Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Oroblanco]

PS I forgot to mention that the gold (or silver) itself may show visual differences in an ore comparison - one sample may have gold that is brassy yellow, while another may have a rusty, reddish tinge. This is not necessarily proof of different sources as it is well known that gold from different areas often has a similar color, hence a lot of gold in the Yukon has a rusty aspect, while Alaska gold is brassy yellow, and Georgia gold has a rich gold tone due to being very pure. The metals in alloy with the gold affect the color of it, so if more silver is present, often this lightens the color; gold that is fifty percent silver (as in the Oro Blanco district) is white and silvery not yellow at all. More copper in the natural alloy can give the gold a greenish tinge as another example.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Copper in gold gives it an orangish or rose color . The Chihuahua, Sonora gold was famous for this.

Hence the Famous El Naranjal ,rose colored gold, suggests Chihuahua instead of Durango..

Oro

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose el Tropical Tramp wrote

Copper in gold gives it an orangish or rose color . The Chihuahua, Sonora gold was famous for this.

Hence the Famous El Naranjal ,rose colored gold, suggests Chihuahua instead of Durango..

See amigos I told you there were others here with more experience that I have! Silver is normally what can cause a greenish tinge to gold, but copper, especially if concentrated at the surface of the gold can also cause a greenish tinge. Don Jose is correct about the rose/orange tint due to copper though.

As to the El Naranjal - where does it say the gold had a rose color? The only sources I have state it was a very orange color, hence the similarity to oranges and play on names. Could this color not be a clue that it is really located in Sinaloa, where the royal road sign was found? That is getting way off topic and has little to do with the LDM.

The color of the gold in the ore we can see in the matchbox, is also a clue to its location for it does not look to have much silver in the gold, or much copper for that matter. As a matter of opinion(s) and this question is to everyone following this thread, how would you describe the gold visible in the matchbox? (EG brassy, orange, rose, whitish, etc) Thank you in advance, to everyone.


Side thing here but I do make mistakes, usually I write a post from what I have in my head and not from digging out the books, or even to search online for a factoid. I don't want to pretend to know everything, and neither does anyone else - we can all learn more.

Now to get on topic fully, one of the more controversial pieces of evidence, which is today among the missing, has been the shipping receipts from Wells Fargo Express, supposedly belonging to Waltz. The amount of dollar value for these receipts amounted to $250,000, which was a considerable amount of money for the 1800s. Based on the Holmes assay done on the candle box ore, which may have been much richer than most of the ore in the mine or could have even been poorer (we can't know until someone finds the mine for certain) and considering that Goldman's would have insisted the sample getting assayed must be an AVERAGE type, not an especially rich piece(s) for they would not wish to pay more than the gold value in the rock, we can extrapolate that $250,000 worth of ore, would make a total of ore shipped around two and a half tons.

This story of the Wells Fargo shipping receipts is found in Thomas Terry's state Treasure Atlas, (Arizona) though I do not have the page number handy. We also have a private letter from John Higham to Bernice McGee in which he alludes to those receipts as the big reason why the Petrasch boys changed their minds to continue the search, after they had failed to find it in their first efforts and concluded that Waltz had played them for fools. As he put it, it is hard to deny facts when they stare you in the face. Wells Fargo has NO records of ANY of their freight shipping business in Arizona due to a fire that destroyed the records so we cannot check there, and we can only assume that the Petrasch boys possessed those receipts so whomever got their estate(s) likely ended up with them. They may even have been lost or destroyed by now, so we can never know. It is interesting to do the math however and that small amount of ore, just two and a half tons or so, would require less of a hole dug out of the rock than the small (Pioneer Interviews) description of it having only a shaft around a dozen feet deep, and not bigger than a barrel at the entrance. You can read Higham's letter yourself at:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.../mcgee/higham/Higham-McGee Correspondence.pdf

Then there is the bank draft on the First National Bank of Lawrence Kansas, for some $7000 worth of gold ore, in the name of Jacob Waltz. This piece of evidence turned up in recent years and I do not know where it originated. However while most have taken this as Waltz sending money to his sister in Kansas, the actual document only is a receipt to Waltz himself. It is found in Helen Corbin's second book on the LDM, the Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz, pp 121. The draft is from the US Treasury to Jacob Waltz for$7000 in return for 50 pounds of gold ore. Is it bogus? I do not know. There are more than one Jacob Waltz in the USA in the 19th century, including this one whom was living in Kansas in that time period:

Jacob Waltz
Birth about 1862 - Wurttemberg/Wuttemberg (Germany)
Residence 1870 - Wolf River, Doniphan, Kansas, United States
Residence - Troy, Doniphan, Kansas
<Source Ancestry dot com>

What this looks like to ME is possibly an honest mistake or a deliberate hoax by someone researching the LDM. It could be the Kansas Waltz had a bank draft for $7k, and had nothing to do with the famous Waltz of Arizona, although we have to wonder about the gold ore, remember there were gold mines in Colorado, and it was not that uncommon for payments to be made in gold and gold ore. The Kansas Waltz (probably unrelated to LDM) could easily have come into possession of that much gold ore, (50 pounds) from the sale of some livestock, land etc to someone whom had "struck it" in Colorado.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Eldo]

There is also the chance that the famous Jacob Waltz was really Jacob Walz, the immigrant from NY/PA/VA from an earlier time.

and he was going to the Superstition Valley under cover for the Confederates, as their agent to mine the gold and act as a recon scout for them

the information I have shows that there was only one older man named Waltz in the AZ area who used to keep gold under his bed.

the information also shows he was involved in delivering a coded confederate message to a certain VA resident with information in regards to the dead men in Massacre Point, being involved in the Beale Codes as an "Agent"

He died when the flood came through and he contracted a bad bronchitis or some flu and being older he succomed to it leaving pieced trails and information in german to 'help' the old lady that gave him shelter

She wandered forever and was led astray like all the others were, as he was truly going to the end with his secrets as he was ordered to in the first place, as he was going to be implicated in the murder of the 30 if he was any more obvious.

everyone who knew about Waltz's vault were killed as well, so its highly likely the ones who were close to him were led to their deaths there by Waltz after getting too close

 

[Oroblanco]

There is also the chance that the famous Jacob Waltz was really Jacob Walz, the immigrant from NY/PA/VA from an earlier time.

and he was going to the Superstition Valley under cover for the Confederates, as their agent to mine the gold and act as a recon scout for them

the information I have shows that there was only one older man named Waltz in the AZ area who used to keep gold under his bed.

the information also shows he was involved in delivering a coded confederate message to a certain VA resident with information in regards to the dead men in Massacre Point, being involved in the Beale Codes as an "Agent"

I think we can safely rule out that Jacob WALZ as we know that the real one with the lost mine signed his own name WALTZ. Also, we have documented evidence that Waltz was in California due to his citizenship papers which date July 19th, 1861. Remember the Civil War only broke out in April of that year, and Waltz had been working at others gold mines in Grass Valley (CA) even before this. You can see a facsimile of his naturalization papers on page 42 of Helen Corbin's book The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold. One other thing but Jacob Waltz would have been pretty old to be a soldier even in 1861, for he was born about 1808 so would have been in his fifties. And yes although the Southern States did call up older men as the war progressed, they were not calling up men in their 50s in the first part of the war. Also I have not seen anything to indicate that Waltz was anything but a Union man despite the stories.

Stories have been getting mixed together in the Lost Dutchman legend, really almost from the beginning. Earlier treasure hunters have made assumptions that a story of a lost mine must be one and the same with Jacob Waltz, and proceeded to mix together the information. The Ludi/Ludy relatives (they may have been brothers, or father and son, or uncle and nephew) really were in the Army during the Civil War, and unfortunately for the legends, served the Union. I would suggest comparing their story, which includes serving a rich Mexican don Peralta as hired mercenaries to protect him and his workers while they mined, as these aspects are very probably not really linked with Jacob Waltz at all.

Oroblanco



PS just a side thing here but the supposed application for citizenship document, found in at least two books I know of, taken in Mississippi in 1848 for Jacob Waltz, I am now convinced have nothing to do with the Jacob Waltz of Arizona. My reason? The document specifically states that the applicant (Jacob Waltz) is renouncing all fealty to the king of Wurttemburg - and the Kansas Jacob Waltz was from Wurttemburg. So while we have the Arizona Jacob Waltz's citizenship document, we do not have his application for citizenship and no evidence that he was ever in Mississippi, as that application was almost certainly the Kansan Jacob Waltz and not our famous one. See what I mean about things getting MIXED that do not belong together?

