Wrecks from Aztec & Inca looting periods

[ISmellGold]

Has there been much written about wrecks of the period of the looting of the treasures of the Aztecs in 1521 (fall of Tenochtitlan) and subsequently Inca in 1533 (execution of Atahualpa) and the immediate years following?

My main interest is gold ornaments and jewelry hence my past posts re: Manila galleons returning from Manila pre-1630. With regards to Aztecs and Inca treasure, I reckon in the early years after the conquest and looting much of the transport would have been in the form of ornaments, jewelry, and ceremonial artifacts before wide spread melting of metal began.

In Book IX, Chapter 91, The True History of the Conquest of New Spain (Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva Espana), Bernal Diaz del Castillo recounts the initial gifts (from Moctezuma to Cortes): “collars, bracelets, and many other jewels, all of fine gold and very rich workmanship.”

After Pizarro's conquest of the Inca Empire and Atahualpa’s capture and execution in 1533, the Spanish extracted an enormous ransom of gold and silver (estimated at 13,000 pounds of gold and 26,000 pounds of silver), which included many ornaments, jewelry and artifacts. This treasure was shipped from Peru to Panama starting in 1533–1534.

So we have 1520-1522 and 1533-1534 as the start of the period where the Spanish acquired Aztec and Inca treasures. Most of the treasure would have been shipped in its original form before widespread melting began in the years following.

Any literature from these periods about possible wrecks re: Callao to Panama (or Caribbean side of Panama) or Veracruz to Havana? Anyone know of anyone's past pursuits of such wrecks if any?

Probably the only record of that stuff if any are the Spanish Galleon manifests that returned to spain. That and Legends.

 

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[Tanneyhill]

Let's say you locate one of the wrecked ships of the 1527 fleet. You recover a gold bar with the tax stamp and all the other usual markings, carat purity, assayers mark (Ovieda) etc.
If you have all the context. that gold bar would be worth about 20 to 50 times it's weight in gold.
A gold artifact, adornment or such on the same shipwreck would be worth 100 to 1000 times it's weight in gold.
Now, some people say: just melt it down and sell it in the pawnshop. The value , less cost of melt down and cost of sales, would be about 10% to 30% of its weight of gold.

Yes sir, hence my obsession with these types of treasures as they are priceless artifacts of history. Sure I wouldn't pass up a modern era Venezuelan "smuggler's" gold bar if I found it but it is literally a night and day difference between a modern day smuggler's gold bar and one from the colonial period with all of the markings. And of course the jewelry, adornments and ornaments are on another level.

Rarity and beauty is the focus ...

 

[Tanneyhill]

Probably the only record of that stuff if any are the Spanish Galleon manifests that returned to spain. That and Legends.

Problem is documentation was rather murky during the early years of conquest. I would need to hire a PhD student or his or her professor to comb through the following archives:

Archivo General de Indias in Seville
National Archive of Cuba in Havana
General Archive of Puerto Rico in San Juan
National Archive of the Dominican Republic in Santo Domingo
Archivo General de la Nación in Mexico City
Archivo Histórico de Veracruz
Archivo Nacional de Panamá in Panama City
Archivo General de la Nación in Bogota
Archivo General de la Nación in Lima
Archivo General de la Nación in Caracas
Archivo Nacional del Ecuador in Quito

Btw, if you guys know of any good trustworthy PhD students or professors please DM me.

Although I question the value in this exercise with so many having done this before. I don't have any experience with this like how much of the archives remains to be explored?

 

[Colombiapictures]

No one person in the world can read the thousands and thousands of documents within his life time. You need to narrow the search for a specific goal to start with.
Once you have achieved this goal, then you can apply what you have learned about the pitfalls of contracting research work and multiply the effort.

Attached is the bibliography of a book about the Welser colony in Venezuela. You can see a variety of sources and there are hundreds of sources more just for the short time period of that colony.

The 16th century in South America is interesting because it includes the conquest of the Muiscas who were the best artisans working with gold.
The search of the ELDORADO that has not ended until today.
The conquest of the Inca empire.

 

[ISmellGold]

That stuff is GONE, GONE GONE. You want to see that stuff visit a museum.
My guess is that anything made of Gold brought back to Spain of Inca, Aztec design was most likely melted down and turned into European designed Jewelery and goods. It most likely just wasn't up to European Standards of Gold Smithing.
Heck even the gemstones were probably cut or ground down from their somewhat Raw state that they arrived.

