lost Mines and Hidden Treasures by Leland Lovelace. The captain (Arroa) went inland to a high mountain and found placer gold, and accumulated a quantity {equal to $800,000 in 1874 when the lawsuit came to San Deigo court (CA)} before hostile Indios drove off the Spanish. The lawsuit mentioned, involving one Pedro Perilla, forced the litigants to admit the location of where the cache of placer gold is located, not precisely of course but in the general region of the Superstitions. Of course other treasure hunters are convinced the gold is in the Superstitions of California, others have searched in the Cocopah range in AZ but the court case (involving Pedro Perilla) clearly placed it in AZ Superstitions and definitely south of the Gila (for those who say the Supers included mountains on the north side). If it were related, the date 1847 is then likely a date but having nothing to do with any Peraltas. A cache of 40,000 ounces of placer gold would be worth how much today? $24 million + or -?

If they are genuine, I would not be surprised if the "Pedro" on the horse map is in direct reference to Pedro Perilla, a real Mexican treasure hunter/prospector who did operate in the region in the correct period, and not to any Pedro Peralta; in fact Perilla might be the source of some of the "Peralta" legends, for the names sound fairly similar to Anglo ears and seems like a possible mistake.

Oroblanco

 

[JScottWood]

Guys,
I just waded through all of your heady discussion on the reality of the "Peralta" Stones and reached a conclusion of my own - y'all don't need me around as long as you have oroblanco! The only argument you missed was the one having to do with the nature of the stones themselves. That's a little hard to tell from photos, but I've seen them and they are made from a kind of sandstone that's not found any closer to the Superstitions than about 100 miles to the north.....

I won't repeat Roys arguments (all of which I have used in the past) but I will say this - he's right, they are fake (I've seen better three dollar bills), and Mike, you need to be a little less "gollum-ible" when it comes to those things (sorry, but how could I pass up a pun like that...)
Scott

 

[gollum]

Hey Scott,

I'm not in the least Gollumable. If you have waded through ALL the posts about the stone maps, you should have seen that I am one of about three or four people in the world, who has taken the time and effort to call, email, and snail mail every government agency, and individual who had anything "officially" to do with them since 1949.

See, I don't have a horse in that race. I am not averse to coming to the conclusion that they are fakes. Have you spoken with anyone at the SEC who knows about the MOEL Inc. Case? Have you corresponded with Jane Dana (the widow of the former head of the Geology Dept at Redlands University who supposedly tested the stones in the early 1960s, and provided a signed affidavit to the FBI regarding his conclusions for the MOEL Case)? Have you spoken to a research archivist at the U of A's Roger's School of Law? I have done all those things and much more. What conclusions I have come to so far, have NOTHING to do with gullibility or any of the many tall tales that surround them.

Oh, by the way, do you have any pictures of the cement vault in LaBarge Canyon (not caliche but modern cement)? Does the phrase "1983 Peralta Mines" ring a bell? See,like I said, I am not averse to saying they are fakes, if that's where the evidence leads. I'm also not averse to saying they are authentic (if that's where the evidence leads). As of now, any and all evidence I have gotten, points to them being "at least 100 years old" as of about 1964. Now, even if they are shown to be of mid 1800s or earlier manufacture, does that mean they are authentic treasure maps? NOPE! All it shows is that they were made sometime before the mid 1800s. That still leaves the possibility of the Peralta Reavis Land Grant Fraud. Could have been made for that, and ditched to hide evidence.

So, don't think me the least bit gullible. I'm not. Based on the research I have done so far, I believe them to be made sometime before the mid 1800s. Authentic Treasure Maps? No idea!

I know you must have seen and heard every crackpot idea and theory out there, considering what you do, and where you do it. I am certain that experience has jaded your thoughts on much concerning the LDM and the Stone Maps. I am interested in hearing your thoughts as to whom you think made them.

Since you are certain they are fakes, maybe you can explain why, when the SEC was investigating MOEL Inc. regarding them selling unregistered stocks, they asked the FBI to have the stones examined. What we know for certain is that the FBI returned the stones to Clarence Mitchell before the trial started (it was only one day anyway). I'm sure that if the stones could have been proven to be fakes, a charge of fraud would have been added to the unlicensed stock sales charge, but that never happened.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Allo Gollum: my theory is basically quite simple, since you are ALWAYS wrong! I simply say no whenever you say yes, and vice versa. A no lose situation for me. heheehehehehehehehehehh

The gentlemen are quite happy with the Escondida. We apparently have an option agreement. They are also very interested in the other mineral projects that I have. Fortunately for our mutual friend Scott , they aren't within his jurisdiction . This leaves him free to err ahh eh discuss things with Bowman\Taz

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Hola Jose,

I have noticed that seem to take an automatic contrarian position to whatever I say, so let's try this:

"I think Jose is an intelligent, and VERY heterosexual man!" Your comments senor?

