Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Oroblanco]

Just to point out what I am trying to get at with Dick Holmes, Julia Thomas and Reinhardt Petrasch, all of whom stated that Waltz had a rich gold mine and that Holmes ended up with the gold ore in the candle box beneath his deathbed. I realize that modern court lawyers love to attack eyewitnesses but this is hardly a court case. It has long been a precedent that the truth may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. <John 18:7 KJV>

"Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." <2 Corinthians 13:1>

and many other like examples. This we have three witnesses whom all stated Waltz had a rich gold mine, well hidden, located in the Superstition mountains. Not necessarily in the Wilderness Area, which boundaries did not exist in 1891. In fact the mountains were long called the Salt River mountains anyway. These three witnesses further enhanced their statements as truthful by actually going out to search for the mine themselves, which they would hardly have done if they had been lying.

Against this we have a lot of speculation and theory. These three witnesses knew Waltz when he was alive. There are several others we could cite as well. How many witnesses can we find that knew Waltz when he was alive, that state he had no such mine?

Oroblanco

 

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[sdcfia]

Just to point out what I am trying to get at with Dick Holmes, Julia Thomas and Reinhardt Petrasch, all of whom stated that Waltz had a rich gold mine and that Holmes ended up with the gold ore in the candle box beneath his deathbed. I realize that modern court lawyers love to attack eyewitnesses but this is hardly a court case. It has long been a precedent that the truth may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
<cut>

Well, your point might have legs if these three had seen the mine. Did they see the mine, or are they just repeating what Waltz told them?

Apparently you discount the Arizona collection simply because Dr Glover wrote in his book that it never existed. It is not the only such collection. You seem to need to discount everything that points to a real lost mine associated with Jacob Waltz, to shore up your beliefs. <cut>

I discount the stated completeness of the UA collection, or any other, pure and simple. With no public access to the samples/data, what good is the UA stockpile? [By the way, wasn't Waltz's candlebox alleged to have contained a couple hundred pounds of rocks? If so, I wonder how much variation in ore characteristics existed across the various pieces? Wouldn't it be interesting to find that different pieces in the box didn't match each other?]

I'm ambivalent about the Waltz mine's existence. With no reliable evidence (IMO) with which to make a judgement, all I can say is that it's a darn good yarn, but way too lacking in any substance to pursue seriously. I think the old man may have simply had a stash of highgrade ore that he obtained prior to moving to Phoenix. Many have strongly disagreed with my opinion. So be it. If I wanted to chase a rich lost mine rumor, I'd be more interested in something like UncleMatt's Lost Carson mine in CO.

 

[azblackbird]

I am not a geologist but have been prospecting for a little over thirty years.

Wow! 30 years of prospecting... kudos to you man!

Do me a big favor Oro... since you're probably the most experienced "prospector" here in the LDM threads, could you please tell everybody here how you would prove a claim, and what steps you would take in offering it up for sale. I'm still a newbie to prospecting, so any advice you give will be well digested. Thank you in advance for your knowledge.

 

[Azquester]

An XRF X-ray Fluorescence Analysis for up to 70 elements would do the trick and tell you if the ore matched the match box case. But that would require a small sample from the back of the ore in the front of the case which would require the owner give permission to have the match box disassembled by a known Jeweler and reassembled when completed. I would think he would not do this unless he was paid a hefty sum and saw the other ore which looked identical in composition. There would need to be some assurances the case would be as it was when completed.

This would be the only thing that would prove beyond a doubt you found the same ore as in the case and thus found the source of Jacob's Gold. You would need to prepare yourself it may not be from a mine he owned it could be high graded from the Vulture or one his Bradshaw mines.

 

[Oroblanco]

Well, your point might have legs if these three had seen the mine. Did they see the mine, or are they just repeating what Waltz told them?



