Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Azquester]

Bill what does that have to do with topic of thread.

It is all part of the chain of evidence.

First you look at the man and his credibility as we have no other testimony to go by.

If he was not a nice guy and he lied and all those associated with him lied how are we to determine if the evidence points to a conclusion all involved were telling the truth?

If he's not telling the truth and they weren't we can argue that the mine is not real and there by doesn't exist.

 

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[Treasure_Hunter]

It is all part of the chain of evidence.

First you look at the man and his credibility as we have no other testimony to go by.

If he was not a nice guy and he lied and all those associated with him lied how are we to determine if the evidence points to a conclusion all involved were telling the truth?

If he's not telling the truth and they weren't we can argue that the mine is not real and there by doesn't exist.

Someone being good or bad isnt really a good gage if they are lying or telling the truth about something. I know plenty of people who present the image of being good people who lie, and known bad people who told the truth...

 

[sdcfia]

I thought this "matchbox ore " argument was settled a couple months ago in the "New Show on the Dutchman" thread (early March), when gollum attempted to push the same idea. He eventually relented when I supplied Thomas Glover's own opinion on the "database" concept.

Here is the salient post, #1047, by me:

This is getting painful to watch - what are you trying to prove with your totally fallacious database prop? I'll quote Glover himself on the issue, The Lost Dutchman of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream, page 275. "... the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

Glover tested the jewelry ore against the Vulture Mine and six other ore samples known or suspected to have come from the Superstition Mountains and Goldfield mines. More: "No ore samples survive from many of the documented historic mines, some of whose locations we may not even know today. Anyone who has studied mining history knows that it is often poorly or incompletely documented. Consider the number of early mines worked for only a brief period, exhausted of ore and then closed over a century ago; the number of mines worked without declaration; the early mines worked which were incompletely documented; and the number of mines for which the documentation has been lost or destroyed. Given this history, it is silly to think that a collection exists anywhere with 'samples of gold ore from every known Arizona mine' ". Page 282.
I believe I pointed out the same information in Post#927. If you can't accept my observations, why not Glovers? In effect, the jewelry ore could have come from anywhere in Arizona. Or CA, NM, or MX too, for that matter.

Earlier Post # 927, by me:

Glover made a decent case that the ore did not match the selected ore samples saved from a part of the Vulture Mine, as I recall, and maybe some other grab samples saved from some of the the Gila/Salt area mines. Fine and dandy. PERIOD.

The rest of your statement implies that the "LDM sample" was matched against samples from "all known mines", which is absurd. In the first place, where exactly is this database and/or ore sample collection that includes all these known mines? Mines from CA, AZ, NM, MX, CO, et al? Hundreds of mines, many of them with different geology in different parts of the same mine. Possibly thousands of potential matches. Who exactly was it that collected these samples and stored them, and where are they available for analysis? Glover didn't provide these details.

Secondly, and more to the point, why would anyone believe that all the point sources of rich ore with visible gold showing (picture rock) from the early Anglo period are known? There were thousands of small mines, glory holes, shallow prospects, etc that yielded picture rock in various quantities. Hell, there's an old Spanish/Mexican glory hole ten minutes from my house that has never even been claimed that yielded several pounds of thick wire-gold as recently as 40 years ago. The hole was never more than six feet deep. The matchbox ore is terrific stuff, sure, but by no means unique. Not even close.

 

[cactusjumper]

I thought this "matchbox ore " argument was settled a couple months ago in the "New Show on the Dutchman" thread (early March), when gollum attempted to push the same idea. He eventually relented when I supplied Thomas Glover's own opinion on the "database" concept.

Here is the salient post, #1047, by me:

This is getting painful to watch - what are you trying to prove with your totally fallacious database prop? I'll quote Glover himself on the issue, The Lost Dutchman of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream, page 275. "... the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

Glover tested the jewelry ore against the Vulture Mine and six other ore samples known or suspected to have come from the Superstition Mountains and Goldfield mines. More: "No ore samples survive from many of the documented historic mines, some of whose locations we may not even know today. Anyone who has studied mining history knows that it is often poorly or incompletely documented. Consider the number of early mines worked for only a brief period, exhausted of ore and then closed over a century ago; the number of mines worked without declaration; the early mines worked which were incompletely documented; and the number of mines for which the documentation has been lost or destroyed. Given this history, it is silly to think that a collection exists anywhere with 'samples of gold ore from every known Arizona mine' ". Page 282.
I believe I pointed out the same information in Post#927. If you can't accept my observations, why not Glovers? In effect, the jewelry ore could have come from anywhere in Arizona. Or CA, NM, or MX too, for that matter.

