The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Oroblanco]

Hi Mike,
Did you read my lengthy post? The two photos at the bottom ARE man-made, they are called Inukshuk; they are found all over the far north as trail markers NEAR villages (usually) and in the southwest as Coyote scarecrows, very like the Jackal scares of the Mid-east. I have to use stock photos, as I have not bothered to take photos of natural formations.

I can't believe that the Spaniards or Mexicans or anyone in the southwest bothered to make whole mountains into "markers" of any kind. Think of the "Old Man of the Mountain" of New Hampshire which lately fell off:

Think someone clambered over the side of the mountain to "make" it? Hardly! It is just a natural formation.

Compare it to Mount Rushmore:

I have a little personal rule when it comes to stone formations - if you have to squint a little to "see it" then it is most likely natural.

So I guess we disagree on many stone formations - of course if I am wrong, then Mike will find the treasures and have the last laugh!

Oroblanco

 

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[gollum]

Hey Oro,

I read it. Just got tunnel vision while typing.

I will say this again. Just because it is a man made formation, does not mean it is a treasure/cache trail monument. Many monuments were made to show trails, permanent campsites, permanent water, etc. What you picture are all in developed places (cities, etc), where skilled engravers were used. I have yet to see a trail monument that was well made (in the classical sense). The best one I have seen is my 50 foot heart.

And yes, your rule about rock formations is absolutely incorrect. Especially about mine/cache trails. In the field, if you ever get serious about finding Spanish/Mexican Mines, you will find that the closer you get to the end of the trail, the smaller and more obtuse the markers become.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again Mike,
You are saying very much the same words about the size of signs to old Spanish mines being smaller and quite un-noticeable, some time ago. A natural formation can and likely IS included in a 'waybill' IF it works out well for a trail.

What you picture are all in developed places (cities, etc), where skilled engravers were used.

No, quite the contrary - the Inukshuk are all OUT of villages where an approaching party could see them from a distance and find the way to the villages; Mount Rushmore is accessible NOW but not when it was being sculpted, and in fact you still have to hike to get up to it, close enough to touch. Jackal scares and coyote scares are also not built close to roads etc but out on the fringes of pastures.

How about this one? would you say this is natural or man made?

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Oro,

Regarding your rule about monuments:

Say, you were wanting to hide a cache of gold or silver in an area where there were no accurate maps. You live several hundred miles away. In order to get a permit to run a mine, you were required to monument ALL the trails into and out of your mine. You were required to file copies of maps of all those trails and monuments at one of four places (Madrid, Santa Fe, Mexico City, or Acapulco). So, you HAD to file maps to your mines, but do you want to monument the way to them with easy to spot art pieces? I think not. You would want (need) to make your maps accurate, but you would not want anybody else to be able to see your trails. That means that you would make your trail markers crudely, and hard to see by anybody who didn't have either the maps or you with them.

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

At first blush, I would say that the formation in your pic is natural. I would also want to know if there were any other odd formations in the area.

As far as utilizing natural formations; it all depends on when the monuments were made. If it was from 1743 until 1812 or so, the types of monuments you could use were determined by the King of Spain. I think we already went through this. I typed about an hour what was required by the King in order to get a mining grant from Spain. Very few natural formations would qualify. There are several cases where a natural formation was used as a starting point, and was further formed into what they needed the shape to be.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi again Mike,
Thank you for sharing your information; I am not really a 'newbie' at this however. The most common marker is the cross, some of those thought today to be markers are not substantiated in the records. Turtle markers for instance are thought by some 'experts' to be Spanish, yet there are turtle markers and petroglyphs far pre-dating the arrival of the Spanish. In fact, if there is a marker that appears to be almost all natural but maybe not all, then it is quite likely to be Amerindian, not Spanish or Jesuit or French or Mexican or any other Europeans involved. For instance the Warrior path in PA, which had at one time some stone and some marked trees along the route, which predates the Europeans and was thought by English to be "Spanish" markers but were wholly Amerindian.

If anyone is to get serious about finding lost Spanish/Mexican mines, you need to take all questionable markers with a good dose of salts; they MAY be markers or they MAY well be nothing in particular other than interesting, or expend a lot of time and effort investigating for nothing. King of Spain not withstanding, there are danged few Spanish mine markers to be found, that can be substantiated as being truly Spanish (or Mexican) in origins. For example, in Utah when some carved trees were thought to be Spanish markers to a lost gold mine:

Tree Carvings
One popular belief in the Uintas suggests that tree carvings were made by early Spanish miners to indicate the presence of a nearby mine.

