Odyssey Marine Article...

Jeff K said:
Vox veritas said:
Yes, my allegations have very hard historical foundation, but continues without clarifying the matter of the 100-180 nm, because they continue lacking 100 or 20 nm to arrive to High Sea or to abandon the EEZ of Spain, Morocco or Portugal.
Click to expand...

Nowhere in the arrest document does Odyssey mention international waters.

"The Defendant Shipwrecked Vessel is lying at a depth of approximately 1100
meters, beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation
approximately 100 miles west of the Straits of Gibraltar. Upon information and belief, no
extant entity or person presently claims any ownership interest in the Defendant Shipwrecked
Vessel. Evidence at the site indicates that efforts, if any, by any previous owner to salvage
the shipwreck and/or its cargo have been long since abandoned. The value of the Defendant
Shipwrecked Vessel cannot be estimated at this time."

And you had better come up with a better theory than the one you're claiming in those articles. If Odyssey recovered coins from a fleet of Spanish ships that sunk in 1801, then how come some of the coins are dated 1802 & 1803. ???
Click to expand...

Not in arrest document, but yes in the media:


http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_15454.shtml

http://www.gibraltarnewsonline.com/...-with-odyssey-marine-over-shipwreck-treasure/

http://seekingalpha.com/article/90675-august-is-the-time-to-buy-odyssey-marine-exploration

http://www.wwnorton.com/cgi-bin/ceilidh.exe/pob/forum/?C350e5a913KHc-6850-258-90.htm

http://www.coinnews.net/2008/04/03/...-one-shipwreck-case-with-odyssey-marine-4029/

http://lawreview.wustl.edu/in-print...-in-international-waters—a-new-policy-regime/

http://www.divenews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=5817

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15584445

http://dragonflames.com/tag/odyssey-marine-exploration/
 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!
Jeff K said:
Here's an interesting affidavit by Carol Tedesco that was filed with Odyssey's response to Spain on Monday.

www.treasurelore.com/charts/Tedesco_Affidavit.pdf
Click to expand...
Jeff nice story ! Carol Tedesco had me half convinced, that's till I got to ( quote ! When you come up on piles of coins, with a lack of ballast and other shipwreck material, it is reasonable to consider that the coins were jettisoned by the crew and passengers of a ship in distress to lighten the load and save the vessel from sinking :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
For an expert ? she doesn't know much about sea currents and moving boats !
should get Odyssey to try an experiment, moving boat say 8 knots, and see have fast the can jettison box's of coins. then go back and see
if the end up in piles like the photos ! give mythbusters a call they should be able to help.
Odyssey is getting desperate.
Ossy
 

Vox veritas said:
Jeff K said:
Claudio... The EEZ is a red herring. It has nothing to do with shipwrecks. I'm surprised that a self-proclaimed expert like yourself would not know the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).
Click to expand...

What about the UNCLOS article 149? And, why Odyssey defines 100 or 180 nm as international waters when it is EEZ? Please, explain this detail. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Jeff, seemingly the UNCLOS article 149 has importance and other don't forget that it exists:

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/dis...
 

Jeff, seemingly the UNCLOS article 149 has importance and other don't forget that it exists:

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/dis...


[/quote]

Vox,

How is article 149 important in this particular case? The link is incomplete, and the justia site is so extensive that I could not find if it shows how artricle 149 applies to this case.

Thanks,

Mariner
 

"Article 149 of UNCLOS states that ‘all objects of an archaeological and historical nature found in the Area [that is, on the seabed underneath the high seas] shall be preserved or disposed of for the benefit of mankind as a whole, particular regard being paid to the preferential rights of the State or country of origin, or the State of cultural origin, or the State of historical and archaeological origin’. So, not only is Article 149 limited to the Area, but the provisions for exactly what to do with UCH as well the definitions of what constitute country of origin are both extremely vague and confusing."

http://www.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/projects/iarc/culturewithoutcontext/issue16/papa-sokal.htm

I think Odyssey is preserving and disposing of artifacts for the benefit of mankind as a whole. They have brought to light three shipwrecks, the Republic, Sussex & Mercedes, that nobody ever heard of before. Artifacts are on display in several museums, and the Discovery series will show "mankind" even more of what's under the sea.
 

