MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
Amona said:
why have LAWS when you can take what you want !Ossy
Odyssey Marine Article...
- Thread starter jeff k
- Start date
why have LAWS when you can take what you want !Ossy
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Good afternoon Amona: There is a vast difference between that and someone finding my great, great, grandfather's watch or penknife, or any of his personal belongings. especially if they were stolen, or obtained by force in the first place.
Incidentally, what would Spain, or any others, ever receive if no salvage for personal gain was allowed? Who would actually finance the research and actual salvage operations?
I sincerely doubt that if you were to find a cache of Pirate treasure on that island, that you would be very happy to give it "all" away.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Incidentally, what would Spain, or any others, ever receive if no salvage for personal gain was allowed? Who would actually finance the research and actual salvage operations?
I sincerely doubt that if you were to find a cache of Pirate treasure on that island, that you would be very happy to give it "all" away.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Amona
Sr. Member
- Apr 11, 2005
- 383
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Dear Real tayapoa
That Island is Mona Island. I'm visiting that island since 80's. I know it very well the rules there. My procedure when I cache hunting is the following:
1. I call it "Phase I", What does mean, I go to make a sort of survey with some high technology without dig, just to pick up evidence.If I find something then I can ask permission to commit the second step which is "Phase II"
2. Phase II means when I get permission to explore, what I detected with my equipment, I drill the soil and drop a camera to see what it is, I don't dig. In any moment I don't break the law. If I confirm that there is something big($$$) then I proceed to sign a contract with, because if I got evidence that I found treasure, according with the law I have the right to get part of it according with the law 1111 of buried treasure of 1958(?)
When I go cache hunting I do it not to give it away but share it with third parties that have legal rights over it. I'm very open mind in that point.
Amona
Vox veritas
Bronze Member
- Aug 2, 2008
- 1,078
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- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Don Jose, the matters of treasures (land and sea) are every day more complicated. Right now I have just read a forum where a person asks: the 7,200 Spanish currencies of the Portuguese ship San Jose that Arqueonautas is auctioning can be claimed by Spain? Why? Because in 1622, year of the shipwreck, Portugal was part of Spain (1580-1640).
For the matter Juno/Galga was taken out of the powder of the forgetfulness old treaties among Spain, United Kingdom and USA.
In 1974 Robert Stenuit recovers the load of the Dutch VOC Slot ter Hooge in waters of Portugal. The state wanted to keep everything, but Robert signed an agreement with Holland and he received his part.
For the matter Juno/Galga was taken out of the powder of the forgetfulness old treaties among Spain, United Kingdom and USA.
In 1974 Robert Stenuit recovers the load of the Dutch VOC Slot ter Hooge in waters of Portugal. The state wanted to keep everything, but Robert signed an agreement with Holland and he received his part.
old man
Bronze Member
Amona, You make me laugh. First of all if you find any of my fake Rolex watches on the beach you can keep them. Secondly, I am not sure that you can sign a contract for any treasure on Mona Island if you found it.
The last time I was on Mona Island, I spent a week there living in a cave by the grass strip that was used as an air field. That was several years before you started going there. Mona Island was a National Park at that time. Unless they changed the rules, I don't think you can dig for treasure on a National Park.
I will give you a few places to look. Did you ever find the cave that can only be seen from the water ? This cave has a small opening and is to the left left of the beach that used to have the no swimming signs because of the sharks.
There is also a hollowed out huge boulder near the airfield that still has old bricks cemented in place covering some of the openings.
Good Luck. I hope you find something. Oh, by the way, the cave near the water has a very old shovel laying in it.
The last time I was on Mona Island, I spent a week there living in a cave by the grass strip that was used as an air field. That was several years before you started going there. Mona Island was a National Park at that time. Unless they changed the rules, I don't think you can dig for treasure on a National Park.
I will give you a few places to look. Did you ever find the cave that can only be seen from the water ? This cave has a small opening and is to the left left of the beach that used to have the no swimming signs because of the sharks.
There is also a hollowed out huge boulder near the airfield that still has old bricks cemented in place covering some of the openings.
Good Luck. I hope you find something. Oh, by the way, the cave near the water has a very old shovel laying in it.
