The Peralta Stone Maps, Real Maps to Lost Gold Mines or Cruel Hoax?

[Springfield]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I will offer a couple of opinions from a non-partisan point of view.

1) 'Dating' rock carvings is extremely difficult, if not impossible, even for 'experts'. Unlike carbon-dating (an 'exact science' which nonetheless often yields inconsistant results) and other 'sciences', this realm generally is one of subjective opinions, with wildly conflicting conclusions from the examiners. You can argue all day about micro-mechanical testing, chemical analysis, epigraphics, etc., but, frankly, there is no way to be certain due to a myriad of variables, not the least of which is the possibility of cunning forgery, which has fooled many experts. I am in no way denegrating Mr. Dana, who it seems was a competant scientist. I'm sure he was convinced of his own conclusions, but those conclusions cannot be used as a bedrock arguement for the age of these carvings, IMHO.

2) Concerning priviledged information, liars, etc. Disinformation is the heart and soul of treasure hunting - get used to it. If a person knows the truth about hidden treasure or a valuable mineral location, he may reveal much about the subject to others for various reasons, but will guard the most important information until death. The only way you or I will ever be privvy to such information is through a family connection, initiation into a group with much higher goals than personal enrichment, or 'an act of God'. Sure, lots of self-styled people-in-the-know will pass on 'secrets' to eager followers and avid researchers. Why? For lots of reasons - a feeling of importance, for money, for 'validation', for devilish amusement, etc. [Polzer of course is in the opposite camp as an apologist/denyer for the Jesuits. Nothing he's said is useful to a treasure hunter.] Is the information useful? 'Yes', in a sort of way that may move you further along in the game, but 'no' when it comes to any hoped-for closure. If you are tenacious, can you ferret out THE SECRET? No, of course not. People have been running around the hills for generations thinking they've figured out where buried treasure is located, based on what someone has told them or on their own detective work. They're STILL running in circles. It all makes for great discussion and speculation, and spirited arguements, which is plenty enough satisfaction for most. But if you think you're ever going to solve these puzzles, think again. If the prize was valuable and was hidden, it is still known about and will NOT be discovered by an outsider. It's not much different than seeking spiritual enlightenment, is it?

3) When the Anglo miners moved into the Southwest in the mid 19th-century, many of their workings were abandoned Mexican sites. The Mexicans were all over this country up until this time. Old placer tailings and load mines were easy to find and rework. Were these Mexican sites rich? Yes, some were, as are most new discoveries. By today's standards, their ore assayed extremely rich, but remember, the lode deposits back then were shallow and short-lived. Were they lost or hidden mines? No, most were simply abandoned. Many had played out but were resurrected with better technology and became big producers. Are there old Mexican mines to be found in the Superstitions? Sure, and also in many other ranges in CA/AZ/NM/CO. Are they rich lost Spanish/Jesuit mines? No, they're merely old abandoned Mexican workings.

 

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[gollum]

The area's I haven't opened up yet are the Antique Library and the Virgin of Guadalupe's main Vault. I think the library contains the location of the Vaults. I've found most of the other areas and locators on the map. The district is large and covers a vast land tract of old played out Spanish and Aztec Mines. Yes it is near Tumacacori but most have looked in that immediate area with no results. I was able to locate the master Map far from that area carved in rock and spent nine months reversing all the rock maps from that new location. The end result. A Gold Mining Claim.

I sure did say this and I'm proud of it!

One thing you over looked Brian the Mining claim is in my name and not in or near the Tumacaori's!

And thanks for the credits of all those names but you missed so many more I use all the time.

I'm everywhere.

And I'm no where.

My Mining claims are legal what about yours? Been jumping up and down lately? Getting a little sweaty and worried?

Don't worry gentlemen I like you all, and your posts, why would I destroy you?

Hell,

if it wasn't for all you boys posting and fighting we would all be bored out of our wits!

Now this is the statement of a real Chicken #@!$%#@! just read:

Hey Roy,

You didn't stir this mess up. It was stirred up a looooooooooooooong time ago. If you mean this stuff with Blackbeard, it started on the other LDM Forum. He seemed to have a problem with Rochha, that went back a ways. I tend to stay out of those personal squabbles, but he (blackbeard) made some statements regarding Gary Oliver and the Tumacacori area that slandered Roccha, that I knew were not true. I don't know Rochha from a hole in the ground, but won't abide a liar. When I called him on it, he tried to change the subject, and altered his story somewhat. I contacted Gary, and asked him about what BB had stated. He said it wasn't true. BB came back with another altered statement. I emailed Gary again, and this time he said the guy's (BB's) story is total BS.

I would offer you the opportunity to go there and see the posts for yourself, but BlackBeard/Ronnie Kelso/Billy/Wyatt/WyattWestwood/Jan/Heidi/whatever deleted all his posts. You can still see my posts (with pictures), and some of the main lies he posted (because I quoted him).

He claimed to know the story of the treasure (not true), and on this forum, he also claimed to know Gary Oliver (also untrue). I just hate liars!

What a Crock of KA-KA!

ALL THOSE PICTURES THAT HE POSTED ILRESPONSIBLY HAS HIM WORRIED TO DEATH!

And Protecting Rocha a Republican Bush Lover, Handicapped Bully and Environmental Destoyer?

Why?

Now ORO has it right when he says:

It behooves us NOT to post publicly any information about the correct locations of old missions, forts etc and I know it is already too late but please my friends don't post any more information about the locations publicly where some protectionist jerks might find it (and yes there are some that read our posts here!) and then lobby for the Feds or state to get it locked up. Let us share the info alright but keep it in private messages where the jerks can't read it? At least not without some involved snooping on their part.

You know ORO that stands true if it's on public land. But private land is anybodies play ground if they have permission from the property owners to dig.

And a High priced Lawyer!

But what I have on Rocha is not so pretty! Why should I put him six feet under his own ego?

I could do that if I wanted to but keeping the info to myself is just fine wth me. Showing the exact location of his site with GPS would be wrong. Not with out calling the owners of the property first and getting their permission. Giving out the directions to a bogus site in Calabasas, well, I guess I acted in haste to. I'll stop that myself in the future. I don't want anyone to go down there and dig in a Land Fill and get hurt.


ORO's right in that respect we should all watch what we post about including you Mike, Brian, Rocha. You guys have posted so much material including locations of sites with photo's directions to these sites in your rush and glee to prove me wrong when you all know I'm right you did it with out thinking. Just like I did with the Bogus Directions. I won't give away your secrets rocha even though you are Republican.

You've given would be Treasure Hunters all the material they need to go up there and start a new
"Fecht Archaeological Terrorist Team" or Halloween "Grave Robbers Club"!

Be careful!

Your more concerned about your own little ego's and controlling the information flow on your "Mr Happy" moderated forum than the true answers to any puzzle or claim so you have to "Pony Up" all the info in the form of photographs any would be Grave Robbers could use at Olivers old site.

Private land we should all call the owners and talk to first. A contract would be nice.

All public land, don't post photo's and tell everyone on there where they're from!

BB

Now back to the stones.

ORO,

Why bother with proving anything at all about who made them if they do lead somewhere? Since none of us will post anymore photo's and give the true locations how do we prove anything? We don't.

Keeping this all underground is a good thing. The photo I posted should be proof enough. I won't give out the location even though it's on Private land. But is does clearly show a Horse's Head and it was found with the Stone Maps Horse Map.

It's not in the Superstitions so what does that tell you?

The Horse came from Santa Fe!

BB
​

BB,

Thanks for that. It clears a lot of things up, and shows what an idiot you are! You are EVERYWHERE, and you are NOWHERE (but you are a rat and liar ANYWHERE you go)!

The Virgin de Guadalupe Mine is right there by Camp Loco. You yourself have stated that both the Molina Document and associated map are authentic. If so, that puts the Virgin de Guadalupe right there (look closely at the map).

Maybe you can enlighten me as to who "Brian" is. Like I have said before. Everybody here knows who I am, but you, like the rat you are, have never given your identity.

See, like you tried to do before, you are attempting to change the subject after I prove you to be a liar. Why can't you answer to what I have shown everybody is not true. See, I'm not a stupid person. When you lie, and then get caught doing it, I will not let you change the subject until you answer to the lies!

You stated that you knew Gary Oliver. LIE
You stated that you had a claim on the area of the Virgin de Guadalupe Mine (but it's not in Camp Loco Area) LIE
You call me Brian? I don't understand why, but that's a LIE
You said (other forum) that Gary Oliver is offering a reward for Charlie. LIE
You said (other forum) Charlie, and not Allen Fecht was the main guy poaching Gary's Claim. LIE
You inferred (other forum) that you were a Federal Marshall. LIE
You are obsessed with Freemasonry, and claim to know all their secrets. TRUE (sad and funny, but TRUE)!

I am not worried about anything at all having to do with posting any pictures. I have referenced them all. I got the majority of them from Gary Oliver. If you doubt it, why not drive over to Camp Loco at the beginning of next month, and ask him yourself. He will be there (as I have said before), but you won't do that, because you will just embarrass yourself (once again).

I will post this pic (just like I did on the LDM Forum), to show what a liar and idiot you are:

That is a picture of Gary Oliver standing next to one of the backfilled shafts. See the black strata there? That's ash and coal (left over from the smelting process) that was mixed with the dirt to backfill the shaft, and hide everything from the Spanish. Gee, if I didn't know Gary Oliver, why do I have his picture? It's not posted online anywhere. I must have gotten it from him.HMMMMMMMMMM.....makes your position sound a little shaky, doesn't it kookmeister?

Now, lying rat; You say that you don't want to destroy any of us. I think you are vastly overrating your capabilities! You are a nut and a liar. I have proven so on the other LDM Forum, and here as well. Why don't you slither back into your sewer, and leave REAL treasure hunting to the honest men and women.