Jeff, Odyssey has excavated more than 3 wrecks. Don't forget the "china wreck." It is a 19th century ship loaded with blue china that Odyssey saved from trawl nets. The trawlers were destroying shipwrecks and Odyssey salvaged the china and other artifacts and put EVERYTHING in a museum. Not one item was sold.
 

Good evening : This was in the Spanish interview-->

"España ha dicho que el acuerdo está en que se devuelva todo", aseguró el responsable de Cultura, quien precisó que "con los piratas, como con los terroristas, no hay nada de qué hablar".
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Spain has said the agreement is that they return everything, the Minister of culture.has said "with the pirates, as with the terrorists, there is nothing to discuss.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

MERCEDES is just the tip of the iceberg!


Ancient Tug Of War
Ancient Incan artifacts from the ruins of Machu Pichu in Peru are sparking an
international dispute.

(CBS) More than half-a-millennium old, some ancient Incan artifacts from the
Machu Picchu ruins in Peru have sparked quite the present day international
dispute, reports CBS News correspondent Jim Axelrod.

Yale University has them. Peru wants them back.

"Right now Yale believes that it has clear title to them," says Barbara
Shailor, deputy provost for the arts at Yale.

"Why do the artifacts belong back here in Peru?" asks historian Mariana Mould
de Pease. "Because they were made here."

When Yale professor Hiram Bingham rediscovered Machu Picchu early last
century, he carted thousands of pieces of pottery, jewelry, even bone
fragments, back to Yale's campus in New Haven, Conn. Peru says it was a
temporary arrangement for 18 months.

"The Peruvian government said, you take these artifacts because you want to do
research," de Pease said. "The understanding was you give them back. That was
in 1916."

As with any dispute, both sides are looking at the same set of events and
drawing two very different pictures. But here's what's not in dispute, not
here in Peru nor on the Yale campus. When it comes to the bulk of the
artifacts, Yale doesn't want to give them back. When the Peruvian government
asked for the artifacts back, de Pease said Yale's response was "arrogant."

"They tried to convince Peru that we were not able to conduct serious
research, that we were not able to take care of those artifacts," she said.

"We believe we've been good stewards for the last almost 100 years and that we
want to see that stewardship continue for the next 100 years and beyond,"
Shailor said.

As often happens, Axelrod reports, the strong feelings are leading to strong
words, like looting.

"Because looting is not only taking away and hiding the objects you are taking
with you, looting is saying you can't take care of the things, that's why I
keep them," de Pease says.

"This is not loot," Shailor says. "It was not the spoils of war. And the
conditions under which they were brought to New Haven, I believe, were
legitimate ones."

Yale has offered to return some of the artifacts. But not nearly enough for
the Peruvian government, which wants them all back in time for Machu Picchu's
centenary in 2011. If not, it has threatened a modern day remedy - a lawsuit.
© MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.


Pirate Diver
 

Sheesh, what a can of worms Spain is opening up. Next Peru and the other American Latin countries will want ALL artifacts, jewelry, monies, precious metals etc. etc., back from Spain. The worlds museums will soon be out of business.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"I exist to Live, not live to exist"
 

Hola Don Jose. Spain is only fighting for its Heritage, With technology now, what is safe, Odyssey can plunder the world oceans
and that's the business there in ! Maybe they should go into making documentaries on ship wrecks, I would be happy to pay for that.
PS you can start with the London museum they have the largest hoard .
Ossy
 

I agree with #1 post "Will Finders Be Keepers of Salvaged Treasure?"
If you loose it and abandon it then it's fair game for the next person coming along.
If my car breaks down and I leave it on the side of the road with no intention of recovering it; then the tow company gets to keep it for there service.
Just my 2 cents worth :thumbsup: :coffee2:
 

Bumpstick your are a funny guy :laughing9: :laughing9: So if your 5 series BMW breaks down
your going to leave it and good luck to who finds it !!
Or did you mean your car is worth 2 cents and you don't want it back ?
There are laws to protect people's property or would you like to go back to living like a cave man !!
Ossy
 

Good morning OOSY mi amigo: you posted -->

. Spain is only fighting for its Heritage
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So will every country or person in the world, especially those that Spain plundered. But where will the line be drawn? I rather imagine that it will eventually trickle down to individual tribes or even persons claiming their part, which, under Spain's example, will be ALL.

