Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

Roy,

Accepted and the same apology to you.

I have never dismissed any clue, out of hand, and have always said there is nothing positive in doing that. On the other hand, I don't feel that one opinion defines me or paints the entire picture of my character.

We will always be friends.

Take care,

Joe

Glad we are square again - and I too believe in making friends for life, and have no requirements for agreeing on ANY thing. I have to agree with you too, that no one opinion defines an person's entire character. I fear that my previous posts did make it sound that way, <as if having a skeptical attitude was defining you> unfortunately the written word is always harsher than the spoken word and can often be taken in a way not intended.

Now about this topic.

Dustcap had worked out a complete spreadsheet on over 100 clues, I think he had 108 all told. Each was traced to the source or apparent source; this is something I have never done and still think it might be a helpful effort for anyone trying to find the lost Dutchman's mine. If even some of the many clues can thus be 'weeded out' or at least classed as probably not linked to the LDM, maybe linked, and probably linked, a guy trying to solve it by the clues would have a leg up in the game. Has anyone else ever worked out the sources for all the clues? Thanks in advance,

Oroblanco
 

<cut> even in lies, some truth may be hidden.

Oroblanco

Sure, bona-fide treasure stories are shrouded in lies. TH101. Why would anyone expect that this sort of information wouldn't be obfuscated from the very git-go? It's the researcher's task to acknowledge this and try to ferret his way through those lies in order to build a working model of what the original events really may have been. The LDM? Looks to me like Waltz was a weirdo who had a stash of highgrade ore that he may have brought to Phoenix with him to live on. He may well have lied about his "secret gold mine" to enhance the image of his meager chicken farming existence. All the "evidence"? The provenance is too corrupted, even the hearsay from those closest to Waltz, IMO. Just too much doubt for me to spend a lot of energy on. Your results may vary. The cottage industry of material that's grown in the past 120 years? Throw it out, too many cooks have ruined the soup over the decades - the experts are still arguing over Waltz's name, for Pete's sake.

That said, could there be rich surface pockets of gold ore here and there in the Superstitions? Of course - these things are all over the mineralized Southwest. Did Waltz find one? I wouldn't bet on it.
 

You need to look at how others shipped ore from the mines during the time period. Waltz would have done the same. You also need to look at what he did with gold. Buried it in his floor. Gold not cash! How did he pay for things at the store. Gold not cash. The dutchman legend does not have him bringing a wagon full of ore out of the mountain. You can only haul do much on a horse or mule.
 

You need to look at how others shipped ore from the mines during the time period. Waltz would have done the same. You also need to look at what he did with gold. Buried it in his floor. Gold not cash! How did he pay for things at the store. Gold not cash. The dutchman legend does not have him bringing a wagon full of ore out of the mountain. You can only haul do much on a horse or mule.

Sgtfda,
I am just now finishing up the Peralta Land Grant trial. Not sure if you spent any time with it but it would have been INSANITY to file on a rich claim that fell smack dab in the middle of all that controversy. There were some very powerful forces backing the scheme and the enforcers or rent collectors apparently were not kind. It would be interesting to compare the number of claims filed before, during, and after the trial.

Yes, the stories claim that gold was Waltz's method of payment for goods and services. There might be a record of his purchases still waiting to be found. Lorings Bazar, the archival records would be the place to search.
 

Sgtfda,
I am just now finishing up the Peralta Land Grant trial. Not sure if you spent any time with it but it would have been INSANITY to file on a rich claim that fell smack dab in the middle of all that controversy. There were some very powerful forces backing the scheme and the enforcers or rent collectors apparently were not kind. It would be interesting to compare the number of claims filed before, during, and after the trial.

Yes, the stories claim that gold was Waltz's method of payment for goods and services. There might be a record of his purchases still waiting to be found. Lorings Bazar, the archival records would be the place to search.

Hal,

Read that book years ago. I did not make the same connection you did concerning Waltz not filling a claim. He did file other claims, but you may be on to something.

Take care,

Joe
 

You need to look at how others shipped ore from the mines during the time period. Waltz would have done the same. You also need to look at what he did with gold. Buried it in his floor. Gold not cash! How did he pay for things at the store. Gold not cash. The dutchman legend does not have him bringing a wagon full of ore out of the mountain. You can only haul do much on a horse or mule.

