The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Oroblanco]

Good point. Even if the deaths occurred at about the same time, we don't know for a fact that the one in western clothes was even with the rest. The whole Peralta legend involves a lot of what could be termed 'circumstantial evidence' - if this were a court case, how would we rule on it?

I even have a tough time trying to accept that the victims were miners - no gold pans found? What are we supposed to assume then, that either the miners had none, or the Apaches took them? Either supposition strikes me as illogical. Last I knew, most Apaches were not too interested in gold mining and would have little use for a gold pan. I can't imagine a mining expedition that had NO gold pans with them. Gold pans were found by dead miners killed by Apaches in other instances, but NONE here? If we are to accept that the massacre victims WERE miners, what about the missing gold pans?

Who knows? No-one...

well, I shouldn't say that

Okay Randy - you opened the door - tell us more?

Oroblanco

 

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[Oroblanco]

Post script

Dear readers, you may recall the aspersions cast on good Father Polzer, for his being a Jesuit which must have led him to lie about the Peralta stones? Hmm. Well what about a bias in favor of the stones on the part of some involved?

The Phoenix Dons club has been mentioned here earlier, and they seem a pretty nice club with the following stated goals:

For more than 65 years, the Dons' goal has been the study, preservation and public presentation of the history, legends and lore -- plus the cultures and grandiose scenery -- of Arizona and the Southwest.


All well and good - now how about a couple of their more famous members?

Bob Corbin, former Attorney General of the State of Arizona

Barry Goldwater, former U. S. Senator, former Active Member of the Dons

So what if these two famous persons were or are members of this altruistic group? Well Bob Corbin has been quoted as having a belief that the Peralta stones are real, and senator Goldwater helped Barry Storm publish his books on the Lost Dutchman. Is this conclusive proof of the Dons having created the stones? No, of course not, but they DO have motive, ability and opportunity, and this openly stated desire to promote Arizona's history, legends and lore might well influence (overtly or not) a conclusion as to the stones validity. If this were a legal case, it might even be argued that the Dons might have created the stones as a harmless way to 'help along' the interesting lore of beautiful Arizona, or perhaps that they might have not been quite as skeptical towards them as they might have otherwise.

Now I don't want to hear how I am 'casting aspersions' on Bob Corbin or Senator Goldwater, I am NOT accusing them of having done anything dishonest, just pointing out that it could be questioned, and that they may not have had fully un-biased views of the Peralta Stones.

Oroblanco

 

[Seventytwo]

I hear a great deal of historical facts about the stone maps, but I do not see any answers to the following questions. Is there anyone who can clarify these issues for us?

Who produced the maps? (Spanish or Anglo) A Club/Ted Degrazia
When were they produced? Late 40's early 50's
Who was to interpret the maps? you and I
Where did the maps come from? The minds of devious men
What is the source of the stone used for the maps? from a peak in Upper La Barge Canyon 3487
Why were the stone maps produced? To promote Arizona
What is at the end of the maps? a mine that used to belong to Herman Pertrash
or the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine.
azmula
How do we know this ?
Ted Degrazia painted us a picture of the mine, and it is easy to do, if you are told where the mine is.
Ain't that right DON!

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,

djui5 wrote
They buried all the tools near their camp in Marsh Valley, and only took the ore, plus what food they'd need, and supplies

Hmm, then why would they bury gold pans, which weigh two pounds, and haul off a crowbar, which weighs over eight pounds and is not handy to pack? Why carry away ANY mining tools for that matter, if they were going to bury the tools and planned to return?

Or, they packed all the supplies on mules or horses, which were killed by Apaches and either the tools were left where they lay, or were taken by Apaches.

Then we should be finding gold pans, drills, shovels, picks, hammers etc scattered all over Massacre Field - this has not happened either! Alternatively, what use would Apaches have for gold pans? They are not good for cooking, and were not taken by Apaches who killed other miners in other attacks - so why would they take them from this attack, and leave them at others?

I'm sure someone out there knows

Whom might that be?

