Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Oro. We are now both pretty much on the path of reality. I'm not so much amazed by the statement attributed to Waltz that his secret mine would make millionaires out of twenty men (yes, that's twenty million ounces - eight years of worldwide production for GoldCorp!), but that so many would-be argonauts blithely accept it as "fact". Whew.

As I pointed out a few posts back, it's a sure bet that the Superstition range - and most others in the mineralized zones of AZ/NM/CO - were capable of, and did produce surface outcroppings of very rich ore. Not twenty million-ounce outcroppings of course, but good enough to greatly enrich their discoverers before pinching out, as most did in the early days before the capitalists developed the best zones. Yes, I too would put my energy into the "other stories" - the lesser-known - not the silly and somewhat tragic Theme Park Legend. The other stories you mentioned - and possibly more that have slipped through the cracks - seem to me to hold at least some promise.

I have had that impression - that we are basically on the same page, just looking at many aspects from a different perspective for a while now. You seem to prefer the scientific approach, which certainly has its merits. Unfortunately that world famous legend/myth is what people will continue to search for, until someone can prove that it is really a constructed tale from multiple sources.

Not to pick another bone but to get the 20 millionaires would only require one million ounces of gold, not 20 million ounces. Can't believe I just wrote "only one million ounces" as if that were a simple thing. But IF (underline that several times) a fair amount of the remaining ore body, ran the same as the assay done for Goldmans, namely $110,000 per ton or 5320+ ounces then it would only take something around 188 tons of that kind of ore to result in a million ounces of gold. As you know a couple hundred tons of rock heavy with gold (or lead, or copper) is not all that much, relatively speaking, especially when 'in situ'. I don't have a reference book but from memory, good gold ore often weighs about 150 pounds per cubic foot, so to make 200 tons of it, would mean 2666 cubic feet; this sounds like a lot but if the vein were a foot thick (as some sources have it) and were only one foot deep, it would run a bit over a half mile, but if the vein were deeper the length of the vein would be much shorter and still end up with 200 tons. Considering that (by at least one source) Waltz claimed his vein actually crops out well below the mine, in the canyon, this is not so far out. In my opinion!

Several mines have produced a million ounces or more so this is not necessarily out in space, however considering that the origin of it was supposedly Waltz reacting to someone dismissing his mine as nothing but a rich pocket, it is likely a boast and exaggeration. I take it that he felt there was a lot of gold remaining, not just a rich pocket. Anyway I would not want to sign my name to that statement of a million ounces remaining as an absolute fact. But who knows, maybe Waltz was underestimating the amount of gold remaining? Wouldn't that be a pleasant thing to discover!

I would even venture (opinion, and underline that too) that the Peralta story, with the Mexican mining camp near what is now called Horse camp, the large force of peons and perhaps even an attack by Apaches (or even Pimas if they had been mistreated) linked with the two Ludy men, could be a true story, and may well be what the origin of the Pit mine is. If the Pit mine is what it appears to be, a silver mine (chlorides/carbonates and quartz) with pockets of gold, then the Peraltas supposedly mining "gold and silver" would also fit. These Peraltas would not be Arizona residents but Sonoran, and records for that period of time are scant.

Oroblanco

 

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[azblackbird]

Unfortunately that world famous legend/myth is what people will continue to search for, until someone can prove that it is really a constructed tale from multiple sources.

LDM hunters remind me of a dog chasing it's tail.

If the serious LDM hunters would put as much work and research into finding real gold as they do the LDM, they'd all be millionaires.

 

[Oroblanco]

LDM hunters remind me of a dog chasing it's tail.

If the serious LDM hunters would put as much work and research into finding real gold as they do the LDM, they'd all be millionaires.

Well, why do you assume that LDM hunters do not go gold mining, besides hunting the famous lost mine? I do, in fact my wife and I own several mines and get gold from them every year. I know of several others who own mines and work them, besides hunting for the LDM or the LAD or other lost mines. One owns a famous ghost town and tourist spot, besides mining and hunting a lost mine. Probably there are some that ONLY look for the LDM but not all do, it takes money to search so it helps to have other sources of income. It is also nice to get some yellow metal once in a while, helps keep your eye fresh to find more.