Let's assume the old bird had a couple hundred pounds of highgrade gold ore - let's say it was 25% gold by weight if that holy matchbox is any indication. That's 50 pounds of gold - 700 ounces@20$/oz=$14,000. That's equivalent to $840,000 today - cash money, no taxes. Let's say it was only half of that - still pushing a half million in cash for a low profile recluse chicken farmer. I'm guessing he could easily live on selling eggs and nicking his stash now and then for 20 or 30 years. I know I could, even in today's inflated world. Two hundred pounds of highgrade is no problem to deal with. Ask some of the retired miners up in Montrose, CO.

Sure, Waltz may have gone hiking in the AZ hills now and then for something to do to keep active. Did he prospect the hills? Yeah, considering that's what his life had been for all those previous years, he probably did break rocks out of habit. What else is there to do out there? Did he discover a secret mine - the richest in the world, where no miner would ever go - and ship $254,000 worth of ore to CA, 13,000 gold ounces, worth $15,000,000 dollars today? Sorry, I need more than "what ifs" to swallow that whopper.
 

Hal,

Read that book years ago. I did not make the same connection you did concerning Waltz not filling a claim. He did file other claims, but you may be on to something.

Take care,

Joe
Honestly Joe, reading about it unnerved me a little. I can't believe the power that financed the scheme or how close a call it was. Have you read the published confession? It is very curious if infact it was transcribed accurately. I am not convinced they are his words.

I will dig out that article and post it here.
Can you imagine the wide spread panic that he caused?
 

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Let's assume the old bird had a couple hundred pounds of highgrade gold ore - let's say it was 25% gold by weight if that holy matchbox is any indication. That's 50 pounds of gold - 700 ounces@20$/oz=$14,000. That's equivalent to $840,000 today - cash money, no taxes. Let's say it was only half of that - still pushing a half million in cash for a low profile recluse chicken farmer. I'm guessing he could easily live on selling eggs and nicking his stash now and then for 20 or 30 years. I know I could, even in today's inflated world. Two hundred pounds of highgrade is no problem to deal with. Ask some of the retired miners up in Montrose, CO.

Sure, Waltz may have gone hiking in the AZ hills now and then for something to do to keep active. Did he prospect the hills? Yeah, considering that's what his life had been for all those previous years, he probably did break rocks out of habit. What else is there to do out there? Did he discover a secret mine - the richest in the world, where no miner would ever go - and ship $254,000 worth of ore to CA, 13,000 gold ounces, worth $15,000,000 dollars today? Sorry, I need more than "what ifs" to swallow that whopper.

Prospecting the hills was no walk in the park back then so, in my mind, there must have been something more to his wanderings than just passing away idle time.

To put $$ into perspective, look at Duppa's quarterly remittance and note that he was often broke until the arrival of the next payment. He was very wealthy, could go, do and have anything he wanted and still lived close to the earth, much like Waltz. They both were troubled men running from their past. I know for a fact that was true with Duppa. I am presuming it was the same with Waltz.

You are right not to swallow those numbers without first chewing some.
 

Speculation

Let's assume the old bird had a couple hundred pounds of highgrade gold ore - let's say it was 25% gold by weight if that holy matchbox is any indication. That's 50 pounds of gold - 700 ounces@20$/oz=$14,000. That's equivalent to $840,000 today - cash money, no taxes. Let's say it was only half of that - still pushing a half million in cash for a low profile recluse chicken farmer. I'm guessing he could easily live on selling eggs and nicking his stash now and then for 20 or 30 years. I know I could, even in today's inflated world. Two hundred pounds of highgrade is no problem to deal with. Ask some of the retired miners up in Montrose, CO.

Sure, Waltz may have gone hiking in the AZ hills now and then for something to do to keep active. Did he prospect the hills? Yeah, considering that's what his life had been for all those previous years, he probably did break rocks out of habit. What else is there to do out there? Did he discover a secret mine - the richest in the world, where no miner would ever go - and ship $254,000 worth of ore to CA, 13,000 gold ounces, worth $15,000,000 dollars today? Sorry, I need more than "what ifs" to swallow that whopper.