- Thread starter
- #286
Ed... You may as well talk to a stone wall. They talk about greed, but what they don't mention is that Odyssey offered to share the find with Spain and was turned down. I wouldn't call that greedy on Odyssey's part.
Vox veritas
Bronze Member
- Aug 2, 2008
- 1,078
- 273
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Jeff K said:
Jeff, why you don't tell the whole truth! Odyssey had permits from Spanish Foreign Office.
Clik on page 28: The Mercedes ploy
http://issuu.com/hcpgroup/docs/psg_...417b1780c04f491995936201404d5f34&layout=white
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
::Odyssey the truth Please !
Amona
Sr. Member
- Apr 11, 2005
- 383
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- GTI2500,Seahunter Mark II, Eagle eye two box
Oldman
I don't care if your Rolex is fake or not, I don't want it anyway, I just tried to put your statement in this forum as invalid argument and I did it. About Mona, Sorry but Mona is not a Nationa Park. Here in EU you can go to the jail if you're seen with a metal detector in any US park but in Puerto Rico, including Mona, it doesn't happen, the Puerto Rican has other reason to send somebody to the jail rather than somebody that is detecting or even working ilegally.About the;
In reference to that Hollowed out huge boulder,what is the name of the nearest cave with Taino's cave painting
Are you the guy that sent me a DVD about a treasure hunting in 1964 at Mona Island? That guy is from Spring Hill, FloridaLook the pic and tell me if you can see "National Park" in that sign in Mona Island
Regard
Amona
Attachments
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
In English.. Welcome , Natural reserve Island De Mona, Sardinera beach
Amona good luck with your search, hope to catch up next year
Ossy
Amona good luck with your search, hope to catch up next year
Ossy
Amona
Sr. Member
- Apr 11, 2005
- 383
- 9
- Detector(s) used
- GTI2500,Seahunter Mark II, Eagle eye two box
Right Ossy!! That is not a National Park. I don't know why Old man mention this subject about Mona here.Anyway, when he said "Rolex is fake" he is telling me that his argument is completely invalid about Finder keeper, because if the Rolez was "no fake" then he would claim it , accepting what I say, Vorex, you, that no matter if you find something in the beach or international water, if the original owner claim it,you have to recognize it and share what you found.
I suspect that Old man is a guy that sent me a DVD from Spring hill, Florida about an expedition that a group from NY made in 1964 to Mona island for treasure hunting. In that DVD you can see what they did, how they get in there and basically let you know that they find treasure because after the trip, that guy telling that him and the rest of two guys with him, after that expedition, set up business and they were monetarily prosper.If that is true, then, they broke the law there in Puerto Rico because they never ask a permission to remove any treasure,(according with the law 1111) making a tradition of looter instead treasure hunting respecting the rules.Also in that DVD he used a picture that I shot of Mona in 2000 and he never asked permission to use it.
So, Ossy, we're in a Looter forum! watch your butts!! and your wallet!!
Amona
old man
Bronze Member
Amona, Quit guessing. I wasn't even out of junior high school in 1964 and I never sent you anything. Don't assume. You are way off base and wrong.
Amona
Sr. Member
- Apr 11, 2005
- 383
- 9
- Detector(s) used
- GTI2500,Seahunter Mark II, Eagle eye two box
I'm not guessing, I'm suspecting. If you're not the guy, cool, but the way you talked to me about what you did in Mona before 80's pick me up suspect, that's it.Beside, all place that you mentioned are visited for local resident every weekend, so nothings new.
Amona
Amona
Sr. Member
- Apr 11, 2005
- 383
- 9
- Detector(s) used
- GTI2500,Seahunter Mark II, Eagle eye two box
Old Man
Apologize if you was insulted for my word. It wasn't my intention.Please keep this topic only limited to talk about Odyssey issue. Mona is in other category of subjets which is pretty much similar to Odyssey because many American treasure hunter has been there looting treasure without permit.If you like to tell me some place in Mona,welcome, but send me a PM.
Amona
Apologize if you was insulted for my word. It wasn't my intention.Please keep this topic only limited to talk about Odyssey issue. Mona is in other category of subjets which is pretty much similar to Odyssey because many American treasure hunter has been there looting treasure without permit.If you like to tell me some place in Mona,welcome, but send me a PM.
