Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"But then only a cheechako would turn up his nose at camp coffee, no real sourdough would!"

Just whom are you calling a tenderfoot? I got enough hair on my back to weave an Indian blanket, and you're calling me a novice? I drank Native coffee in Vietnam and Alaska and kept a smile on my face, but Don Jose has been warning us about Beth's Sock Coffee for years and it's become difficult not to heed his words.

At 70, and in failing health, I have decided it would be the better part of valor to give up on trying (just about) anything once. Besides that, I've heard that your Sock Coffee turns you into a.........sheep lover.



Joe

 

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[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"The "Jacobs and Ludy" story found in Barry Storm's first book, Trail of the Lost Dutchman, can be checked to a degree. They were supposedly ex-Confederate soldiers, hence the reason why Don Peralta was happy to hire them as guards. A look through the military records turns up two men both named Ludy or Ludi, JACOB Ludy and a relative named Charles (if memory serves, correction welcome) and they had served in Missouri in the Union army. So they had been Civil War soldiers, and we could say they might the real soldiers be at the root of the "2 Soldiers" mine associated with the Superstition mountains, rather than the assortment of other lost Soldier mines scattered all over Arizona in the Dripping Springs mountains, Mazatzal mountains, Granite Wash range, Gila Dome range and several others."

At some time in the distant past, I believe I found some evidence that their outfit spent some time in Tucson, as well.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Old]

There is, I believe, much more circumstantial evidence to support the existence of the mine then there is circumstantial evidence that Jacob Waltz never had a mine.

I’m a big fan of weighing verbal evidence based on being able to establish multiple unrelated sources of the same or very similar verbal evidence. The hunter’s here may disagree. And that’s perfectly okay.
Here just a couple such instance of substantially the same story from multiple unrelated sources.

Clay Worst……..a noted historian and Dutch hunter……searched the archives of Mexico and interviewed several Peralta and Gonzales decedents. His base information tells us. There were multiple Peralta trips to the Superstitions. His contacts and research reveal the family had and worked 8 mines. The last venture made, a clandestine trip, concentrated on 3 of those mines. Those 3 being the most prosperous. (Do the numbers look familiar, they should!) Those mines were the La Mina del Sombrero, El Placer and La Mina del Oro. The Placer and La Mina del Oro being close in proximity and the La Mina del Sombrero being somewhat removed from them. The scope and dimensions of the mines are given and fit nicely with the no bigger than a barrel descriptions we have seen many times since. Mr. Worst is still with us, I believe, and can substantiate his findings. For those that doubt, you have but to ask him.

Herman Petrasch….although he himself never spoke directly with Jacob Waltz, he was in close contact with his brother Rheiney and Julia Thomas. Both of which had ample time and opportunity to speak with and listen directly to Waltz. Herman tells us the Mexicans had 8 mines in the Superstitions and Waltz worked two of them in close proximity. Waltz learned of these mines through his Mexican contacts. Those mines, as supposedly related by Waltz, were named The Placer and The Quartz. Whether or not La Mina del Oro and The Quartz are one in the same I can not say with any certainty although that would be my opinion. The Placer and El Placer being one in the same is more than likely, I’d say highly probable. The evidence that there were 8 mines with these being two of the richest and of most importance is likewise, highly probable.

We have good reason to believe Waltz first worked a placer deposit. My guess “El Placer”. We are told the location of this deposit was given/sold to Waltz (and possibly Weiser) in exchange for favors to the Peralta family. The second deposit, a hard rock mine, was found by Waltz from the sounds of hammer strikes in close proximity to his placer works Some accounts tell of Waltz murdering the Mexican workers to steal the mine. Other accounts tell of him finding the miners already dead and burying them. Either or neither could be true.

Early maps of the Arizona Territory support the fact there were workings and ruins prior to 1860 that were considered “old” in 1860. Waltz, Reed, Worst, Petrasch, and many other descriptions all fit there being early rich Mexican workings in the area. This miners did not travel hundreds of miles in harsh conditions, in hostile territory for a handful of nuggets. If that was their goal they could have found it in much more favorable territory close at hand in Mexico.

Now let’s add to the mix the most interesting story of John Reed. John Reed was the son of an early drifter of the Southwest. The elder Reed was a rough type and, by my reading of his son’s description, an opportunists with few moral limitations. After Adolph Ruth’s death, John Reed contacted Erwin Ruth by letter. Several letters were exchanged between Reed and the younger Ruth.