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

One thing for clarification. Wells Fargo did not have any receipts for that era, because they did not ship any gold ore out of Arizona, not because they were lost in the San Francisco earthquake/fire.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

One thing for clarification. Wells Fargo did not have any receipts for that era, because they did not ship any gold ore out of Arizona, not because they were lost in the San Francisco earthquake/fire.

Take care,

Joe

I have posted newspaper clippings from Arizona dating to at least the 1860s listing that Wells Fargo is accepting shipments at various places. They have no receipts for that era today. Here is ONE such example, and note what it has to say about Wells Fargo. The company historian today apparently has not researched the newspapers of the era.

The Arizona sentinel. (Yuma, Ariz.) 1872-1911, January 11, 1879, Image 4 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

The relevant article begins in column 2.


Do you still want to insist that NO gold ore was shipped from Arizona by Wells Fargo prior to the date of Waltz's death?

I hope all is well with you, and for some reason that last sentence sounds rather challenging or aggressive when it is not intended to, what I am trying to ask is does the newspaper articles evidence not mean anything? Thanks in advance.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

PS here is a photo of the Wells Fargo office in Phoenix circa 1879

http://187hrynv8uv1zp0cw32838b1aoz.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/guidedbyhistory/images/phx-lorings.jpg

<borrowed under Fair Use provisions, not for profit>

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is another report from Wells Fargo, for 1889:

Notice there is a separate column for ORES including even base metals (lead, zinc) that wereshipped via Wells Fargo from Arizona.

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is a photo of a guard named Madison Larkin standing next to a stack of bullion in the Phoenix Wells Fargo Express office in 1877, from Wells Fargo's archives:

<borrowed under Fair Use, not for profit, from Who Was Madison Larkin? | Guided By HistoryGuided By History >

 

[Terry Soloman]

You want to find the source of the "Lost Dutchman's" gold? Look in the Bradshaw and Weaver Mountains.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Yes, I will have to stick with what Dr. Robert J. Chandler, senior research historian for Wells Fargo Bank told me personally a few years ago. Wells Fargo did not ship ORE until the railroad could take it. They did not ship out of Arizona but used other coach lines for freight. They only shipped bullion, not ore. There was never a U.S.mint in Sacramento, which is where Terry said Waltz's shipment of ORE was sent.

$250,000. worth of ore was one hell of a lot of rocks. That alone was the first thing that made me suspicious. Many top LDM Researchers tried to find some truth in that story. They all came up with NADA. I think I may have been the first one to speak, personally, to the top Wells Fargo Historian in San Francisco.

You have defended your position very well, but I remain skeptical. What was the year of that receipt? I never said that there was never any gold shipped from Arizona, by wells Fargo, prior to Waltz's death. Larkin was guarding silver bullion from the Tip Top Mine in that picture.

I think we can agree to disagree about that huge shipment of ore by Waltz.

Take care and get back to work.

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Yes, I will have to stick with what Dr. Robert J. Chandler, senior research historian for Wells Fargo Bank told me personally a few years ago. Wells Fargo did not ship ORE until the railroad could take it. They did not ship out of Arizona but used other coach lines for freight. They only shipped bullion, not ore. There was never a U.S.mint in Sacramento, which is where Terry said Waltz's shipment of ORE was sent.

$250,000. worth of ore was one hell of a lot of rocks. That alone was the first thing that made me suspicious. Many top LDM Researchers tried to find some truth in that story. They all came up with NADA. I think I may have been the first one to speak, personally, to the top Wells Fargo Historian in San Francisco.

You have defended your position very well, but I remain skeptical. What was the year of that receipt? I never said that there was never any gold shipped from Arizona, by wells Fargo, prior to Waltz's death. Larkin was guarding silver bullion from the Tip Top Mine in that picture.

I think we can agree to disagree about that huge shipment of ore by Waltz.

Take care and get back to work.

Taking the last first, (you slave driver you! ) I can certainly agree to disagree about the "huge shipment" of ore. More on this in a moment, but the next item is one you appear to be mistaken about for here is your earlier post:

Roy,

One thing for clarification. Wells Fargo did not have any receipts for that era, because they did not ship any gold ore out of Arizona, not because they were lost in the San Francisco earthquake/fire.

Take care,

Joe

I read that as your stating that Wells Fargo did not ship ANY gold ore out of Arizona, when there are published records from Wells Fargo in the old newspapers that list several million dollars worth of ORE shipped from Arizona, and prior to Waltz's death.