Oroblanco

 

[DEMON]

isn't weaver's needle on that map and if it is why does map start so far away from such a know icon find map is to mislead just a thought demon

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=Oroblanco Hello again,
Or, they packed all the supplies on mules or horses, which were killed by Apaches and either the tools were left where
**************
Apaches loved Mule meat, they would just drive the live unladen Mules along , possibly back to their main camp. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
! Alternatively, what use would Apaches have for gold pans? They are not good for cooking,

********* Ah!ah! oro, I, as well as you, have used the metal ones for frying eggs and making soup, coffee, or stew. Admit it , even used hub caps.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tropical Tramp el tinker

 

[gollum]

Demon,

There is what appears top be Weaver's Needle on the Upper Trail Map. The triangle with the sharp point sticking out of it. Many people think that this represents Weaver's Needle. The Stone Maps "may" begin at the edge of the Superstitions. 150 years ago, there were no roads in there, or accurate maps. Anyone going in there would need to have guidance from the outskirts of the mountains, not from the middle. That is, if the stone maps have anything to do with the Superstitions!

Another person has made a very good point that they may actually show an area South of the Border!

Randy,

Here are some Mexican Pack Saddles of the era, that were found near Massacre Field.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA Tropical Tramp,
Yes, to be honest I have used a gold pan to cook, however I regretted it quickly afterwards as the danged grease would NOT come off that pan. I ended up setting it in the fire for hours to burn off all the grease. I never used an old hubcap, but have used a shovel - and a side note here, but if anyone ever finds they have to use a shovel to cook with, burn off that machine oil that coats the metal - even a brillo won't take it off and if you don't, your food picks up an incredibly nasty 'flavor' that will coat your mouth and make you lose your appetite.

Like you I make sure my gold pans are good and rusted, as a rusted pan works FAR better than a shiny one, and yes my old metal pan is still my favorite. I would expect that the Mexicans would keep their pans rusty as well, and we know that the Apaches did not bother to pick up gold pans in other attacks, so why would they do so in this instance?

The pack saddles are more circumstantial evidence, really - and to my eye they look identical to American Sawbuck type pack saddles. Here is a new one, on a mule:

I have used this type of pack saddle, they work pretty good but the Decker style are said to be easier on the animal's backs. The old Sawbuck type has been around for a LONG time, and used by many people - it would be difficult to 'date' these saddles much less identify who had owned them. Is it not just as possible that these were from the mules lost by Waltz or the two soldiers when they were raided by Apaches? They could be totally unrelated too, just some poor prospector or hunter who happened to lose his pack animals and saddles. So the pack saddles MAY be evidence of Mexicans or they MAY well be totally unrelated.

If there had been a dozen or more pack saddles found, it would be easier to say this must be the Mexicans as it was a large group but only TWO saddles makes it tough.

I looked at some of the artwork of Ted DeGrazia, and to my non-expert eye I can't see a close resemblance between his artwork and the Peralta stones. He was certainly capable of creating them.

It seems no matter how far we go into this subject, when we find answers it only raises more questions. We have been on the massacre a lot lately - well what if the massacre is totally unrelated - does that invalidate the Peralta stones or legend? I think it would only invalidate the massacre story part. There are so many tales related to the Superstition mountains that it is a bit like walking in a cow pasture barefoot, have to watch where we step - but there are truths in there if we can weed out the BS.

Oroblanco

 

[DEMON]

no offence but where does a person start a map if they know the regine

 

[gollum]

Hey Mrs. Oro,

They are at The Bluebird Mine and Gift Shop near Apache Junction.

See Oro, you're not taking the evidence in total. These were found AT the Massacre Grounds. If you look, it's not just two pack saddles. It's a pack saddle and a regular saddle.

Demon,

The stone maps (if real) were not made for the people who knew the region. The only reason to make the maps is for people who DON'T know the area. The people who have been going there to mine already know where they are going.

Oh, and Roy,

Leave the oil on! Haven't you ever seasoned a cast iron skillet? Coat it with grease, oil, or lard, and put it in intense heat for a couple of hours!

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

Since I have not seen the saddles personally, I cannot say for certain. I can only go by what is both written in the book, and on the display itself.

If you want to know how they came to the conclusion that these saddles were of Spanish (Mexican) origin, call and ask (if the place is still in business).

Best,

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[=gollum.

If you look, it's not just two pack saddles. It's a pack saddle and a regular saddle.
*************
Being a gentleman as you well know, I did not mention this before. The Mexican pack saddles look like two large square cowhide pillows, perhaps 2 ft square. They are joined at top to be an integral unit. A night on the rail when they are stacked on the grund, they look like miniature "A" tents grouped together.