You are proposing a scenario that is wholly fictional - then compare it to the stories of Waltz. Remember the Apaches were still very much active right up into 1886 - how many men in their sixties (and older) do you think would go off ALONE into the mountains, knowing that there was a fairly good chance he might run into Geronimo or Nana with forty braves all too willing to kill and lift your scalp? I can't buy it that Waltz would have gone into the hills in that time period ALONE, unless he had a really good reason. Like to go dig out some more gold to support his lifestyle.

People have tried to assign Waltz only one or two or a few trips into the mountains, so then to say that huge figure ($250,000 or $254,000, depending on Higham or Terry) as if he must have hauled that out in just a few loads. He had from 1868 to 1890 to have done that, 23 years time. According to more than one source, he was a regular at a saloon, and that takes money to keep buying booze even if only your own. He may have even been gambling too, and money can evaporate really fast that way. Gambling was one of the most popular pastimes of the period too, so it is not a long stretch to see that as a possibility. If that huge quarter million is divided by twenty years, it is not so huge - $12,700 worth a year. That equates to 614 oz per year (roughly) and now recall that incident reported by Mitchell, that he sold two burro loads for $500. You get about 25 which would be a trip every two weeks or so. Still sound like it is so big to "swallow"? As Hal pointed out, this nice income would certainly allow Waltz to live just by selling a couple dozen eggs per week, which should not have even provided enough income to support food at the prices he would have to pay. There is no reason to assume that "huge" figure of money, a quarter million, was obtained in one or two shipments.

If the ore ran like the only assay we known of, then it amounted to roughly two and a half tons. How many burro loads does it take to amount to that? About 25. You could not do that with two burros in less than a DOZEN trips. This point means that $250,000 was almost certainly not obtained in one or two or three trips. It had to be at least a dozen trips, and who knows, may have been triple that or more. We don't know how much was brought out each time.

To further reduce that value, the shipping costs would have been high! This is one of the arguments used to support the contention that no miner would ship ore, but they were shipping ore - however only rich ores because of the shipping costs. I do not have the prices at hand but you should be able to find them fairly easily, and if memory serves it was very high, on the order of a dollar a pound. So shipping fifty pounds of ore would cost fifty dollars, and at the $110,000 per ton (not an arbitrary figure, this is from the actual assay so we don't have to guess) he would have to pay $50 for the shipping, and only receive $2700. For two and a half tons, this means something like $5000 in shipping costs. There may well have been other fees too, for smelting/refining, so that quarter million dollars could have been reduced by ten percent or more. We do not know whether that figure was a NET price or gross before costs and deductions.

The Peralta land grant might well have been a big reason to not file a claim that might get seized, and I would say that another factor was that Waltz was the only prospector active in the area. In the Bradshaws and many other mining districts, there were plenty of other miners around, and most would not only respect your claims but even helped to defend against Indian attacks robbers etc. The situation was very different in the Superstitions than in areas where many other prospectors were working. Plus there were a goodly number of people in the Phoenix area whom were active rustlers, robbers and even murderers, with very ineffective police work for most of the time Waltz was living there. He was trailed by several people - what would YOU do, if you had found a good mine, and then had people trying to trail you to it on more than one occasion? File a claim where no other mining claims had EVER been filed before, so that you must name the location (close) and make it easy for these thieving skulkers to sneak in and steal from your mine, since it is miles away into a wilderness and you can't very well stand guard over your mine? Even if you moved to live at the mine, sooner or later you would have to go to town for supplies, and they would have their opportunity.

Anyway had Waltz simply brought some gold from the Bradshaws, it makes NO sense for him to then tell his closest friends that his mine is in the Superstitions. Why wouldn't he simply tell them it was in the Bradshaws? These people had taken him in, in his old age, when his home was practically ruined by the flood, he was sickly and had no "visible' wealth. He was even a foreigner by birth, and there were plenty of people with deep prejudices against foreigners in that day. To propose that he lied to them, to "keep them interested" after they had shown him such kindness and were not related to him by blood or marriage, simply won't float for me.

Oroblanco

Tea or coffee anyone?
:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

Hal,

Read that book years ago. I did not make the same connection you did concerning Waltz not filling a claim. He did file other claims, but you may be on to something.