 

[Physics guy]

That stuff is GONE, GONE GONE. You want to see that stuff visit a museum.
My guess is that anything made of Gold brought back to Spain of Inca, Aztec design was most likely melted down and turned into European designed Jewelery and goods. It most likely just wasn't up to European Standards of Gold Smithing.
Heck even the gemstones were probably cut or ground down from their somewhat Raw state that they arrived.

I agree this was likely the fate of most of what made it to Europe. Today’s astronomical collector’s values wouldn’t have existed then. So shipwrecks are where any yet-undiscovered Aztec and Inca ornamental gold and gemstone articles can be found, provided they weren’t melted down before being shipped. The only problem is financing the search and recovery, and then financing the defense against piratical lawyers. Aarrh!

 

[enrada]

There are a number of people who get caught up in treasure hunting who think that Atahualpa's room full of ransom gold is still waiting for someone to open the door. I am working on some Inca stuff but am not delusional about finding some laying alongside the road. Any finds inland will require a lot of time and high end electronics for detection. My finding a manuscript will allow me to find 5 tons of gold in South America and not behind a closed door!!!

 

[cuzimloony]

At the time of pizzarros invasion the Inca empire was in the middle of a civil war. Cusco was the losing side. Plus small Pox devestated the local popularion. More looting came later as more Spanish arrived and stated looting burial sites of various tribes not just Inca.

Crow.

Correct me if Im wrong, but Pizarro arrived AFTER their civil war had just ended and actually met Atahualpa on his way back from the victory.

 

[cuzimloony]

My personal thought is that almost all Inca gold artifacts were melted down in Peru before being shipped to Panama. Unless we could find some in the basement of the Vatican!

I think this is correct. Certain pieces would be sent back whole as gifts to kings or for favors. The vast majority, was melted down before leaving the Americas.

 

[enrada]

I think that looting(recycling) of gold from graves was not done by the Spanish conquistadores. There was too much ceremonial and jewelry gold being worn to even bother with graves.

 

[Colombiapictures]

I think this is correct. Certain pieces would be sent back whole as gifts to kings or for favors. The vast majority, was melted down before leaving the Americas.

The reason of the melting down, was to pay the Royal fifth. The loading of a galleon was a meticulous job. If it was badly done it would greatly endanger the safety of the ship. Every cargo item was carefully registred, numbered and the owner identified. The cost of shipping had to be paid too. Obviously that was a good time to verify that the kings tax stamp was on every piece of gold or silver. With the exception of some jewelry or special gifts. And of course, the smuggled goods that were hidden so as not to pay the dues.

 

[Crow]

I think that looting(recycling) of gold from graves was not done by the Spanish conquistadores. There was too much ceremonial and jewelry gold being worn to even bother with graves.

Later Spanish arrived after conquest. about 300 years. Inca is open term. there was many culture with in the Inca empire.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Correct me if Im wrong, but Pizarro arrived AFTER their civil war had just ended and actually met Atahualpa on his way back from the victory.

Yes and no.

In 1524 to 1526 Francisco Pizzaro started exploring south America along the coast. It was claimed the Conquestidors brought small pox to South America. Huayna Capac died of small pox in 1527 by 1533 the civil war between Huscar and Atahalpha was over. Technically Pizzaro first arrived in northern Peru before the Inca civil War 1529-1532

Pizzaro had three expeditions in all 1524, 1528 and 1531. He only came in contact with Athahalpha at Cajamarca in `1532. these events did not happen all at once like in movies but over time. By the time he entered Cusco it was 1533.

Crow

 

[Crow]

Problem is documentation was rather murky during the early years of conquest. I would need to hire a PhD student or his or her professor to comb through the following archives:

Archivo General de Indias in Seville
National Archive of Cuba in Havana
General Archive of Puerto Rico in San Juan
National Archive of the Dominican Republic in Santo Domingo
Archivo General de la Nación in Mexico City
Archivo Histórico de Veracruz
Archivo Nacional de Panamá in Panama City
Archivo General de la Nación in Bogota
Archivo General de la Nación in Lima
Archivo General de la Nación in Caracas
Archivo Nacional del Ecuador in Quito

Btw, if you guys know of any good trustworthy PhD students or professors please DM me.

Although I question the value in this exercise with so many having done this before. I don't have any experience with this like how much of the archives remains to be explored?

I hope you have deep pockets. And it takes years to trawl through documents.

The problem I see you need clear a research goal. As there are thousand of documents all over the world that may pertain to shipments of treasure. But you have to be clear of what goals you want to achieve. A financial reward or reward personal enrichment of history. Bound with in laws of countries in question and having the financial capacity to achieve the goals you set out to achieve.