Earlier Post # 927, by me:

Glover made a decent case that the ore did not match the selected ore samples saved from a part of the Vulture Mine, as I recall, and maybe some other grab samples saved from some of the the Gila/Salt area mines. Fine and dandy. PERIOD.

The rest of your statement implies that the "LDM sample" was matched against samples from "all known mines", which is absurd. In the first place, where exactly is this database and/or ore sample collection that includes all these known mines? Mines from CA, AZ, NM, MX, CO, et al? Hundreds of mines, many of them with different geology in different parts of the same mine. Possibly thousands of potential matches. Who exactly was it that collected these samples and stored them, and where are they available for analysis? Glover didn't provide these details.

Secondly, and more to the point, why would anyone believe that all the point sources of rich ore with visible gold showing (picture rock) from the early Anglo period are known? There were thousands of small mines, glory holes, shallow prospects, etc that yielded picture rock in various quantities. Hell, there's an old Spanish/Mexican glory hole ten minutes from my house that has never even been claimed that yielded several pounds of thick wire-gold as recently as 40 years ago. The hole was never more than six feet deep. The matchbox ore is terrific stuff, sure, but by no means unique. Not even close.

Apr 28, 2015, 10:28 AM
#154 cactusjumper

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Dec 2005

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Roy,

"Further, the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous.
No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

I think that statement is pretty clear. It has nothing to do with the quality of testing that was done by Thomas.

On the other hand, I'm sure you are correct about the records of what he tested against. Never, personally, looked
into it. While I have researched the LDM, I never searched for it.....on my own.

Randy tells me the Rendezvous will likely be on the 24th. and 25th. of Oct.

Take care,

Joe​

Oroblanco likes this.

_________________________

I think we agree.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azblackbird]

Secondly, and more to the point, why would anyone believe that all the point sources of rich ore with visible gold showing (picture rock) from the early Anglo period are known? There were thousands of small mines, glory holes, shallow prospects, etc that yielded picture rock in various quantities. Hell, there's an old Spanish/Mexican glory hole ten minutes from my house that has never even been claimed that yielded several pounds of thick wire-gold as recently as 40 years ago. The hole was never more than six feet deep. The matchbox ore is terrific stuff, sure, but by no means unique. Not even close.

I find those "glory holes" all the time in the Bradshaws. Not a single record of any claims or ownership on them. Some may have had some very rich veins or specimens in them at one time or another, but I'll never know, cause I wasn't the one digging the hole.

What's funny is that many of the so-called mines that I researched and were recorded or documented to the AZ mineral dept... I'd say most of them I've found were only a 10 ft. to 40 ft. deep pit, or were a 10 ft. to 40 ft. adit inside a hill. Very few mines I've found were actually real mines. I'm talking head frames, ore carts, multi-level deep underground tunneling, crushing and smelting plants, etc.. Those are "real" mines to me... the rest are just holes in the ground.

One of these days I'll eventually find my own "glory hole" or a very rich placer... the old-timers were pretty thorough but they didn't get it all.

 

[Oroblanco]

AZBlackbird wrote

According to the Dutch Hunters here, Waltz was not a greedy man. Obviously he prospected and mined for gold just for the exercise and his love for the great outdoors. He wasn't in it for the money or riches. He was a very compassionate man and enjoyed helping people who were down on their luck. His meager existence was proof positive that whatever gold he may have found over his lifetime of prospecting was destined for charity purposes only

How cynical. So if you helped out ONE friend, perhaps your closest friend at that, when they were faced with bankruptcy, ONE time in your life -then you are "enjoying helping people down on their luck" ?

Do you believe that prospecting for gold means you are looking to get rich or there is no possible other reason? It is a way of making a living, not always a way to get rich. You are trying to judge a man's motives and actions who lived over a century ago by your own standards. Some people would go prospecting if they never made a dime at it. Ever read Robert W. Service?

There's gold, and it's haunting and haunting;
It's luring me on as of old;
Yet it isn't the gold that I'm wanting
So much as just finding the gold.