Take care,

Joe

Not many people know that there was actually a second Peralta Land Grant that surfaced in mid 1897. It's a fascinating part of history and the claim four times larger than the P/R claim.
 

Sgtfda,
I am just now finishing up the Peralta Land Grant trial. Not sure if you spent any time with it but it would have been INSANITY to file on a rich claim that fell smack dab in the middle of all that controversy. There were some very powerful forces backing the scheme and the enforcers or rent collectors apparently were not kind. It would be interesting to compare the number of claims filed before, during, and after the trial.

Yes, the stories claim that gold was Waltz's method of payment for goods and services. There might be a record of his purchases still waiting to be found. Lorings Bazar, the archival records would be the place to search.

Waltz was an agent of the Confederate/KGC/KKK Racket that was involved in stealing the small miner's claims, and hoarding the gold for the Confederacy. Reavis was the Forger.

Waltz's gold was plated and was mined by the Spanish/Jesuits, and he would trip up to the "Vault" to find the gold whenver he wanted......it was his part of the deal.....he also knew where the Vault was that had the stashes for the men who were 'employed' in a "perilous enterprise"

After the Massacre of the 30 men.....Waltz was the Agent who returned a series of maps to the others in VA, in secret, to inform the next of kin of their deaths and to provide a map for their shares.

I hold both the maps to the vaults, the mines, and the background of this affair in check, its hard to see without a full fact finding push, but lay it all on the table and its all fact for fact.

Anyone who cant read the code.....2 = 3 - mine - 18 = 7 at the bottom of the stones will have a hard time finding them all
 

Waltz was an agent of the Confederate/KGC/KKK Racket that was involved in stealing the small miner's claims, and hoarding the gold for the Confederacy. Reavis was the Forger.

Waltz's gold was plated and was mined by the Spanish/Jesuits, and he would trip up to the "Vault" to find the gold whenver he wanted......it was his part of the deal.....he also knew where the Vault was that had the stashes for the men who were 'employed' in a "perilous enterprise"

After the Massacre of the 30 men.....Waltz was the Agent who returned a series of maps to the others in VA, in secret, to inform the next of kin of their deaths and to provide a map for their shares.

I hold both the maps to the vaults, the mines, and the background of this affair in check, its hard to see without a full fact finding push, but lay it all on the table and its all fact for fact.

Anyone who cant read the code.....2 = 3 - mine - 18 = 7 at the bottom of the stones will have a hard time finding them all

Well, that is quite a story. Without trying to pick at it, I do have one question; what did you mean when you said that Waltz's gold was "plated"? Thanks in advance.

Oroblanco

I think I need more coffee
:coffee2: :coffee: :coffee2:
 

You are proposing a scenario that is wholly fictional - then compare it to the stories of Waltz. Remember the Apaches were still very much active right up into 1886 - how many men in their sixties (and older) do you think would go off ALONE into the mountains, knowing that there was a fairly good chance he might run into Geronimo or Nana with forty braves all too willing to kill and lift your scalp? I can't buy it that Waltz would have gone into the hills in that time period ALONE, unless he had a really good reason. Like to go dig out some more gold to support his lifestyle.

You can't have it both ways - he either went into the mountains alone or he didn't. Lifestyle? See below.

People have tried to assign Waltz only one or two or a few trips into the mountains, so then to say that huge figure ($250,000 or $254,000, depending on Higham or Terry) as if he must have hauled that out in just a few loads. He had from 1868 to 1890 to have done that, 23 years time. According to more than one source, he was a regular at a saloon, and that takes money to keep buying booze even if only your own. He may have even been gambling too, and money can evaporate really fast that way. Gambling was one of the most popular pastimes of the period too, so it is not a long stretch to see that as a possibility. If that huge quarter million is divided by twenty years, it is not so huge - $12,700 worth a year. That equates to 614 oz per year (roughly) and now recall that incident reported by Mitchell, that he sold two burro loads for $500. You get about 25 which would be a trip every two weeks or so. Still sound like it is so big to "swallow"? As Hal pointed out, this nice income would certainly allow Waltz to live just by selling a couple dozen eggs per week, which should not have even provided enough income to support food at the prices he would have to pay. There is no reason to assume that "huge" figure of money, a quarter million, was obtained in one or two shipments.