Now Oro,

As the Stone Maps are made of sandstone, it is entirely possible that some small roots worked their way into the stone itself from inside the engravings. They might not have been easily visible, only under a microscope. Professor Dana was the head of the Geology Dept, at UC Redlands at the time. Although he may or may not have had training in epigraphy, I think that even you or I could find modern tool markings under a microscope.

I never said you did claim he had an agenda, I was just comparing his to Father Polzer. I would have put a lot more weight to Father Polzer's statements if I hadn't read from Tayopa about his gorounds with him, and later found out he was a Jesuit. Why are you stuck in the Supers with your Polzer argument? Polzer said there were NO JESUIT MINING OPERATIONS IN PRIMERIA ALTA EVER, ANYWHERE! We know that is a false statement (based on two of Tumacacori's Mines being previously found, and Tayopa finding the location of some of the Tayopa Mines in Mexico). Do you still want to believe what Father Polzer said? You also make a lot about the stones being some eighty years after the Jesuit Expulsion. You seem to forget that the Jesuits were restored Worldwide in 1814.

In the past you have made a big deal about there being no known Peraltas in the Supers. There were several in the Bradshaws (which are far to the NortWest). Why would you not assume them to be in the Supers as well? The Peraltas, being a mining family, would have been anywhere there was gold or silver to be found.

You are correct when you say SOME of the believers won't try using them as maps, but when you say "that speaks volumes to me" what does that speak volumes of? Only SOME of the believers won't do that. EVERY possessor of the stones, since they were found (?) in 1949 has done it. THAT should speak more volumes to you than what some believers won't do.

You keep calling them Peralta Stones, and connecting everything that way, but there is NO known connection to the Peraltas. I have made that same mistake on occasion. It is POSSIBLE that they are connected, but it is just as possible that they are not. Three words connect them "DON" "PEDRO" "MIGUEL" That said, their were many Dons, Pedros, and Miguels in both Mexico and Southern Arizona.

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

I agree as well (mostly).

Some of the pictures and information I was given confidentially, were done so because of a book being written, that will include this information. Some of it was given confidentially due to fear of reprisals by others who would know where the information came from. Much of what I was given is backed up by copies of documents, and/or pictures.

There is a very good chance that anything that was hidden was found long ago.

I'll expound on the story I told a while back, about the Black canadian Tracker. There was a small group of men that had found some monuments and markers in Upper (I think) La barge Canyon. One of their group was a tracker from Canada. The only thing the guy carried with him was a small whisk broom in his back pocket (like an umpire).

When they showed him this area, he wandered around for about a half hour looking kind of lost and dazed. Finally, he squatted down, and pulled out his whisk broom. He dusted off a spot, and said dig here! In that exact spot, they found a rock-lined vault (an empty rock-lined vault).

If the cache is gone, the only reason to keep the secret is a book deal (and maybe some tourism).

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
This is going to be a very long post, so I ask your indulgence.

Old Spanish and-or Mexican mines/workings in the Superstitions? You neglected to address this question, which was based on your statement - quote

The reason I say this is that many of the miners in the late 1800s and early 1900s found and reopened older Mexican and Spanish Mines out there, and worked them until they played out.

Now Springfield has made a similar statement:

Are there old Mexican mines to be found in the Superstitions? Sure, ...<snip>

I have read quite a number of disparaging statements (here on T-net) about my own personal knowledge and research of which only Mrs Oro actually has some idea of how much and how in depth my work has been. Mostly I let these statements slide, sometimes point up sweeping statements like "Absolutely mistaken" but have done a considerable amount of research on the Superstitions, the colonial Spanish and the Jesuits, who were "restored" worldwide in 1814, however they were NOT restored to Arizona, the missions there remained in the possession and control of the Franciscans. What ever you may think of Father Polzer, there is no evidence of Jesuits in the Superstitions. The mines we call "Jesuits" were in many cases not owned or worked by Jesuits but by Spanish, Mexicans, mestizos and even yes INDIANS. (There is even a famous 'lost' mine, the "Mine of the Blond Mayo") I could not find any record of anyone ever finding any old Mexican or Spanish mines or workings in the Superstitions, other than that tale attributed to Waltz on his deathbed, told to men he is known to have considered to be claim-jumpers and snipers) regardless, we have people making claims that "many" old Mexican and Spanish mines were "found and worked" not counting the numerous other Mexican and Spanish mines which remain un-discovered, IN the Superstitions. There are tales, yes, but none that I could substantiate in any way.

You are attributing a bias on the part of Father Polzer concerning the Peralta stones (which name I use only because it is common use and believed to be Peraltas by many, if I were to call them what I would prefer, it is likely to enrage some nice people here and I don't care to lose any MORE friends over this). So you want to view Polzer's statements with a jaundiced eye, well Gollum you know there are OTHER professionals who have indeed taken a look at them, which was discussed on other forums (not in T-net) though I have refrained from posting anything of it here out of respect. A consulting firm named Desert Archaeology Inc did an informal examination of the stones. Three experts were involved, Research Archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams, Research Geologist Dr. Elizabeth Miksa, and Historical Archaeologist Homer Thiel. Here are some extracts on what their conclusions were:

1. "There is no evidence that the stones were ever buried."
2. "The dark stones were mechanically sanded and then drilled.........In many places, there is a 'start dimple' where the drill first touched the stone."
3. "The use of an electric drill to create the drawings and symbols............dates their carving to sometime after 1940."
(Dr. Adams)

4. ......"the Peralta Stones originated far from where they were supposedly found."
5. "The big stone with the horse appears to be Coconino Sandstone,...... The other two sandstones are very soft, very fine, iron-rich ...sandstones. [These] are most likely found on the Mogolon Rim or in northern Arizona."
(Dr. Miksa)

6. "The lettering is completely wrong for the Spanish language documents of the [supposed] time period." (Prof. Thiel)

(These were published in a magazine, I hope to locate the article.)
All three experts concluded the stones were modern frauds. Naturally this resulted in these comments being attacked as "biased" for one reason or another, and that these 'experts' didn't do any OFFICIAL testing. I can presume that some will claim that they must have examined one of the copies, and not one of the originals, however the copies were made by casting, so it would be less likely they would be able to find tool marks as most casts do lose some details. Father Polzer even laughed when someone stated that the stones were believed to be at least 100 years old, but of course we are to dismiss anything and everything because he must be "protecting" some mysterious, secret hidden Jesuit mines and/or treasures in the Superstitions. Not to keep repeating your statement, but

A preponderance of the evidence shows that they were at least 100 years old in 1964.


strikes me as a relatively BIASED conclusion on your part - a "preponderance" shows there were "at least 100 years old" - simply because some FBI man told Corbin that they "believed" the stones were at least 100 years old? You assume that prof. Dana and his colleagues ran tests on the stones, yet we really don't know if they actually did any testing, it is possible they simply examined them - very much the same way that the experts from Desert Archaeology Inc did.

We can find experts who state un-equivocally that the James ossuary is genuine, and other experts who make equally sweeping statements that they are frauds. With inscribed stones this happens all too frequently. You can choose to believe which ever position we prefer or "weight" the positions with other evidence to decide. I would have liked to have seen an expert in epigraphy examine the stones, though it is possible that an epigrapher could examine the photos today to judge the writing styles, it is not possible to closely examine the actual engravings from the photos. I am not an expert in epigraphy, but have studied a fair number of inscriptions including Spanish and a few Mexican - and to MY eye, the writing style (just ignoring the strange mis-spelled words) does NOT resemble any genuine Spanish or Mexican inscriptions I have seen. Mike you don't seem the least bit bothered by the writing style on these Peralta stones, why? Do you know of other Mexican or Spanish inscriptions that resemble this style? If so why not post them here? It might change my opinion as to the age and validity of these stones if I could see another example that had a similar style that we KNOW to be genuine.

Your statement that (quote) " EVERY possessor of the stones, since they were found (?) in 1949 has done it. "end quote ("done it" meaning used the stones as maps to search for treasure) is not quite accurate either is it? The museum has not attempted to use them as maps, have they? Museums DO have archaeological digs, and sponsor field research, yet the Flagg Foundation (NOT an arm of government, so that point about the stones MUST be genuine or the State could not have 'seized' them and given them to a government museum is also wrong) has not sponsored even a cursory field examination of the area supposedly mapped by these stones. It would have been more accurate to say “every private possessor of the stones” though actually the Flagg Foundation, now known as the Arizona Mineral and Mining Museum Foundation is also private, not government run. (You can obtain membership in the AMMMF if you wish) The museum could sell the stones at any time they wish, if they should so desire.

I found on that other forum some figures Gollum had posted concerning MOEL and how much money they returned to investors, quote

After the article came out, they began selling shares for the adventure. When the state got wind of this, they went after MOEL for selling stock shares without having a license to do so. As a result of that lawsuit, MOEL repaid about $80,000 to investors. They were also forced to give up the stones to the state! end quote

Can you site a source that reports that MOEL returned this sum of money to the investors? Do we know how much money the investors actually invested with MOEL?

Mike you took exception to my use of the term “bilked” concerning the investors in MOEL not receiving their investment funds when the corp was dissolved – well I notice that in another forum, you stated, quote

It is a fact that in order to stay out of jail, MOEL agreed to repay the investors money (about $80,000), and the state took possession of the stones.

Now this only supports the idea that the investors were not being dealt with honestly by MOEL, since MOEL agreed to pay back investors’ money in order to stay out of jail. So I stick by my assertion that MOEL in fact ‘bilked’ investors of their money.

I have made repeated attempts to bow out of this thread, and keep getting drawn back in, like picking a scab I can’t just let it alone. Part of my interest is almost a personal wish to find proof that the stones are genuine, however another reason is my respect for my friends here – if I did not care about your view I would not bother to discuss these stones at all. You may be aware that I have published a number of articles, and have always tried to encourage fellow prospectors and treasure hunters to pursue our common interests (though I have never published anything on the Lost Dutchman mine, I am considering it now) you will not find anything published by me which tries to discourage treasure hunters and prospectors – except in the cases of frauds and in the case of these Peralta stones, I am 99% convinced they are fraudulent. Some friends here have mentioned their level of intellect, which gives me reason to debate the points of these stones as a reasonable person examines the evidence before arriving at conclusions. However once a person is a ‘true believer’ it is a waste of time for both parties. I don’t think we have too many here who are SO convinced they are real or fraudulent that they will not look at new evidence or argument.