John Reed tells us his father worked Waltz’ mine long before Waltz ever came upon it. The elder Reed supposedly met with and spoke several times with the Mexican miners. Could this be the last clandestine trip of the Mexican’s as told by Mr. Worst’s historic research? Who can say? The only thing it truly substantiates is the mines were worked by Mexicans over a long period of time well into the early period of the 1860’s.

Reed, as a young boy, traveled with his father to the mine on at least two different occasions, once about 1881 encountering Waltz. Again in this tale, Mexican miners play a significant role in the elder Reed’s first learning of the mine location. Also we are told of the general location of a richer mine in close proximity.

John Reed supplies us with a rough sketch depicting the mine, with the small vertical shaft and boot shaped adit. The mine being in an elevated mostly flatten area which sloped to either side, each with a brushy approach.

Reed gives us specific years of his travels with his father. The terrain, the condition of the mine, the type and look of the host rock.

Reed’s last trip with his father was round or about 1888. On this trip they find the mine covered with the surrounding area sweep clean of evidence. Just as Waltz said he did. They reopened the mine and found logs in two layers criss crossing the opening. Those logs still had bark and would have therefore been a somewhat recent addition. Fits nicely with the time frame of what Herman tells us of Waltz last trip to the mine being round or about 1884. Waltz tells us he used logs and covered them with dirt sealing the mine and the tunnel and removed all evidence from the area.

Reed accompanied Mr. Worst on a trip through the area in the early 1950’s to try to relocate the mine. Unsuccessful, of course. Aylor and Worst often pondered whether or not Reed’s story was true. In trying to satisfy their minds they seemed to adopt an opinion that it was just a wishful story fabricated around written accounts published in the early years following Waltz’s death. The only thing, no small thing!, is they never could reconcile how Reed had such detailed knowledge of Waltz’s descriptions which HAD NOT yet been published.

I offer but one explanation, subject to your rejection and your criticism. Reed’s story is true. It’s weak on distance and some details. Certainly understandable as remembered 60 some years later of adventures of a lad of 5 and later 12, years of age. But; the gist of the story as related is true.

The fatal mistake that cost Mr. Worst his one genuine opportunity to find the location was, as is so often true today, he placed Reed in the territory Worst thought the mine to be. It wasn’t. Had he moved over one ridge further I believe he and Reed would have found what so may have since looked for. Your mileage may vary.

If you have stayed with me this far I appreciate your indulgence.
Lynda

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

"But then only a cheechako would turn up his nose at camp coffee, no real sourdough would!"

Just whom are you calling a tenderfoot? I got enough hair on my back to weave an Indian blanket, and you're calling me a novice? I drank Native coffee in Vietnam and Alaska and kept a smile on my face, but Don Jose has been warning us about Beth's Sock Coffee for years and it's become difficult not to heed his words.

At 70, and in failing health, I have decided it would be the better part of valor to give up on trying (just about) anything once. Besides that, I've heard that your Sock Coffee turns you into a.........sheep lover

Well you don't know what you are missing! I would point out that it is not the coffee that will get you to prefer to work with sheep than cattle however, it is working with the wild range cattle found on ranches in the northern plains and hills. They have four legs like the Holsteins and eat hay but the resemblances are merely visual, some of them are actually called (not joking) man-eaters! They are not exactly like handling dairy cows in the east. Besides what is so bad about the woolies? Don't you like lamb chops, especially BBQ chops? Heck amigo you could put up a fence around your lawn, toss a couple of sheep in there and never have to mow it again! Are you against labor-saving? <heh heh>

Side thing here (to all) I am yanking Joe's chain here, he is NO cheechako and as Don Jose would say, has left his boot prints from the gold fields of Alaska to the Mexican border and probably beyond as well. Vietnamese native coffee has been reported to peel paint, cure sick water buffalo, and cause hair to grow on the palms of hands and other areas. This is why I can hardly believe he would be finicky about his coffee!

I recall seeing something that directly links the Ludy men to Arizona not so long ago (a few years? In fact it may have been you that sent it to me Joe, although I have found some documentation myself) and units from various areas did get sent into Arizona during the Civil War especially from California but also from New Mexico (directions, from west and east both).