<from The Spell of the Yukon, Robert Service, online at: [/SIZE][URL="http://www.robertws...odules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=83[/SIZE] [/url]

Perhaps digging for pennies in the town park might be more to your liking?

Steve and I have gone round and round over this point on the ore comparison before, and I remain RESPECTFULLY in disagreement. You are wrong, and Dr Glover is wrong. The U of A even has a collection of minerals today that most museums are envious of. You and Joe have posted your doubts and counter-arguments several times, but read Bob Corbin's and Tom Kollenborn's affidavits:

quote

I was told by the individual who owns the assay report, jewelry and ore that this ore had been sent to the University of Arizona, School of Mines which has samples from every known Arizona gold mine to see if the ore could be matched up. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona, School of Mines had informed him that this ore came from an unknown source.

<The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold, Helen Corbin, facsimiles of two affidavits from Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn, pp 232-234>

In the same source, we also have this statement from Helen herself, quote:

The same businessman, preferring to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, also showed Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin a letter from the Univerity of Arizona's School of Mines which stated that ore quote "came from no known Arizona mine".

<ibid, pp 30>


I have tremendous respect for Dr Glover but he is not perfect. That he could not find the collection does not prove it never existed. We do not know exactly when the comparison was done - it could have been decades ago, when the collection was available for such a comparison. I stand by my statement that a geologist can readily identify an ore by the minerals it is made up from (basically the country rock) which are always unique to each mine.

History >> The University of Arizona Mineral Museum <started in 1887 so could certainly have been in existence when the comparison was done>

UAMM-Samples <this is their online database of minerals>

Some of the gold and ore specimens have even been put out in exhibits, quote:

[h=2]Gold! Flandrau’s Desert Gold Rush
February – May, 2003[/h]The Flandrau Science Center, Department of Geosciences and The University of Arizona Mineral Museum featured an exhibit displaying more than 150 spectacular specimens of natural gold. Exhibits discussed Arizona’s lost gold mines, the Gold Standard and the many uses of gold from past to present. Contributors that helped to make this exhibit possible included: the Arizona Historical Society, Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum, Harvard Mineralogical Museum, and many private collectors.

Bill Riley - your view of Waltz as some kind of vicious mass murderer is not upheld by evidence. While it is certainly possible that he may have killed to protect himself or his property, neither you nor I was present so cannot say for certain what the circumstances were.

Oroblanco

 

[azdave35]

I find those "glory holes" all the time in the Bradshaws. Not a single record of any claims or ownership on them. Some may have had some very rich veins or specimens in them at one time or another, but I'll never know, cause I wasn't the one digging the hole.

What's funny is that many of the so-called mines that I researched and were recorded or documented to the AZ mineral dept... I'd say most of them I've found were only a 10 ft. to 40 ft. deep pit, or were a 10 ft. to 40 ft. adit inside a hill. Very few mines I've found were actually real mines. I'm talking head frames, ore carts, multi-level deep underground tunneling, crushing and smelting plants, etc.. Those are "real" mines to me... the rest are just holes in the ground.

One of these days I'll eventually find my own "glory hole" or a very rich placer... the old-timers were pretty thorough but they didn't get it all.

alot of the holes you find out there are test holes.....back in the 50's and 60's some of the bigger mining companies would hire a backhoe and have him dig on all the outcrops that looked good...maybe there was a little copper stain on the surface so they would dig down on the outcrop...if it got richer it turned into a mine..if it got weaker they quit digging and go on to the next......thats why you see alot of shallow digs out there....also like azblackbird said.....some were surface deposits that pinched out fast and alot of times they were very rich...in the goldfield area along the west side of highway 88..some of that area is block faulted...so there are alot of rich surface deposits...there are many shallow holes in that area that produced jewelry rock....if they would have kept shafting even after the deposit pinched they would have probably picked it up again

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Museum history:
• 1884: A collection of minerals is first displayed at the Arizona State Fair.
• 1917: The Legislature provides $30,000 to construct a permanent home for the collection at the Arizona State Fairgrounds. Private funds help complete the work.
• 1919: The building opens with the Arizona State Fair.
• 1953: The collection, still at the fairgrounds, opens full-time as a museum.
• 1973: The museum becomes part of the Arizona Department of Mineral Resources.
• 1991: The museum moves with the Department of Mines and Mineral Resources to its present location on West Washington Street near the Arizona State Capitol.
• 2011: Closed to make way for a centennial-themed museum that has yet to open.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

If you click on this link, you can see that, on May 25, 1901, the collection was already in existence, and that they were actively pursuing getting all the ore samples from every mine and prospect in Arizona. Bottom of the page, third column, the headline is "MINERAL COLLECTION" . There are many more newspapers from the times that talk about it.