The saddle is not a Military McClellan, since they did not use the horn, and both saddles used the single cinch. This made for interesting experiences if you did not check and rearrange them before going up or down a steep slope. I have had several interesting, perhaps humorous & dangerous experiences until I learned to do this automatically. I will relate one particular incident that was potentially very embarrassing if you will allow me to depart a bit from the basic lead?

On the pans, the oil used to cook with made them almost impossible to pan fine Gold, this is why ORO had to carbonize it
in the camp fire.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

I can't see anything where the horn would be!

That part of the saddle is gone, but I'll leave the ID to the Pros.


HAHAHAHAHA As I'm typing this, I overheard the TV. Mail Call with R. Lee Ermey is on. They have a whole segment on the McClellan Saddle! Talk about coincidence! Right now, they are showing a guy actually building a model 1859 McClellan, piece by piece. Are you sure it's called a "McClennan" and not "McClellan", or are there two?

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,
I actually own a McClellan saddle that has been 'in the family' over a century and still gets used now and then. Those McClellans are considered one of the very best saddles for the horse, as it puts no pressure on their spine. That gap in the center however can make your hind parts sore though if you ride all day for several days.

There are at least three different model McClellans for horse and one for mule, the mule model is the one I have and is double rigged (two cinches, the rear cinch never pulled up tight unless you want a bucking bronco) and always used with both martingale (front straps around the shoulders of the horse/mule) and britching (rear straps around the hindquarters) as well as a crupper (a looped fitting that goes under the tail, prevents the saddle slipping forward when going down steep hills).

I have seen a photo of two pack saddles (though one may not be a pack saddle) reported found NEAR Massacre Field before, and actually have to admit never really thought about examining them closely. What could we learn from the saddles? That one on the left is definitely a Sawbuck pack saddle - the one on the right looks to be a saddle for riding, can't tell for certain what type but it has the cantle remaining which is only on a riding saddle. Not all saddles have or had horns, (my own personal favorite riding saddle is an Australian with NO horn - if you ever got that horn jammed into your belly by a horse going off his nut, you wouldn't want one either, unless you are roping cattle which is what that horn is really for - to wrap your lariat around when trying to control a wild cow, calf, heifer etc) it is unlikely that the horn would have been removed as they are 'built in' during the construction of the saddle and built to hold the tug of a bull. Many military saddles had no horns - most Mexican saddles had rather large horns. Most Mexican saddles were made with a high cantle (back part, results in a 'deep seat' for the rider) which helped keep you on the horse in steep country. The one in the photo is in such rough shape I can't say for certain whether this had a high cantle or low cantle, as it is it looks like a low cantle but who knows.

Here are three of the types of McClellan saddles, the 1859

The 1872 McClellan

The 1874 McClellan

There is also an 1885 and a 1904, but the differences are slight. I disagree, it does not resemble the Waggon to my eye, as the Waggon had a noticeable horn.

Here is a military style Spanish saddle made from the 1840s to 1860s:

Here is a Mexican saddle, 1800s type

I could only find ONE image of an antique Mexican pack saddle, here it is: (unfortunately this is a BURRO saddle, not quite the same as a horse type - note the bars which rest on the back of the animal are not even rounded)

also note how similar it looks to an American Sawbuck type. (I have actually made a couple of these Burro size saddles myself, may still have one here somewhere.)

Anyway I am now convinced that the pair of saddles are meaningful - one is a pack saddle, the other definitely a riding saddle - someone lost a riding horse or mule and a pack animal!

Oroblanco

PS Take out a shovel and try frying up a couple of eggs or making a few strange shaped pancakes on it, without removing the machine oil by fire first. Find out what I am talking about, if you dare....

 

[Oroblanco]

Hey found this neat photo on Ebay while hunting for antique Mexican saddles, here is an antique Mexican saddle complete with an antique Mexican!

I should have lied and said "this is Ramon Peralta on his way to the Superstition mountains" but I ain't that good at lying, still if the Peralta legend is true they would have looked pretty similar to this Vaquero.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Ok, smart-butt,

So I can't spell it!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had a stroke awhile back, you obviously knew what I meant!!!

No, I obviously don't! I know about Tennessee Walkers and Sulky Racers. I don't know much about tack.

Why do you think I asked?