I am fairly convinced that if there is a truth behind the lost Peralta mine story, these are the men involved. I suspect (strongly) that the story got blended in with Waltz perhaps even before his death, perhaps by the Ludy men being referred to as "Dutchmen" and the name Jacob, with Waltz's first name being Jacob. In other words a leap of conclusion made that was done erroneously, thinking JACOB Waltz must be the JACOBS or JACOB Ludy from the Peralta story. They were two soldiers, and were in AZ in the time period. I wonder if that "soldier grave" and soldiers buttons found in La Barge may not have been theirs?

Actually this is more evidence that earlier treasure hunters have been mixing together different stories with the Waltz story, from a very early time. We might wonder exactly when this occurred for in the earliest published account of the LDM, by Bicknell, there is NO mention of this romantic tale. Bicknell's first article,
"Where is the Silver,"Arizona Daily Gazette Nov. 5, 1894, was on a lost SILVER mine - this then morphs into a Peralta GOLD mine later.

I think we can lay the blame for some of this mixing/confabulation at the feet of our newspapermen. Bicknell was a newsman, Sims Ely was a newsman, Terry was a newsman, heck I suspect that Thomas Penfield might have been a newsman, at least he certainly pored through numerous newspaper articles and accounts. Not to cast too much aspersion on newsmen, for without them we probably would have very little to go on concerning the LDM and many other lost treasures, but they did not fully understand the topic they were writing about. Some did not know a lode from a placer. Others we rely on for information had occupations and experience equally unrelated to mining and prospecting, John D. Mitchell worked for the railroad, Jim Bark was a rancher, Adolph Ruth was a veterinarian. I don't want to denigrate any of these occupations, but they do not teach you about prospecting or mining.

Old - great post! Thank you for taking the time to explain, although I respectfully disagree on some points your post is well written.

Don Jose', el Tropical Tramp - Aiiiiee Chihuahua!

Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

There is, I believe, much more circumstantial evidence to support the existence of the mine then there is circumstantial evidence that Jacob Waltz never had a mine.

I’m a big fan of weighing verbal evidence based on being able to establish multiple unrelated sources of the same or very similar verbal evidence. The hunter’s here may disagree. And that’s perfectly okay.
Here just a couple such instance of substantially the same story from multiple unrelated sources.

Clay Worst……..a noted historian and Dutch hunter……searched the archives of Mexico and interviewed several Peralta and Gonzales decedents. His base information tells us. There were multiple Peralta trips to the Superstitions. His contacts and research reveal the family had and worked 8 mines. The last venture made, a clandestine trip, concentrated on 3 of those mines. Those 3 being the most prosperous. (Do the numbers look familiar, they should!) Those mines were the La Mina del Sombrero, El Placer and La Mina del Oro. The Placer and La Mina del Oro being close in proximity and the La Mina del Sombrero being somewhat removed from them. The scope and dimensions of the mines are given and fit nicely with the no bigger than a barrel descriptions we have seen many times since. Mr. Worst is still with us, I believe, and can substantiate his findings. For those that doubt, you have but to ask him.

Herman Petrasch….although he himself never spoke directly with Jacob Waltz, he was in close contact with his brother Rheiney and Julia Thomas. Both of which had ample time and opportunity to speak with and listen directly to Waltz. Herman tells us the Mexicans had 8 mines in the Superstitions and Waltz worked two of them in close proximity. Waltz learned of these mines through his Mexican contacts. Those mines, as supposedly related by Waltz, were named The Placer and The Quartz. Whether or not La Mina del Oro and The Quartz are one in the same I can not say with any certainty although that would be my opinion. The Placer and El Placer being one in the same is more than likely, I’d say highly probable. The evidence that there were 8 mines with these being two of the richest and of most importance is likewise, highly probable.

We have good reason to believe Waltz first worked a placer deposit. My guess “El Placer”. We are told the location of this deposit was given/sold to Waltz (and possibly Weiser) in exchange for favors to the Peralta family. The second deposit, a hard rock mine, was found by Waltz from the sounds of hammer strikes in close proximity to his placer works Some accounts tell of Waltz murdering the Mexican workers to steal the mine. Other accounts tell of him finding the miners already dead and burying them. Either or neither could be true.

Early maps of the Arizona Territory support the fact there were workings and ruins prior to 1860 that were considered “old” in 1860. Waltz, Reed, Worst, Petrasch, and many other descriptions all fit there being early rich Mexican workings in the area. This miners did not travel hundreds of miles in harsh conditions, in hostile territory for a handful of nuggets. If that was their goal they could have found it in much more favorable territory close at hand in Mexico.