Crow

 

[cuzimloony]

Yes and no.

In 1524 to 1526 Francisco Pizzaro started exploring south America along the coast. It was claimed the Conquestidors brought small pox to South America. Huayna Capac died of small pox in 1527 by 1533 the civil war between Huscar and Atahalpha was over. Technically Pizzaro first arrived in northern Peru before the Inca civil War 1529-1532

Pizzaro had three expeditions in all 1524, 1528 and 1531. He only came in contact with Athahalpha at Cajamarca in `1532. these events did not happen all at once like in movies but over time. By the time he entered Cusco it was 1533.

Crow

From my records..... again, please correct me where I'm wrong. The first two expeditions by Pizzaro weren't to Peru.
In 1524 he never made it past the Rio San Juan, in Colombia, even though technically he was trying to get to Biru.
In 1528, Pizarro was in Spain (still not having made it to Peru) with Pedro de Candia (the giant) making preparations for his trip to Peru. And it seems he still hadn't made it to Peru until possibly the very tail end of 1531, as he's recorded in Puna, Equador on Dec 1, 1531 with Hernando de Soto travelling toward Peru....still not having been there yet.
The next record I have of him IS in Peru, in a town called Tumbes, but this had to be either end of 1531 (after Dec. 1) or in 1532.

It appears, to me at least, that Pizarro probably didn't step foot into Peru until the very last weeks of 1531, or beginning of 1532, after their "civil" war.

 

[ISmellGold]

Yes and no.

In 1524 to 1526 Francisco Pizzaro started exploring south America along the coast. It was claimed the Conquestidors brought small pox to South America. Huayna Capac died of small pox in 1527 by 1533 the civil war between Huscar and Atahalpha was over. Technically Pizzaro first arrived in northern Peru before the Inca civil War 1529-1532

Pizzaro had three expeditions in all 1524, 1528 and 1531. He only came in contact with Athahalpha at Cajamarca in `1532. these events did not happen all at once like in movies but over time. By the time he entered Cusco it was 1533.

Crow

Can You imagine what that looked like? Returning to a city after somebody had released Smallpox? It must of been chilling.
Now there is a film to be made.

 

[Crow]

Can You imagine what that looked like? Returning to a city after somebody had released Smallpox? It must of been chilling.
Now there is a film to be made.

It was not intentional just quirk of nature. Most Europeans that survived Small pox was the ones that had heard immunity to it in Europe however they obliviously carried it to the Americas that ripped through native population.

Crow

 

[Crow]

From my records..... again, please correct me where I'm wrong. The first two expeditions by Pizzaro weren't to Peru.
In 1524 he never made it past the Rio San Juan, in Colombia, even though technically he was trying to get to Biru.
In 1528, Pizarro was in Spain (still not having made it to Peru) with Pedro de Candia (the giant) making preparations for his trip to Peru. And it seems he still hadn't made it to Peru until possibly the very tail end of 1531, as he's recorded in Puna, Equador on Dec 1, 1531 with Hernando de Soto travelling toward Peru....still not having been there yet.
The next record I have of him IS in Peru, in a town called Tumbes, but this had to be either end of 1531 (after Dec. 1) or in 1532.

It appears, to me at least, that Pizarro probably didn't step foot into Peru until the very last weeks of 1531, or beginning of 1532, after their "civil" war.

Your 100 percent correct in context of present day borders I was poorly referring to the past borders of the Inca empire collectively referred to by the Spanish at the time as Peru in various spelling variations. The Inca was not a nation in a modern context but ruling class of clans that control a large empire that controls various cultures in various regions though tribute to the Inca. now parts of Columbia, Bolivia, Chilie and Ecuador. Pizzaro did not set foot in Inca heartland around Cusco known as the naval of the world to 1533.

Crow

 

[Colombiapictures]

Can You imagine what that looked like? Returning to a city after somebody had released Smallpox? It must of been chilling.
Now there is a film to be made.

Horror movies seem to be quite popular.

 

[Colombiapictures]

I hope you have deep pockets. And it takes years to trawl through documents.

The problem I see you need clear a research goal. As there are thousand of documents all over the world that may pertain to shipments of treasure. But you have to be clear of what goals you want to achieve. A financial reward or reward personal enrichment of history. Bound with in laws of countries in question and having the financial capacity to achieve the goals you set out to achieve.

Crow

This is one job where an AI tool could help. But, who will train the AI tool?