Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

Hello Hal,

James Kearney of ASU at Tempe wrote the excellent article on the Fate of Adolph Ruth that appeared in the Journal of Arizona History in the summer of 1992. Kearney concluded Ruth probably died from heat, lack of water and advanced age. That opinion is held by many. Kearney did a great deal of research into Ruth's past life, his disappearance and his demise. But his research was limited to whatever was published in the newspapers, magazines and public records. Many others gathered that exact same material and came up with a variety of theories on what may have happened to Ruth.

The one thing Kearney, and almost no one else did was take the time and effort to read the files that the Maricopa and Pinal county Sheriff's investigators compiled concerning Ruth's disappearance and death. Those files tell a much different story than what appeared in the press during the time period June 1931 - May 1932.

On the issue of the maps that Adolph Ruth allegedly had with him when he went into the mountains. It was Deputy Adams of Maricopa County who made the statement that no maps were taken from Ruth because the (maps) were found with Ruth's remains. This appeared in the newspapers and is taken for granted as a true and factual statement.

But in the Sheriff's file on Ruth's disappearance, a Pinal County deputy questions Adams statement. "How do we know there were no maps taken from Mr. Ruth when we don't know how many maps Ruth's had with him ?"

An excellent question. Indeed, when Ruth's own son was asked how many maps his father had with him, he could not give an exact answer or description of all the maps he thought his father might have.

In the end Sheriff's deputies concluded Ruth could have taken any number of maps into the mountains with him and someone could have possibly taken one or more maps and left behind what Adams found with Ruth's remains. It is not proof either way, it merely pointed out that Adams assumption may or may not have been true. Just because Adams had found a map or maps with Ruth's remains was not proof one or more maps, or papers, or notes, or sketches may have been taken.

Matthew
 

Hello Hal,

James Kearney of ASU at Tempe wrote the excellent article on the Fate of Adolph Ruth that appeared in the Journal of Arizona History in the summer of 1992. Kearney concluded Ruth probably died from heat, lack of water and advanced age. That opinion is held by many. Kearney did a great deal of research into Ruth's past life, his disappearance and his demise. But his research was limited to whatever was published in the newspapers, magazines and public records. Many others gathered that exact same material and came up with a variety of theories on what may have happened to Ruth.

The one thing Kearney, and almost no one else did was take the time and effort to read the files that the Maricopa and Pinal county Sheriff's investigators compiled concerning Ruth's disappearance and death. Those files tell a much different story than what appeared in the press during the time period June 1931 - May 1932.

On the issue of the maps that Adolph Ruth allegedly had with him when he went into the mountains. It was Deputy Adams of Maricopa County who made the statement that no maps were taken from Ruth because the (maps) were found with Ruth's remains. This appeared in the newspapers and is taken for granted as a true and factual statement.

But in the Sheriff's file on Ruth's disappearance, a Pinal County deputy questions Adams statement. "How do we know there were no maps taken from Mr. Ruth when we don't know how many maps Ruth's had with him ?"

An excellent question. Indeed, when Ruth's own son was asked how many maps his father had with him, he could not give an exact answer or description of all the maps he thought his father might have.

In the end Sheriff's deputies concluded Ruth could have taken any number of maps into the mountains with him and someone could have possibly taken one or more maps and left behind what Adams found with Ruth's remains. It is not proof either way, it merely pointed out that Adams assumption may or may not have been true. Just because Adams had found a map or maps with Ruth's remains was not proof one or more maps, or papers, or notes, or sketches may have been taken.

Matthew

Matthew,

Do you know what Adams told Jim Bark?

Good luck,

Joe
 

cactusjumper asked,

Matthew,

Do you know what Adams told Jim Bark?

I'm not exactly sure what Jeff Adams told Jim Bark but this is what Adams told Sen. Carl Hayden:

[B]"We found intact all of his (Adolph Ruth’s) papers including the map or directions to be taken to find the Lost Dutchman Mine which Mr. Ruth was supposed to be trying to locate. After finding and assembling those bones we followed the directions given to reach the alleged Lost Dutchman’s Mine. This trip took us two days of very hard labor and following their directions we came to the place pointed out in the instructions and found no evidence of any human being ever having been there at any time in the past."