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sheesh, how easily you converted me. You "are'" aways right. this latest bit of observation just proves this without any possibility of dissent.

Incidentally, the geologist found a vein that we missed that has 80 grams of Au, unfortunately it is only 6 " wide hehehe.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

80 grams per ton or 80 grams in weight?

OH well, you made the deal anyway. That's the important part!

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hio Gollum

80 grams per ton. 80 x $21 per gram for absolute total recovery (never happens, nor is Gold ever found in a pure state) = $1600 US per ton .

A working width of 5 ft = 60 inches / 6 = 10 constant.

$1600 / 10 equals $160 US. X 70% = $120 a ton probable/possible value after working the vein. Still quite acceptable.

Remember the main vein structure from the surface to the lowest level averages 34 grams. Au. , this plus the other recoverable metals is well over $1000 US ton.- and only 500 meters from a paved road with hi-power lines..

Purchase option price has not been agreed upon yet, that depends upon the assay samples they took back to Canada. They are enthusiastic on my other mines and the two placers, They definitely want more data on Tayopa, but I am hesitant there since I will be able to handle it myself later.

When I am filthy rich (?) I may deign to finally cleanup the Superstition fiasco, even meet Scott and you other gentlemen..

Once they sign an Option to purchase, I start to receive $$. When they finish their feasibility studies, We will sit down to see if I have a retirement fund coming. That is when I will use your advice gentlemen..

They will have to set up a Mexican subsidiary company, meet enviormental, archaeological, and social studies, before they can start building and mining.

Eventually, say in a year, if lucky, they might start limited mining. Since I will have a cash settlement, plus stock and Royalties, it is in my interest to help them into production, even heaven forbid, actually wor-!.

However, there is a huge difference between a hen scratching out a nest and a fried egg.

Tropical Tramp El Saint

p.s. Tayopa definitely proves that the Jesuits did indeed mine , but not in the Superstitions.

Sorry for the deviation from the Stones, but if this goes through successfully, I will dedicate an effort to solve the puzzle.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gracias Beth mi amor, definitely.. I will only give them 3 years to buy, and that is based upon an active development program. Meanwhile, they are paying me for potential lost revenue and I am prohibited from presenting it to another sheehs the durn thing has been sitting there for years heeheh.

In any event the state and federal gov't have indicated that they are willing to advance me credit and tech advice in order to open it up and put it into production in order to create jobs and revenue.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

I wish you good luck on the entire venture!!
DITTO Joseph, I hope it will all work out for you. I see no reason why it should not. The friend Mrs Oro mentioned had a good mine prospect, got a signed deal with a major mining company and thought he was all set to start collecting royalty checks; however they had written the contract with an open-end, so left him waiting for nearly twenty years! He passed away without ever receiving one cent from his contract, the mining company waited until he was dead before they even bothered to do any of the agreed-on test drilling for core samples.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

What is the reward for turning in someone that is defacing and stealing our National & Archaeological resources? Split with you Scott.

Tropical Tramp

p.s. If you find the loot, I will keep mum Djui , IF, you split with me! hehehe

 

[Zephyr]

Hi!
Just tossing a few of my thoughts on the stone maps in here. (Sorry if I cover anything that has already been discussed.)

Looking at them from a different perspective (literally), they don't strike me as being based on aerial or surveying map views (i.e. viewed from above.) If in fact that is how the landmarks on the maps are represented, then (IMO) there is a very good chance that the maps are indeed fakes. However...

One thing I noticed about the "lower" map (the one without the heart) is that the long "river" running across the bottom third appears to be a skyline (if for example you were looking toward distant mountains.) The ^^^ ^^ ^^^'s below could be foothills (no idea what the box could be) viewed from ground level, and the arrow points toward the (mountain?) peak the trail starts from. Notice that the snaky line with the holes drilled at intervals starts on the "skyline" and leads "down" to the other side. The various ^^^'s are again foothills or other landmark features that can be seen from the path. The holes may indicate where the person is to take bearings on the landmarks. The path then leads to the upper ("heart") map...