Whoa ... whoa. We're talking a $quarter million at 20 $/oz, remember? Multiply your figures by a factor of 60 and then try to make this amount of money more palatable. $750,000/year? Doesn't work for me. Even at Mitchell's $35/oz, this is crazy. Even if we accept your "ifs" and "maybes", and the treasure book yarns, we'd be describing much, much more than an egg seller's "lifestyle". Yes, Waltz may have had a couple hundred pound hoard of good ore as a backup for slow egg periods, but I trust that a prudent observer would quickly discard the "quarter million" story for what it is - nonsense. (Unless, of course, you can provide supporting documentation.)

If the ore ran like the only assay we known of, then it amounted to roughly two and a half tons. How many burro loads does it take to amount to that? About 25. You could not do that with two burros in less than a DOZEN trips. This point means that $250,000 was almost certainly not obtained in one or two or three trips. It had to be at least a dozen trips, and who knows, may have been triple that or more. We don't know how much was brought out each time.

Good point. If Waltz shipped or sold picture rock a couple-three dozen times, where is the documentation for any of those transactions? Why are there no reports of the same guy shipping ultra-rich picture rock dozens of times over decades? Who was it shipped to? How was Waltz paid?

To further reduce that value, the shipping costs would have been high! This is one of the arguments used to support the contention that no miner would ship ore, but they were shipping ore - however only rich ores because of the shipping costs. I do not have the prices at hand but you should be able to find them fairly easily, and if memory serves it was very high, on the order of a dollar a pound. So shipping fifty pounds of ore would cost fifty dollars, and at the $110,000 per ton (not an arbitrary figure, this is from the actual assay so we don't have to guess) he would have to pay $50 for the shipping, and only receive $2700. For two and a half tons, this means something like $5000 in shipping costs. There may well have been other fees too, for smelting/refining, so that quarter million dollars could have been reduced by ten percent or more. We do not know whether that figure was a NET price or gross before costs and deductions.

Seems like with so many transactions over so many years, we'd know who processed ore from the richest mine in the world. Seems like somebody might have commented on it too.

The Peralta land grant might well have been a big reason to not file a claim that might get seized, and I would say that another factor was that Waltz was the only prospector active in the area. In the Bradshaws and many other mining districts, there were plenty of other miners around, and most would not only respect your claims but even helped to defend against Indian attacks robbers etc. The situation was very different in the Superstitions than in areas where many other prospectors were working. Plus there were a goodly number of people in the Phoenix area whom were active rustlers, robbers and even murderers, with very ineffective police work for most of the time Waltz was living there. He was trailed by several people - what would YOU do, if you had found a good mine, and then had people trying to trail you to it on more than one occasion? File a claim where no other mining claims had EVER been filed before, so that you must name the location (close) and make it easy for these thieving skulkers to sneak in and steal from your mine, since it is miles away into a wilderness and you can't very well stand guard over your mine? Even if you moved to live at the mine, sooner or later you would have to go to town for supplies, and they would have their opportunity.

Sounds like a treasure magazine action story. A better explanation is that Waltz didn't file a claim because he didn't have one to file.

Anyway had Waltz simply brought some gold from the Bradshaws, it makes NO sense for him to then tell his closest friends that his mine is in the Superstitions. Why wouldn't he simply tell them it was in the Bradshaws? These people had taken him in, in his old age, when his home was practically ruined by the flood, he was sickly and had no "visible' wealth. He was even a foreigner by birth, and there were plenty of people with deep prejudices against foreigners in that day. To propose that he lied to them, to "keep them interested" after they had shown him such kindness and were not related to him by blood or marriage, simply won't float for me.

None of us were there. We not only don't know Waltz's reasoning, we don't even know for sure what happened or what was said.

Oroblanco

Tea or coffee anyone?
:coffee2: :coffee2:

I might need something stronger.
 

sdcfia wrote
You can't have it both ways - he either went into the mountains alone or he didn't. Lifestyle? See below.