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=mrs.oroblanco ]
Ok, smart-butt,
So I can't spell it!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had a stroke awhile back, you obviously knew what I meant!!
****************
Hi Beth, Unfortunately Roy has a tendency to do that to people snicker. Seriously I am glad that you weathered it nicely, I have no doubt that Roy helped you greatly there.

Tropical Tramp

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Roy, regarding that horn--. Once when I had rented a mule, we had reached the crest of the pass where we would be leaving his home range, he stopped and looked back. I nudged him to go on, but he merely backed up a bit. Soo I nudged him again but more forcefully, I suddenly found myself doubled over with the *&** horn in my tummy unable to move. The cottin pickin mule had deliberately backed under a small mesquite tree branch which had forced me forward. He then turned an inquiring eye towards me as if the say "Ok buster, what now"? He knew that if he continued onward he would not be home for few days.

I gently tried nudging him again. he simply backed a little further under the branch. I was now having a hard time to simply breathe with no way to get out of the saddle. So as an experiment I turned him back to Chinapas, he came out like shot trotting. I then put him into several sharp left turns ending up on the trail and direction that I wanted. He took several steps then sort of shrugged his shoulders and I never had any more trouble with him.

Mules are smarter than any cottin pickin horse, even smarter than gallium.


On those Mexican saddles, try riding one that had been out in the weather for some time with the stirrups semi permanently twisted and the tacks in the seat coming loose for a month sheehs, still have callouses.

It doesn't help to try to pound them back in since they just come out again in an hour or so of ridding.

End point, I don't think that any saddles found were from any early 1800 period, they would have been long gone. Even in the desert, Termites rule. Plus many desert animals love to chew on anything impregnated with mule or burro sweat. Also burros were the choice of transportation animals, carry almost as much and required far less care or food.

Tropical Tramp

 

[gollum]

Hey TT,

I don't doubt that a good mule might be a match for me!

Everybody,

Before we can say for certain WHEN those saddles were found at the Massacre Grounds, how can ANYBODY know how old they are?

I believe that the Bleubird Mine was open for a loooooong time. There is nothing that shows the date of the find. I have found that the Curio and Gift Shop has been open since 1948, and is still open. The Bluebird Mine first opened for business in 1908.

If the saddles were found around the time of the mine's opening, they were only about 50 years old. Who knows, maybe they were in the collection of the mine owner before the Bluebird opened in 1908.

I can't find a number for the Gift Shop. Maybe one of you locals can.

It's easily possible that the saddles could be authentic to the early to mid 1800s. We just have to find out about when they were taken out of the desert (and the weathering processes stopped).

Hey Jose, bet your mule didn't think of that one!

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I thought you were ranking on me for my typing!! I usually have to look at what I type a couple of times, cause, since the stroke, what is in the brain, will not always translate to my fingers!!! It's ok - I actually am a stickler for spelling (one of my "pet peeves" is newspeople who mis-spell stuff - it gets by them AND their proof-readers!!)

They are the same - just a mistake of the hand. I am interested in anything horse related - its the only stuff in the "What is it" that I can
identify - without looking it up! That's why I asked you about them. I can see that it (the saddle) is very broken, with a portion of the front of the saddle (the swell) broken off and the rest tied on to the side - which, depending on what it originally looked like, would be extremely informative (to me, anyway). I DID notice that the part in the front that is broken, seems to have been "snapped off", since (at least in the picture, it looks like a very jagged break. Aside from the Peralta discussion, I would love to have a look at it. (I even have an antique side-saddle from the late 1800's, maybe very, very early 1900's). I really wish I could have seen the program that you were watching about the McClellan saddles, I watch all that sort of stuff that is equine/mule/donkey/equipment related.

Jose,

Thanks, I am doing very well, actually - I had the stroke on Roy's birthday (Happy Birthday to him) almost 2 years ago. (same day as the Tsunami), and this year, I am hoping to return to being able to take a "long" winter TH trip. (wasn't quite ready last year).

Oh, those saddles - the military used them because they were/are supposedly great for the horses, but, even when the leather is soft, and straight, it is NOT a comfortable saddle for the rider!!! Back when I used to ride every day, I tried one (not an old one, this one still had some padding, and I was done after a half hour!!

At least you have a stroke to blame for typing errors. I have nothing to blame but me!

I think that (based on last night's Mail Call Episode with R Lee Ermey), the McClellans only cost $13 apiece to make. The comfort of the rider was a distant second. Typical Military.

Mike