Higham's letter and I believe Terry's book both say they are RECEIPTS plural, not ONE single shipment. The ore assayed at $110,000 per ton, so works out to something like two and a half tons. That is NOT a hell of a lot of rock, and very easily could have been sent in several shipments rather than ONE large one. I am not sure exactly but it works out to something like two cubic yards of ore or a bit less; somewhere between 18 and 28 wheelbarrow loads, or around forty burro loads or twenty mule or horse loads. Over the span of years, in several shipments (as in maybe fifty pounds at a time) this is not too remarkable IMHO.

I did not state that Waltz shipped his ore to Sacramento, and neither does Higham; in fact it does not say WHERE the ore was shipped to. Terry has other errors in his book too - does that make the whole to be worthless? There were smelters operating in Sacramento for that matter whom a gold miner could ship ore to in that time period. Didn't we go over this just a few years ago?

I realize that I am not among the "top LDM Researchers " and don't care, but even the experts can be wrong. I can prove that too. This includes Dr Chandler. I communicated with him too, if you recall, and he is the one that informed me that Wells Fargo simply has NO records, due to loss in a fire. That they have NO records does not prove what they did or did not ship. The old Arizona newspapers are actually a more reliable source on Wells Fargo in Arizona during this time period than Wells Fargo itself is today due to the loss of those records.

Wells Fargo acted through agents in Arizona and elsewhere, but the receipts would still be Wells Fargo and they would get a cut from the freight business. Wells Fargo would be the party responsible in case of loss, and Wells Fargo certainly was taking credit for handling shipments of gold from the territory as is even in the Congressional Record. The point is that the Wells Fargo Express shipping receipts story is absolutely possible. You may continue to believe what ever and whomever you prefer, as I have seen through repeated experience, if some expert you recognize tells you something, like father Polzer or Dr Glover or Dr Chandler, that holds far more weight with you than anything that I might provide that is counter to it.


Now to continue on topic, we can establish that there were several different Jacob Waltz (s) in the US during the time period when "our" Waltz was alive, including the one in Kansas whom was from Wurttemburg. Wurttemburg at that time had its own king and was a separate country, and Waltz (ours) listed Prussia as his native land on one document which is different enough to raise questions.

Another point, concerning the story of Waltz having been a Confederate soldier, but he was also reported as being a staunch Republican voter. Two things can be extrapolated from this point, first, you can not vote without being a citizen so this re-affirms that he must have won citizenship, and second, no self respecting Reb would EVER consider voting Republican after the Civil War. Not saying it would be impossible for an ex-Confederate to later vote Republican, but it would be pretty uncommon. This points to Waltz being a Union man even in his politics.

Waltz also filed a homestead claim in Phoenix, and you could not make such a claim unless you were a citizen, so this too supports that he had US citizenship by 1868.

More to follow,
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

could be 10 million or even a 100 million years ...

Real de Tayopa you are correct, as usual. Some ores have minerals and chemical compositions which make them refractory to smelting heat and thus difficult to extract the metals, requiring special additives (and in some cases extra treatment steps) to successfully extract most of the metal values.

stop saying complicated

and if you mention extortion one more time I'll have your legs broken!

For all - I had the impression that one member here was just baiting and challenging everything I say to have an argument, but perhaps some of you really don't know what an ore comparison is and would like to know what exactly is done. A geologist or assayer examines the specimens with at least a 10x power jewelers loupe or high powered microscope, and identifies the different minerals that make up the HOST ROCK, as well as a visual comparison of any visible precious metals. These minerals are noted, and how much of each; <quantitative analysis> and the mineral grains are measured for size. The size of the mineral grains is one method by which the different types of ore veins are classed, so this too is important information. The exact sizes chosen to delineate the classes are arbitrary, and one expert may have the older values while another may go by a newer standard but the variation is not that much.

Consider if you will a sample from some particular vein in one fissure in a fissure system of one particular mine. It took millions, even tens of millions of years (or likely more) for the the quartz and metals to precipitate out from the dilute recirculating hydrothermal solutions (either hypo or epi) to form into what is eventually mined and now in the hands of the guy with the gem saw. If the entire vein is 20 inches wide, 10 inches per 'side' of formation from the center assuming approximate symmetry over the eons ..., and ONLY a 10 million year event to form the vein, each inch represents a million years. Take one section, and compare it to another only half inch away and you are looking at geochemical conditions 500,000 years apart. Very difficult to rule in or rule out anything on that basis, chemical, visual, or as you misstate 'quantitatively'.