And you wonder why I end up typing out LONG posts. Waltz did have a partner for a short time, so was not alone on every single trip. According to several sources, he went into the hills every year after he arrived in Phoenix until he grew very old.

sdcfia also wrote
Whoa ... whoa. We're talking a $quarter million at 20 $/oz, remember? Multiply your figures by a factor of 60 and then try to make this amount of money more palatable. $750,000/year? Doesn't work for me. Even at Mitchell's $35/oz, this is crazy. Even if we accept your "ifs" and "maybes", and the treasure book yarns, we'd be describing much, much more than an egg seller's "lifestyle". Yes, Waltz may have had a couple hundred pound hoard of good ore as a backup for slow egg periods, but I trust that a prudent observer would quickly discard the "quarter million" story for what it is - nonsense. (Unless, of course, you can provide supporting documentation.)

What was the cost of a glass of beer in Phoenix in 1878? Did you know they were importing English bottled beer? They were charging big prices on most everything. Not quite the gold rush prices of the Klondyke era, but pretty high, and considering that a lot of stuff had to run the Apache gauntlet, easy to understand. You are certainly welcome to discard the quarter million figure if you please, I do NOT say it is absolutely true. It is neither proven NOR disproven. The point was that this figure could easily have been the total for twenty three years of trips into the mountains, not one or two.

sdcfia also wrote
Good point. If Waltz shipped or sold picture rock a couple-three dozen times, where is the documentation for any of those transactions? Why are there no reports of the same guy shipping ultra-rich picture rock dozens of times over decades? Who was it shipped to? How was Waltz paid?

Where is the documentation for ANY gold ore sales from ANYONE for the time period in Arizona? Why do you insist that it is SO "super rich" picture rock" ore? The prettiest pieces ended up as jewelry, the rest of the ore could easily have been downright fugly. How was Waltz paid? The only evidence we have is that he was paid in CASH. Not checks, not drafts, and in some cases the gold was simply exchanged for goods in a store. Why would there by any reports of a guy shipping "super rich" ore, when Waltz was hardly the only prospector mining in Arizona at the time? I posted an example of a not-lost mine that had ore which even put Waltz's ore to shame - $180,000 per ton, from the Crown King. We only know about this because quite a few people worked at the mine and spread the word. One other thing here but ore buyers, smelters, and assayers were supposed to be discrete. An ore buyer who blabbed about the location where some rich ore he bought originated, would get a bad name in a hurry.

 
sdcfia also wrote
Seems like with so many transactions over so many years, we'd know who processed ore from the richest mine in the world. Seems like somebody might have commented on it too.

Does it? Who processed the Crown King ore? Do we have the receipts for that? What about the Vulture ore - neither of these were small operations. Waltz's ore was rich but not SO rich as to be earth-shattering, especially since it was almost surely going to be hand-picked, with as much waste rock already knocked off by hammering, and this would not be far different from what a hundred other small time miners were doing at the same time period. I have to take issue with that "richest mine in the world" statement too, for where does it come from? Even if that came from Waltz, doesn't it sound more like a boast than an engineer's report? There have been richer mines NOT lost than Waltz's, and even a few that had richer ore that are lost like the Cement mine of California.

sdcfia also wrote
Sounds like a treasure magazine action story. A better explanation is that Waltz didn't file a claim because he didn't have one to file.

Really? So it is SO farfetched and unbelievable, that a man with a proven record of having been a successful prospector, who tells his closest friends that he has a hidden mine, and rich gold ore from it, could be true? And in an area where it is proven geology that gold DOES exist there?

sdcfia also wrote
None of us were there. We not only don't know Waltz's reasoning, we don't even know for sure what happened or what was said.
and
I might need something stronger.

If my posts are so unbelievable and call for you to need something stronger than coffee or tea, why do you read and respond to them? Are you looking for me to convince you the LDM is true? Are you ready for a surprise?

You are right, in that the LDM legend mine, the one with the 200 peons slaving in the mine, the terrible massacre, the huge funnel shaped pit AND also at the same time was only the size of a barrel and not more than a dozen feet deep, with ALL the various tales thrown in, NEVER EXISTED. That LDM legend is an amalgamation of at least five different lost mines, (not all lost today) perhaps as many as nine! So I would agree with you, that it is a waste of time to try to find THAT Lost Dutchman's gold mine, or that it was found in the Pit mine. So we see things differently on a number of things, for it looks to me that if you were to successfully separate the various mine stories, you could have a chance to find one of them. Two you can find right now - Bark's & Ely's mine is right at the lake, may be under water, and was mined out, and the Pit mine which has a number of 'clues' that will fit, although that too was cleaned out.
 