I can't speak for all Dutch hunters of course, but they almost all have other things they do, to pay the bills and keep the wolves from the door; from cowboying to being the state Attorney General. From your previous posts I get the impression that you think this is all a huge joke, and anyone that would search for the lost mine just is not too smart to put it mildly. As you like to gold mine, hunting a lost mine is really not any different from what you do - just that it is looking for a particular mine that was found and lost. Same as looking for a rich placer or vein, just one that has been found before but is not known today. There are a bunch of lost mines that are not lost today, like the Silver King we mention so frequently. I would not recommend it for everyone, as the odds are stacked against you finding the lost mine, and a lot of people want immediate reward for their time and effort but if the odds don't bother you, and you have other ways to support yourself, why not give it a try? At worst, you don't find the mine, you get to see some beautiful country, and have a lot of fun in the bargain - and there is the chance you just might find a vein of gold or silver in the bargain. In my opinion, someone like you, with experience in prospecting, stands a far better chance of actually finding the mine than someone that has never even seen a mine but is working from the clues and treasure maps.


　
Oroblanco

 

[Shortfinger]

Aha! Now I know you are an old horse-cavalry man! We will get at your story one way or the other amigo, the truth slips out here and there like that one.

Yes, it does. And on so many posts and in so many threads....

JB

 

[azdave35]

LDM hunters remind me of a dog chasing it's tail.

If the serious LDM hunters would put as much work and research into finding real gold as they do the LDM, they'd all be millionaires.

my thoughts exactly....

 

[azdave35]

Well, why do you assume that LDM hunters do not go gold mining, besides hunting the famous lost mine? I do, in fact my wife and I own several mines and get gold from them every year. I know of several others who own mines and work them, besides hunting for the LDM or the LAD or other lost mines. One owns a famous ghost town and tourist spot, besides mining and hunting a lost mine. Probably there are some that ONLY look for the LDM but not all do, it takes money to search so it helps to have other sources of income. It is also nice to get some yellow metal once in a while, helps keep your eye fresh to find more.

I can't speak for all Dutch hunters of course, but they almost all have other things they do, to pay the bills and keep the wolves from the door; from cowboying to being the state Attorney General. From your previous posts I get the impression that you think this is all a huge joke, and anyone that would search for the lost mine just is not too smart to put it mildly. As you like to gold mine, hunting a lost mine is really not any different from what you do - just that it is looking for a particular mine that was found and lost. Same as looking for a rich placer or vein, just one that has been found before but is not known today. There are a bunch of lost mines that are not lost today, like the Silver King we mention so frequently. I would not recommend it for everyone, as the odds are stacked against you finding the lost mine, and a lot of people want immediate reward for their time and effort but if the odds don't bother you, and you have other ways to support yourself, why not give it a try? At worst, you don't find the mine, you get to see some beautiful country, and have a lot of fun in the bargain - and there is the chance you just might find a vein of gold or silver in the bargain. In my opinion, someone like you, with experience in prospecting, stands a far better chance of actually finding the mine than someone that has never even seen a mine but is working from the clues and treasure maps.


　
Oroblanco

i think what azbb is trying to say is why waste your time looking for a mine that you couldnt do anything with even if you found it..its in a restricted area..there are plenty of other goodies out there to look for...goodies that can actually be found and worked

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, today we have far better tools, as an example, a simple geochem kit would serve in most of those dry canyons, which may not have been dry in the Dutchman's era.

This would eliminate most of the uplands by sticking to the bottom of the canyons for your tests.

Most gold deposits have had plenty of time to migrate 'indicators' to the bottom.

 

[Oroblanco]

i think what azbb is trying to say is why waste your time looking for a mine that you couldnt do anything with even if you found it..its in a restricted area..there are plenty of other goodies out there to look for...goodies that can actually be found and worked

I can see and understand that viewpoint 100%. On the other hand, many millions of acres of public lands have been locked up as "wilderness areas", national monuments, expansions to national parks etc and reducing the available areas where we can legally prospect and mine. Not all of those lands really would pass the wilderness act requirements (no mineralized land is supposed to be included) and one last point, how do we KNOW the mine is inside the wilderness boundaries? Couldn't it be located outside those boundaries?