Two carved trees, considered by prospectors to be “Spanish mine markers” were cored in July 2002 to establish the date when the carvings were done. The core test indicated that the trees were carved less than fifty years ago, establishing the date of carving in the 1940’s.4

In 1982, a local resident reported the location of “Spanish carved trees” in the Ice Cave Peak area to the forest archeologist. Core testing determined that the carvings had been made in the 1930’s.5 Tree ring dating is a relatively unobtrusive and very accurate way to measure the age of trees. It can also provide the date when a tree was carved with a very high margin of accuracy. Some of these trees have appeared in books dealing with Spanish gold mines and have been suggested to be signs left behind by Spanish miners long ago.

Unfortunately, the date when the carving was done does not corroborate the Old Spanish Trail theory. In reality, sheepherders on the forest during the 1930’s and 1940’s are responsibly for the vast majority of these carvings. Sheep herding is a boring occupation and usually relegated to the younger generation. Out of sheer boredom, many would take up the art of tree carving, for fun and as a means of marking locations that they had been to.6 Our scientific approach to determining the age of these trees and carvings has not persuaded any of the Spanish gold buffs. We have been told that we are wrong, “those carvings have been there as long as anyone can remember.” Another individual told us that our methods are provided incorrect results. “Those trees grow an inch every 100 years. So that means a 15 inch lodgepole is at least 1500 years old?!(Myths and Legends of the Uintas, 2003)

Carved rocks and stacked stone cairns are very, very difficult to try to estimate the age of construction, much less who or whom actually modified the stones. One need only look at the "Spanish Hieroglyphics" on Blacktop mesa, which were in fact altered by Storm in recent history to see how fraught with possible error the interpretation of stone markers and monuments can be! Words for the wise, with markers be certain.

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Dang Randy, right on the money again! You are very astute! There are many strange markers (stone, cactus etc) which post-date Waltz and if the Peralta legend is true FAR post-dates them. We should note that those who claimed to have found the mine of Waltz, almost never mention finding any kind of marker that led them to it. (One exception comes to mind, the "stone man" which was a stone pillar, natural, which had been supposedly altered by Waltz; however I am not sure that person who mentioned the stone man actually found the mine!)

Tropical Tramp has had experience with both genuine Spanish markers and fakes, genuine markers made by Indios etc; when he says it looks like a natural formation I tend to believe him.

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Randy! Might I ask where? If you would rather not say, I will understand.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hey Folks,

I give very little credence to tree markings (Why do you think you haven't seen any from me). I haven't found any tree markings that work in conjunction with the rock monuments I have found.

On the way out to the desert, I have to drive through a section of high forests around Julian (a HUGE gold mining community). There are some tree markings there, on some older trees, but nothing I get excited over.

What I know are rock monuments. Rock Cairns are many times worthless (unless they work in conjunction with other monuments). Cairns have been used as far back as probably cave men to mark a trail. They have also been used as late as last weekend (by me) to mark certain trails of interest. But, if you find a cairn at the mouth of a wash, and follow it up to another monument, that then leads to yet another monument......then you may be on to something. Also, there is a BIG difference between Spanish/Mexican Rock Cairns and US and Modern Rock Cairns. Spanish/Mexican Cairns many times have stones that have been cut to fit together. Later ones are just smaller or larger stacks of rocks.

Not to take anything away from Jose, but the only marker I have seen him post is the Tayopa Rock Map. That is not a monument at all. It is a marker (and a darn good one). Although I know his opinion is a Sainted one.

Other things you must take into account are how much traffic is in the area of your monument (the more traffic in the area, the more likely a modern work). That's why I prefer to hike in areas that are barren, and far from any popular destinations. That way, when I find something interesting, I know there is a much greater chance of it being a period piece (not modern).

Oro,

Not only were turtle markers and monuments used by Spanish and Indians, they were also used in China. You can't just look at one marker and say AHA! You have to take into account other markers and monuments as well. The Indians made bird monuments as did the Spanish. Like I stated above the Picture of the Turtle, "Here is a massive turtle monument. The head of the turtle points the way to an old gold mine, that a large cache was removed from in the 1960s (I think). The arrastra and hand built oxcart trails are still there." Yet another case of looking at the big picture rather than individual items. If you look closely, you can see some Indian pictographs that were added later (unless the Indians made the Turtle, and by coincidence, it just happened to be looking in the right direction where a rich gold mine would be found later).