I would like to see some evidence of the Mexican, Spanish or Jesuit mines reported (here) to be in the Superstitions. I have been asked why, since we know there were Peraltas in the Bradshaws, that I do not assume there were Peraltas in the Superstitions. I know we MUST make assumptions when treasure hunting, however I prefer NOT to make assumptions when it is possible to find evidence (documented). With the Superstitions, we know that region was a very dangerous one for both Anglo and Spaniard up until 1886 (Geronimo surrendered) and few reasonable men were willing to risk their necks by venturing into the area – especially since the region is NOT one that appears promising for gold, silver or other valuable minerals. Jacob Waltz was an exception, he was apparently fearless of Apaches, though his partner Wiser was not so fortunate. Even the local Indian tribes were very hesitant about entering the area, though some did (as in the party of what were most likely Pimas found massacred in Massacre Field) it will take more than someone saying they were in there to convince me (especially a Mexican or Spaniard) and especially when we know that Peraltas went elsewhere – if they truly had secret gold mines in the Superstitions during the period of the Mexican war, it does not make sense that they would not return there instead of going elsewhere. Again, especially after 1886 when there were no more wild Apaches haunting the mountains watching for the unwary.

The statement has been made that the Spanish and Mexicans were “all over” the entire area, and this statement is un-warranted. Yes Spanish explorers did penetrate very far into the interior of what is today the United States, however they did NOT explore every mountain range and every area – it would be far too long to list here but a large number of very rich mineral deposits were discovered by the Anglos, AFTER the Mexicans and Spanish had had centuries of ‘possession’ of the regions and never discovered the minerals – we need only look at the tremendous California gold strikes made in 1848 and afterwards, with gold visible on the surface of the ground to see that the Spanish/Mexicans had definitely NOT penetrated everywhere and had mines/prospects everywhere. In the case of the Superstitions, there is no reason to believe that Spanish or Mexicans were in fact mining there, though there are records of the finding of old Spanish/Mexican mines in other ranges even north of there. So I need to see solid proof that someone found old Spanish/Mexican mines there before I can believe they had any in the Superstitions, not just some old tale and especially not the tale from Waltz.

Do I believe there are in fact lost, incredibly rich gold mines in the Superstitions? Yes, it is possible to document two of them! Both date to the period AFTER Arizona had become part of the USA. Is it possible there are secret lost Peralta gold mines there too? Yes it is possible but this is not supported by evidence so I would not personally go search for any Peralta mines there. What about these so-called Peralta stones? I don't think they are genuine, not as a group. The "heart" stone does appear to be ancient, however I strongly suspect that it is totally unrelated to the other three stones, and not related to anything in the Superstitions at all, in fact it may predate Spanish arrival in the Americas! (the white "cross" on it notwithstanding, this appears to be a later addition and we also know that some Amerindians in Mexico used the 'cross' symbol well before the arrival of Christians) It may even be Aztec, remember a central part of their sacrificial rites to their gods involved the cutting out of human hearts to present to the 'god'.

Need a starting point to try using the maps? Look at your own image, you posted on another thread here:

Still say you can't use them as maps due to the lack of a starting point? Why? I presumed that Mike has had training in how to navigate maps using simply a compass and landmarks, triangulating your positions from the landmarks - was I mistaken in assuming this? I had this training in the Army many years ago and have used it numerous times - it may not be as accurate as modern GPS satellite navigating but works pretty well.


Thank you for your patience, this was a long post but I like to address everything in one post rather than post six or seven shorter versions. I hope you all have a great day!
Your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Zeitgeist_Xero]

Whew, a lot of posts in the last 24 hours... thanks for clarification from each of you on your posistions...

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

The assumption that some of us treasure hunters have about the Peraltas and gold mines in the Superstitions, as well as the so-called Peralta stones reminds me of an old joke that really shows how things can go when we start making assumptions and using our “logic” to arrive at conclusions. Here is that old joke:
********************************************8

A young man visited the local university to decide which courses he would take. He went from classroom to classroom, as they were having an open house with the professors waiting in the classes to answer questions for the new prospective students. He spotted a class with the title “Logic” on the door, so his curiosity made him go into the class to ask a few questions of the professor.

“Hello Professor, what is this class about?” he asked

“This class is on logic – do you know how logic works?” the prof replied.

“Well no, how does it work?” he asked.

“Do you own a hedge trimmer?” the prof asked

“Yes I do.” Replied the student.

“Then it is logical to assume that you must have hedges that you use the trimmer on, right?” said the prof.

“Yes that’s right!” said the student

“Now since you have hedges to trim, it is logical to assume that you must own your home right?” said the prof.

“Yes, you are right on again!”said the student

“Since you own your home, it is logical to assume that you are married. And since you are likely married, it is safe to assume that you are heterosexual.” Said the prof.

“WOW professor that is amazing and right on! Sign me up for your class!” answered the student.

The student left the classroom, impressed with logic and happy to have signed up for such a class. As he was leaving, another student stopped him, in sight of the door to the class with the sign “LOGIC”. “Say pal, that class you just came out from, ‘logic’; what is that about?” the other student asked.

“Why it is the most amazing thing! Say, I will show you how logic works, using only a few simple questions. Do you own a hedge trimmer?” the first student asked the second.

“No, I sure don’t.” answered the second student.

“Then you must be gay!” replied the first student.
*************************************************

I hope that got a few laughs, if you had not heard it before. There is some risk when we start making assumptions about Peraltas and tales of their lost mines in the Superstitions, and especially with things like stone maps which could be fraudulent.

Oroblanco

"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving taxicabs and cutting hair."—George Burns

 

[gollum]

Hey Roy,

Okay, here we go.

First, the Jesuit Mines. The greatest majority of mines were indeed owned and operated by the Spanish. The only mines I used for examples of known (but not admitted to) Jesuit Mission Mines were Tayopa and Tumacacori. Those were most definitely not operated by the Spanish, Mestizos, or Indians. They were run by the Jesuit Order, and worked by the Indians. All evidence of their mining activities were hidden from the Spanish (one of the reasons the estancias were so far from the actual mission/mine site).

As for the article in "Arizona Highways" magazine from 2005 (should be easy to find). Not long after seeing that post, I received an email from someone who had contacted them regarding their examination of the stone maps. Here is what they sent. One of the things that you mention (that we have argued about in the past as well) regards their being buried. There is very good evidence now, that the stones were very possibly stolen from a mission in Arizpe (Mexico), and not dug up as the story says.

"Dr. Jenny Adams says:



“There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in he open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery”.



Anyone that has even casually looked the original stones has observed a lot of small abrasions all over the face of all of them. Ignoring that, how would she expect abrasions to be put on the surface of the stones if they lay still or buried? I always thought abrasions were caused by friction when two objects were rubbed together.



She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion. I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded?



She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldn’t any pointed object make a dimple? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen?



Lichen, weathering, discoloration and headstones in an old cemetery?



Lichen - Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners?



Weathering – How can you tell if an item has degraded from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time?



Discoloration – The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed.



Headstones – A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 or 50 years.



It does not take an expert with a PhD to see the flaws in this evaluation!







Dr. Elizabeth Miksa says:



“The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found”.



So what? I have never heard anyone claim that they were made where they were found.



Additionally… Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions, has stated for years in his lectures that both types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them.



Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones. Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to be, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has, in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believes that they originated in the 1751 time period regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with other documents from that time period?


Personally , I feel intellectually insulted by the elementary level conclusions formed by these so-called experts in their field. The flaws in their methodology are obvious to even the amateur bystander. "

The James Ossuary is engraved in Aramaic.

When I say preponderance of the evidence, it is not biased, it is just that. A preponderance of the evidence. The head of UC Redlands Geology Dept, actually did tests on the stone maps. He had possession of them to do the tests. Whatever tests he did, were good enough for the FBI to conclude that they were sufficient to present in court as to them being at least 100 years old in 1964. If the FBI had concluded that the stones were modern fakes (which would have meant that Professor Dana had concluded they were modern fakes), I would give that the same weight I give the conclusion they gave! On several occasions, you have stated that I am biased towards them being real. I started on the fence. I saw a lot of evidence both for and against them being real. Just so happens, that in the last two months, the documents, pictures, and other evidence I have received has swayed me to think they are most likely authentic.

The experts you site did a cursory examination of them while they were at the museum. Professor Dana had possession of them at UC Redlands, and had use of any and all equipment the University possessed to do any tests he required.

Again, I have to apologize for something. When this started, I knew a version of the story I thought to be true, based on several books and magazine articles I had read. As things progressed, what I knew to be real has changed from time to time, based on evidence received. The fact that I posted something a month ago while researching this does not necessarily mean that I believe the same thing today.

ONCE AGAIN, what you quote me as saying, is what I thought to be true, based on the information I had at the time. Since that post, I have received documentation that puts some of that statement in doubt. That statement was based on information from TE Glover's book on the LDM. Glover did not have access to some of the information that has come to light since it's publication in 1998. Someone on this forum has done extensive research into the life and family history of Travis Tumlinson. If he wishes to add to this discussion, I would welcome his input.

There is ZERO evidence to say that the dead on the massacre grounds were Pima Indians. When Sgt Edwards went back to the site (his compatriots did not. They only saw the remains froim horseback), he found a fully dressed skeleton under a bush in western clothes, with a cowhide pouch containing gold ore. That is the only evidence of who was killed there. From that, you conclude that he was a white who travelled with Indians. It would be MORE logical to conclude that the entire group was anglo (or Hispanic). There are NO stories about groups of Pimas being massacred by Apache there, but there is a family history of the Peraltas that states the greatest part of the mining expedition was massacred by Apache, and one of the few survivors (Pedro Peralta), who came back to Sonora and told the story. There are NO reported mass killings of any American Mining Parties in the area. So, we have one piece of hard evidence (dead body dressed in western clothing), and one circumstantial story by a survivor of the massacre (Pedro), but you chose to believe a supposition (without ANY basis in fact, either hard or circumstantial), that it was a band of Pimas killed by the Apache. You were correct when you stated that when a person is set in their beliefs,that they will ignore any evidence to the contrary!