I discount the stated completeness of the UA collection, or any other, pure and simple. With no public access to the samples/data, what good is the UA stockpile? [By the way, wasn't Waltz's candlebox alleged to have contained a couple hundred pounds of rocks? If so, I wonder how much variation in ore characteristics existed across the various pieces? Wouldn't it be interesting to find that different pieces in the box didn't match each other?]

I'm ambivalent about the Waltz mine's existence. With no reliable evidence (IMO) with which to make a judgement, all I can say is that it's a darn good yarn, but way too lacking in any substance to pursue seriously. I think the old man may have simply had a stash of highgrade ore that he obtained prior to moving to Phoenix. Many have strongly disagreed with my opinion. So be it. If I wanted to chase a rich lost mine rumor, I'd be more interested in something like UncleMatt's Lost Carson mine in CO.

Steve sometimes you surprise me. Have you not read any of the books, articles etc on the LDM? If you do not know the answers to these questions you just posed, then you may benefit from re-reading the accounts.

You can certainly discount the "completeness" of the UA collection all you wish - it never said that it had EVERY POSSIBLE source of gold on the planet. You are looking at it like an absolute or nothing. The letter shown to Corbin and Kollenborn simply stated that they had samples from every (known) mine in ARIZONA and the sample did not match any of them. Unknown source. If someone finds a gold deposit TODAY and wants to know for certain that it is or is not the LDM, a comparison can be made.
You are welcome to your own opinion about the LDM being a "yarn" and not enough substance for you to pursue. Good for you - and I wish you luck on the Lost Carson mine, I really do hope you find it. And please post some photos when you do, I would like to see it and am not being sarcastic in saying that.

Azblackbird - thank you for the kind words! You will need to lay out a grid on your claim, space your samples at least ten feet apart and start taking samples all over the claim, following your grid. If it is a placer claim, you will need to pan out samples from each spot (rather time consuming but is very important information). Write down the panning results for every sample including those that have nothing, and be honest because a buyer will not be happy with you if they find out you fudged the results. Mining companies do not expect that every square foot of a claim is loaded with gold, they know that some parts will have little or nothing.

It would be best if you can dig or drill to bedrock (for a placer claim) or you will have to drill core samples in a grid pattern if it is a lode. This can get very costly and a mining company will want to see assay results on every core sample. Alternatively if the cost is prohibitive, you can chip out samples by hand and a few "grab" samples of the visible ore from the grid, and just crush the samples and pan them out, and of course keep a record of all results including the negative ones. Make sure you get the GPS coordinates for every sample you take, and write that down with every test result.

Photos of the vein or placer ground are helpful and if water is readily available or nearby is a good thing to show. Most mining requires plenty of water and if you have power near by that will be a plus too. If this is a placer claim one piece of information that is important is how deep to bedrock (if you can dig to it or drill to it) and where you find the precious metals, and how thick the paystreak is. If the paystreak is discontinuous and spotty, that should be disclosed too.

Before you list the claim for sale, be sure to check at the BLM records office that your claim is not in conflict with any other active mining claim, even if they are a different type (lode vs placer) for this can lead to a lawsuit against you long after you sold the claim. Don't get alarmed if there IS some boundary conflict, but this will need to be resolved in court before you sell it. As a general rule, the older mining claim will pre-empt the newer one where boundaries conflict, but not in every case. In many cases if you simply talk to your neighbor (claim owner) it is possible to find a happy agreement on the boundaries without having to resort to courts at all.

In my OPINION the best place to sell your claims are in the classified section of the International Mining Journal, but there are many other venues available and some are even sold on Ebay. If you have good photos and have made a map of the mineralized ground, along with your best assessment of how much gold (or other valuable minerals you are proposing to sell) is really present, even if the values are not that great, you will have interested buyers. Make sure your claim is properly marked out according to state and federal laws, each state has their own requirements so there is some (minor) variation, or if in northern Canada follow the requirements listed in the relevant Act (either Placer or Lode) as they are fairly different from US requirements. Also make sure you have the correct Township, Range and Section for these are how claims are legally located not just by GPS coordinates although GPS is nice for most people, it is not what the law requires.

