Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Cubfan64]

Oro, Cubfan64, cactusjumper, Matthew Roberts, or any other local history sage that is feeling generous today.
Are you familiar with the Williams discovery?
I am looking for more than what I have which, unfortunately, is not much.

1930's?
First name Charles.
Thank you gentlemen and or ladies.

Knowing how well you can research things, I strongly suspect I don't have anything to share that you haven't already seen. If anyone would have more than a routine search could nail down I would guess it would be Matthew, Greg Davis or Tom Kollenborn.

 

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[Cubfan64]

Ok. Anyone care to guess what this gentleman is so interested in?
Joe, if you guess this... You will leave me speechless?

TH Better?

copyright 2015. H. Croves

I'm probably wrong, but that reminds me of a newspaper photo I saw once of Travis Tumlinson.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe ??

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hal,

The Charlie Williams story is another of the Superstition Mountains lost cave stories.
Williams was a WWI veteran who was disabled and spent a lot of his time prospecting the Superstitions in the mid 1930's.
He disappeared on January 4, 1935 and Maricopa County Sheriff MacFadden searched for him for four days without any results and gave him up for dead.
Williams staggered into another prospectors camp half dazed a few days later with a head injury and a pocket full of gold nuggets.
The story he gave is basically as follows: He became tired and disoriented while hiking in the mountains and seeing a cave entrance nearby a pointed peak he made his way for the cave and collapsed inside. When he awoke he saw the cave floor was scattered with gold nuggets some the size of walnuts. He scooped some up and put them in his pocket but leaving the dark cave hit his head on the roof or overhang and knocked himself unconscious.
Dazed, he wandered around for two days when he stumbled into the camp of a prospector about eight miles northeast of Apache Junction.
In his pockets were the gold nuggets. When Williams tried to remember where he was he could not relocate the cave entrance.
In a sad twist to the story the US Government confiscated Williams gold nuggets because in 1935 it was illegal for a private person to possess gold.
A story circulated that the government said the nuggets were dental gold. That may have been the case but also may have been the government saying they were dental gold so they would not have had to return the gold to Williams so he could have sold it.
The Government never proved where Williams got the alleged dental gold nor could they produce a dentist or a partner Williams was supposed to be working with.
Williams was fined somewhere between $4,000 and $5,000 dollars by the Government which also was a good reason for the Government to claim he had dental gold.
Williams was always known as an honest and upstanding man before his experience with the cave and the gold nuggets, the Governments allegations against him were out of character for him not to mention unprovable in a court of law.

Matthew

 

[SGnAZ]

Matthew,can you tell me how the Gov knew he had gold?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

SGnAZ,

I do not know the exact details how the Government knew Williams had gold but I believe the article that appeared in the Arizona Republic concerning his ordeal stated he had the gold nuggets. His story caused a lot of interest so word of mouth also probably played into the outcome. Williams himself never denied he had found the gold nuggets in the cave.

It was not precisely illegal to have gold, you just couldn't hold or horde it. If you found gold as in nuggets in a cave you were allowed to sell it to the Government at the rate of $20.67 a troy ounce. The Governemnt's claim Williams had dental gold made it impossible for him to sell what he had found. The Government confiscated his gold, called it dental gold, fined him about $5,000 and never proved any of their allegations about it being dental gold.

Matthew

 

[SGnAZ]

Thanks.I'm just curious.
BTW,I used to live on Brookhurst near PCH.
I miss the ocean.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Thanks.I'm just curious.
BTW,I used to live on Brookhurst near PCH.
I miss the ocean.

SGnAZ,

You lived not far from John Spangler, he was Jim Bark's nephew. John lived at Brookhurst and Adams.
I'm on 9th Street just north of the Pacific Coast Highway. We would have been neighbors !

Matthew

 

[Hal Croves]

SGnAZ,

I do not know the exact details how the Government knew Williams had gold but I believe the article that appeared in the Arizona Republic concerning his ordeal stated he had the gold nuggets. His story caused a lot of interest so word of mouth also probably played into the outcome. Williams himself never denied he had found the gold nuggets in the cave.

It was not precisely illegal to have gold, you just couldn't hold or horde it. If you found gold as in nuggets in a cave you were allowed to sell it to the Government at the rate of $20.67 a troy ounce. The Governemnt's claim Williams had dental gold made it impossible for him to sell what he had found. The Government confiscated his gold, called it dental gold, fined him about $5,000 and never proved any of their allegations about it being dental gold.

Matthew

SGnAZ
Not too difficult to put it together. It was well reported and the gold visually documented as in this photograph. Williams was a vet and as already stated, mistreated by certain individuals in government. That should never be allowed to happen again. To anyone.


Matthew Roberts,
You never cease to amaze me.
Here is what's on the back side of that photograph which is not as interesting as what's on the other side.
The story is a warning to all those who think that finding something in the Superstitions and going public with the discovery will be a walk in the park.

copyright 2015 H. Croves

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good evening Hal Croves: The picture you posted shows a police officer at the Maricopa County Sheriff's office in Phoenix. He is looking at Charlie Williams holding the gold that Williams supposedly found in the Superstition Mountains. It is from an Arizona Republic Photograph printed in the Arizona Republic, Wednesday morning, January 9, 1935, Page 3, Col. 1-6. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello Hal,

You are exactly right, in my opinion the Federal agents gave Charlie Williams the Royal Treatment.
This story has always intrigued me. The Government made the claim Williams had dental gold and he had gotten it from a Dentist who was allegedly his partner in an attempt to fence the gold.