The map you reposted was drawn by Chuck Kenworthy. The landmarks are his (I believe I referenced that in the other post), not mine. One thing showed to me after posting that, was that Picket Post Mountain (lower right), is actually to the South of Queen Creek. Looks like Chuck Kenworthy was wrong with his interpretation.

Not the Museum itself, but I was told that the former director of the museum had used the maps to try and find where they led. I don't recall his name. I looked for it in my emails, but can't find it yet.

Best,

Mike

 

[rochha]

Billy, Legend Hunter, Black Beard, Wyatt Westwood, Billy Crypto, Ronnie Kelso, Treasure Guru, Arizona Bill, Wyatt Bill, Heidi II, Jan, and the rest of the loonie’s upstairs.

Instead of spreading fertilizer here you should try spreading it on own your front yard, you might get better results. You say you have stuff on me that is not so pretty and your closing in on me………….bring it on a$$ wipe. You say I illegally dug on an archaeological site. If it was an archaeological site why does a real estate company own the land instead of the state and why is there a high school sitting on most of the site now? It was an archaeological site in the 50’s. Every thing I am saying can easily be verified, but then, you already knew that. You tried pulling this crap in the ldm forum; only the one thing you did not count on was Mike ( Gollum ) being in contact with Gary Oliver. This in turn proved everything you were saying about me was a lie. You are a proven liar! That is why you deleted all of your slanderous bull$hit you posted about me. You’re just pissed because I exposed you for using another one of your many aliases in that forum for your own egotistical gain. You’re not very good at using alias’s sometimes; your ego gives you away.

You know full well that I did in FACT have a written contract and permission with the real estate company that owned the land. Once you found out that I did have permission to be there I noticed you didn’t waste anytime getting out your metal detector and start detecting around the trenches. I am not sure if you can legally do that on an archaeological site. Which would land you in hot water as well; I’ll have to check that out.

The only ka ka I see is what comes out of your nutcase mind. You can take your lies and your egotistical crap and shove it in your “ Golden Skull of the Silver Backbone “ .

When I read your theory on the Peralta Stones I laughed so hard my sides hurt. Then it dawned on me, the last time I had laughed that hard was when I heard your plans on the Kino Treasure Hunting shades ( Kino Shades as you referred to them as ) you were going to manufacture and sell to treasure hunters. You know, the ones with infra red capabilities because as you claim Kino wore rose colored shades that had infra red capabilities.

By the way, why is that quote running across the top of one of your posts? Is it there for the same reason that when you make a post you have to have it in bold italic and have the format different than anybody else? What’s the matter, not enough recognition in your diet?

So, how is it going in trying to find or have another Big Foot sighting? Did you ever get anywhere with your Big Foot Busters website? How many members did you end up getting? Have you been back to Geronimo’s time portal lately? You know the place you claim to have lost some time at.

Did you ever successfully back door Di Sarno, you know the guy that confided in you about his project over by Rock Corral Canyon. The one you wanted me to raise money for a helicopter ride so you could find what he was working on and beat him to the punch. You remember him don’t you? The guy from Finders Keepers that successfully got a treasure trove permit to work in that canyon who lives in Tumacacori.

Still feel you know where the Arc of the Covenant is located at here in Arizona?

So, were you a consultant on the Da Vinci code movie with Tom Hanks? I mean if your so good at breaking codes I’m sure a movie like that would have appreciated your input.

Did the guy from the University ever get back to you on the photo’s you sent to him claiming to have found one of Coronado’s campsite? Probably not huh!

I see that no one has responded to your horse head photo that you claim authenticates the Peralta Stones……so, what’s next, TV commercials?

How’s the Legendary and Famous status coming? Did you ever get an actor to play you in the movie yet?

“ I am everywhere and I am now where “. I always new you were lost but not that bad.

You need some serious mental help.

Rochha

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,

Mike, it appears that you have misunderstood some of what I posted. Perhaps my language has not been clear. Lets start with this statement, quote

From that, you conclude that he was a white who travelled with Indians.

end quote

Now that is not what I said in earlier posts. What I said was that it was POSSIBLE this was an unfortunate white traveling with Indians, it is also PROBABLE that it was simply an Indian who happened to have gold teeth. You choose to accept the opinion of the sergeant, and dismiss the opinions of the other two who were present when the massacre victims were found, that they were most likely Pimas. The fact that we have NO report of any missing party of Mexicans (or Anglos for that matter) in the Superstitions lends support to the idea that the victims were more likely Indians, and not Mexicans or Anglos. Just a side note here, you mentioned that we have no record of any missing party of Pimas, well that should not be too surprising as most Indians did not keep written records, most history being kept by oral traditions – if none survived the attack to tell the tale it is unlikely we will have a Pima tale of a missing party. To continue (not going in any particular order here)

When Sgt Edwards went back to the site (his compatriots did not. They only saw the remains froim horseback), he found a fully dressed skeleton under a bush in western clothes, with a cowhide pouch containing gold ore.

You do know that Indians did pick up gold and use it to trade, right? Finding a pouch with gold in it doesn’t mean that the victim must be Mexican or Anglo, only that the victim had gold on his person when he died.

There is ZERO evidence to say that the dead on the massacre grounds were Pima Indians

You are aware that the commissioned officer and other trooper who were among the three who found the massacre victims stated they thought the remains were of Pimas, right? We actually have nothing tangible today that can be said to be either undeniably Indian OR European.

…there is a family history of the Peraltas that states the greatest part of the mining expedition was massacred by Apache, and one of the few survivors (Pedro Peralta), who came back to Sonora and told the story.

So the story from a Peralta, which is not documented prior to 1891, you accept as hard evidence, and also we do NOT have “hard evidence” in one set of human remains in “western clothing” all we have is the word of Sergeant Edwards that HE saw this – now I am not calling Sgt Edwards a ‘liar’ however it is absolutely possible that he was mistaken in his conclusions. I don’t understand WHY you choose to accept the conclusion of Edwards over that of the other two witnesses present – especially based on the statement of finding ONE set of remains in ‘western clothing’ – what the heck were all the rest, do we just ignore them? Let me point this up in another way. If you found a group of 20 human remains say in Iraq, (skeletal remains) and saw ONE of them had what appeared to be American clothing, while the rest looked like Bedouins, then found American coins in a pocket of the ONE set of remains that looked like it was American clothing, would you then conclude that this must have been a party of Americans you had found? Suppose you were not the finder but three soldiers were – an officer, a sergeant and a private – and we had a similar event with the officer and private saying it was a party of Bedouins while the sergeant said they were Americans; whom would you believe?

The map you reposted was drawn by Chuck Kenworthy.

Yes I am aware of that, however it is posted from YOUR post. I did not say that YOU personally drew up the map. You seem to have missed the point of the post – that is if you can work out some landmarks, it is possible to use the stones as maps using only a compass. How do you suppose the Tumlinsons and others ‘used’ them as maps? You are probably more capable in land navigation than they were, with your training, it seems logical that you should be able to use the stones as maps using your training and expertise.

Back to the ‘preponderance’ issue:

When I say preponderance of the evidence, it is not biased, it is just that. A preponderance of the evidence. The head of UC Redlands Geology Dept, actually did tests on the stone maps.

Now how do we KNOW that UC Redlands DID tests on the stones? All we have is a statement from Bob Corbin, that an FBI man told him that they “believed” the stones were “at least 100 years old”. We don’t KNOW that any tests were actually done, in fact it might have been simply an examination, just like what the experts from Desert Archaeology did. For that matter, did UC Redlands even have a Geology department? However by your post, it is readily apparent that you dismiss the conclusions of three experts that the stones were bogus. So, when we have Father Polzer say the stones are frauds, Dr.Adams, Dr. Miksa and Prof Thiel say they are modern fakes, why they are all wrong, biased, flawed, but we have the word of Bob Corbin that some FBI guy told him that they ‘believed the stones were at least 100 years old’ and that prof. Dana and two colleagues from UC Redlands “Geology Dept” MUST have done all sorts of tests on them, why that is the gospel. I begin to see a pattern here…

Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to be…

Dr Miksa from the 1847 time period? What, a cheap shot at the doctor now? For what purpose, to cast aspersions on her finding? Goodness gracious. Why would you wish to take a shot at Dr Miksa? Simply because you don’t like her conclusions about these stones? Or do you know her personally and have other reasons to cast aspersions?

To further support your contention that everyone who had possession of the stones, DID try using them as maps, you made this statement:

Not the Museum itself, but I was told that the former director of the museum had used the maps to try and find where they led. I don't recall his name.

Now if I were to make a statement like that, which presumes you have to trust my word that something occurred, would you take that as gospel? Assuming that the former director did try using the stones as maps (I don’t have any reason to doubt your word) does that change the fact that the museum has not launched any such search? The fact that so many have tried using the stones as maps and found no treasures doesn’t make any difference to you?

I have seen several people state that one of the stones is made of quartz, however none of them appear to be quartz to me and I have seen a lot of quartz. Quartz rock is very hard and brittle, not well suited to carving. If memory serves, someone who had looked at the stones in hand stated that one was chalcedony, which is considerably softer than quartz and would be easier to work with. There is chalcedony in the Superstitions, and sandstones; choose whatever you would prefer about where the stones originated – that much is not THE deciding point of whether they are genuine or fraudulent. What you have not answered is puzzling me though.

What I am referring to is two-fold. First, why does it not trouble you that the inscription is unlike any known, genuine inscription?