If you have any geologic reports that cover your area where your claim is, or any history of it (previous owners, previous production if it was a mine at one time etc) this information is always a selling point. Even old newspaper accounts that mention your mine have relevant information that buyers could be interested in. If you can afford it, you could hire a geologist to spend a day examining your claim for his written opinion, this is expensive but not that expensive and can increase the value of your property by having an "official" or educated estimate on its value rather than just from a prospector. On the old geologic reports and history, even if these are on adjoining or neighboring mines, it is relevant as it is a fact that very often veins can run for considerable distances or be discontinuous, and crop up in nearby areas due to faulting, slipping of bedrock etc. So if your neighboring mine had a huge production, while this does not prove that your claim has the same, it is a good indicator that your claim COULD have similar results.

I hope this helps you a bit, there are quite a few others here with many years of experience and some with far more than me (Real de Tayopa for example) so you have a pool of knowledge available at your fingertips. Good luck to you and I hope you find that your claim is SO rich that you won't want to sell it!

Sorry for the somewhat off topic portion there, and I am sure many others here can offer advice and tips equally good or better than these suggestions.
Bill - I like the ordinary spectrographic analysis, which is also pretty accurate, but not perfect either.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS to AZblackbird - just wanted to add that even an old "played out" mine can be brought back to life very profitably. The old Sixteen to One mine in California was widely believed to have been played out decades ago, but a few partners got together and purchased the claims for very little cash. By using metal detectors to search inside the old mine workings where NO gold was visible any longer, they have managed to pull out over a million dollars in gold per day on a number of occasions. This is why some of us are very skeptical about when people are saying a mine is "all cleaned out" or "played out" etc, for in the old days there were no metal detectors, if the ore did not have visible values, the mine could have been abandoned as "cleaned out" when in reality it is almost impossible to get every speck, and certainly not financially feasible even if you did.

 

[azdave35]

Wow! 30 years of prospecting... kudos to you man!

Do me a big favor Oro... since you're probably the most experienced "prospector" here in the LDM threads, could you please tell everybody here how you would prove a claim, and what steps you would take in offering it up for sale. I'm still a newbie to prospecting, so any advice you give will be well digested. Thank you in advance for your knowledge.

blackbird...if you are just wanting to claim a placer claim and sell it you dont have to do much testing on it..its usually a newbie or out of stater that buys claims here...i doubt you'd ever get a big mining co. interested in placer in arizona...they have had enough battles with the blm and the forrest service to know they arent going to be allowed to mine them on a big scale........just stake it...do a little drywashing and panning..take pics and put it on ebay..i know a guy that makes a living doing that..they bring between 500 and 1500 on ebay...a hard rock claim is different...a couple years ago you could get between 10k and 50k for a GOOD hardrock claim...the canadians were buying them like hot cakes...but now that the price of gold has dropped and the canooks have had some ring time with the blm and forrest service they have wisened up and they arent buying now

 

[austin]

SGTFDA found gold in those mountains and I suspect that it is a lot like the Llano Uplift area of Texas. Millions of years of wind, water and ice(erosion) has broken and washed out the bigger veins. Washed them down creeks and draws and left deposits. Possibly Waltz discovered one such place. Didn't he say he found it where no prospector would ever look? I have a feeling that sgtfda is very, very close. My money is on him...

 

[sdcfia]

You are welcome to your own opinion about the LDM being a "yarn" and not enough substance for you to pursue. Good for you - and I wish you luck on the Lost Carson mine, I really do hope you find it. And please post some photos when you do, I would like to see it and am not being sarcastic in saying that.
<cut>

Whoa. Remember, I said, "If I wanted to chase a lost mine". If I were younger, eager and lived in SW Colorado, the Carson would be the sort of target that would interest me because of the story's provenance and it's relative obscurity. The tale, it's protagonist and the limited evidence seems to ring true, and if Matt decides to go after it, let's wish him fortunate times.

