Odyssey Marine Article...

mariner said:
There's a big difference between Yale's possession of the Machu Pichu artefacts and Spain's removal of the various treasures that they took in the Conquest of the New World. Yale borrowed their artefacts in relatively modern times by agreement with the Peruvian Government and have just failed to return the stuff they borrowed. The treasure that Spain took from Mexico, Peru etc. was all taken from the then-native rulers of the areas after they had been conquered in a war/invasion. Like it or not, this was all legitimate "spoils of war" belonging to Spain, in a time-honored tradition.

I do not think that Peru has a legitimate claim on the cargo of the Mercedes. Now the legal heirs to the owners of the cargo when the ship sank, or was sinking, that's another matter, if they can establsih their legitimate claim to specific objects.

Mariner
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So the way I understand it....one must declare war on Spain....
 

4theMoney

I thought that Odyssey already had declared war on Spain!! (Sorry, Jeff; could not resist it)

Mariner
 

4themoney ( quote: so the way I understand it.. one must declare WAR on Spain )???
show me the MONEY !!! try getting a real job
Ossy
 

Geeze Mariner, you beat me to it sniffffff

However, since everyone has a claim against every recovery, no matter which period, where , or how aquired, let's start anew. Let's place everything under a statue of limitations. Nothing over 50 years has a valid claiment anymore, unless a claim has been filed and some form of attempt to salvage is being done.

Frankly I believe that no more governmental salvages etc will be done for a looong, loong time due to the world's problems, so if it is to be done, it must be done soon and by private salvage firms.

I rather suspect that many Marine Archeologists will soon be at the unemployment offices and attempting to relax the salvage laws in order to obtain employment.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to LIVE, not live to exist"

p.s Right of ownership by theft, or conquest has been thrown out as a legitiment claim after WW-2.
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY said:
4themoney ( quote: so the way I understand it.. one must declare WAR on Spain )???
show me the MONEY !!! try getting a real job
Ossy
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Lets see... I am a commercial fisherman, professional diver and have been running charterboats for almost 17years..... No trust fund here,,,, I do however dislike the greedy and self-rightious and do not resent those who find success.....I do not delude myself, as my part time efforts may never pay off....I work very hard for my family.....What do you do?
 

AhAH gentlemen: Whenever the consul etc get personal, they have lost the case. Old axiom, but still true.

Incidentally, I presume that Spain has returned "all of the Artifacts" in her museums that originated in other countries or cultures to show good faith?????

Don Jose de La Mancha

" I exist to LIVE, not live to exist"
 

Vox veritas said:
Also, in September or maybe October of 1804 the Spanish frigate Felix disappeared without anything was known. It could be of this ship that the treasure was recovered (this it is only a possibility). And it can have other possibilities ........
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Claudio... If the Felix disappeared how do you know where it went down? It could have been in the middle of the Atlantic.
 

Jeff K said:
Vox veritas said:
Also, in September or maybe October of 1804 the Spanish frigate Felix disappeared without anything was known. It could be of this ship that the treasure was recovered (this it is only a possibility). And it can have other possibilities ........
Click to expand...

Claudio... If the Felix disappeared how do you know where it went down? It could have been in the middle of the Atlantic.
Click to expand...

It is a possibility not a fact. Fact can become when the truth is uncovered.
 

Gentlemen, have you seen the photos from Odyssey on the Mercedes case ? check out HHI Odyssey
and the Mercedes ! I would post here but I don't have the link.
Interesting, Check out the ocean floor! they look very close to shore from my experience !
Question for any body , Why didn't Odyssey bring up one of the Bronze cannons??? you would
Identify the vessel with out playing games ?
Claudio the Photos would show your information as 100 %
Ossy
 

Ossy,
You seem to look for an argument with every post about Odyssey. Why? Are you Spanish? Did they do something to you? It has only been with Odyssey. Why not whine about the other Spanish wrecks found all over the world? Sure your not Diving Doc? Sounds like the same guy to me. I would watch out, you'll end up in court too.

Diverlynn
 

Ossy,
You seem to look for an argument with every post about Odyssey. Why? Are you Spanish? Did they do something to you? It has only been with Odyssey. Why not whine about the other Spanish wrecks found all over the world? Sure your not Diving Doc? Sounds like the same guy to me. I would watch out, you'll end up in court too.

Diverlynn
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What's wrong to be Spanish? or are you looking for English shipwrecks only in Florida's water? be honest with yourself,.... Did Odyssey do something for all advocate here ?

Just asking!!!

Architecad
(1A-31 supporter)
 

Architecad,
I meant no disrespect to the Spanish or anyone else. How did you get that from what I wrote? Architecad, We all know where you stand so no need to repeat it.
My meaning was that "if" Ossy was Spanish, I might see where he comes from in his attitude. I just don't see where any state or country should not be willing to work with any reputable salvage company. Most of these artifacts will never be recovered if it were not for the salvors. Most do not have the equipment, man (woman) power or financial ability. I think Odyssey has done a magnificent job doing what they do in deep water. If not for them none of the deep water wreck treasures would be available to see, if only in photos, that's better than never seeing them at all.
Oh yea sure, lets just leave everything there 'cause if our/their state/country can't afford or is unwilling to search and rescue them in a timely manner they won't let anyone else try. Then NO history will be preserved.