Second, we have had people making claims that there were Spanish and/or Mexican mines already found and worked in the Superstitions, “many” of them, yet when I ask for proof of this statement, I get….no reply. It should be easy to prove me wrong, if there were old Spanish and/or Mexican mines in the Superstitions which were already discovered and worked, to provide some evidence to support that statement.

I also continue to have problems with just why the Peraltas would NOT go back to their secret mines in the Superstitions. I know Hollywood (“Lust for Gold”) version has a Peralta return to one of the secret mines and then is killed by Waltz, but in reality there is no record of any Peraltas in the Superstitions prior to the death of Waltz. Let me ask you, if you had a secret rich gold mine, why would you go off into other regions to prospect and mine? It just doesn’t make sense to me – especially when we know that the Peraltas in the Bradshaws were also attacked and raided by Apaches almost constantly. So the obvious answer, that it was just too dangerous with the Apaches there, also obviously didn’t prevent the Peraltas from venturing into the Bradshaws, where they were also attacked repeatedly.

This whole story is a case of multiple choices at many points. We have no record of any Peraltas in the Superstitions, not prior to the death of Waltz 1891; to the skeptic this points to the tale of secret lost Peralta mines there being pure legend; to the believer it doesn’t matter, as they simply didn’t record their mines and explorations and riches. We have no record of the Peraltas selling any gold prior to their mine opening in the Bradshaws, but to the believer this doesn’t matter because after all they were massacred with a huge load of the gold ore. The massacre victims were thought to be a group of Pimas by two of the three men who found them; this doesn’t matter to the believer because ONE of the three said he found ONE of the remains dressed in western clothing, and had a gold tooth and gold in a pouch. We have no record of any large party of Mexicans or Anglos that went missing in the Superstitions in that time period, but to the believer that doesn’t matter because after all, the whole expedition was “secret” and launched from southern Sonora. The date on the stone maps, 1847, puts it right in the middle of the Mexican-American war, which would mean that the large, armed party of Mexican men would have had to slip past Mexican army outposts watching all the roads and trails (heck they might well have gotten ‘drafted’ if they were caught) then past American army outposts also watching all the roads and passes, (and to the Americans, a large party of armed Mexican men with a string of pack mules or burros would have appeared very suspicious, especially since they would be marching NORTH from Sonora) but to the believer this detail doesn’t matter because the Peraltas were very good at slipping past soldiers.

Then this large party of armed Mexican men arrive in the Superstitions, a known hideout for wild and hostile Apaches and set to working on their group of secret mines. This relatively large group of men doesn’t leave any trace of a mining camp, but for the believer this doesn’t matter because remember the Peraltas were expert in doing things secretly. They accumulate a huge fortune in gold, and decide to make up a set of STONE maps to return? The fact that a parchment or leather or wood map would have been far easier, less time-consuming and far more portable (remember sandstone is pretty brittle) doesn’t matter to the believer, because we have these stone maps so that proves it, plus they hid the maps in a hole in the ground (one version, now we have another version that the stone maps were stolen from a church in Mexico) and the party gets massacred. The fact that (as far as I could learn) NO ONE has ever found ANY old Mexican or Spanish or Jesuit mines in the Superstitions doesn’t matter, because after all either the Peraltas or the Apaches must have hidden them, superbly well.

A side note here but there have been thousands of people poring over the Superstitions since 1891, and it seems that these thousands of people completely failed to locate a single one of the eight to eighteen secret Peralta mines. It seems more logical (to me anyway) that so many failing to find one of two mines, which WERE carefully hidden, is more likely to be the case than so many failing to find one of EIGHT or more. Just a mathematical factor that doesn’t matter to the believers.

(We already covered the two possible interpretations of the massacre victims so will skip ahead.) One lucky Peralta survives the massacre and….DOESN’T report it to ANY authority. This lucky fellow NEVER bothers to return to any of the secret mines, nor does ANY descendant ever after. We first learn of this tale after the death of Jacob Waltz. The fact that we know of dozens of people who claimed to have survived massacres (look at how many claimed to have survived the Custer massacre for instance) doesn’t cast any shadow of doubt on the Peralta tale of course, for after all his name IS Peralta, a name never associated with any type of frauds right?

Your statement that suggests that I have ‘closed’ my mind to all evidence that supports the Peralta stones is not correct. I do at least try to weigh all the evidence presented. I don’t think that a rock-solid case has been presented to prove these Peralta stones are genuine, in fact the entire discussion has some resemblance to a civil court case and the similarities extend into making a decision as to whether they are genuine or fraudulent – in a civil case the decision is not “beyond a reasonable doubt” but rather a majority, or if you like a “preponderance”. Mike has stated several times that the preponderance of evidence is in support of the stones being genuine, well I hold that the preponderance of evidence is in support of the stones being fraudulent. Does this mean I am calling ANYONE a liar? Yes, the creators of the stones – but NOT those who are convinced they are genuine, they are just mistaken. Even the experts make mistakes.

I also don’t understand why the fact that several people have already used the stones as maps and found no secret mines or buried treasures is so flippantly ignored by those who are convinced the stones are genuine. Even so, let’s say the stones are genuine but that the treasure was already removed (another scenario proposed) then why should we expend our efforts and time pursuing them? I like to encourage fellow treasure hunters and prospectors, but not to encourage them to follow up on false leads. Our time on earth is limited and our free time to go out hunting treasure is even more limited, so I hate to see people waste this precious time on what I believe are mean frauds. If the pursuit is for the purpose of just having fun, and the seekers are having fun with it, then I have no problem with it – however to present them as “genuine” and encourage others to use them to search is not fair IMHO. It might be better to say that some feel they are genuine and some feel they are fraudulent. At least a newbie would then be 'walking into it' with fair warning.

I hope you all have a great day!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

"The secret of creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."--Albert Einstein

 

[gollum]

Roy,

You need to read the Edwards story. The two other Troopers with him, never got off of their horses, and just rode past. Edwards noticed a skull with a gold tooth as they rode by.

Edwards came back for a closer look. The two others did not. You are wrong when you say that Edwards based his opinion on the skull with the gold tooth. When he went back, and examined the skeletons more thoroughly (again, which the other two did not), at the periphiry of the battle site, he found a skeleton that still had it's clothes on. He figured the man must have crawled away wounded but unnoticed, and died under the bush where his skeleton was found. The skeleton was fully clothed in western clothes.

I give Sgt. Edwards' ideas more credence simply because he went back and looked more closely at the skeletons. The commissioned officewr and the other trooper just rode on. Wouldn't you tend to give more weight to the story of the person who had actually taken the time to return to the site, and closely examine the skeletons? Seems like the logical thing to do!

What do you mean undocumented prior to 1891? The Peralta Family history (and picture of Pedro Peralta which I posted) goes back to the time of the massacre. The picture of Pedro is from the 1870s. In a book entitled "Travels Through Mexico 1827" the Peraltas are referred to as a preeminent Sonoran Mining and cattle Family. After 1850, thewre is hardly any mention of them. That is easily reconciled with the family history of the massacre happening in 1847.

Actually, yes we do know the tests were done (another piece of evidence that I can't share as of yet). (One more time) The FBI came to their conclusions based on those tests. The SEC wanted the FBI to test the stones, but when they found out that tests had already been done on them, they (FBI) contacted Professor Dana at UC Redlands. They interviewed him, and found that the tests he conducted were the same ones that they would have done. They got Professor Dana to sign an affidavit stating his test results of the stones.

Regarding Dr. Miksa, you must not have read the paragraph preceding that "QUOTE". After mention was made on another forum about that subject, I was sent an email by a person who has a long history with the stones. That's why I colored the text blue, and put it in quotes so you would know that it was not me, but a CC of the email sent to the three Drs.

If you told me something and said that you knew it for certain to be a fact, yes I would take your word for it. We have had enough go rounds and correspondence that if you truly knew something for a fact, but had no hard evidence to back it up, I would take your word for it! The only exception to that would be if I had hard evidence to the contrary. Since all this crap started, and I have been on the receiving end of a lot of confidential information, and I understand that sometimes evidence can not be given for various reasons. There are a few people on the forums that I could take them on their word, and feel comfortable.

The Horse/Priest Stone is sandstone, and the trail map stones are sandstone, but I believe the Heart Stone is of a dark red granitic type rock.

You said something previously about the copies of the maps. I think I have said this before, but (more private info) Clarence Mitchell had a set of copies made when MOEL folded, so one of his partners could have two real and two repros, and Mitchell could have two real stones, and two copies. Nobody (that I know of) knows where the second set went. Mitchell's were donated to the Museum. This says that only two of the eight stones in the museum are authentic. The set that Mitchell had made were carved and not cast. I have also heard that the museum had a set of hand carved copies made before the mid 1980s (not verified). They definitely had a set of cast copies made in 1987.

In Robert E. Lee's Movie about the LDM, he shows one of the Peralta's Mines. I'll go through the movie soon, and get a screen shot of it. He used maps from the Peralta Family (I think) that led to the mine. If you have the movie, watch it. If not, I'll get a screen shot of it, and the details of the maps.

Please show me some of your KNOWN carvings that are unlike the stone maps..

You're kind of tough on poor Pedro aren't you? It's not just Pedro. After the date given in the family history, that family is mostly non-existant, before that, they were a pre-eminent Mining and cattle Family in Sonora. It's not just Pedro's word we're taking. I would think that after having the majority of your family massacred (most all the men), that you might never go back either.

See, your bias sticks out like a sore thumb! There's nothing anybody can say to youthat could make you believe that the stone maps are authentic (other than coming out of the mountains with a load of bullion). I see that no matter what I say, your eyes are closed. You have been of that opinion since this discussion started. That's why I took a contrary stance on the subject, but since the beginning, after seeing so much information that I have never seen before, I have concluded that they are most likely real. You, on the other hand, and tried to trivialize and ignore any of the evidence I have provided (your flippant dismissal of the Prof, Dana Tests, and the FBI statement in favor of a cursory examination by some other Professors still boggles me).