Besides, I've never looked for projects in my life: treasure targets, jobs, women or otherwise - projects have always seem to have found me. I'm semi-active on a "treasure project" here in New Mexico. That's why I've still look in on TNet - I like to watch a few threads to see if something pops up that may have some connection to my stuff. The LDM, some Jesuit stuff and the Caballos. As you may know, I feel that many of these are related.

 

[Oroblanco]

Whoa. Remember, I said, "If I wanted to chase a lost mine". If I were younger, eager and lived in SW Colorado, the Carson would be the sort of target that would interest me because of the story's provenance and it's relative obscurity. The tale, it's protagonist and the limited evidence seems to ring true, and if Matt decides to go after it, let's wish him fortunate times.

Besides, I've never looked for projects in my life: treasure targets, jobs, women or otherwise - projects have always seem to have found me. I'm semi-active on a "treasure project" here in New Mexico. That's why I've still look in on TNet - I like to watch a few threads to see if something pops up that may have some connection to my stuff. The LDM, some Jesuit stuff and the Caballos. As you may know, I feel that many of these are related.

Hey I was trying to wish you luck IF you were considering going after the lost Carson mine. I do know that you are still actively involved on a treasure project, but IMHO there is no such thing as a "hobby" treasure hunter or prospector for that matter. It may be a hobby up until a big find is made then all bets are off. I have not been following UncleMatt's thread and don't know anything about the lost Carson mine. I wish HIM luck.

Actually there is some reason to see links between the Caballos, the LDM and the Jesuits. I think they are rather tenuous, but it is a fact that the Jesuits were encroaching into NM and this seems to have been kept almost a secret for some reason. Just more OPINION but I suspect that linkage to the Superstitions has more to do with silver and not Waltz.

AZDave - I had the impression that he was asking what I would do to prove up a claim, with an eye to selling it to someone seriously interested in mining it. A couple of photos and a few sentences will do to sell a "hobby" type claim. I think some of the mining companies are still interested in Arizona too, and as we have seen in recent history, regardless of the enviromentalists, if you are big enough the govt will make accommodation. Rosemont and Resolution Copper are a couple of examples. If you have claims with good values in minerals you might get their attention. Don't write off the Mom-n-Pop operators either, may not be that many in AZ now but they might be interested. Maybe I read the question wrong.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Apparently you discount the Arizona collection simply because Dr Glover wrote in his book that it never existed. It is not the only such collection. You seem to need to discount everything that points to a real lost mine associated with Jacob Waltz, to shore up your beliefs. I don't mean that you must now go hunt for such a match personally, literally. We can establish Jacob Waltz's presence in Arizona from 1863 to 1891 so really any match should come from Arizona and there has long been a collection for that state. But when we have people making the claim that this mine or that one is the LDM, then we should be able to compare a specimen and get some kind of scientific answer rather than a lot of subjective interpretations over clues.


I am NOT setting the criteria, and will accept the conclusion of a geologist for a match. I could be fooled, so could many of us. I was almost convinced that now famous ring with the piece of ore might be from the LDM. I was not totally convinced because it did look a bit different but ores can look a bit different from different places in the vein. A geologist said the ring ore was a CLOSE match but not perfect, and I thought perhaps that is close enough but now know it must be a perfect match or it is not from the same vein. A match should have large grain size as a minimum - any with small or tiny grain size is a different type of deposit and can not have produced the jewelry ore so we don't have to bother a geologist if the specimen is clearly Epithermal. It must not have very much silver in relation to the gold present as we know from the assay performed by Joe Porterie

Where can I see a copy of this?

that the radio was over 2500 gold to 1 silver so if we have an assay on the ore (being compared) and it returns with 300 oz of silver to 4000 gold, we can rule that out as certainly not from the same source and almost certainly not the right type (Hypothermal).

Will that be the only criteria - sample with low Ag/Au ratio?