Diverlynn
 

We all know where you stand so no need to repeat it.
My meaning was that "if" Ossy was Spanish
Click to expand...

Diverlynn
Most time I don't waste my time reading prior post from others members because I have to go back pretty far and I prefer to aim in the last post, not in the thought of somebody wrote a post 2 or 3 weeks ago and being responded yesterday for some member here.

Odyssey made a good Job. The only problem is the way they proceeded to remove the coins, it is not the proper way to do it. In my opinion "Commercial salvor" will disappear in the future because the countries, people around the world understand the history of any country come from three sources:

1. Books
2. Archaeological works
3. Archives

if Our children will be privated to learn of our heritage and culture's past just for the personal's profit of a few commercial salvor, then it's better to return to stone edge. :-\

I don't like you feel bad because I repeat something.

Architecad
 

If it was "just for the personal's profit of a few commercial salvor", I would agree. But there's not a reputable company out there today who doesn't donate unique artifacts to be viewed by the public and for our children to learn from it. That beats it sitting in a warehouse while being kept from the public. My guess is that most archies aren't as upset about kid's learning as they are jealous of hard earned profit. Respectable companies typically sell duplicate items. Why don't we see how far any industry (much less shipwreck recovery) will benefit the public with no hope of a profit.

Coca Cola expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
IBM expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
Johnson and Johnson expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
Odyssey expects a profit to continue to run their business - EVIL!!!

It's not really as bad as it's being made out to be since they desire to share their finds with our children (who would do well to learn business practices while learning about history, too).

Respectfully,
Darren
 

Lynn... Ossy is Hispanic, so he does have an agenda. I suspect our new archy friend is Hispanic also.
 

I would bet to say that anyone, salvor, collector or purchaser, that any coin or artifact owned by a private individual has showned it to many many people. Who says unless it's in a museum that the public will never see it. I can't count the times I have seen Doug show his coin necklace to strangers and explain some history of when and where it came from. What are the chances of me going to Tallahassee and asking to see some of the treasures being stored, due to lack of space? Yea, right.

Diverlynn
 

Lynn... Ossy is Hispanic, so he does have an agenda. I suspect our new archy friend is Hispanic also.
Click to expand...

jeff

Please, don't post that sort of comments, sounds like "discriminating with some prejudice".

Coca Cola expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
IBM expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
Johnson and Johnson expects a profit to continue to run their business - no complaints.
Odyssey expects a profit to continue to run their business - EVIL!!!
Click to expand...

Coca Cola, IBM, Johnson & Johnson generate millions of employment around the world. They contribute to the local economy.They generate new no-direct employment (TV commercials,broadcasting,etc.) They contribute with new scientific development of foods,medicine and high technology. Odyssey,.... the only I know is they'd produced to Spain a big headache.

Many Commercial salvor are willing to contribute with museum or creating theirs own shipwreck museum(like Mel Fisher) but that is not the issue. The issue is the lack of knowledge about remove any artifact using the conventional archaeological method learned in a University. When you blow out water over some shipwreck site, you're putting in danger historical evidence, no matter if you find a coin, ballast or a bronze cannon.


Architecad
 

Buenas dias architecad: I sympathize with you, but you listed three scources -->

1. Books
2. Archaeological works
3. Archive

Basically I agree, but how do these three units receive their data and artifacts? Through field recoveries of course. and who instigates those recoveries? Initially, private enterprise naturally, since all govt's are very frugal in advancing any serious amounts of money for what is considered treasure hunting. If you personally invest any money into any research program, you rightly expect a profit, or you do not invest, so it is with salvage and research companies, .it is that simple.

No ability to recover at a profit, after a long and very expensive search, means no searching. The various govt's have shown no inclination to invest in their history either, particularly Spain, except for lawyers... So where is the incentive to continue to look for other wrecks? Admittedly as time goes by, newer methods and equipment will make it easier in the distant future, but time is constantly destroying whatever archaeological value most wrecks may have. Those of recent sinkings are well known in all details so are not important to culture study as such..

So, an older, important wreck is located. The Archaeologists then record all pertinent data, etc., fine. There now remains the question of the contents. Why can't the salvage group that expended huge quantities of money and time searching for it now profit? Just how many duplicates of coins, etc., are needed for Archaeological purposes? Let the remainder go to help the company continue to look for more wrecks, and signal a go ahead for others. Remember, the profits from this will then be heavily taxed, again a plus effect..

So in total it is far more logical and archaeologically effective to encourage controlled marine salvage. no?

Even the Marine Archaeologists, who presently are trying to kill the goose that lays "their" golden eggs, will benefit through having more opportunities for employment.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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