When you say that there are very few substantiated Spanish Mine markers and monuments, you are mistaken. There are quite a few. In areas where there was a lot of Spanish Mining activity, there are consequently a lot of Spanish Mine Trail Markers. If there weren't, there would not be enough information to write those books which are available on the subject. We would also not know what the markers meant, if there weren't enough of them that mean the same thing.

You may not be a newbie at this, but your rule of monuments tells me that you have most likely missed out on a lot of monuments because they weren't artistically pleasing.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hio Gollum. err ah, calling someone a turtle in China is a supreme insult. "ni gsi womba" I would never call you a Womba, just a Dutchmanite-------.hehehe.

p.s. are you going to be at my Canonization?

p.p.s. Do you really want me to decypher the stones for you an ddjui?? Or would you rather struggle with them yourself?
Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Mike (Gollum) wrote:
you have most likely missed out on a lot of monuments because they weren't artistically pleasing.

Ah, hah...so that explains it. So, Mike, you have struck it rich by following up such markers as you have posted? I have located two rich gold deposits in my life, which had NO markers or monuments anywhere near them. (One is today owned by the Bering Straits Native Corp, produced over seven million $$$ the first year after they stole it, the other is now inside a state park in CA where no mining or prospecting is allowed, in case you were wondering why I am not there mining either of them at this moment.) Good old prospecting work is more likely to find you a paying mine than trying to follow up clues, however it is great fun searching for long-lost mines and trying to work out clues etc. I have also found a number of old mines, Spanish and otherwise, which were played out long ago - and again the markers/monuments were almost non-existant. I know the king of Spain had rules about marking the routes to mines etc but as far as what you will find in the field, it certainly looks like the miners were NOT obeying his laws.

Stone and tree markers are not only not common (I really defy anyone to prove that statement wrong) but with SO many which are not possible to absolutely identify who/whom created them or when, a treasure hunter is more likely to waste a lot of time with them than to 'get lucky'. I have found markers in the Yukon far from any roads where I thought we were the first 'white folk' to ever tread the area, and a few in Alaska too - and these markers only led to a way out to a trail, not to anything like a mine or buried treasure.

Mike wrote:
he head of the turtle points the way to an old gold mine, that a large cache was removed from in the 1960s (I think). The arrastra and hand built oxcart trails are still there.<snip>...(unless the Indians made the Turtle,<snip>"

That would be my bet, that the turtle marker was indeed made by Amerindians, not the miners. How can one PROVE that such markers/monuments were created by Spaniards or Mexicans, unless it has some very clearly Spanish inscription - like this one:

On the other hand, Mike might very well 'get lucky' and prove me wrong about the markers, of which some appear to be mostly or wholly natural in origins. I won't mind, and again judging only from photos is not the same as someone on the spot, who may be able to easily see tool marks NOT easy to see in a photo.

Oroblanco

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes." --Mark Twain

 

[gollum]

Hey Oro,

You missed one MAJOR part of my post! The turtle monument was looking in the direction of the mine and oxcart trails. More than likely, it was made by the people who owned the mine. Actually, after some thought, if it was a Spanish (not Mexican) Mine, Amerindians did most likely make it (Under the whip of a Spanish Mine Engineer).

You are correct about one thing though. Even as someone who knows Spanish Monuments, I would be just as likely to find a mine by good prospecting (the same way the original owners found the mine). The difference would be that if the mine was properly monumented, and the hunter knew what to look for, finding the mine would be much quicker and safer.

Safer, you ask? YES! SAFER! If the mine were indeed a rich one, or if a VERY valuable cache were hidden inside, there is a better than not chance that the shaft is rigged with one or two Death Traps. They were commonl;y used by the Indians, Spanish, and Mexicans. The Indians mainly used rattlesnakes, scorpions, poison, etc to guard a cave. Once introduced, rattlesnakes and scorpions will take up permanent residence, and breed generations that will live there also. So if rattlesnakes were introduced to a cave 200 years ago, they would likely still be there. The Spanish were more elaborate and scientific in their Death Trap designs.(Falling Boulders, Trap Floors, Poison on the dore bars, etc). Mexicans were very crude in their Death Trap designs (mostly falling rocks and poison).


Jose,

Here's a turtle in Mongolia:

About your Canonization; there is only ONE thing holding us back.......The Catholic Church! Seems like they don't appreciate you trying to steal all their treasure down there!