The St. Johns herald. (St. Johns, Apache County, Arizona Territory [Ariz.]) 1885-1903, May 25, 1901, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
You are wrong, and Dr Glover is wrong. The U of A even has a collection of minerals today that most museums are envious of. You and Joe have posted your doubts and counter-arguments several times, but read Bob Corbin's and Tom Kollenborn's affidavits<cut>

The affidavits were taken in good faith I'm sure, but that doesn't establish their premise. I'm sure the UA collection is impressive, but what of those other envious museums you've mentioned - and the hundreds of other private mineral collections throughout the west. Are their samples in your database too?

Does the UA collection include samples from all original AZ outcroppings, plus from all the stopes, drifts and levels that came later in the larger developed workings? What about all the smaller undocumented AZ prospects that have produced an untold number of picture rock specimens - particularly the hundreds, if not thousands, that were simply sold for bean money and either disappeared to the mills or found their way to private collectors. And that's just AZ. What about CO, CA, NM, MX? Picture rock is harder to find in 2015, but I imagine there was lots of it around a hundred years ago.

 

[azblackbird]

alot of the holes you find out there are test holes.....back in the 50's and 60's some of the bigger mining companies would hire a backhoe and have him dig on all the outcrops that looked good.

I know backhoe diggings when I see them, I was a heavy equipment operator for several years. The pits, holes, and adits I normally find are are all hand dug... the pick, shovel, and bore blast marks are still on the walls. I prospect in areas that are only accessible by foot, horse, mule, Rokon, or a very good dirt bike or trials bike rider. I gave up horses, and I hate hiking, so I ride dirt bikes. I have to be very careful when prospecting as there have been many times I've come up on very deep pits out in the middle of nowhere that were overgrown with cactus, catclaw, and various other desert flora. Luckily I take things nice and slow when prospecting and always have my eyes on the ground and ahead of where ever I'm riding. My worst fear is accidentely riding/falling into a 50 ft. deep pit that is barely visible on the surface. My second worst fear is getting snake bit.

 

[Oroblanco]

The affidavits were taken in good faith I'm sure, but that doesn't establish their premise. I'm sure the UA collection is impressive, but what of those other envious museums you've mentioned - and the hundreds of other private mineral collections throughout the west. Are their samples in your database too?

Does the UA collection include samples from all original AZ outcroppings, plus from all the stopes, drifts and levels that came later in the larger developed workings? What about all the smaller undocumented AZ prospects that have produced an untold number of picture rock specimens - particularly the hundreds, if not thousands, that were simply sold for bean money and either disappeared to the mills or found their way to private collectors. And that's just AZ. What about CO, CA, NM, MX? Picture rock is harder to find in 2015, but I imagine there was lots of it around a hundred years ago.

OK show me a specimen of ore that matches (perfect) to the matchbox ore; Exact match - and you are free to take that example from any of the states you mention, plus I will throw in Australia, Europe, Asia, Africa, South America and North America. Find a perfect match and you have the source of the gold that Holmes had made into the jewelry and that he stated came from Waltz, as did Julia and Reiney by accusation. I did not say the comparison was done with every source of gold on the planet, but considering that Waltz lived in Arizona (documented) from 1863 to 1891, that really narrows down the area where the source of the gold COULD be. It can't be from any where other than Arizona - but I will let you present any sample from anywhere in the world, but it has to match perfectly.

Oroblanco

 

[Azquester]

Someone being good or bad isnt really a good gage if they are lying or telling the truth about something. I know plenty of people who present the image of being good people who lie, and known bad people who told the truth...