Now let’s add to the mix the most interesting story of John Reed. John Reed was the son of an early drifter of the Southwest. The elder Reed was a rough type and, by my reading of his son’s description, an opportunists with few moral limitations. After Adolph Ruth’s death, John Reed contacted Erwin Ruth by letter. Several letters were exchanged between Reed and the younger Ruth.

John Reed tells us his father worked Waltz’ mine long before Waltz ever came upon it. The elder Reed supposedly met with and spoke several times with the Mexican miners. Could this be the last clandestine trip of the Mexican’s as told by Mr. Worst’s historic research? Who can say? The only thing it truly substantiates is the mines were worked by Mexicans over a long period of time well into the early period of the 1860’s.

Reed, as a young boy, traveled with his father to the mine on at least two different occasions, once about 1881 encountering Waltz. Again in this tale, Mexican miners play a significant role in the elder Reed’s first learning of the mine location. Also we are told of the general location of a richer mine in close proximity.

John Reed supplies us with a rough sketch depicting the mine, with the small vertical shaft and boot shaped adit. The mine being in an elevated mostly flatten area which sloped to either side, each with a brushy approach.

Reed gives us specific years of his travels with his father. The terrain, the condition of the mine, the type and look of the host rock.

Reed’s last trip with his father was round or about 1888. On this trip they find the mine covered with the surrounding area sweep clean of evidence. Just as Waltz said he did. They reopened the mine and found logs in two layers criss crossing the opening. Those logs still had bark and would have therefore been a somewhat recent addition. Fits nicely with the time frame of what Herman tells us of Waltz last trip to the mine being round or about 1884. Waltz tells us he used logs and covered them with dirt sealing the mine and the tunnel and removed all evidence from the area.

Reed accompanied Mr. Worst on a trip through the area in the early 1950’s to try to relocate the mine. Unsuccessful, of course. Aylor and Worst often pondered whether or not Reed’s story was true. In trying to satisfy their minds they seemed to adopt an opinion that it was just a wishful story fabricated around written accounts published in the early years following Waltz’s death. The only thing, no small thing!, is they never could reconcile how Reed had such detailed knowledge of Waltz’s descriptions which HAD NOT yet been published.

I offer but one explanation, subject to your rejection and your criticism. Reed’s story is true. It’s weak on distance and some details. Certainly understandable as remembered 60 some years later of adventures of a lad of 5 and later 12, years of age. But; the gist of the story as related is true.

The fatal mistake that cost Mr. Worst his one genuine opportunity to find the location was, as is so often true today, he placed Reed in the territory Worst thought the mine to be. It wasn’t. Had he moved over one ridge further I believe he and Reed would have found what so may have since looked for. Your mileage may vary.

If you have stayed with me this far I appreciate your indulgence.
Lynda

The John Reed story has always been something near the top of my list of interesting things as they relate to the LDM. I remember asking Clay Worst once what he thought about John Reed and his story and his answer was summed up very well by you in your post - he came to the conclusion that Reed was probably just an opportunist who put together a convincing story, but I remember Clay shaking his head a little and saying at the end that even though that was his conclusion, he never could quite figure out how Reed knew more than a few details that had never been made public.

Personally I think the closest they came to finding the mine was when Reed got involved and I still think his information is worth looking into.

 

[markmar]

Old

Nice post and I believe close to the reallity .

The only correction which I believe fits with my research ( and could not be the correct one ) , is how the Waltz's Quartz mine was La mina del Sombrero . The other 7 mines are in other region ( about two miles far ) including La Placer and La mina del Oro ( Caverna Aurum from the Latin stone heart ) which are in the same line ( from the mountain top to the bottom of the canyon ) with a third mine ( Moneta in the Latin stone heart ) .
I believe so how the Waltz's Placer mine was an outcropping gold in quartz vein which was/are below the Quartz mine , and was first worked out like a small mine only by Waltz .

 

[Old]

Oro, please expand on where you disagree. I'm totally open to a difference of opinion.

 

[Old]

Cub, I totally agree. I think Reed's information is woefully under utilized. Then and now.

He knew enough to shock those who had come to know a lot. He appears to be a strange figure in this whole saga. He knew a lot, told a lot, but I believe he had more that he never told.