 
 
 


 Oroblanco
 

I have to add a bit to that last one. Steve brought up some excellent points, concerning the large amount of money alleged to have been Waltz's income from his mine. As he pointed out, multiply the figures by 60 to get an idea of the values today. That is a good idea, but also look at what things cost Waltz (and everyone else) in that time and place.

From the local newspapers (those most hated sources) we can find some prices being advertised. As they are advertised, we can surmise that these prices are probably "sale" prices, not the regular prices for every day business. An example from 1879, lists good teamster boots at $8 a pair. Now multiply that by 60, and the equivalent would be $480. Most of us would not want to pay that much for a pair of good boots, but that was a sale price in a store in Phoenix, in 1879. Then what about a meal at a restaurant? One of the cheapest I could find, was fifty cents. No description of what that meal might be, it could be a bowl of oatmeal or a sandwich and a pickle, but then multiply that by 60 and it would be $30 today. Would you like to pay $30 for a meal of what ever the hotel might deign to offer? I have run into that kind of price in the north country, and have even paid $4 for a slice of toast, and $7 for a hamburger with no extras (twenty years ago) and you might be surprised at how fast the money can evaporate for you when everything is jacked up in price. You can check the prices against newspaper ads for eastern cities for the same time, and find the western prices are a multiple of the east, so a pair of good work boots would sell for $2 to $3 a pair, or a 'meal' for ten cents.

Another possible way that Waltz (or any man of that day and place) could have gone through a lot of money fast, with nothing tangible to show for it later, would be the hired companionship of a member of the opposite sex, for a rendezvous. This was not illegal in that time and place, and could burn through cash almost as fast as gambling, with no visible object to find listed on the property tax rolls later. Considering there is no hint that Waltz was gay (he supposedly lived with an Indian woman for a time) and never legally married, this could have been one outlet for his income. I doubt very much that he could have enjoyed that pastime on the sales of a few dozen eggs, even if eggs were more high priced in that time.

I am not claiming this is what Waltz did, although several of the old timers did claim that Waltz was a "wild one" when he was younger, and Mitchell had it that he was practically a fixture at a saloon in Phoenix in his later years. Anyway I don't see the story of Jacob Waltz, a gold miner who retired in Phoenix (as some have today) and with his own secret gold mine in the Superstitions as farfetched at all. Compared with some stories, which have incredibly rich silver or gold mines, supposedly located in areas where NO gold has ever been found and the geology is entirely against the possibility, the Jacob Waltz story is not even in the same book. For a comparison, look at the geology where the Lost Adams has been hunted for intensively, hardly any trace of gold found at all in much of the area. How many known gold mines are located within ten miles of the Adams ground? In contrast, within ten miles of the Superstitions, you can count eight or ten!


Oroblanco


:coffee2: :coffee2:
 

<cut>
Are you ready for a surprise?

You are right, in that the LDM legend mine, the one with the 200 peons slaving in the mine, the terrible massacre, the huge funnel shaped pit AND also at the same time was only the size of a barrel and not more than a dozen feet deep, with ALL the various tales thrown in, NEVER EXISTED. That LDM legend is an amalgamation of at least five different lost mines, (not all lost today) perhaps as many as nine! So I would agree with you, that it is a waste of time to try to find THAT Lost Dutchman's gold mine, or that it was found in the Pit mine. So we see things differently on a number of things, for it looks to me that if you were to successfully separate the various mine stories, you could have a chance to find one of them. Two you can find right now - Bark's & Ely's mine is right at the lake, may be under water, and was mined out, and the Pit mine which has a number of 'clues' that will fit, although that too was cleaned out.

Oroblanco

Thank you Oro. We are now both pretty much on the path of reality. I'm not so much amazed by the statement attributed to Waltz that his secret mine would make millionaires out of twenty men (yes, that's twenty million ounces - eight years of worldwide production for GoldCorp!), but that so many would-be argonauts blithely accept it as "fact". Whew.