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

I've got a question - When did Redlands University ever have a Geology department? I can remember doing a search on that quite a long time ago, and I don't remember them having one.

Hey B,

Yes, UC Redlands DID have a Geology Dept. Professor Dana was the head of it. There is a scholarship named after him and one of his undergrad students. It's called the Chance/Dana Scholarship.

Here is a link to the scholarship info:

http://www.calstatela.edu/dept/geology/scholarship.htm#chance

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

Are you certain? I know that the other two geologists associated with the tests were Martin Stout and Prof Chance(who also have scholarships named after them). The website is administered by Cal State L.A. Professor Martin Stout was teaching at Cal State L.A., but I believe Prof Dana and Prof Chance taught at UC Redlands proper. I can't say that for a fact, but that was the assumption.

I also know that UC Redlands had it's own Geology Dept. I have spoken with a man who graduated with a degree in geology from UC Redlands.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Post script, as if that last post of mine wasn't long enough to bore the most determined reader to sleep!

First new business. Gollum wrote:
What do you mean undocumented prior to 1891?

I mean exactly what I said, that is there is no documentation of any Peraltas in the Superstitions, not that there were NO Peraltas ANYWHERE; in fact I found a whole family of Peraltas that I had never heard of among the volunteers who joined with deAnza's expedition to CA, that definitely passed through AZ in 1770s. I thought I had written that pretty clearly in my posts.

Am I biased about these stones? I am definitely becoming biased negatively about them, and with good reason. The name Peralta is not one that fills me with confidence in veracity, and I think you already know why. I have also admitted to having had a negative reaction to them on the very first sight some years ago, which possibly 'colored' my view of everything since. However it would NOT hurt my feelings to be proven wrong about them, in fact I would be thrilled to see someone find one of the legendary gold mines of Peraltas. I don't mind eating my words, if proven wrong. I don't care to see some neophytes head into the Superstitions and either get discouraged with treasure hunting (thinking it is all lies and quit) or worse get hurt or killed, without being aware that these stones are not viewed by ALL as being genuine. Hence my continued argument against the value of pursuing these stones as genuine maps to lost mines or buried treasures.

I have read Edwards story. What part of it is it that you wish me to re-read? That Sergeant Edwards concluded that the group was Mexicans? What if the one he found with gold teeth, with gold in a pouch, wearing western clothes, was in fact Mexican - okay then what were all the rest? They MUST have been the Peraltas, since ONE set of remains looked to be a Mexican? You don't see some of the leaps of logic necessary in accepting the whole Peralta legend and Peralta stones AS leaps of logic, but to me that is what it seems to be. I don't even mind making leaps of logic, under certain circumstances - as in, (for example) if you can document a part, then have a part that is un-documented, followed by a documented and prove-able part of a story, I don't mind making logical assumptions to fill in the un-documented part. However with the Peralta stones, we have to start making assumptions from the starting gun and make more as we go along, ending with.... no discovered treasures. Along the way, also, we do have 'experts' weighing in on whether the stones are genuine or not - with two different conclusions as far apart as you can get. You feel confident in accepting the Dana version, and toss that of Polzer and the experts from Desert Archaeology. You may be right, or you may be wrong. Without someone finding that 'end of the rainbow' treasure or absolute proof of a fraud, we cannot know.

I also wait to hear of some of these "many" Spanish and/or Mexican mines in the Superstitions, which have already been discovered and worked. I really would like to hear about them, and it would justify those statements made earlier.

A side note here but it appears that the "Geology Department" of UC is at the LA campus, not the Redlands campus - did Redlands formerly have such a department? Could the tests have been done at the LA campus instead? I know Mike has been hunting down the actual test results, perhaps the tests were done at a different site - LA?

Now as to 'new' business.....
First let me post an alternative map, despite the fact the one I had posted was simply to present an example I did not bother to try to find one that might work, just saw the one on an earlier post so will post a different one.

Yes it came from the Desertusa site, but at least is better than Chucks. A person with the ability to work with a compass (it is not that difficult to do, really) should be able to use the map to execute a search IN the Superstitions.

Now I want to address the stones themselves. I have mentioned several times that they just don't look right to me, and that the 'heart' stone may not belong with the other three. I also suspect that the heart stone has been altered, in order to better 'fit' it with the three sandstone maps. Look at this:


(hope this works)

Note the area of the stone engraving which is circled in yellow (if this post even works!) the grooves here, which 'mate' up with grooves on the heart map (sandstone) do look considerably lighter in color, which suggests (to me anyway, having some experience in examining stone inscriptions) that this portion of the engraving is considerably NEWER than the rest. We see no Spanish writing on the heart stone either, which doesn't prove that this stone doesn't belong with the others, but if we had some Spanish writing here it would help to support the idea that it was created by Spanish.

Yes I am well aware of the DVD out there which purports to have the 'fifth' stone that goes with this set, and that it leads to some of Montezuma's treasure in Utah. To myself, this sounds like some pretty extravagant claims on their part, and I am not calling them a pack of liars or hoaxers, nor am I trying to support the idea that the heart stone actually leads to Aztec treasures in Utah. However that 'qualifying' said, I do suspect that this heart stone IS Amerindian in origin, and coming from south of the border, NOT from Arizona or Utah.

If we ignore what appears to be later additions to the Heart stone engravings, we have symbols which are known among Amerindian symbols, such as the zig-zag that changes to a slight curving shape (the 'feathered serpent Avanyu' OR lightning bolt OR snake) the arrow, six oblongs, (actually these six shapes also appear to be later additions) and so forth. If we include the questionable markings that appear lighter, it still cannot be ruled out that this is Amerindian in origins and meanings. Trying to interpret the meanings of the symbols if they are Amerindian is quite a problem, for if we do not know which tribe or culture made them, the meanings for symbols are different even between neighboring tribes.

If the Heart stone IS Amerindian in origin, there probably is not another stone 'tablet' to mate it up with but possibly a carved depression in a large boulder that it is intended to fit into. It may not be a "map" at all, but a sacred object with mystical meanings. In fact, considering that there is an added-on white 'cross' that appears to be Christian in origins could be a clue to the history of the stone!

If the stone is in fact of Amerindian religious significance, and was discovered by early Spanish missionaries, it would not be surprising if the priests seized the stone and deliberately broke it in two, adding the Christian cross as a symbol of superiority over the Amerindian "superstitions" (as the missionaries referred to their religious beliefs).

I've been following this subject in several forums now and see that we are repeating what occurred in the 'thelostdutchmangoldmine.com' forum - over there it seemed to have started off well, then degenerated into flame wars and even threats. (Yes I have been 'lurking' there and elsewhere, seems that Heidi was able to detect my presense!) I hope that the bad feelings can be patched up, for we treasure hunters have much in common (despite our differences) and are a minority among the population - for the sake of keeping our pursuit legal, we need to 'stick together' and not divide up into rival groups. There are 'enviro' nut groups out there who are working to put a stop to treasure hunting altogether, and they can profit by our being divided.

Thank you for your indulgence, and I hope you all have a great day!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

"USA Today has come out with a new survey: Apparently three out of four people make up 75 percent of the population."--David Letterman.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Randy - no I had not noticed that the lines don't quite match before you mentioned it. Of course I can't say this proves they are frauds, but it is another question mark.

These danged stones have even pestered me in my sleep - especially after studying the photos for a while. Anyone else have that happen? What struck me first was the similarity to the 'Wagoner map' but after re-looking at the heart stone I started to think it might not even be related to the rest. I don't know what type of rock that stone is, have heard that it is quartz and that it is chalcedony (though I have never seen a piece of chalcedony quite like that either) the danged thing just keeps puzzling me.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

Another post script - Mike, am I correct in assuming that the tests of prof Dana at UC Redlands that concluded the stones were at least 100 years old, is a major point in 'proving' they are genuine, for you? I have tried to point out how difficult it is for even the best experts to make calculations about the age of inscribed stones, and pointed up some of their more 'spectacular' mistakes, but that has not affected your opinion of Dana's conclusions. Mike, ever read what your friend Jim Hatt wrote on the dating of the stones? He wrote, quote:

Some people think that dating the stone maps would be a simple procedure of modern science that would determine how old they are. Dating the stones themselves would in fact be quite simple using the Potassium-Argon method described below. But the results would only indicate how long ago mother earth formed the rocks that the stone maps were made from. Millions or Billions of years ago. The Radiocarbon dating method cannot be used because the stone maps are not composed of Organic Materials.

What we need to know is when the inscriptions were carved into the stone maps. The only way of doing this would be through scientific analasys of any organic materials deposited in the grooves of the inscriptions since the time they were cut. Since we are concerned with organic materials you might jump to the conclusion that the Radiocarbon method (described below) could be used for doing this. It will not work on the stone maps because the Radiocarbon process is only accurate on items between the ages of approximately 600 (10% of the halflife of carbon 14) and 6,000 years old due to standard statistical deviation in the rate of decay and halflife of carbon 14.

Therfore radiocarbon dating method could supply usefull information about the age of any organic materials in the inscriptions on the stone maps, only if the inscriptions on the stone maps were believed to be over 600 and less than 6,000 years old, and that could have only been done immediately after the stone maps were found, before they were handled in anything less that sanitary conditions. (Which introduces the possibility of cross contamination by forign material from any time period in history) Since these maps have been handled by an unknown number of people in an unknown number of different conditions, and known to have been transported all over the country under unknown conditions, there is NO POSIBILITY of gaining any usefull information about the age of the inscriptions on the stone maps in the 21st Century by any known radioisotope method of dating. (Even if they had met the first criteria of being at least 600 years old).

There is only one method that could possibly determine the age of the inscriptions on the stone maps and that would be by an indrect method. That is to determine where they lead you to, and discover artifacts in that area that can be indisputably linked to the stone maps and dated. Find the mines or the treasure they refer to, and you may have a chance to find out when the stone maps were created. Short of that, the debate over how old the inscriptions on the stone maps are will most likely never end. end quote

Now you have mentioned in earlier posts that you respect Mr Hatt, yet continue to accept the proposition from prof Dana and his colleagues that the stone is at least 100 years old (in 1960s). Does Mr Hatt's statements about the dating of the Peralta stones affect your view of their age?