Seems pretty obvious to me on that trip though La Barge canyon he was looking for that one "something". The lynch pen, so to speak, that he was looking for to know he was on the right trail. He never revealed that.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, please expand on where you disagree. I'm totally open to a difference of opinion.

Old - I doubt we can find two Dutch hunters that will agree on every point of the LDM, certainly not on the location.

I agree with Clay Wurst that Reid appears to have been an opportunist, trying to insinuate himself into the story in order to capitalize on any finds made. How or when he came into knowledge of details which were not published is open to guess.

I am certain that Dick and Brownie Holmes and Clay Wurst have had information on the location of the LDM which has never been published, even in the Holmes manuscript. Reid's letters include stories of his father having robbed the Dutchman and the placer mine, which raise doubts for me. While Waltz had a drywasher made supposedly to recover fine gold he was missing, yet the alternate version said it was for use in tracing up gold to the source, not for placer mining. Waltz never mentioned being robbed in the hills or at his mine to Julia, Reiney or Dick Holmes. Also it is possile that Reid was telling the truth entirely, but was mistaking another Dutchman prospector for Waltz. German prospectors were not really rare in the Old West.

The old and popular story linking Waltz with the Peraltas, I do not believe should be linked at all. The unpopular Pioneer Interviews version has no Peraltas or massacre etc just a rather plain story. I am convinced this is the truth. Not to say the Peralta story is all fiction, just that it could be wrongly mixed in with the LDM.

Arizona has had over 9000 mines discovered and documented since the US took over, and a couple hundred before that; there are a large number of lost mines and ledges, some may be two versions of the same mine (as with lost Pick and the Black Maverick) but it is all too easy to start mixing the information together.

I think that when the Lost Dutchman's mine is found, it will turn up within a mile of a road, and close to the Wilderness Area boundaries.

NO offense intended of course just a difference of opinion. Please do continue;
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Old]

Marius, you could be right. I've not studied the Latin Heart. Its far too complicated for me.

I'm going by Mr. Worst writings. If I'm remembering correctly, he said La mina del Sombrero was the one some distance away from the other two and had been well worked. I'm assuming he meant cleaned or nearly so. I'd love to ask him to expand on that. Of course, I could be confused. Its possible <g>.

 

[Oroblanco]

PS I forgot, for our readers (whom do not often post or never) but that part about Waltz having a drywasher made to recover "fine gold" he was losing, has a hollow ring to it. Drywashers, especially those of the 1800s, were notoriously POOR at recovering fine gold particles, really they were good at catching the coarser stuff not the fines. Hence this statement should raise a red flag.

Please do continue....

 

[Old]

Roy, no offense taken. Honest! I enjoy the discussion.

I do tend to believe Reed's story. And; it is one that certainly can be debated. That's for sure.

I tend to put myself into the place of the participants and judge them based on what I would do. If I was Waltz I wouldn't come home telling how somebody had got the best of me at my own game. I would have considered myself lucky to have lived through the ordeal and would be wiser for it. Not that I'd give my friends something to rass me about back at the bar about how I had been taken by a drafter and a kid at my own mine, robbed and sent packing. If it was that easily done, and he told it, wouldn't it give the locals something to think about doing themselves. And, maybe worst than just sent packing?

There is something written, I think its in Worst writings but could be elsewhere that Waltz didn't work The Quartz much because he couldn't watch his back while he was in the mine. Something to that effect. If its important, I will look for it.

I wouldn't have told the robbery story. Not if I didn't have a bullet hole to get patched up. But; maybe he would have. You could be right.

 

[Uncle Jeff]

No! .. It is LOST .. geeze ....

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy, no offense taken. Honest! I enjoy the discussion.

I do tend to believe Reed's story. And; it is one that certainly can be debated. That's for sure.

I tend to put myself into the place of the participants and judge them based on what I would do. If I was Waltz I wouldn't come home telling how somebody had got the best of me at my own game. I would have considered myself lucky to have lived through the ordeal and would be wiser for it. Not that I'd give my friends something to rass me about back at the bar about how I had been taken by a drafter and a kid at my own mine, robbed and sent packing. If it was that easily done, and he told it, wouldn't it give the locals something to think about doing themselves. And, maybe worst than just sent packing?

There is something written, I think its in Worst writings but could be elsewhere that Waltz didn't work The Quartz much because he couldn't watch his back while he was in the mine. Something to that effect. If its important, I will look for it.

I wouldn't have told the robbery story. Not if I didn't have a bullet hole to get patched up. But; maybe he would have. You could be right.