So what your saying is Waltz as a person could be telling the truth or lying we don't know? The fact he's either good or bad has nothing to do with his truthfulness?
Credibility goes a long way in a court of law and as far as I know back in those days a mans deathbed testimony was considered truth.
Since we can't haul him in put him under oath and ask him we have to go by what the testimony of others are saying he said during his deathbed confession.
We all know what witnesses told us he said while dying. So what your saying is it makes no difference if they were lying or telling the truth he was a perfect man had no
bad qualities didn't kill anyone and was just a real heck of a Dude to be your friend? What evidence did the three he told the story to on his deathbed present?
His Ore? Verbal second hand information which by todays standards would be called Hearsay. Why did the three of them tell the same story about his killing of men?
It could be embellishment for a better story or to lead one astray from the real truth. Did they beyond a doubt give evidence of his mine as being real?
All I can say to that is they never found it and so far publicly no one else has presented evidence that it is real you can verify or put a reasonable coherent chain of events that would lead one to believe it's been found. If you do believe the three confidants how can you believe a very sick and dying person with delirium from Pneumonia?

It's all hard to shallow and it don't pass the smell test.

Even if you found a mine and said Ah Ha! It's the Dutchman mine! How could you prove it beyond a doubt?

I don't know if it's possible or not. Even with the supposed ore samples that the three gave us can we fit that to other ores?

Possibly, maybe. I think his tools and stash with a mine that is exactly as he said would be the best route. Even then though there would be doubts unless he left something with his name on it you could verify he purchased but I doubt he left that kind of evidence at his mine site for fear he may be discovered.

Something to think about.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

a mule lover eh ? good taste. oro blanca.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

OK show me a specimen of ore that matches (perfect) to the matchbox ore; Exact match - and you are free to take that example from any of the states you mention, plus I will throw in Australia, Europe, Asia, Africa, South America and North America. Find a perfect match and you have the source of the gold that Holmes had made into the jewelry and that he stated came from Waltz, as did Julia and Reiney by accusation. I did not say the comparison was done with every source of gold on the planet, but considering that Waltz lived in Arizona (documented) from 1863 to 1891, that really narrows down the area where the source of the gold COULD be. It can't be from any where other than Arizona - but I will let you present any sample from anywhere in the world, but it has to match perfectly.

Oroblanco

What - precisely - are the criteria you wish applied to determine this perfect match?

Every deposit has variations. Every deposit has it most concentrated point and it thins out in all directions away. Perhaps the quartz looks completely free of metals except to the scrutiny of the most accurate testing, but then later riches up again. Is that another deposit or a variation? Samples from the same deposit can appear and test different and samples from various places can be similar.

What do you claim is the criteria to eliminate (as well as match)?

 

[Not Peralta]

have some Did anyone ever hear anything about the Dutchman returning back to the bradshaws for any reason, did waltz ever have friends from any where else visit him, how come his old mining
partners never came to see him, how come the old miners from the bradshaws never recognized him, there's no one back then that knew anything about the man calling him self Jacob Waltz.?
why is that, maybe its because he wasn't the real Jacob Waltz,? maybe that's the real mystery here. maybe the real Jacob Waltz and his partners were killed in the bradshaw mnts and someone
took over his identity, stole their gold , moved, and needed a good cover story for having so much gold, so he let people think he had a hidden mine in the mnts. maybe his death bed confession was
actually about killing the real Jacob Waltz and his partners.? NP

 

[Hal Croves]

I tend to believe that there is a mine out there somewhere but I'm not sure about the claims of it's richness. My problem being, why would a guy with an Uber rich gold mine live such a hard scrabble existence on a chicken farm? Isolated, few friends..? Just my thoughts.

It may be a side to this thread however, research and compare Lord Duppa's life to that of Waltz. Duppa was a remittance man and extremely wealthy compared to other farmer, settlers, miners. Yet, he essentially lived a reclusive life and was at times described to look like a wild man until he came into town to get cleaned up.

Walz, Duppa, and many like them were damaged men, running from their pasts. Rolling Stones stuck in the sand.

 

[sdcfia]

OK show me a specimen of ore that matches (perfect) to the matchbox ore; Exact match - and you are free to take that example from any of the states you mention, plus I will throw in Australia, Europe, Asia, Africa, South America and North America. Find a perfect match and you have the source of the gold that Holmes had made into the jewelry and that he stated came from Waltz, as did Julia and Reiney by accusation. I did not say the comparison was done with every source of gold on the planet, but considering that Waltz lived in Arizona (documented) from 1863 to 1891, that really narrows down the area where the source of the gold COULD be. It can't be from any where other than Arizona - but I will let you present any sample from anywhere in the world, but it has to match perfectly.