Not trying to bust yer chops or anything, but we gotta respect science, fact, truth, math and logic - etcetera.

Fairly often some relatively rare mineral will be found in the host rock, which can then be a key identifier, for example if the ore specimen has some gold telluride, this is fairly rare, and if both specimens do not have this mineral then that is a point of difference. Other keys are such factors as signs of heat alteration differences, oxidation and so forth. Anyone who doubts what I just wrote, please do talk to a geologist or an experienced assayer. No two gold mine ores <from different mines obviously> have the identical mineral composition and grain size. Also, sometimes the geologist likes to cut <saw> a surface of the specimen flat and polish it to enhance the use of magnification (microscope) but this is not always done.

I am not a geologist just a prospector so have probably left out some of what is done in the comparison. Heck I have been doing this for thirty years and am STILL learning geology.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

stop saying complicated

and if you mention extortion one more time I'll have your legs broken!

Consider if you will a sample from some particular vein in one fissure in a fissure system of one particular mine. It took millions, even tens of millions of years (or likely more) for the the quartz and metals to precipitate out from the dilute recirculating hydrothermal solutions (either hypo or epi) to form into what is eventually mined and now in the hands of the guy with the gem saw. If the entire vein is 20 inches wide, 10 inches per 'side' of formation from the center assuming approximate symmetry over the eons ..., and ONLY a 10 million year event to form the vein, each inch represents a million years. Take one section, and compare it to another only half inch away and you are looking at geochemical conditions 500,000 years apart. Very difficult to rule in or rule out anything on that basis, chemical, visual, or as you misstate 'quantitatively'.

Not trying to bust yer chops or anything, but we gotta respect science, fact, truth, math and logic - etcetera.

To quote George Takei - oh my. You must be Jesuit trained. As with every reply you make to anything I post, you are challenging it, and yet you refuse to go to a geologist to find out. Believe what you like, and good luck fishing, hope you catch a whopper.

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr, how much experience do you have treasure hunting? Or prospecting?

 

[Oroblanco]

To Joe - you stated that Wells Fargo shipped NO ore until the railroads reached Arizona. The first railroad to reach Arizona entered in May of 1877 at Yuma. Some of the newspaper ads for accepting Wells Fargo Express shipments are from Yuma and that very time period.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

To quote George Takei - oh my. You must be Jesuit trained. As with every reply you make to anything I post, you are challenging it, and yet you refuse to go to a geologist to find out. Believe what you like, and good luck fishing, hope you catch a whopper.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr, how much experience do you have treasure hunting? Or prospecting?

Hope this doesn't come as any surprise to you, but in the 'real' world - treasure hunting and prospecting are not recognized professions in educational institutions.

I admit to my years with the SOJ. GAWD forbid.

I also admit to multiple college degrees and various sate professional registrations in various disciplines.

Happy now?

I also hereby admit I need none of that to be correct it fact, truth and logic.

Got science?

 

[Oroblanco]

One more tidbit for Cactusjumper Joe:


This is reporting ores shipped from Arizona to be processed in SACRAMENTO.
From The Arizona sentinel., August 02, 1879 page one, Yuma Arizona

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

Hope this doesn't come as any surprise to you, but in the 'real' world - treasure hunting and prospecting are not recognized professions in educational institutions.

I admit to my years with the SOJ. GAWD forbid.

I also admit to multiple college degrees and various sate professional registrations in various disciplines.

Happy now?

I also hereby admit I need none of that to be correct it fact, truth and logic.

Got science?

Conceptualized: Thank you for your curriculum vitae but I noticed that you did not actually answer either question, which are relevant to the topic and forum. And yes I am always a happy guy, unlike some folks here. Since you seem to think that treasure hunting and prospecting are not "Real world" one might wonder what your purpose here is? To chat with people you think are living in fantasy? I fear you would be in for a shock if you were to contact the IRS about whether treasure hunting and prospecting are "recognized professions" and if you think they are not, why are you here? To have an argument? Do you think you are going to educate everyone or save us from foolish waste of our time? Just curious, and to be honest I am seriously considering putting you back on ignore so you may answer or not as you choose.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Going off half cocked is not evidence.

Famous quote which seems relevant: "drawing vast conclusions from half-vast data"

Half at it

"When speculation and fallacious logic are mistaken for infallible truths or facts we call that lunacy and get those peeps psychiatric help. '