For the upper map, the "river" line running across the top is again a skyline, with the landmark features (which would be seen *below* the skyline) as viewed from ground level. As to what part the (missing?) heart stone played, no idea. (For conjecture's sake, I believe the dagger points "north" and that the hole next to it may be for placing a rod or stick to act as the gnomon of a sundial. I may be getting into "Raiders of the Lost Ark" territory there, so I'll quit while I'm ahead.

I haven't looked at the other stones too closely, so can't comment on them. One possibility (if the maps are fake) is that someone on the crew building the road could have placed them there (if that is the place the stone maps were truly found.) Going with the "aerial view" perspective, the person who made the "maps" probably had access to maps or surveys while the road was being constructed through the area.

Oh well, enough turmoil caused for one night....

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Zephyr and everyone,

First, welcome to Treasurenet Zephyr, if no one else has yet said it - and welcome to the debate over the Peralta stones!

Zephyr wrote:
For conjecture's sake, I believe the dagger points "north" and that the hole next to it may be for placing a rod or stick to act as the gnomon of a sundial

An interesting idea, and if the dagger is intended to be a compass indicator, it is likely to be one of the cardinal points (N, S, E or W) with North being the logical choice; if this is true, the next question is exactly how long is the rod supposed to be, and on what day of the year is the sundial to be used? The reason I mention this is that if the shadow of a gnomon (the inserted rod) is intended to indicate a spot on the map, (the hidden location of a mine or treasure) the length of the shadow is critical - and to make this even more difficult it is a fact that the length of shadows changes over the year - longer in winter, shorter in summer. Unless we could learn the correct length of rod to use, and on what day of the year to use it, the maps would be useless.


Thanks Zephyr for posting, and don't worry about re-covering some ground that might have been already, many times new information or a new idea can change or impact formerly "concluded" issues.
Oroblanco

 

[Blazer]

Zepher,

I agree with your thoughts about the landmarks being what would be visable from ground level. If if a logical person believes that the maps are genuine articles 100 or more years old I don't know how he could arrive at any other conclusion. The only thing I can see on the first trail map (the bottom that has the beginning of the trail on it) that I think I can identify with any level of confidence is the main Superstition Mountain (just below and to the left of the big hole cut into the stone) as viewed from the south as it would be seen along the trail coming up from Mexico. Since the trail starts south and east of that mountain, I would place the starting point somewhere in Barks valley. I have stood in that valley looking north and observed that the skyline of the mountain range directly north of Barks valley resembles (from some perspectives) the shape of the line that some people take to be the Gila River. If as I suspect that is what it is, then the trail into the mountains would begin somewhere near the Peralta trailhead and go right up past Miner's Needle.

Someday, I would like to enter the mountains from that point with photos of the stones in hand and follow the existing trail while observing the skyline from the trail to see if any other ground level views match up with what is depicted on the stones. If someone has already done that, you could save me a lot of time if you would tell me what you observed.

Blazer

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO ZEPHR: Excellent thinking, now get to crackng on the "X" spot. Collectively we will agree to let you split it with us after Scott has his turn.

Tropical Tramp

 

[the blindbowman]

we did find the place where the peralta _ ruth map was made from ...

it was not where we thaught it was ..

but yes the mts are all in one photo and look the same way ....

but the photo was taken from a hard place to get to .. a climb i dont welcome again ....

and yes the knife points north ...

has anyone try to under stand what would happen if you mirror the image and than go to the opsitie side of the photo in the mt's ? we did ...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Rght on Bowman the Jesuits did that often. I believe that this was suggested in one of the original posts.


Toprical Tramp

 

[Zephyr]

HIO ZEPHR: Excellent thinking, now get to crackng on the "X" spot. Collectively we will agree to let you split it with us after Scott has his turn.

Tropical Tramp

IF my ideas helped find anything, getting some credit for it would be nice.

As for the "X" spot, I believe that the "map" would lead to another marker at the end point of the trail, and that's where the heart-shaped stone would come into play. So until someone finds something there... (The recess on the stone map is just to hold it IMO. If in fact the stones were found by the side of the road, is it possible the heart stone was overlooked? (Such as being buried a little deeper or off to the side somewhere.) I sense shovels being thrown into the backs of SUV's and peeling out as this is being read...

In hindsight, the gnomon idea is probably unworkable. But putting a stick in the hole, with a string attached, stretching the string to other map features and then marking the halfway points might be an interesting exercise, (though what purpose that would serve is beyond me if the "end of the trail marker" above applies.) Then again, it just might be a hole in the stone too.

Sorry, my mind flies around all over the place. Once my imagination gets going it gets pretty hard to stop. Then again, I often see little things that go unnoticed. Good thing I don't live in that area of the country or I'd be going cRazY...