I am not a geologist but have been prospecting for a little over thirty years. I have talked to several geologists about this over the years and wish that our skeptics would instead of jumping at me over it. An ore comparison is the best available scientific way to settle the question of whether someone has found the mine associated with Jacob Waltz. All other methods are open to temporizing, subjective interpretation and fudging.

Please explain what this 'ore comparison' is - or at least what you think it is.

Not Peralta while that is an interesting theory, the signature of Jacob Waltz from his naturalization papers and later on the petition (done in the Bradshaws) and later in Phoenix looks to be the identical signature to me. If someone murdered him it would have had to happen before he got his citizenship papers in Los Angeles California, and before he ever came to Arizona. I have seen some interesting things about a Jacob von Walzer that might be a completely separate story and mine however, and it is entirely possible that these two stories have been mixed together by treasure hunters. Stories have been getting mixed together around the Lost Dutchman apparently since the night Waltz died! Interesting speculation though.

Hooch apparently you read the wrong article. It is evidence that such a collection of minerals and ore specimens WAS being collected, and this article dates to 1901. A key sentence from the editorial is quote:

"We would like to have samples from every mine and good prospect in the territory."

The collection is stored in the basement of the museum today, and is not open to the public. But it did and still does exist.

Oroblanco

How does that quote imply they received even any sample?

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

Where can I see a copy of this?

Talk to Bob Corbin the owner of the ring.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Will that be the only criteria - sample with low Ag/Au ratio?

No, obviously.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

Please explain what this 'ore comparison' is - or at least what you think it is.

Since you have such a problem with EVERY thing I say, why don't you just ask a geologist? Most of them are pretty nice people and love to talk 'shop'.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote

How does that quote imply they received even any sample?

It does not - it is proof that they were working to assemble the collection at least as early as 1901. The incident of the ore comparison was done many years after that. It was posted because we had people doubting there ever was any such collection. Contact the U of A if you have other questions, link posted earlier.


　

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote


Talk to Bob Corbin the owner of the ring.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote


No, obviously.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote


Since you have such a problem with EVERY thing I say, why don't you just ask a geologist? Most of them are pretty nice people and love to talk 'shop'.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr also wrote


It does not - it is proof that they were working to assemble the collection at least as early as 1901. The incident of the ore comparison was done many years after that. It was posted because we had people doubting there ever was any such collection. Contact the U of A if you have other questions, link posted earlier.


　

Your thread title asks if there is evidence. Is it unreasonable to ask you to show it when you make the claim?

So what else do we need besides the ratio? You brought up the idea of making a comparison yet will not tell us what to compare or the criteria. I have never heard of an 'ore comparison' I figured since you are using the term you know what it is. Care to share?

And I guess everybody can still comfortably doubt, since all we have is that they were working to assemble the collection, not that any such collection was ever accomplished or if something was put together what it actually ended up as. Two samples? 2% of mines ever claimed? What?

 

[Oroblanco]

Your thread title asks if there is evidence. Is it unreasonable to ask you to show it when you make the claim?

So what else do we need besides the ratio? You brought up the idea of making a comparison yet will not tell us what to compare or the criteria. I have never heard of an 'ore comparison' I figured since you are using the term you know what it is. Care to share?

And I guess everybody can still comfortably doubt, since all we have is that they were working to assemble the collection, not that any such collection was ever accomplished or if something was put together what it actually ended up as. Two samples? 2% of mines ever claimed? What?

You are absolutely welcome to doubt all you wish - stay home, go fishing - it won't bother me at all. The thread is for the discussion of the proof there is, and I have posted some of it already. If this is not enough for you, probably we could safely assume that the Lost Dutchman is just not going to be your thing. I have tried to explain things but it seems that every thing I say just gets your type popping up to challenge it. So if you will not ask a geologist what an ore comparison is, maybe you will talk to an assayer? They are expert in it too. Based on your string of skeptical, doubt-filled questions, I get the distinct impression that searching for lost mines of any kind will not suit you.