Amona
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Buenas dias Vox: You posted --->
Don Jose, the matters of treasures (land and sea) are every day more complicated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sigh, tell me. I have been sitting on top of one of the worlds largest, for almost 10 years now, still waiting for "all" of the permits. And one wonders why patience tends to wear thin and one tends to bypass normal legal procedures.-------X. In my case it is impossibleto recover it with out full legal authorization, because of my silly moral upbringing. Maybe my great grand childeren will benefit. Other than ego, I probably won't.
Don Jose de La Mancha
p.s. Hold up? Mainly interdepartmental jealousy as to who has authority over what. Too much departmental legal overlap.
Don Jose, the matters of treasures (land and sea) are every day more complicated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sigh, tell me. I have been sitting on top of one of the worlds largest, for almost 10 years now, still waiting for "all" of the permits. And one wonders why patience tends to wear thin and one tends to bypass normal legal procedures.-------X. In my case it is impossibleto recover it with out full legal authorization, because of my silly moral upbringing. Maybe my great grand childeren will benefit. Other than ego, I probably won't.
Don Jose de La Mancha
p.s. Hold up? Mainly interdepartmental jealousy as to who has authority over what. Too much departmental legal overlap.
- Thread starter
- #296
old man
Bronze Member
Jeff, Nice article. It's great to hear that someone is still out there finding treasure. Good Luck and fair Seas.
piratediver
Sr. Member
Some food for thought here.
Who owns our ancient past?
The Elgin Marbles were removed from the Acropolis of Athens
What should be done with objects from antiquity, when their provenance is uncertain?
From the debate over the British Museum's Elgin Marbles, to the conviction of art dealer Giacomo Medici in 2004 for selling millions of pounds worth of stolen Italian antiquities on the international market, curators face a minefield when acquiring new objects.
Now, the director of the Art Institute in Chicago, James Cuno, has argued that we should not waste time debating what to do with objects whose origin is less than completely certain.
He says that museums should simply take all the necessary steps to ensure that purchases are legal and are not looted or stolen.
But he opposes the concept that a country has an automatic right to have the antiquities that originated from their region returned, criticising the idea that there is "an indelible link back to the ancient peoples who by chance happen to occupy that bit of earth that modern nation states do now occupy".
Lord Renfrew, a former director of the McDonald Institute for archaeological research at Cambridge University, says Mr Cuno's argument "isn't good enough".
"The great problem at present is the destruction of the record of the past through looting," he says.
"If great museums feel free to buy anything then you have a free-for-all which encourages the looting of the past."
While the controversy over the Elgin Marbles stretches back to the 1800s, there are many more recent claims on notable antiquities.
KA NEFER NEFER
The mask was discovered in 1952 in the step pyramid at Saqqara
The 3,000-year-old Egyptian funerary mask, known as the mask of Ka Nefer Nefer, is on display at Missouri's St Louis Art Museum after it purchased the artefact in 1998.
In 2006, Egyptian authorities called for the mask to be returned after being alerted to an object that had been missing from their collection since the late 1950s.
They claim to have documentary evidence that the mask disappeared from museum storage in Cairo and was illegally smuggled out of the country.
But the museum has refused to return the mask, saying it was obtained legally and through the proper channels.
SEVSO SILVER
The Sevso Silver has an estimated value of £50-100m
The Sevso treasure is a collection of 14 intricately decorated silver objects, believed to date from the late Roman empire.
The silver was bought in the 1980s for an estimated £10m by Spencer Compton, the 7th Marquess of Northampton. But an attempted sale in 1990 fell through when the Republic of Hungary claimed ownership of the silver.
Hungarian authorities maintain that the treasure was discovered by a quarry worker in the Hungarian town of Polgardy, who hid the silver in an old wine cellar. He was then found hanged and the hoard mysteriously disappeared only to emerge later on the international market.
The Hungarians believe it should be returned to Hungary to be displayed in the national museum.
K'INICH B'AHLAM STELA
The stela overlooks the cafe at the Kimbell Art Museum
In the cafe of the Kimbell Art Museum in Fort Worth Texas stands a 7th Century Mayan limestone monument to king K'inich B'ahlam II.
It is alleged that the carving, known as a stela, was looted in the 1960s by a Mexican logger from a site in Guatemala known as El Peru-Waka.
The stela is legally owned by the museum as it was acquired before 1970, the date when UNESCO introduced conventions on the trade of illicit artefacts, but the Guatemalan government still claims that the carving should be returned.
In an attempt to ease the situation, the museum has arranged for an exact replica to be produced and given to Guatemala.
Pirate diver
Who owns our ancient past?
The Elgin Marbles were removed from the Acropolis of Athens
What should be done with objects from antiquity, when their provenance is uncertain?
From the debate over the British Museum's Elgin Marbles, to the conviction of art dealer Giacomo Medici in 2004 for selling millions of pounds worth of stolen Italian antiquities on the international market, curators face a minefield when acquiring new objects.
Now, the director of the Art Institute in Chicago, James Cuno, has argued that we should not waste time debating what to do with objects whose origin is less than completely certain.
He says that museums should simply take all the necessary steps to ensure that purchases are legal and are not looted or stolen.
But he opposes the concept that a country has an automatic right to have the antiquities that originated from their region returned, criticising the idea that there is "an indelible link back to the ancient peoples who by chance happen to occupy that bit of earth that modern nation states do now occupy".
Lord Renfrew, a former director of the McDonald Institute for archaeological research at Cambridge University, says Mr Cuno's argument "isn't good enough".
"The great problem at present is the destruction of the record of the past through looting," he says.
"If great museums feel free to buy anything then you have a free-for-all which encourages the looting of the past."
While the controversy over the Elgin Marbles stretches back to the 1800s, there are many more recent claims on notable antiquities.
KA NEFER NEFER
The mask was discovered in 1952 in the step pyramid at Saqqara
The 3,000-year-old Egyptian funerary mask, known as the mask of Ka Nefer Nefer, is on display at Missouri's St Louis Art Museum after it purchased the artefact in 1998.
In 2006, Egyptian authorities called for the mask to be returned after being alerted to an object that had been missing from their collection since the late 1950s.
They claim to have documentary evidence that the mask disappeared from museum storage in Cairo and was illegally smuggled out of the country.
But the museum has refused to return the mask, saying it was obtained legally and through the proper channels.
SEVSO SILVER
The Sevso Silver has an estimated value of £50-100m
The Sevso treasure is a collection of 14 intricately decorated silver objects, believed to date from the late Roman empire.
The silver was bought in the 1980s for an estimated £10m by Spencer Compton, the 7th Marquess of Northampton. But an attempted sale in 1990 fell through when the Republic of Hungary claimed ownership of the silver.
Hungarian authorities maintain that the treasure was discovered by a quarry worker in the Hungarian town of Polgardy, who hid the silver in an old wine cellar. He was then found hanged and the hoard mysteriously disappeared only to emerge later on the international market.
The Hungarians believe it should be returned to Hungary to be displayed in the national museum.
K'INICH B'AHLAM STELA
The stela overlooks the cafe at the Kimbell Art Museum
In the cafe of the Kimbell Art Museum in Fort Worth Texas stands a 7th Century Mayan limestone monument to king K'inich B'ahlam II.
It is alleged that the carving, known as a stela, was looted in the 1960s by a Mexican logger from a site in Guatemala known as El Peru-Waka.
The stela is legally owned by the museum as it was acquired before 1970, the date when UNESCO introduced conventions on the trade of illicit artefacts, but the Guatemalan government still claims that the carving should be returned.
In an attempt to ease the situation, the museum has arranged for an exact replica to be produced and given to Guatemala.
Pirate diver
- Thread starter
- #299
Odyssey Marine Exploration Files Admiralty Claims on Two Shipwreck Sites
Friday November 7, 9:00 am ET
TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NasdaqCM: OMEX), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, has filed Admiralty Arrest Complaints in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida on two separate shipwreck sites recently located by the Company.
Both sites lie in the North Atlantic Ocean beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation, over 300 miles from the entrance to the English Channel. The sites are both believed to be the remains of steel hulled vessels. Odyssey believes that valuable cargo may be located at or near both sites, but pending confirmation of the identity of the shipwrecks and identification of potential claimants, additional information will not be released.
As with other shipwreck sites that the Company arrests, once the identity of the shipwrecks are reasonably confirmed, any potential claimants identified through Odyssey’s research will be notified through appropriate private or public notices.
“The operation to locate and identify these shipwrecks was undertaken with a chartered ship and some new equipment and technology that we are testing for application on future projects while the Odyssey Explorer and Ocean Alert undergo their 5 year surveys and drydock, which we expect to take several months,” commented Greg Stemm, Odyssey’s CEO, “We have been impressed with the performance and seaworthiness of the ship and equipment we’re testing and plan to extend operations further into the winter than we have tried in the past.”
About Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc.
Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq CM: OMEX) uses innovative methods and state-of-the-art technology to conduct extensive deep-ocean search and archaeological recovery operations around the world. Odyssey discovered the Civil War era shipwreck of the SS Republic® in 2003 and recovered over 50,000 coins and 14,000 artifacts from the site nearly 1,700 feet deep.
In May 2007, we announced the historic deep-ocean treasure recovery of over 500,000 silver and gold coins, weighing 17 tons, from a Colonial era site code-named "Black Swan." Odyssey has several shipwreck projects in various stages of development around the world.
Odyssey offers various ways to share in the excitement of deep-ocean exploration by making shipwreck treasures and artifacts available to collectors, the general public and students through its webstore, exhibits, books, television, merchandise, and educational programs. JWM Productions is currently filming Odyssey expeditions for an 11-part primetime series for Discovery Channel, which is scheduled to air worldwide in early 2009. Odyssey’s “SHIPWRECK! Pirates & Treasure” exhibit has been featured in New Orleans, Tampa, and Detroit, and is currently on display at Science Museum Oklahoma in Oklahoma City, OK
Friday November 7, 9:00 am ET
TAMPA, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (NasdaqCM: OMEX), the world leader in the field of deep-ocean shipwreck exploration, has filed Admiralty Arrest Complaints in the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida on two separate shipwreck sites recently located by the Company.
Both sites lie in the North Atlantic Ocean beyond the territorial waters or contiguous zone of any sovereign nation, over 300 miles from the entrance to the English Channel. The sites are both believed to be the remains of steel hulled vessels. Odyssey believes that valuable cargo may be located at or near both sites, but pending confirmation of the identity of the shipwrecks and identification of potential claimants, additional information will not be released.
As with other shipwreck sites that the Company arrests, once the identity of the shipwrecks are reasonably confirmed, any potential claimants identified through Odyssey’s research will be notified through appropriate private or public notices.
“The operation to locate and identify these shipwrecks was undertaken with a chartered ship and some new equipment and technology that we are testing for application on future projects while the Odyssey Explorer and Ocean Alert undergo their 5 year surveys and drydock, which we expect to take several months,” commented Greg Stemm, Odyssey’s CEO, “We have been impressed with the performance and seaworthiness of the ship and equipment we’re testing and plan to extend operations further into the winter than we have tried in the past.”
About Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc.
Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. (Nasdaq CM: OMEX) uses innovative methods and state-of-the-art technology to conduct extensive deep-ocean search and archaeological recovery operations around the world. Odyssey discovered the Civil War era shipwreck of the SS Republic® in 2003 and recovered over 50,000 coins and 14,000 artifacts from the site nearly 1,700 feet deep.
In May 2007, we announced the historic deep-ocean treasure recovery of over 500,000 silver and gold coins, weighing 17 tons, from a Colonial era site code-named "Black Swan." Odyssey has several shipwreck projects in various stages of development around the world.
Odyssey offers various ways to share in the excitement of deep-ocean exploration by making shipwreck treasures and artifacts available to collectors, the general public and students through its webstore, exhibits, books, television, merchandise, and educational programs. JWM Productions is currently filming Odyssey expeditions for an 11-part primetime series for Discovery Channel, which is scheduled to air worldwide in early 2009. Odyssey’s “SHIPWRECK! Pirates & Treasure” exhibit has been featured in New Orleans, Tampa, and Detroit, and is currently on display at Science Museum Oklahoma in Oklahoma City, OK
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