Oroblanco

That's what I've been trying to say - I can't show you a matching ore sample because there is no comprehensive set of samples to compare the matchbox ore against. Despite the 1901 "call for ore samples", what chance is there that all gold ore sources that were located, exploited, abandoned and forgotten between 1863-1891 (or earlier) are accounted for? Slim to none, IMO - heavy on the "none".

Could the matchbox ore have come from some mysterious "lost mine" in the Superstitions? Sure, anything's possible. Could it have come from a source not in those hills? Absolutely. You asked for evidence in this thread. Until proof is provided, the matchbox ore, while very nice stuff, cannot be assumed to have originated in the Superstitions. If you need to conclude that it did to shore up your beliefs, that's fine - but your beliefs are not evidence.

 

[hooch]

If you click on this link,
The St. Johns herald. (St. Johns, Apache County, Arizona Territory [Ariz.]) 1885-1903, May 25, 1901, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

I cured my drunkenness by clicking on that

 

[Oroblanco]

That's what I've been trying to say - I can't show you a matching ore sample because there is no comprehensive set of samples to compare the matchbox ore against. Despite the 1901 "call for ore samples", what chance is there that all gold ore sources that were located, exploited, abandoned and forgotten between 1863-1891 (or earlier) are accounted for? Slim to none, IMO - heavy on the "none".

Could the matchbox ore have come from some mysterious "lost mine" in the Superstitions? Sure, anything's possible. Could it have come from a source not in those hills? Absolutely. You asked for evidence in this thread. Until proof is provided, the matchbox ore, while very nice stuff, cannot be assumed to have originated in the Superstitions. If you need to conclude that it did to shore up your beliefs, that's fine - but your beliefs are not evidence.

Apparently you discount the Arizona collection simply because Dr Glover wrote in his book that it never existed. It is not the only such collection. You seem to need to discount everything that points to a real lost mine associated with Jacob Waltz, to shore up your beliefs. I don't mean that you must now go hunt for such a match personally, literally. We can establish Jacob Waltz's presence in Arizona from 1863 to 1891 so really any match should come from Arizona and there has long been a collection for that state. But when we have people making the claim that this mine or that one is the LDM, then we should be able to compare a specimen and get some kind of scientific answer rather than a lot of subjective interpretations over clues.


I am NOT setting the criteria, and will accept the conclusion of a geologist for a match. I could be fooled, so could many of us. I was almost convinced that now famous ring with the piece of ore might be from the LDM. I was not totally convinced because it did look a bit different but ores can look a bit different from different places in the vein. A geologist said the ring ore was a CLOSE match but not perfect, and I thought perhaps that is close enough but now know it must be a perfect match or it is not from the same vein. A match should have large grain size as a minimum - any with small or tiny grain size is a different type of deposit and can not have produced the jewelry ore so we don't have to bother a geologist if the specimen is clearly Epithermal. It must not have very much silver in relation to the gold present as we know from the assay performed by Joe Porterie that the radio was over 2500 gold to 1 silver so if we have an assay on the ore (being compared) and it returns with 300 oz of silver to 4000 gold, we can rule that out as certainly not from the same source and almost certainly not the right type (Hypothermal).

I am not a geologist but have been prospecting for a little over thirty years. I have talked to several geologists about this over the years and wish that our skeptics would instead of jumping at me over it. An ore comparison is the best available scientific way to settle the question of whether someone has found the mine associated with Jacob Waltz. All other methods are open to temporizing, subjective interpretation and fudging.

Not Peralta while that is an interesting theory, the signature of Jacob Waltz from his naturalization papers and later on the petition (done in the Bradshaws) and later in Phoenix looks to be the identical signature to me. If someone murdered him it would have had to happen before he got his citizenship papers in Los Angeles California, and before he ever came to Arizona. I have seen some interesting things about a Jacob von Walzer that might be a completely separate story and mine however, and it is entirely possible that these two stories have been mixed together by treasure hunters. Stories have been getting mixed together around the Lost Dutchman apparently since the night Waltz died! Interesting speculation though.

Hooch apparently you read the wrong article. It is evidence that such a collection of minerals and ore specimens WAS being collected, and this article dates to 1901. A key sentence from the editorial is quote:

"We would like to have samples from every mine and good prospect in the territory."

The collection is stored in the basement of the museum today, and is not open to the public. But it did and still does exist.

Oroblanco