As I pointed out a few posts back, it's a sure bet that the Superstition range - and most others in the mineralized zones of AZ/NM/CO - were capable of, and did produce surface outcroppings of very rich ore. Not twenty million-ounce outcroppings of course, but good enough to greatly enrich their discoverers before pinching out, as most did in the early days before the capitalists developed the best zones. Yes, I too would put my energy into the "other stories" - the lesser-known - not the silly and somewhat tragic Theme Park Legend. The other stories you mentioned - and possibly more that have slipped through the cracks - seem to me to hold at least some promise.
 

I have to add a bit to that last one. Steve brought up some excellent points, concerning the large amount of money alleged to have been Waltz's income from his mine. As he pointed out, multiply the figures by 60 to get an idea of the values today. That is a good idea, but also look at what things cost Waltz (and everyone else) in that time and place.

From the local newspapers (those most hated sources) we can find some prices being advertised. As they are advertised, we can surmise that these prices are probably "sale" prices, not the regular prices for every day business. An example from 1879, lists good teamster boots at $8 a pair. Now multiply that by 60, and the equivalent would be $480. Most of us would not want to pay that much for a pair of good boots, but that was a sale price in a store in Phoenix, in 1879. Then what about a meal at a restaurant? One of the cheapest I could find, was fifty cents. No description of what that meal might be, it could be a bowl of oatmeal or a sandwich and a pickle, but then multiply that by 60 and it would be $30 today. Would you like to pay $30 for a meal of what ever the hotel might deign to offer? I have run into that kind of price in the north country, and have even paid $4 for a slice of toast, and $7 for a hamburger with no extras (twenty years ago) and you might be surprised at how fast the money can evaporate for you when everything is jacked up in price. You can check the prices against newspaper ads for eastern cities for the same time, and find the western prices are a multiple of the east, so a pair of good work boots would sell for $2 to $3 a pair, or a 'meal' for ten cents.

Another possible way that Waltz (or any man of that day and place) could have gone through a lot of money fast, with nothing tangible to show for it later, would be the hired companionship of a member of the opposite sex, for a rendezvous. This was not illegal in that time and place, and could burn through cash almost as fast as gambling, with no visible object to find listed on the property tax rolls later. Considering there is no hint that Waltz was gay (he supposedly lived with an Indian woman for a time) and never legally married, this could have been one outlet for his income. I doubt very much that he could have enjoyed that pastime on the sales of a few dozen eggs, even if eggs were more high priced in that time.

I am not claiming this is what Waltz did, although several of the old timers did claim that Waltz was a "wild one" when he was younger, and Mitchell had it that he was practically a fixture at a saloon in Phoenix in his later years. Anyway I don't see the story of Jacob Waltz, a gold miner who retired in Phoenix (as some have today) and with his own secret gold mine in the Superstitions as farfetched at all. Compared with some stories, which have incredibly rich silver or gold mines, supposedly located in areas where NO gold has ever been found and the geology is entirely against the possibility, the Jacob Waltz story is not even in the same book. For a comparison, look at the geology where the Lost Adams has been hunted for intensively, hardly any trace of gold found at all in much of the area. How many known gold mines are located within ten miles of the Adams ground? In contrast, within ten miles of the Superstitions, you can count eight or ten!


Oroblanco


:coffee2: :coffee2:

I did some looking and had no idea just how expensive thing were. In 69', the average monthly wage for Prescott labor (mining) was between $60-$75 per month. Today, that's about $225 a day based on the x60 idea. That same year a round trip coach ticket from Prescott to Wikenberg was $40 gold coin = $2400 today. Today a taxi from Prescott to Wikenberg is $150, a bus $40.
 

I did some looking and had no idea just how expensive thing were. In 69', the average monthly wage for Prescott labor (mining) was between $60-$75 per month. Today, that's about $225 a day based on the x60 idea. That same year a round trip coach ticket from Prescott to Wikenberg was $40 gold coin = $2400 today. Today a taxi from Prescott to Wikenberg is $150, a bus $40.

Well then, why would Waltz even need a gold mine? Frontier eggs in his day were usually sold for a dollar a dozen, sometimes much more. That's 60 bucks today. A couple-three dozen hens and you're approaching miners' wages. It's a lot safer work too.
 

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