"There comes a time in every rightly constructed boy's life when he has a raging desire to go somewhere and dig for hidden treasure." --Henry A. Kissinger

 

[gollum]

Come on Roy,

You can't just pick an arbitrary section of a line and say it's newer than the rest of the same line! You would need to show that IF that little piece of the line is newer, where did the line go to originally? There is no continuation of the line in any direction other than through the spot you claim is newer. If that piece of the line is newer, then the entire line is newer(see pic).

There are many reasons why it might APPEAR newer.

Yes, Jim has sent me that statement. You know the email to the three doctrs who said the stones were fakes, that you took offense to the treatment of Dr. Miksa? Guess who wrote that email? You got it! Jim Hatt.

Now that is not what I said in earlier posts. What I said was that it was POSSIBLE this was an unfortunate white traveling with Indians, it is also PROBABLE that it was simply an Indian who happened to have gold teeth. You choose to accept the opinion of the sergeant, and dismiss the opinions of the other two who were present when the massacre victims were found, that they were most likely Pimas. The fact that we have NO report of any missing party of Mexicans (or Anglos for that matter) in the Superstitions lends support to the idea that the victims were more likely Indians, and not Mexicans or Anglos. Just a side note here, you mentioned that we have no record of any missing party of Pimas, well that should not be too surprising as most Indians did not keep written records, most history being kept by oral traditions – if none survived the attack to tell the tale it is unlikely we will have a Pima tale of a missing party. To continue (not going in any particular order here)

Now, where do I start with that statement? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Let's see, one skeleton with a gold tooth, and another dressed in western clothes with a cowhide pouch. Why don't you ask yourself (or anybody else) what is MORE PROBABLE? How many Indians had gold teeth versus how many whites or hispanics had gold teeth? What is MORE PROBABLE? How many Indians wore western style clothes versus how many whites and hispanics wore western clothes? Sgt. Edwards found mining tools among the remains. What is MORE PROBABLE? How many Indians were miners versus how many whites and hispanics were miners?

When you talk about MORE PROBABLE, you state "if none survived to tell the tale, it is unlikely we will have a Pima tale" Really? Do you think the entire tribe was killed in this massacre? Don't you think it would be MORE PROBABLE that the pimas would have a tale about the LARGE group of their tribe that went off and bever came back? Don't you think that the tribe they were from would send out a search party to look for the missing Indians?

Look at your MORE PROBABLE Conclusions with the mind of someone else, and you will see that they are the LEAST PROBABLE.

You state that YOU FOUND some Peraltas that went to California with de Anza in the 1770s. If you read back a couple of pages, you will find that I told you about that group of Peraltas, and that they made their way back to Arizona in the 1860s.Miguel Peralta was the one who sold the Peralta Land Grant to Dr. Willing (sound familiar).

About your UC Redlands ideas. YES, UC Redlands DID have a geology dept. It is possible that UC Redlands' Geology Dept. was off campus at CSULA. I don't think so, though. I believe that CSULA had it's own Geology Dept. Like I told the Mrs, I have spoken to a man who graduated with a geology degree from UC Redlands (I didn't ask him if the school was there or at CSULA).

We are in complete agreement that the fifth stone and the stone maps' connection to Utah is BS.

Please show me ONE example of an Amerindian Heart Shaped Stone?

If you notice that the heart is harder than the rest of the stones (granitic vs sandstone), don't you think that the carvings would be shallower? The line is lighter in that one small section, what about the rest of the line? Like I said earlier, you can't just pick out one section of a longer line and say that part is lighter. By that logic, look at the lower mountain range engraving! That's just as light as the section of line you pointed out. Is that newer as well?

Mike

 

[gollum]

good one Roy! Also, did you notice that the heart line dosen't really match up with the line on the map? They intersect, but don't seem to be a single flowing trail as the angles are off. I've often wondered if the trail map, or at least the top map was modified or is an unaccurate copy of the original...

Hey Randy,

One thing to keep in mind is that when MOEL broke up, a second set of stone maps were made for Mitchell. He took two original stones, and two copies. One of his partners took two original stones, and two copies. I would be willing to bet that Mitchell's two originals were the Horse/Priest Stone, and the Heart Stone.

Best,

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello friends,
This will be yet another long one, so I ask your patience.

Gollum wrote:
you will find that I told you about that group of Peraltas

Sorry my friend but no I found this particular group of Peraltas myself. You may have posted info on them but I personally found them listed among the volunteers who joined deAnza. In fact there was even a brief statement from Mrs Peralta saying they hoped they would succeed in CA and her husband would make a good soldier.

Mike you accept that Robert E Lee movie which shows an old mine and claims it is a Peralta mine as "proof"? Sorry but no, that is just another old prospect tunnel, unless you can find the name "Peralta" in it somewhere there is no way to tie this old tunnel in to the Peraltas and it is probable that old tunnel was done by ambitious folks searching for the lost Dutchman mine. I think you would find that bureau of mines study (MLA 136-82) interesting - it even has charts of the known tunnels, drifts and shafts they documented, none of which was older than 1872. Want to see known, genuine Spanish inscriptions that are unlike the so-called Peralta stones? Look on this very thread, I have posted a couple here already. Do they resemble the Peralta stones to you? You don't need to take my word for it either, you can find a number of Spanish inscriptions (photos) on the internet, inscriptions which the experts have agreed are genuine. Compare them to the photos of the Peralta stones yourself. If you know of one, a genuine Spanish or Mexican inscription that is un-doubted by the experts, that does resemble the Peralta stones, please post them here?

Now you are being a bit arbitrary about which is more likely - for you must know we have no records of how many people were miners in either group. Remember that many Indians were forced to work on and in mines by the Spanish under the forced labor law, and that missionaries (both Jesuits and Franciscans) encouraged their 'charges' to go out and locate deposits of minerals. You also seem to ignore the implications, even if we accept that the one set of remains IS Mexican, then what are the rest? Are we supposed to assume they are all Mexicans, based on ONE set of remains? Is it not possible that these unfortunate people might have been mining in a completely different area, just were attacked while passing through the Superstitions? See what I mean? There are several possibilities with many issues concerning these Peralta stones and the legends of Peralta lost mines, and we have to choose which seems most likely. Even then, the "most likely" answer is not necessarily the correct one! Some pretty unlikely things have happened in history! As to whether the Pimas would have a record of a party that was massacred - well in fact they DO have oral tales of numerous battles with their hereditary enemies the Apaches - unfortunately it is not an easy task to attribute an exact date (and sometimes location as well) to oral histories. You are also aware that the Pimas were very superstitious about that place, which some have said is because the tribe has suffered numerous attacks and defeats there.

There are several reasons why some of the lines might appear lighter in color, later alteration is one possibility. They might have been 'scraped' clean in an attempt to better make out the design, which would not mean it was falsified, just a heavy hand in the cleaning process. However it is another question mark.

Yes I thought that 'shot' at Dr Mikla was un-warranted, whoever made it. You don't see me posting shots at Professor Dana, saying how gullible Dana is or some other aspersion simply because I think his/her conclusions could be mistaken. However, Mike, you didn't answer my question - do the remarks by Mr Hatt affect your view of the conclusion (of Dana) that the stones are over 100 years old? Mike may prefer the scenario which will fit with the stones being genuine and Peraltas, but I disagree that this is the more likely scenario of the possibilities.

You also either ignored or missed my question, relating to some remarks made earlier - about "many" Spanish and or Mexican mines in the Superstitions being found. If you would rather not address the question I will understand, it is time consuming to hunt up things just to prove points for no purpose other than to prove points. I just have never seen anything to support that idea, other than:

• The statements of Waltz on his deathbed, (questionable because of his audience) and,
• The old arrastras on the fringes of the Superstitions (which may be related to mines not IN the Superstitions, such as in the Goldfield district which did have some signs of old Spanish workings when first discovered)

-in my own research and actual legwork IN the Superstitions there are indeed numerous old workings, but none I am aware of can be dated older than 1890. Of course I never did find either the Dutchman's mine or the other ledge of different ore which is prove-able, perhaps one of these two is Spanish or Mexican?

I sited a source (MLA by US Bureau of Mines) of a study done on the minerals in the Superstitions and their experts were unable to find any evidence of any mining activity in the Superstitions prior to 1872. I don't know what they found that could be dated to 1872. This study however was done prior to the Mercury Vapor test which showed there is a hidden gold deposit in the Superstitions, which might be deeply buried. I have that test here somewhere (unfortunately in a pile of boxes I suspect as it was not in any of the file cabinets) but on this point I feel safe to say as much as I did - that the mercury vapor test showed indications of a rich gold deposit, which may be deeply buried. I think that test might even be online somewhere, if someone cares enough to hunt it up.

I now know of a "fifth" stone that might be related to the so-called Peralta stones - it is online, however it was not apparently found with the others so might well NOT be related. We have debated whether the stones are valid or frauds, but not much into the actual symbols and markings on them, so I want to delve into this.

The two names on the stones, Miguel and Pedro, have been taken to mean "Peralta" by some folks. There are some wild theories out there about other possible meanings - like Pedro is short for 'piedra de oro' gold ore and so forth. What if the name Pedro is not an abbreviation NOR as in "Pedro Peralta"? Remember, (assuming the stones are genuine) that a great majority of Mexicans were also Catholics and many were quite devout believers. What about the other name, Miguel? The word "DON" is not insribed adjacent to either name too.

The mis-spelled words also can be taken several ways - one being this shows ineptitude on the part of the hoaxer, another being simply that the engraver was not well educated, another being that this is intentional, as a part of a 'code'. Why those particular mis-spellings? Why are the zig-zag lines, changed into gently curving lines? The dots too can have more than one possible meaning - are they campsites, spots where you are to take line-of-sight 'calculations' along the route, sites of lost mines or buried treasures, or something entirely different? There are those six oblong designs on the heart stone, taken by at least one theorist to be "zeros" that are intended to couple up with the '1" on the heart map to mean one million - that theorist felt this was related to the Bible. Are they zeros, or something else?