Even though the Government kept meticulous records of every Dentist in the country and their gold they couldn't come up with a single Dentist anywhere who could not account for every last ounce of their gold. Nor could they connect Williams to any Dentist either as a friend, acquaintance or as a patient. Nor could they explain how Williams would have had any access to dental gold.

The whole thing was preposterous but believed by everyone without question because who are you gonna believe, the US Government or a dirty, lyin, low down WWI disabled veteran who acted as though he had nothing to hide.? Williams had the right to sell the gold nuggets for the prescribed $20.67 per Troy ounce.
This is a good lesson, if you ever find anything of value, keep it to yourself or a very trusted few.

What intrigues me the most is there is a good chance there is a cave somewhere out there with maybe a few gold nuggets still lying in the dirt.

Matthew

 

[Hal Croves]

Good evening Hal Croves: The picture you posted shows a police officer at the Maricopa County Sheriff's office in Phoenix. He is looking at Charlie Williams holding the gold that Williams supposedly found in the Superstition Mountains. It is from an Arizona Republic Photograph printed in the Arizona Republic, Wednesday morning, January 9, 1935, Page 3, Col. 1-6. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Mr. Davis,
Another four years in the trenches and I might be able to at least hold an intelligent conversation with you. I am certainly trying.

About the image, what do you make of the object in the mans hand standing next to Williams (his left)? I find the location of Williams reappearance very curious.

 

[Oroblanco]

Good evening Hal Croves: The picture you posted shows a police officer at the Maricopa County Sheriff's office in Phoenix. He is looking at Charlie Williams holding the gold that Williams supposedly found in the Superstition Mountains. It is from an Arizona Republic Photograph printed in the Arizona Republic, Wednesday morning, January 9, 1935, Page 3, Col. 1-6. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

DANG Greg, good eye and memory! I am very impressed! I had no idea what the officer might have been looking at.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hal: The man to Williams left is holding a piece of the gold that Williams found. For those interested in the Williams Story, I would suggest that you go through the Arizona Republic and Gazette from January 5, l935 through January 12th. 1935. Plus Peoples Magazine of Arizona, Vol.2, No., 1 November 1937, P. 3-5. Next, St. Louis Post Dispatch, June 9, 1935 Sec. 1, Page 4. Gazette, November 15, l935. Page 1, Col. 1-2. Cordially, Greg Davis

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal: The man to Williams left is holding a piece of the gold that Williams found. For those interested in the Williams Story, I would suggest that you go through the Arizona Republic and Gazette from January 5, l935 through January 12th. 1935. Plus Peoples Magazine of Arizona, Vol.2, No., 1 November 1937, P. 3-5. Next, St. Louis Post Dispatch, June 9, 1935 Sec. 1, Page 4. Gazette, November 15, l935. Page 1, Col. 1-2. Cordially, Greg Davis

And that's how it's done.

At least I know that you don't have this one. An original drawing of Hal Croves following along in the trail of dust you leave behind. Note his expression.

Thank you Mr. Davis!

 

[Hal Croves]

Mr. Davis,
Another four years in the trenches and I might be able to at least hold an intelligent conversation with you. I am certainly trying.

About the image, what do you make of the object in the mans hand standing next to Williams (his left)? I find the location of Williams reappearance very curious.

Ok. I see it now.
I think it's his watch on the right hand (wrist) that is holding a cigar that confused me. In his left hand, the gold ore.
Anyway, if the story is true, and the ore retrieved from somewhere in the range, it echoes an earlier story about a Mexican stumbling out of the range having lost a partner to a strange breed of natives. A cave, rich gold ore, and eventually an escape.

 

[Hal Croves]

Evidence no, circumstantial evidence? If the stories about pre-American mining in the Superstitions are correct, it seems that we have many examples. One of the things that I find strange is that there never seems to be a follow up to these reports. Meaning, what became of the physical evidence of Spanish/Mexican mining in this story?

Bump.
View attachment 1169789

 

[sgtfda]

The world is full of lost treasure. Every state has many. Most who post on this Legend are not local. Some from other countries. I'm just curious why the Lost Dutchman and the maps and not something local. Can you explain your obsession?
Personally I can see the mountain from my pool and it plays on my mind.

 

[markmar]

If the William's gold was assayed as ( or like a ) dental gild , then the gold that had was almost pure at 24 karats .

 

[Cubfan64]

If the William's gold was assayed as ( or like a ) dental gild , then the gold that had was almost pure at 24 karats .

Markmar - I don't know what "dental gold" was comprised of back in the 1930's, but I find it hard to believe it would have been anywhere near 24K or pure gold. Pure gold doesn't have the hardness to be used for items that would get much wear, and chewing, grinding of teeth at night, etc... would definitely qualify as causing wear.

It would be interesting to find out the average composition of "dental gold" from the 1930 time frame.