Real de Tayopa el Tropical Tramp wrote

Oro, today we have far better tools, as an example, a simple geochem kit would serve in most of those dry canyons, which may not have been dry in the Dutchman's era.

This would eliminate most of the uplands by sticking to the bottom of the canyons for your tests.

Most gold deposits have had plenty of time to migrate 'indicators' to the bottom.

• 
  
  Amen to that compadre, we have a much better toolbox than was available in the 1800s or 1700s. I agree that testing should start and follow the drainages, not climbing the cliffs looking for an outcropping, that you would do after finding indications in the valley below. Unfortunately gold colors can be found in quite a few of the valleys over large areas, making it difficult to narrow down which areas are the sources.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi. yes Oro, that they do, but you look for the out of the norm to find a deposit. Gold always follows the down stream path. So you find a certain value, this incresaes as you near the feed point then sharply drops off, indicating the proper drainage to follow up.

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Exactly!

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

oroblanco wrote:
I can see and understand that viewpoint 100%. On the other hand, many millions of acres of public lands have been locked up as "wilderness areas", national monuments, expansions to national parks etc and reducing the available areas where we can legally prospect and mine. Not all of those lands really would pass the wilderness act requirements (no mineralized land is supposed to be included) and one last point, how do we KNOW the mine is inside the wilderness boundaries? Couldn't it be located outside those boundaries?

roy..90% of the land the feds closed was done illegally and if we challenged them we could get it opened back up....

 

[sdcfia]

Amen to that compadre, we have a much better toolbox than was available in the 1800s or 1700s. I agree that testing should start and follow the drainages, not climbing the cliffs looking for an outcropping, that you would do after finding indications in the valley below. Unfortunately gold colors can be found in quite a few of the valleys over large areas, making it difficult to narrow down which areas are the sources.

Carpet bomb the likely areas, then come in and test the craters. They've already made some practice runs.

https://vimeo.com/18135369

 

[Oroblanco]

Carpet bomb the likely areas, then come in and test the craters. They've already made some practice runs.

https://vimeo.com/18135369

Wow how great to see those old war birds fly again! Thanks for sharing that!

 

[Shortfinger]

Wow how great to see those old war birds fly again! Thanks for sharing that!

Agreed. That should bring back some memories for Real de T. As I recall, his plane was a B-26 (or the Navy equivalent).

 

[Hal Croves]

Proof is hard to come by for sure. This is very curious:

"______ alleges to have access to the original Spanish archives to substantiate the Peralta grant for 50,000,000 acres of land in Arizona, Mexico and Southern New Mexico.

.... ______ says the mistake made by Revis was in going to the city of Mexico and Madrid and Seville, Spain, in search of the original grant documents, and in perpetrating bungling forgeries when he failed to find them. That the grant exist ______ claims to have indisputable evidence. He states that in 1821, at the close of the revolution of Mexico against Spain, the officers of the latter government undertook the official archives to Madrid, but these records only got as far as Havana, Cuba, whence they were afterward transported to _______, where they are today in perfect order."

If this is true, there just may be something in the archives of _______ worth reading about the Peraltas.

 

[markmar]

Hal

I believe how the Peraltas Land Grant was real . But you see , the land was large and rich , the interests big , and a trial parody was occurred to claim that grant as fraud .
Is better to leave the dog sleeping .

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

I believe how the Peraltas Land Grant was real . But you see , the land was large and rich , the interests big , and a trial parody was occurred to claim that grant as fraud .
Is better to leave the dog sleeping .

At this point, all I will say is that something is definitely not right with the whole case and I never let sleeping dogs rest.
Even the ones that bite.

 

[cactusjumper]

At this point, all I will say is that something is definitely not right with the whole case and I never let sleeping dogs rest.
Even the ones that bite.

Hal,

Believe the big problem was he used current-day paper for his forgeries. Watermark was one thing that gave him away.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

short haul, yes one was the Martin B-26, most didn't know that the Navy had them, later the A-26.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Believe the big problem was he used current-day paper for his forgeries. Watermark was one thing that gave him away.

Good luck,

Joe

Its amazing just how often Mr. Davis is mentioned in credits.

This is one of the more intelligent works on the Dutchman, actually on Ruth. You wrote that there was no missing map but that is still not clear and from what I can tell, the Peraltas just may have mined the Superstitions.