Hey YOU could have it right and I could have it all wrong. I have not found the Lost Dutchman's mine. I see your reasoning, and this is pure speculation about another man's logic/reasoning over 100 years ago in a different time, but why would Waltz have never mentioned the robbing, on his deathbed? He should have felt that could be a real danger for Dick Holmes, to know that Reid may come after him at the mine. Also to Julia and Reiney, for this was a lady whom was a baker by trade and a young boy, an armed robber would be a danger to them too right? Yet he said nothing about that, just insisted that the mine was very hard to find and the cache as well. To me that sounds like no one knew where it was except him, and that it was so well hidden that he feared even with directions they might have a lot of difficulty finding it. They proved to have lots of difficulties.

Please do continue, and almost every word I just posted is speculation on my part. I have no doubt there were some bad characters active in Arizona in the time period, even Dick Holmes might fit that class as he (supposedly) attempted to trail Waltz to the mine and claim it for himself. There are people like that around today, so I guess it is not really ancient history either.

 

[azdave35]

Roy, no offense taken. Honest! I enjoy the discussion.

I do tend to believe Reed's story. And; it is one that certainly can be debated. That's for sure.

I tend to put myself into the place of the participants and judge them based on what I would do. If I was Waltz I wouldn't come home telling how somebody had got the best of me at my own game. I would have considered myself lucky to have lived through the ordeal and would be wiser for it. Not that I'd give my friends something to rass me about back at the bar about how I had been taken by a drafter and a kid at my own mine, robbed and sent packing. If it was that easily done, and he told it, wouldn't it give the locals something to think about doing themselves. And, maybe worst than just sent packing?

There is something written, I think its in Worst writings but could be elsewhere that Waltz didn't work The Quartz much because he couldn't watch his back while he was in the mine. Something to that effect. If its important, I will look for it.

I wouldn't have told the robbery story. Not if I didn't have a bullet hole to get patched up. But; maybe he would have. You could be right.

i would imagine the reason clay didnt pursue reids info any more than he did is because every year for the past 125 years more than one person shows up around here and has the whole mystery figured out...either they read something and know exactly where the mine is or their ancestor knew the dutchman and they have a map that was handed down...i've met quite a few of them and once they go into the mountains they realize any info they have is useless and their prized map is worthless....if any of the info or so called "clues" were any good the first people on the scene would have found that mine..julia..petrash's..holmes...and so on...clay is a friend of mine and he is a very smart individual...believe me..if clay thought reid was telling the truth he would have followed him anywhere ...i figured out long ago if the dutchman really wanted julia to find his mine he would have given directions and a GOOD map..not a bunch of silly clues...anyone that would give clues to a mine is just playing games...if you really want someone to find your mine..just tell them where it is and how to get there....its that simple

 

[cactusjumper]

Lynda,

"Clay Worst……..a noted historian and Dutch hunter……searched the archives of Mexico and interviewed several Peralta and Gonzales decedents. His base information tells us. There were multiple Peralta trips to the Superstitions. His contacts and research reveal the family had and worked 8 mines. The last venture made, a clandestine trip, concentrated on 3 of those mines. Those 3 being the most prosperous. (Do the numbers look familiar, they should!) Those mines were the La Mina del Sombrero, El Placer and La Mina del Oro. The Placer and La Mina del Oro being close in proximity and the La Mina del Sombrero being somewhat removed from them. The scope and dimensions of the mines are given and fit nicely with the no bigger than a barrel descriptions we have seen many times since. Mr. Worst is still with us, I believe, and can substantiate his findings. For those that doubt, you have but to ask him."


When Mr. Wurst speaks, like many I listen. On the other hand, when it comes to divulging important information, I have been told by more than one reliable source, he will not speak. Some of his "partners" have found that out, to their deep disgust.


Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


Well you don't know what you are missing! I would point out that it is not the coffee that will get you to prefer to work with sheep than cattle however, it is working with the wild range cattle found on ranches in the northern plains and hills. They have four legs like the Holsteins and eat hay but the resemblances are merely visual, some of them are actually called (not joking) man-eaters! They are not exactly like handling dairy cows in the east. Besides what is so bad about the woolies? Don't you like lamb chops, especially BBQ chops? Heck amigo you could put up a fence around your lawn, toss a couple of sheep in there and never have to mow it again! Are you against labor-saving? <heh heh>

Side thing here (to all) I am yanking Joe's chain here, he is NO cheechako and as Don Jose would say, has left his boot prints from the gold fields of Alaska to the Mexican border and probably beyond as well. Vietnamese native coffee has been reported to peel paint, cure sick water buffalo, and cause hair to grow on the palms of hands and other areas. This is why I can hardly believe he would be finicky about his coffee!