Jeff Adams went back and forth saying one time he, Tex Barkley and 3 others went looking for the Lost Dutchman Mine using papers found on Ruth's remains, and then later saying they didn't. I don't know if he ever told Jim Bark anything directly about what was found with Ruth's remains. In the Maricopa County Sheriff's file Adams stated nothing had been taken from Ruth (meaning stolen) because he found the map(s) and papers still with Ruth. But Adams could not factually make that statement because he didn't know what Ruth took with him into the mountains to begin with. Therefore he couldn't have known if everything was with Ruth or if anything was missing.

Matthew
 

"Some who belive that Ruth had been murdered for the Gonzales-Peralta map suspected that his packers, Leroy Purnell and Jack Keenan, had done the deed. The pair assisted in the hunt for the missing man, but suspicion of them, plus Barkley's anger soon drove the two men out of the picture. Purnell drifted to the Utah-Idaho region (he came from a well known Mormon family), Keenan back to his native Oklahoma. Thirty-five years later, Keenan's widow confirmed the long-held suspicion for Glen Magill, a private investigator and treasure hunter who had just announced (erroneously) that he had found the Lost Dutchman. After asking Magill for rocks from the mine to place on her husband's grave, she said, "You know, my husband and his partner never were able to find the mine, even with Mr. Ruth's maps" Magill-and others- took the statement to mean that the packer had killed Ruth."

Foot note 40: "Both Purnell and Keenan died in the 1960s. ..."

A DEATH IN THE SUPERSTITIONS
The fate of Adolph Ruth
James R. Kearny
The Journal of Arizona History

Wouldn't it be something to find one of Ruth's maps today in the Pernell or Keenan family scrap book?

Matthew Roberts,
Great post! Thank you for that. I will say that the article is a MUST read for any serious DLM hunter.
 

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:coffee2:NO THERE IS NOT ANY PROOF. THANK YOU:dontknow:.:cat: NP
 

Evidence no, circumstantial evidence? If the stories about pre-American mining in the Superstitions are correct, it seems that we have many examples. One of the things that I find strange is that there never seems to be a follow up to these reports. Meaning, what became of the physical evidence of Spanish/Mexican mining in this story?
 

Whitebread Waltz? That's a new one for me. Learn something new everyday.

I would suspect that is a misprint for whitebeard; aka snowbeard etc. A nickname supposedly tagged on Waltz that was making the rounds forty-fifty years ago.

Not Peralta wrote
NO THERE IS NOT ANY PROOF. THANK YOU

You have posted that statement before, which really is your opinion. The matchbox is our most visible link to Jacob Waltz having a gold mine. He came up with a sizable amount of gold ore that he sold to pay Julia Thomas's debts, and had a candle box with over forty pounds of rich ore remaining at his death. He was seen by a number of people selling rich ore in several places, had been a successful prospector and worked for a gold miner in CA. You are certainly free to hold your opinion that this is "no evidence" but I have to say it is a fairly strong circumstantial evidence case. The fact that the area where his mine is supposed to be located, is proven to have gold, is another strong piece of circumstantial evidence. In fact this is far more evidence than we have for many other lost mines, including several which have been found.

corbingold.gif
<close up of a sample of Waltz's ore, from cover of Helen Corbin's book Curse of the Dutchman's Gold, borrowed from http://www.americandownunder.com/phantom/qgf/images/corbingold.gif under Fair Use provisions>

More coffee, or tea?
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee:
 

Oroblanco, Since the gold in the match box can"t be proven one way or the other as being from Waltz"s stash, it is in your possession, get a Cirtificate Of Authenticity,fill it in as being from Waltz"s stash,have it Noterized,then put it up for sale on Ebay for lets say $10,000.dollars. Next you need to take the production company that used your Matchbox to small claims court ,for not getting permission from you to use the image first. Let anyone that wants to dispute the Gold origin do so with a smile on your face.HA<HA<HA.Its yours ,they can"t prove its not Waltz"s ore. Then go to the bank with your profits.Oh, don"t foreget to tip me.Ya,Right !
 

Oroblanco, Since the gold in the match box can"t be proven one way or the other as being from Waltz"s stash, it is in your possession, get a Cirtificate Of Authenticity,fill it in as being from Waltz"s stash,have it Noterized,then put it up for sale on Ebay for lets say $10,000.dollars. Next you need to take the production company that used your Matchbox to small claims court ,for not getting permission from you to use the image first. Let anyone that wants to dispute the Gold origin do so with a smile on your face.HA<HA<HA.Its yours ,they can"t prove its not Waltz"s ore. Then go to the bank with your profits.Oh, don"t foreget to tip me.Ya,Right !

I do not have that matchbox, and it is legal to use other people's images without permission, so long as it is for purposes of discussion or education, and not for profit. <See the Fair Use provisions of the copyright act>

On the other hand, while we can not prove the matchbox came from Waltz, we do have the word of Holmes saying it did, and his actions indicate he was being truthful or he would certainly have not spent his lifetime hunting the mine, nor sent his son to continue afterwards. Also, if a gold mine is found that has ore which matches that famous matchbox, it is a scientific proof that the LDM is found.

Oroblanco

Coffee?
:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

To get back on track, as Matthew wrote, deputy Jeff Adams helped to muddy the waters. The Bark Notes has that curious statement attributed to Adams,

"We found intact all of his (Adolph Ruth’s) papers including the map or directions to be taken to find the Lost Dutchman Mine which Mr. Ruth was supposed to be trying to locate."

So was it a MAP or was it DIRECTIONS? Erwin Ruth stated that his father had both a map and a set of directions that went with it, that his father probably had destroyed the written directions, and that the map without the written directions was useless. Purnell seemed to think that map would lead him to the mine but it did not. What were the directions? According to the Bark notes, quote

Adams refers to "the map or directions" found with the body. The directions were almost certainly a hand written excerpt, by Adolph Ruth, from the P.C. Bicknell article.


Here is a photo of the actual note found on Ruth:

Note found on Ruth.jpg

Is it just a set of extracts from the Bicknell article? Some of it appears to be.


Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2:

PS for those inclined to think Ruth died a natural death, this passage from the Bark notes may alter that view:

"When the searchers found the remains, tucked away in the slot of Ruth's check book, was a closely folded piece of paper, a leaf from his small notebook. There were several quite large blood stains on it,a nd blotted out several of the words written thereon. "

How would there be blood stains on a folded paper inside his check book?
 

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To get back on track, as Matthew wrote, deputy Jeff Adams helped to muddy the waters. The Bark Notes has that curious statement attributed to Adams,

"We found intact all of his (Adolph Ruth’s) papers including the map or directions to be taken to find the Lost Dutchman Mine which Mr. Ruth was supposed to be trying to locate."

So was it a MAP or was it DIRECTIONS? Erwin Ruth stated that his father had both a map and a set of directions that went with it, that his father probably had destroyed the written directions, and that the map without the written directions was useless. Purnell seemed to think that map would lead him to the mine but it did not. What were the directions? According to the Bark notes, quote

Adams refers to "the map or directions" found with the body. Thedirections were almost certainly a hand written excerpt, by AdolphRuth, from the P.C. Bicknell article.


Here is a photo of the actual note found on Ruth:

View attachment 1166171

Is it just a set of extracts from the Bicknell article? Some of it appears to be.


Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2:

PS for those inclined to think Ruth died a natural death, this passage from the Bark notes may alter that view:

"Whenthe searchers found the remains, tucked away in the slot of Ruth'scheck book, was a closely folded piece of paper, a leaf from hissmall notebook. There were several quite large blood stains on it,and blotted out several of the words written thereon. "

How would there be blood stains on a folded paper inside his check book?
Oroblanco
What type of canyon? I am having a difficult time reading that word. I have always thought that it was a "tributary" canyon. But this morning I am not seeing it. What is a "subtary" canyon? Just a spelling error?

About the note. If it was found tucked into Ruth's checkbook, and blood stained, if this is accurate, for me it suggests an manageable injury. I want to know if the blood stain was transferred with the letter unfolded (suggesting that he was reading it when the transfer occurred) or folded. If it was folded at the time of the transfer, this IMO would indicate massive trauma, not unlike a head wound. Lots of blood about.

I am not seeing the stains in this image???
Thank You!
 

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Oro, white beard makes sense. Though whitebread had me wondering if there wasn't something going on with Julia, wasn't she a baker? If the two had some sort of dalliance goin on the nickname would make sense and also lend credibility to Julia's story. Just my .02 worth.
 

Oro, white beard makes sense. Though whitebread had me wondering if there wasn't something going on with Julia, wasn't she a baker? If the two had some sort of dalliance goin on the nickname would make sense and also lend credibility to Julia's story. Just my .02 worth.

The nature of their relationship is curious for sure. I have always felt that Julia's involvement in the search continued on, perhaps not directly, but certainly beyond what we today understand. Not that hard to deduce the woman I am alluding to.

I don't remember reading about a whitebeard specifically, but old snowbeard was used.
 

Oroblanco
What type of canyon? I am having a difficult time reading that word. I have always thought that it was a "tributary" canyon. But this morning I am not seeing it. What is a "subtary" canyon? Just a spelling error?

About the note. If it was found tucked into Ruth's checkbook, and blood stained, if this is accurate, for me it suggests an manageable injury. I want to know if the blood stain was transferred with the letter unfolded (suggesting that he was reading it when the transfer occurred) or folded. If it was folded at the time of the transfer, this IMO would indicate massive trauma, not unlike a head wound. Lots of blood about.

I am not seeing the stains in this image???
Thank You!

I sure do not know the answer as to what was intended with "subtary" canyon. Did he mean subsidiary, or subterranean cavern? Ruth was an educated man (a veterinarian) so should know the words subsidiary and subterranean, so what did he mean with that word?

I don't see any blood staining on that paper either, which I probably should have posted this is ALLEGED to be a photo of the actual note, and I have seen a different photo that has clear staining on it, obliterating the words that appear on this photo as ____ ____. I wish we knew whether the blood staining was also on the check book cover, which might help determine if the blood on the folded paper was on it due to leaking in from outside, or if the paper was put in after. I would not say this absolves Purnell from suspicion for he could have put the paper inside the checkbook himself while rifling for the map he felt was worth killing for. It is notable that Ruth did not finish that quote from Caesar, which should have been Veni, Vidi, Vici, his is missing that last term indicating "I conquered".

Culinary Caveman wrote

Oro, white beard makes sense. Though whitebread had me wondering if there wasn't something going on with Julia, wasn't she a baker? If the two had some sort of dalliance goin on the nickname would make sense and also lend credibility to Julia's story. Just my .02 worth.



The nature of the relationship between Julia and Waltz has been a matter of speculation probably even while they were both alive. Julia was 29 years old when Waltz died, and he was 83. There have been May-December romances of course, but more commonly when two people with that much age difference have a relationship it is as friends. Julia and Reiney supposedly spoke German, and Waltz is alleged to have enjoyed his visits to her bakery/soda fountain because he could chat with them in German. Not that hard to understand IMHO. Plus they were kind enough to take him in when he was flooded out of his home and became sick. Up to the moment where Julia got into serious financial trouble, they had no indication that Waltz had any money, so her assistance looks much more like genuine charity not the lust-greed version we get from the Hollywood version (Lust for Gold) which still makes a good movie however. Reiney was a young man more like a boy, and from a couple of statements we get the impression that he was not too interested in listening to the old man tell his story or his directions on how to find the cache and mine.

I don't know for a surety what the truth of that situation was. Julia may have been a lonely woman, in those days a woman in her late 20s with no man could be seen as an old maid. Her husband had abandoned her and they recently were divorced (1891 not long before Waltz died). She had taken in Reiney in an informal adoption, and her behavior to take in Waltz whom she only knew was an old German that came to town to trade some eggs and chat, seems to indicate that she had a kindly nature.

I suspect that intended 'whitebeard' (whitebread) was the product of a journalist. It may even have been intended as whitebread, to imply some kind of illicit relationship with Julia (sex sells more papers than droll news) but it is hard to say at this point. Reporters would type up their articles and a typesetter put it into form to be printed in the newspapers, so there is room for errors to slip in at two stages. Snowbeard was supposedly the Pima nickname for Waltz, and their word for snow is "Gevi" while their word for white is "Toha" so it does not appear to be a word interpretation error but it could be. Alternately, if it were an Apache nickname, snow is "Zas" while white is "Ligai" so it is not easy to see that it could "white" mistaken for "snow" in that language either.

Side thing but journalists are responsible for creating the term "flying saucers" from the 1947 Kenneth Arnold UFO sighting. Arnold stated in the interview that the flying, crescent shaped metallic vehicles "skipped like saucers on a pond" (paraphrasing from memory there but that is close) and the news reporters converted that from flying crescent shaped things that skipped like saucers into flying saucers. I suspect this kind of journalist word doctoring is how that ended up being whitebread, instead of snowbeard.

Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

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I sure do not know the answer as to what was intended with "subtary" canyon. Did he mean subsidiary, or subterranean cavern? Ruth was an educated man (a veterinarian) so should know the words subsidiary and subterranean, so what did he mean with that word?

I don't see any blood staining on that paper either, which I probably should have posted this is ALLEGED to be a photo of the actual note, and I have seen a different photo that has clear staining on it, obliterating the words that appear on this photo as ____ ____. I wish we knew whether the blood staining was also on the check book cover, which might help determine if the blood on the folded paper was on it due to leaking in from outside, or if the paper was put in after. I would not say this absolves Purnell from suspicion for he could have put the paper inside the checkbook himself while rifling for the map he felt was worth killing for. It is notable that Ruth did not finish that quote from Caesar, which should have been Veni, Vidi, Vici, his is missing that last term indicating "I conquered".

Culinary Caveman wrote


The nature of the relationship between Julia and Waltz has been a matter of speculation probably even while they were both alive. Julia was 29 years old when Waltz died, and he was 83. There have been May-December romances of course, but more commonly when two people with that much age difference have a relationship it is as friends. Julia and Reiney supposedly spoke German, and Waltz is alleged to have enjoyed his visits to her bakery/soda fountain because he could chat with them in German. Not that hard to understand IMHO. Plus they were kind enough to take him in when he was flooded out of his home and became sick. Up to the moment where Julia got into serious financial trouble, they had no indication that Waltz had any money, so her assistance looks much more like genuine charity not the lust-greed version we get from the Hollywood version (Lust for Gold) which still makes a good movie however. Reiney was a young man more like a boy, and from a couple of statements we get the impression that he was not too interested in listening to the old man tell his story or his directions on how to find the cache and mine.

I don't know for a surety what the truth of that situation was. Julia may have been a lonely woman, in those days a woman in her late 20s with no man could be seen as an old maid. Her husband had abandoned her and they recently were divorced (1891 not long before Waltz died). She had taken in Reiney in an informal adoption, and her behavior to take in Waltz whom she only knew was an old German that came to town to trade some eggs and chat, seems to indicate that she had a kindly nature.

I suspect that intended 'whitebeard' (whitebread) was the product of a journalist. It may even have been intended as whitebread, to imply some kind of illicit relationship with Julia (sex sells more papers than droll news) but it is hard to say at this point. Reporters would type up their articles and a typesetter put it into form to be printed in the newspapers, so there is room for errors to slip in at two stages. Snowbeard was supposedly the Pima nickname for Waltz, and their word for snow is "Gevi" while their word for white is "Toha" so it does not appear to be a word interpretation error but it could be. Alternately, if it were an Apache nickname, snow is "Zas" while white is "Ligai" so it is not easy to see that it could "white" mistaken for "snow" in that language either.

Side thing but journalists are responsible for creating the term "flying saucers" from the 1947 Kenneth Arnold UFO sighting. Arnold stated in the interview that the flying, crescent shaped metallic vehicles "skipped like saucers on a pond" (paraphrasing from memory there but that is close) and the news reporters converted that from flying crescent shaped things that skipped like saucers into flying saucers. I suspect this kind of journalist word doctoring is how that ended up being whitebread, instead of snowbeard.

Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2:
Oro, Cubfan64, cactusjumper, Matthew Roberts, or any other local history sage that is feeling generous today.
Are you familiar with the Williams discovery?
I am looking for more than what I have which, unfortunately, is not much.

1930's?
First name Charles.
Thank you gentlemen and or ladies.
 

Ok. Anyone care to guess what this gentleman is so interested in?
Joe, if you guess this... You will leave me speechless?

TH Better?


copyright 2015. H. Croves
 

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Oro

I found out how the " German clues " are very accurate .
One of the clues which all have misinterpreted , is this :

german clue.jpg

Hole.JPG

All believed how is the Miner's Needle .
 

Ok. Anyone care to guess what this gentleman is so interested in?
Joe, if you guess this... You will leave me speechless?

TH Better?


copyright 2015. H. Croves
I will take a wild guess ,ruths skull.np:cat:
 

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