To all - this is the Treasure LEGENDS section, not the recorded mine files and records or court dockets. A lot of research has been done on this legend and it is not without any supporting evidence. Our skeptics want absolute, indisputable proof for everything and that is not what hunting a lost mine is. Oh there is one case that I know of, in which not only was the mine filed and recorded, but a US Bureau of Mines study was done on it, and that mine remains lost today (the lost topaz mine of Devils Head, CO) however this is the exception and not the rule. In many lost mine legends, all we have is the story from a person who found it and lost it.

The list of established facts around the Lost Dutchman is short. If that is not enough for you - great for you, you won't have to spend any time or effort searching for it. There is a great deal of BS that has been blended into the story so that it is not just a mish-mosh but some is directly contradictory, as with the funnel shaped pit and tunnel, OR the relatively small mine shaft with an opening no larger than a barrel. It can not be both, however it CAN be two different mines that have gotten confused together by earlier treasure hunters. I am certain this is the case.

The evidence posted, is IN MY OPINION certainly enough to warrant a treasure hunter to search for the mine. After all, even if you were searching for the mythical Easter Bunny mine, the fact that you are going out searching is actually increasing your odds of finding something great. No one ever found a fortune by sitting at home watching TV or playing on the internet.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS to Conceptualized - yes indeed I do know what an ore comparison is and what is looked for. I have had it done a few times, not on the LDM however. I know of others whom have had ore comparisons done as well, including Bob Corbin. I mentioned another instance in which an ore comparison proved the lost Breyfogle mine is the Amargosa mine by an exact match. Since you are so curious about the process and doubt every word I say, you need to talk to an assayer or a geologist to get the answers you seek.

To all: An ore comparison has other uses besides trying to ID a lost mine, since most lost mines have left us no ore specimen to compare to; however it is a legal precedent that a blind lead from an ore body, is a separate deposit, and must be filed on separately as a separate claim because it is a different ore deposit even though it may even touch the ore body it is being compared to. Ore comparisons have even been used in court, to settle claim disputes concerning blind lead type ore shoots located near mines.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Not sure if compares to epithermal ...

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Cat scan?

 

[Oroblanco]

Nice ore!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

As a half a---- assayer, ore does need to be compared, since the composition of the specimen needs to have a certain combination of chemicals to process it most efficiently. Once the process is tentatively established the rest is easy.

Otherwise you are going by an educated guess, which works out quite well, generally.

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa you are correct, as usual. Some ores have minerals and chemical compositions which make them refractory to smelting heat and thus difficult to extract the metals, requiring special additives (and in some cases extra treatment steps) to successfully extract most of the metal values.


For all - I had the impression that one member here was just baiting and challenging everything I say to have an argument, but perhaps some of you really don't know what an ore comparison is and would like to know what exactly is done. A geologist or assayer examines the specimens with at least a 10x power jewelers loupe or high powered microscope, and identifies the different minerals that make up the HOST ROCK, as well as a visual comparison of any visible precious metals. These minerals are noted, and how much of each; <quantitative analysis> and the mineral grains are measured for size. The size of the mineral grains is one method by which the different types of ore veins are classed, so this too is important information. The exact sizes chosen to delineate the classes are arbitrary, and one expert may have the older values while another may go by a newer standard but the variation is not that much. Fairly often some relatively rare mineral will be found in the host rock, which can then be a key identifier, for example if the ore specimen has some gold telluride, this is fairly rare, and if both specimens do not have this mineral then that is a point of difference. Other keys are such factors as signs of heat alteration differences, oxidation and so forth. Anyone who doubts what I just wrote, please do talk to a geologist or an experienced assayer. No two gold mine ores <from different mines obviously> have the identical mineral composition and grain size. Also, sometimes the geologist likes to cut <saw> a surface of the specimen flat and polish it to enhance the use of magnification (microscope) but this is not always done.

I am not a geologist just a prospector so have probably left out some of what is done in the comparison. Heck I have been doing this for thirty years and am STILL learning geology.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco