Extra coffee alert - long reply, I ask your indulgence.
Oro, You know that I have the utmost respect for you and I know that you're much more knowledgeable about the Dutchman than I am. My post on page 1 is simply my thoughts on the man.
If the man is willing to go so far as to kill several people to protect the mine and risk his neck to get the ore out it would seem to me that he'd make the most of his trips to the mine. I would.
My belief is that he had a mine, maybe rich at first that eventually petered out. Was he a sociopath, he supposedly killed several people including his partner, did he just want to tell some tall tales in his latter years? I don't know, but nothing I've read about the man leads me to believe that he ever had a mine that could make several men millionaires.
I tend more to the belief that he was a sick, lonely old man who found that telling his story of immense wealth kept company coming by to visit him in his last days. JMO.
Hola amigo Culinary Caveman;
Of course you are entitled to your own opinions and views. I don't mean to come across as if insisting that everyone has to think MY way. Your points are excellent.
I don't buy that story of Waltz the psychopathic murderer, willing to gun down seven, eight nine or eleven (I have seen higher numbers) to steal and keep the gold mine. I will buy it that it is possible he may have killed over that mine, but we just don't know the circumstances. There were people whom would kill you to steal a rich gold mine, just as there are today. He may have had little choice of whether to shoot or not. In one (double murder) it is even pointed out that he thought they were Indians, and the Apaches were on the warpath for decades while Waltz was active. Anyway all that murdering may well have just been battling to save his own life during a really dangerous time to be in the Arizona mountains alone or with one partner.
Most of the Waltz-the-vicious-killer story comes from the Holmes version. We can point out some flaws in that version like the part about why Waltz did not file a claim, as he supposedly did not have citizenship when we know he was a citizen. I don't know who introduced those errors, it may even have been Waltz himself, for according to that same source, Holmes himself had tried to sneak and trail Waltz to the mine but got caught and believed he was nearly shot by Waltz for he saw the old man sitting up ahead on the trail with his rifle aimed right at him. Later he encountered Waltz in town and was told not to trail him again or he would be killed. So Waltz may have not liked Holmes and even though on his deathbed, told him a tall tale - which might be the real reason why Waltz several times in that "confession" seemed to be asking the lord for forgiveness.
Further - even though that set of directions in the Holmes manuscript tells you to go to First Water as the way to get to the mine, the very first place Holmes himself went to, to look for the trail to the mine was not First Water but Hidden Water, and then on across the Salt river etc. So if that set of directions is correct, why did not the alleged author follow them himself?
One last bit on this and I will shut up but Jacob Waltz sold off his own gold cache, his only "reserve" of money he had available, just to help out his friends Julia and Reiney. Psychopathic killers are not known for being sympathetic and helpful to people. Several others had memories of Waltz being not vicious but kindly, even making sure he had candy to give to little kids which to a kid in those days was a big thing to get free candy for the pioneers did not have lots of anything.
As to his story being just a tall tale to keep his care givers interested in him, well we do know that Waltz had been a successful prospector prior to his ever coming to Phoenix. He had sold all three mines but this proves that he knew how to find gold, which means that in the 23 years he lived at Phoenix, he certainly was capable of finding another gold mine. Most prospectors and treasure hunters can not quit prospecting and treasure hunting - it gets in your blood, just as I believe it is in your blood. If you struck it rich tomorrow, my bet is that you might take a vacation and set up your finances so as to not have any worries, but before long you would be right back out there hunting for treasures again. To outsiders who do not understand what treasure hunting is all about, that looks as if we are "greedy" but it has nothing to do with greed and I defy anyone to spend the day operating the number 2 shovel digging for treasure and then tell me it is all about greed. I believe that Waltz was just like that - not greedy, he had enough gold for a sort of emergency fund, he had his own farm where he seemed to live comfortably enough, and although he was already in his 60s when he settled in Phoenix, he still made trips to the hills with pick and spade, mule and rifle because that is what a prospector does.
Against this I would expect a vicious killer willing to murder anyone that got close to his mine, would have dug out as much gold as he could possibly get before he would ever leave the mine, so that he could then not have to worry about anyone finding it because it would be cleaned out. (Or the high values cleaned out I should say). If Waltz had been NOT a prospector just an old man with a tall tale, just a farmer, (and no insult to Arizonans intended here) he could have claimed a farm in California where some of the best soils and plentiful water were readily available, rather than settling in Phoenix where irrigation was necessary and the risk of losing your hair to roving Apaches remained a possibility.
I think the biggest problem is that there is just
SO much baloney and erroneous information that has gotten mixed with Waltz's basic story that it is virtually impossible to find the mine by following that mixed up information. There are over 100 clues all supposedly leading to his mine. Some of them are directly contradictory. Several other lost mine stories have been mixed in and I am convinced that some of these clues (most really) belong with those other mines, not with Waltz's. We can point to other lost mines with the same problem too like the lost Adams, and when you start mixing the clues together from different mines you are off on a wild goose chase.
Heck I don't even think the long, detailed deathbed "confession" is really accurate. He was dying of pneumonia and gasping for breath. It may be possible of course, but I strongly suspect that his listeners really only got some bits and pieces from Waltz himself, and had already known of the old Ludi-Peralta story and made the assumption that is one and the same with Waltz's mine so mixed the two together. Unfortunately there is reason to believe that Ludy-Peralta mine was a silver mine so can not be the same as Waltz's.
Just my
OPINION but I believe that geology is the key to finding this lost mine. It had to be discovered in the first place by someone, so the same approach that found it in the first place should work to find it again - however VERY few Dutch hunters are working from this approach (several of the oldest Dutch hunters do and this should tell us something) instead they try to solve the clues and work from old and questionable maps and satellite imagery. While this approach might work, it has been tried by many thousands of people for years upon years without luck.
I don't expect that some babble on an internet forum is going to change everyone's mind, and most people want to see some GOLD before they are going to believe so you are far from being unreasonable amigo. Just thought I would explain this and maybe you can see why some of us are convinced the mine exists and is worth going for. The evidence is certainly not enough for some people but this is the nature of lost mine hunting - the LDM is super famous now but with many lost mine stories we have far less information than with the LDM. The fact that so many have searched without success does not prove the mine doesn't exist; it proves that it is well hidden and we have Waltz telling his friends that he hid the mine well. He told Reiney that the mine was very hard to find even when you know where it is! Reiney did not listen well enough.
We could also point to some of the other lost mine "legends" that have been found and proven to NOT be legends, like the Wandering Jew, the Salero, the Tayopa group, the once famous Breyfogle (Amargosa), the Josephine, the old Mojave mine, (you can stand on the road west of Quartzsite and see this one) Goler's lost diggings, the lost Pima <Vekol>, the Old Padres mine, even the famous Silver King was for some years a lost mine legend. While this does not prove the Lost Dutchman's mine a reality, it shows that at least in some cases these "legends" are based on facts, even famous legends.
My apologies to all for yet another overly-long post from the windbag in Dakota. Perhaps we can proceed to try to sort out some of the evidence that rightfully should be linked to the lost Dutchman's mine, from the information that should not be linked.
Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
I have little doubt that your memory is better than mine. I still maintain that $250,000. worth of ore, in that time, would have been hard to keep secret. I believe it would have created quite a.....rush. No record of Waltz having that kind of cash.......ever.