So if everyone wants it all, then how far back in time do we go to start to declare legal ownership?

Of course this will mean no museums effectively.

Don Jose de La Mancha

" I exist to LIVE, not live to exist"
 

There's a big difference between Yale's possession of the Machu Pichu artefacts and Spain's removal of the various treasures that they took in the Conquest of the New World. Yale borrowed their artefacts in relatively modern times by agreement with the Peruvian Government and have just failed to return the stuff they borrowed. The treasure that Spain took from Mexico, Peru etc. was all taken from the then-native rulers of the areas after they had been conquered in a war/invasion. Like it or not, this was all legitimate "spoils of war" belonging to Spain, in a time-honored tradition.

I do not think that Peru has a legitimate claim on the cargo of the Mercedes. Now the legal heirs to the owners of the cargo when the ship sank, or was sinking, that's another matter, if they can establsih their legitimate claim to specific objects.

Mariner
 

Question for Vox Veritas: Claudio, I have great respect for your research work and for your opinions, though I might not agree with a few of them (the Isla Misteriosa case which I researched in great detail and finally concluded that Zacarias was a pathological liar) but specifically I am very intrigued by the thesis you have been putting forward in the Spanish press whereby the remains Odyssey has found would not belong to the Mercedes but to either the Real Carlos or the San Hemeregildo both sunk in the vicinity in 1801. You somehow criticize Odyssey for not mentioning this "crucial"part of you theory. My question is since there are coins recovered that are from 1802, 1803 an 1804, according to the Peruvian expert that was sent to examine the coins, how does this fit into your theory?
Panfilo
 

Panfilo said:
Question for Vox Veritas: Claudio, I have great respect for your research work and for your opinions, though I might not agree with a few of them (the Isla Misteriosa case which I researched in great detail and finally concluded that Zacarias was a pathological liar) but specifically I am very intrigued by the thesis you have been putting forward in the Spanish press whereby the remains Odyssey has found would not belong to the Mercedes but to either the Real Carlos or the San Hemeregildo both sunk in the vicinity in 1801. You somehow criticize Odyssey for not mentioning this "crucial"part of you theory. My question is since there are coins recovered that are from 1802, 1803 an 1804, according to the Peruvian expert that was sent to examine the coins, how does this fit into your theory?
Panfilo
Click to expand...

Panfilo, the historical research about Swan Island (1605) demonstrates that the historical information of primary source affirms this way it. I simply remit myself to what the documents relate, neither I remove neither I add. About the Mercedes, I said that the well-known images can belong to the Real Carlos or the San Hemeregildo and I didn't say that in this same place where these two shipwrecks should be of it took out a treasure. On the other hand never have been given to know the exact place of the recovery of the treasure openly, so the doubt can persist and for long.
Also, in September or maybe October of 1804 the Spanish frigate Felix disappeared without anything was known. It could be of this ship that the treasure was recovered (this it is only a possibility). And it can have other possibilities ........
 

Panfilo, if you read Carroll Tedesco report to the court you will notice that coins dates are from 1773 to 1803,
she only gave some small totals 18 pre 1801 and 39 from 1802 these could have come from different wrecks ?
Hopfully Claudio will shed some light on the matter!
Don Jose. Spain was also plundered by the Roman's and forced to work as slaves in the gold mines and then the
Moores. we can go further back, Spain has a long history !
Cheers Ossy
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

JW Fisher Proton 3 Mag for sale

⬅️ Previous Thread

La Galga?

Next Thread ➡️

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
High Plains Prospectors

Latest Discussions

Back
Top