My reason for wishing to get into the markings more deeply is that this is what an epigrapher would do - when there is a question as to whom created a particular marking, it sometimes is helpful to study the markings and compare them to known examples - if you are lucky, you will find a set of markings (or letters etc) that matches up pretty well and you can then make a conclusion as to whom is responsible for making the inscription. I could not find any Mexican or Spanish inscription quite like these Peralta stones - though there are similarities to some Amerindian inscriptions, it is not common to find Indian inscriptions that also use Spanish. Could the creator of the stones have been an Indio, with a minimal education in Spanish?

At nearly every point concerning these Peralta stones, whenever we find answers (often several different possible answers) we are presented with still more questions. As Jim Hatt said, no matter whether you are a believer or a dis-believer, we are somehow attracted to discuss them. I hope that no one is getting ruffed feathers over my views of these undeniably mysterious stones, they are really interesting and it seems possible that an open discussion might lead to some answers. Yikes what am I saying - heck we already have lots of answers, the problem is in making them fit enough to remove doubts!

One last point for this long-winded post - what if the stones are NOT related to the Superstitions, but ARE related to another region? Some have proposed the area around Tumacacori, another points to Utah - have we explored these possibilities fully? I have not tried an overlay of the Peralta maps onto any other area besides the Superstitions - perhaps they are not intended to be used there? After all, by either version of how the stones were discovered (also found a third version, that the stones were sold to Tumlinson by two men who are un-named, no support for this version at all) they were NOT found IN the Superstitions but outside of them!

Thank you for your time, and I hope you all have a great day!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

"The one thing I remember about Christmas was that my father used to take me out in a boat about ten miles offshore on Christmas Day, and I used to have to swim back. Extraordinary. It was a ritual. Mind you, that wasn't the hard part. The difficult bit was getting out of the sack." –John Cleese

 

[Oroblanco]

Almost forgot, this could be important:

Please show me ONE example of an Amerindian Heart Shaped Stone?

You can find heart symbols in Amerindian designs other than stone too.

Does this PROVE the heart stone must therefore be Amerindian? No. More questions, more possibilities....

Interesting that there would be Jesuit priests named Pedro and Miguel, could be a clue, or simply coincidence? Pedro and Miguel are fairly common names among Mexicans.

Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Maybe I should have phrased that better. "Please show me any PERIOD Amerindian heart carvings." I don't care about modern Indian Jewelry. We're talking something before they were integrated into modern society.

And you must not have read the ENTIRE William Edwards Story, because you ONLY grasp on the part concerning what the other Trooper and the Lieutenent thought. You either didn't read, or completely ignored the latter part of the story, which I will repost here:

"Edwards returned on his own time and began trying to backtrack the men whose skeletons he had found. Edwards, like many soldiers, was a part-time prospector and he wondered if the men might not have been miners, after all the area they had been found in was not close to any set¬tlement and far from established trails. Near the massacre site Edwards found what he was looking for, an iron wedge used by miners to break rock in a hard rock mine. Then he found a well used iron pry bar. Edwards now knew they were miners and he thought he knew what they were doing, for he recognized Superstition Mountain for what it was, a resur¬gence volcano. He knew that along the caldera ring of such a resurgence volcano was a good place to look for minerals. He expected to find a Mexican camp and an old mine along the caldera ring. But, the trail Edwards uncovered did not lead along the caldera ring, it led back into the Superstition Mountains.

Edwards slowly searched in widening circles and about a half-mile from the 25 skeletons he found another skeleton under a jojoba bush. These remains were - or at least had been - fully clothed. Underneath the skeleton he found a knife and an untanned cowhide pouch filled with hand-cobbed gold ore. Edwards began to see that a running battle had occurred, and he thought that the man with the gold ore had crawled off wounded to hide in the brush and died unseen by friends or Apache. In all, Edwards found five more skeletons stretching along a trail leading back into the mountains, all had been stripped. It was easy to confirm that a running battle had occurred and backtracked the Mexicans to their camp — in the end, all he had to do was follow the skeletons. The trail led him eastward for over five miles into the interior of the mountains. But, some¬where, probably around La Barge Canyon, Edwards ran out of skeletons. By now he knew that wherever the Mexicans had been working, it was deep in the mountains. He then searched along the canyons, and on the northwestern slopes of what is today Bluff Springs Mountain, he found the remains of a small work camp. There were several prospect holes where the miners had been excavating along an exposed manganese deposit, but no gold. However, there was a trail from the camp which led Edwards to what is today White Rock Spring and Marsh Valley where he found what he was looking for, the remains of a large base camp, includ¬ing a rock lined well. Here everything was either burned, broken or cut up. There were several trails from the camp, and it was obviously the main Mexican camp. Edwards knew from the size of the camp and the well worn trails that the Mexicans had been there for some time, that they had not been just passing through. He also saw something else. As he was working the country he saw a lone Apache sitting a horse on high ground. Edwards hid, and when evening came he began to work his way back to his camp, when he noticed his horse was gone. Fearing a trap, he moved off in the night and for several days would hide during the day and trav¬el only at night until he made it to a mining camp. William Edwards had started hunting lost Mexican or Spanish mines in the Superstition Mountains before Waltz had even arrived in Phoenix."

Here is the last part of the Edwards Story. It concerns William Edwards grandson, Ben. You are so sure about the skeletons belonging to Pima Indians, that you have absolutely ignored the part of the Edwards Story that gave details as to why we know that it was a Mexican Expedition that was attacked, and not Pima Indians (as you continually assert as being most probable):


"As the years wore on and Ben Edwards took up his grandfather William's search, he took a job freighting to the San Carlos Reservation. This was circa the late 1910s/early 1920s, and there were still Apache braves alive who knew of the old days and the old fights. That his moth¬er was half-Apache and had chosen to remain on the reservation with 'her people' and that Ben had assumed responsibility for not only his mother, but also her family, did not hurt his standing. Ben learned the Apache language and became known as an honorable man. His interest in the Superstition Mountains was known to his Apache family and clan, but they would not tell even Ben about where mining had been done. They would tell him that it had been done, that it was done by Mexicans and that it was done in the years before the white man came to their country (central Arizona). One day an elderly uncle of Ben's went hunting with him in the Superstition Mountains. They worked their way around the northwestern foothills of Superstition Mountain when his uncle said he wanted to tell him some things, important things.

Ben and his uncle sat. His uncle told him that a great fight had hap¬pened and started to point out places on the mountain. He said to Ben that Mexicans who had mined the gold that Ben searched for had died there. The fight had lasted many days, starting with a few braves raiding the Mexican camps. Unfortunately for the Mexicans, they had been slow to realize the seriousness of their situation. The chief who started the fight was Nanni'Chaddi, a brave chief for a Biniedene (Yavapai) Apache —Ben's uncle was Bedonkohe Apache. As the fight grew Nanni'Chaddi called for more and more of his braves, then he sent up smoke signals to call for help from any Apache. Two chiefs came, Dji'LiKine and Tcha'nol'haye, both Bedonkohe Apache. The big fight with all three chiefs lasted three more days. It was a good fight, but Dji'Li'Kine was killed. The ground they were now on, Ben understood, was sacred ground, a place of power from the many deeds done and the brave men who died there. As he listened to his elderly uncle, Ben realized something else. His uncle had been there when it all happened, it had been his uncle's first battle as a young brave. Ben also turned over in his mind the image of his grandfa¬ther, William, and the story he had told Ben of the bones, the skull with the gold tooth and the skeletons William had found. Ben had not told his Apache family of William's story for he knew that on the San Carlos Reservation it was best to keep stories about a United States soldier to himself, especially one who had been his grandfather."

So, now can you admit that you are wrong in your Pima folly? These quotes are from the original story that I posted in reply #17 in this very thread. You say that you have read it, but you obviously have not. This account gives the names of the Apache Chiefs involved, and it was told by one of the actual Apache who took part in the massacre, and all this happened before Jacob Waltz ever set foot in the Superstitions!

As far a MORE PROBABLE (which you have yet to reply to), you can only find ONE incident of an Indian with a gold tooth, and that is not for certain, anywhere that I can find.

even if we accept that the one set of remains IS Mexican, then what are the rest? Are we supposed to assume they are all Mexicans, based on ONE set of remains?

I would say that it would be a MUCH safer assumption than assuming (as you do) that they are Pima Indians! There is nothing arbitrary about my assumptions, but yours are very arbitrary!

Let's look at your assumptions:

1. A skull with a gold tooth. You ASSUME it to be an Indian because there is (in the entire US History) ONE Indian with a gold tooth! How arbitrary is that?

2. Mining tools are found with the skeletons. You assume that they were Pima Miners. I think that if you check the claim records you will find the greatest majority of the miners are anglos. ME ARBITRARY?

3. One of the skeletons is dressed in western clothes. You still assume that it was an anglo or mexican travelling with Pima Miners. ANY unbiased person would assume (if they were making assumptions) that the party was composed of Mexicans or Anglos.

So, lets see what we have here:

A skull with a gold tooth, a skeleton dressed in western clothes, and mining tools found with the skeletons. What would ANY normal person conclude from those facts? Pima Indians? I DON'T THINK SO! An open mind would easily conclude they were Anglos or Mexican. There is NO evidence of Indian artifacts or clothing, or tools, or ANYTHING that would lead ANYBODY to believe that they were Pima Indians! The only reason that the Army Lieutenant came to the conclusion that they were Indians was because there were no reports of missing AMERICAN Mining Parties. His "Indian" conclusion was not based on an examination of the skeletons (like Edwards was). Remember, the Lieutenant never got off his horse!

Best,

Mike

 

[gollum]

Here is where I gave you the information about the California Peraltas (Sept 11th). Reply#11:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,47594.msg345416.html#msg345416

Mike