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,

I am not real big on tooting of one's own horn, however sometimes it helps to establish 'credentials' with a bit of proof. For anyone curious or doubtful about my own personal experience and/or ability in this field, here is a linkee: (admittedly now a bit out of date and only one example, but easy to find online)
http://www.treasurenet.com/westeast/199910/feature/

I would venture that a majority of gravity type death traps, (the most common as I understand) if not constructed well, have not survived the earthquakes over the centuries; in fact the finding of a strange boulder that seems to have 'rolled out' from a nearby ridge/hill could be the death weight which was set up over the entrance to a mine or buried cache. Finding a lost mine or buried treasure is not the end of your troubles either!

Oroblanco

"By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you will be happy, if you get a bad one, you will become a philosopher." --Socrates

 

[gollum]

Great Story Oro,

After Mexico won it's freedom from Spain in 1821, the fine art of monument making was mostly lost. After the miners were no longer required to use specific monuments for specific meanings, they began using more natural formations as markers (like your arch). Death Traps also fell out of use when less "Official Expeditions" were made, and more mining was being done by individuals and small groups (it is a lot harder for one or two people to place 20 ton boulders than for 20 or 30 Indian Slaves).

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=Oroblanco Finding a lost mine or buried treasure is not the end of your troubles either!
Oroblanco
***********8**********

tell me, mi buddy. sniff I am still behind the "8" ball.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Joseph (and Mike, Randy and everyone) don't worry I think you will win out in getting Tayopa up and running. If for no other reason than you don't have to deal with the tremendous anti-mining bias we have in the USA in government regulation. I don't expect that the Mexican government will go and make that area where Tayopa is, into a state park for example.

You know there is a lot of interest and speculation about the old Spanish and Mexican mines, prior to the southwest becoming a part of the United States. It is possible to document over 300 Spanish/Mexican mines in Arizona, for instance, (not all of which were legally denounced, but can be documented in other ways as on old deeds etc) and to be sure the Spaniards and Mexicans were good prospectors and miners, plus were able to induce/force local Indios to help find rich deposits. A good number of these old mines are not found even when we know the general location. However it helps to consider how much more numerous, energetic, thorough and effective the American gringos were. Now we just touched on how many Spanish mines were in Arizona prior to the gringos, well by 1877 there were no less than 11,605 mines in Arizona territory! A small proportion of these were old Spanish workings, but the great majority were first discovered by Americans. I don't have the figures for California handy but the numbers are even more striking there, for the Spaniards and Mexicans failed utterly to discover the incredibly rich gold fields of the Mother Lode country even though there were no Apaches lying in wait for them there. I don't wish to discredit the Spaniards, they were pretty good, but not as good as the Americans in my opinion. The farther north you go, the fewer and farther between the old Spanish workings are too - most are concentrated in the southern parts of the southwest. (Legends of old Spanish mines in Utah notwithstanding!)

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

OOOOOH, I don't think so Randy.

When it comes to gold fever, there aren't many people in the history of the world that worked harder or went to the lengths they did to get precious metals and gems. They were no more lazy than we are. It's just that when they had a grant from the king, and an almost unlimited supply of forced labor, why shopuld they do the grunt work. The Jesuits were no better. They didn't do any of the digging. They just treated the Indios better than the Spanish.

Oro,

You are correct. When it comes to tenacity, you can't beat the American Desert Rat Prospector!

Best,

Mike

 

[DEMON]

hi spent 2 days playing with spanish writing the words seem to be english to spanish not spanish to english i would assume this is bogus set of maps just my thought ty demon

 

[gollum]

Hey Demon,

I don't know if you are taking some things into account. Like Castillian Spanish instead of Mexican Spanish. I have Systran Translation Software (as well as speaking some Spanish), and it has no trouble translating the Spanish to English (except for the misspelled words).

See, many people think that the 1847 is not a date, but a code. Many people think that the stones were made by the Jesuits many years earlier, but even if they were made in 1847, Mexico had just won it's independence from Spain in 1821. Castillian would have been the primary language for either Jesuits or a wealthy mining family of Sonora (peraltas). All of that is provided the stones are authentic.

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[gollum
Not to take anything away from Jose, but the only marker I have seen him post is the Tayopa Rock Map. That is not a monument at all. It is a marker (and a darn good one). Although I know his opinion is a Sainted one.
***********


Hmm the reason is fairly obvious no? Let them find their own signs heheh.


Speaking of signs, what do you think of this photograph?

Tropical Tramp