I recall seeing something that directly links the Ludy men to Arizona not so long ago (a few years? In fact it may have been you that sent it to me Joe, although I have found some documentation myself) and units from various areas did get sent into Arizona during the Civil War especially from California but also from New Mexico (directions, from west and east both).

I am fairly convinced that if there is a truth behind the lost Peralta mine story, these are the men involved. I suspect (strongly) that the story got blended in with Waltz perhaps even before his death, perhaps by the Ludy men being referred to as "Dutchmen" and the name Jacob, with Waltz's first name being Jacob. In other words a leap of conclusion made that was done erroneously, thinking JACOB Waltz must be the JACOBS or JACOB Ludy from the Peralta story. They were two soldiers, and were in AZ in the time period. I wonder if that "soldier grave" and soldiers buttons found in La Barge may not have been theirs?

Actually this is more evidence that earlier treasure hunters have been mixing together different stories with the Waltz story, from a very early time. We might wonder exactly when this occurred for in the earliest published account of the LDM, by Bicknell, there is NO mention of this romantic tale. Bicknell's first article,
"Where is the Silver,"Arizona Daily Gazette Nov. 5, 1894, was on a lost SILVER mine - this then morphs into a Peralta GOLD mine later.

I think we can lay the blame for some of this mixing/confabulation at the feet of our newspapermen. Bicknell was a newsman, Sims Ely was a newsman, Terry was a newsman, heck I suspect that Thomas Penfield might have been a newsman, at least he certainly pored through numerous newspaper articles and accounts. Not to cast too much aspersion on newsmen, for without them we probably would have very little to go on concerning the LDM and many other lost treasures, but they did not fully understand the topic they were writing about. Some did not know a lode from a placer. Others we rely on for information had occupations and experience equally unrelated to mining and prospecting, John D. Mitchell worked for the railroad, Jim Bark was a rancher, Adolph Ruth was a veterinarian. I don't want to denigrate any of these occupations, but they do not teach you about prospecting or mining.

Old - great post! Thank you for taking the time to explain, although I respectfully disagree on some points your post is well written.

Don Jose', el Tropical Tramp - Aiiiiee Chihuahua!

Oroblanco

Roy,

I did send you the information on Jacob Ludi. Believe I may have been the first to find that possible connection.

Bicknell also camped at Willow Spring, same as Ruth. History bites!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Old]

Joe,

Hope this note finds you well.

I hear you! I listen too. The man is about as close as we can get to "the story" these days. Most of what I have gathered comes via the Eleanor Clark collection of his own letters. I doubt Mr. Worst would have wanted even that much in the public domain. I could be wrong.

Dave, what a friend to have, a cherished one, I'm sure. Wish him well for me.

 

[azdave35]

Joe,

Hope this note finds you well.

I hear you! I listen too. The man is about as close as we can get to "the story" these days. Most of what I have gathered comes via the Eleanor Clark collection of his own letters. I doubt Mr. Worst would have wanted even that much in the public domain. I could be wrong.

Dave, what a friend to have, a cherished one, I'm sure. Wish him well for me.

clay is a heck of a nice guy ...matter of fact if you want to know what really happened when clay and reid were together why dont you ask him...he is a great guy and he just might tell you..if you are ever out this way stop in and chat with him..but if i were you i'd stop believing anything you read on the internet.....most of the people writing it know less than you do

 

[Old]

Oro, I have a hard time putting much reliance on any of the Holmes story. That just could be me and it "could" have validity. Its just a long stretch for me.

I personally don't think Waltz said anything on his death bed. Much less the long winded confession story. That's far too Hollywood for me.

For Julia to have been awakened in the wee hours of the morning and having hurried from the house to fetch the doctor, Jacob had taken an abrupt turn for the worse. Most likely exhibiting death rattles. He would have been in no shape to tell anyone anything. If he was awake talking in the fashion Holmes would have us believe, Julia would have waited for morning light to fetch a doctor.

Now, I know that upsets the apple cart for things that come down the line based from that start of the story but that's my take on it.