Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[markmar]

Cubfan64

I have an uncle who has/had some gold molar tooth sealings . I saw the sealings in 1979 when he laughed one day . From curiosity , I asked him if the sealings were gold , and he told me how were 24K gold . He was/is a rich man and maybe wanted to shows it in that case .
This is my only experience about dental gold , and I supposed how William's could been the same . If it was not , then i am wrong on my statement .

 

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[Cubfan64]

From The Pueblo Indicator, Nov. 16, 1935...



Seems like it would be hard to prove one way or another that gold nuggets were or were not dental gold based solely on an assay. Just because the concentrations of different components are within range of what they were using as dental gold at that time doesn't prove the same alloyed concentrations don't exist in nature. I suppose if Williams did have a partner or was associated with a dentist friend, that might start a person leaning towards the dental gold conclusion, but it still doesn't prove anything.

Interesting stuff

 

[Matthew Roberts]

From The Pueblo Indicator, Nov. 16, 1935...

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Seems like it would be hard to prove one way or another that gold nuggets were or were not dental gold based solely on an assay. Just because the concentrations of different components are within range of what they were using as dental gold at that time doesn't prove the same alloyed concentrations don't exist in nature. I suppose if Williams did have a partner or was associated with a dentist friend, that might start a person leaning towards the dental gold conclusion, but it still doesn't prove anything.

Interesting stuff

Cubfan64,

It's interesting the news article states that an "assay" found Williams gold nuggets were dental gold.
The Maricopa County Sheriff's office turned over all their findings to the Federal District Court in Los Angeles (the Federal agents who prosecuted Williams) and there was no assay report or analysis by either MCSO or the Treasury Department at Los Angeles).
There was a note simply stating the gold was not pure 24 carat.
But that means nothing in proving if it is dental gold or placer nuggets.
Nearly all gold mined or placer is not pure 24 carat. It has to be refined to become 24 carat.

Gold found in mines and washes normally contains a certain amount of silver, copper or other trace elements. These trace elements have to be refined out before there can be pure 24 carat gold. Those same trace elements, silver and copper are what was/is still used to make dental gold. Today we have titanium and platinum which was not available in the 1930's.
Someone probably did a quick jewelers test to see if it was pure gold and when it wasn't they said, "AHA" ! it must be dental gold.

The Treasury Department also accused Williams of working hand and hand with a Dentist who was his partner. However they could not connect Williams with any Dentist. In fact they could not substantiate a single charge they leveled against Williams with any proof.

The Treasury Department and the IRS have their own courts, it's a closed system, no jury of your peers nonsense. You are tried by the same people who accuse you. Williams lost even though there was no evidence against him. Imagine that ? And was fined close to $5,000.

Williams could have been imprisoned for up to ten years. I guess he must have gotten off lucky with just losing his gold and the $5,000 dollar fine.

Matthew

 

[markmar]

Matthew

Classical gov practice . William suffered what in Greece we are calling " Beaten and cuckold " .

 

[Oroblanco]

The world is full of lost treasure. Every state has many. Most who post on this Legend are not local. Some from other countries. I'm just curious why the Lost Dutchman and the maps and not something local. Can you explain your obsession?
Personally I can see the mountain from my pool and it plays on my mind.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the LDM is today the most famous (or at least one of the most famous) lost mine legends in the US. It has been covered in a bunch of TV programs, even at least one movie, so the story has reached a huge audience not to mention the hundreds of books and magazine articles. The LDM was not always the most famous, at earlier periods of our history the lost Pegleg, the lost Adams, and the lost Cabin mines were all considered <each> the"most" famous at one time, and there are hundreds of articles and some books on these. I think we can put the blame on Pierpont C. Bicknell for having published his two articles on the LDM which got picked up by the news wires, and thus got the story published nationwide (and even in such far flung places as New Zealand). The story has a ring of truth for many people, (not all of course) and few things are so fascinating to the mind as a great unsolved mystery, a riddle that has the pot-o-gold at the end of the proverbial rainbow to the lucky and/or wise treasure hunter who manages to solve the riddle and find it. It is a puzzling thing that some formerly very popular lost mine legends are today almost unknown to the general public, like the lost Cabin mine of Wyoming, not sure how to explain that. Heck you should understand the thing very well Sarge, as you came from PA to AZ, and if memory serves were more interested in 'plain vanilla' prospecting as opposed to a lost mine legend. Something 'clicks' in the brain and the quest is on. As Cubfan has as a tag line, there is no escape from a treasure once it has latched onto your mind.

Please do continue;
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

There is a big difference between what a nugget looks like and any man made gold item including fake nuggets.

 

[Cubfan64]

There is a big difference between what a nugget looks like and any man made gold item including fake nuggets.

Frank - it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to take 18-22K gold (be it dust, scrap, etc...), melt and cast it, and then tumble it for the right period of time in a rock tumbler with the right media and end up with a "nugget" of gold that would be pretty hard to differentiate from a real natural nugget, no?

Why someone would want to do that I don't know unless they could charge a markup over the gold value by calling it a natural nugget?

Truly fake nuggets like copper or lead plated with a thin layer of gold would be easy to identify and I've even heard of people who will melt gold and pour it into cracks in quartz to try to pass it off as specimen ore.

I'll look tonight, but I thought in Thomas Glover's book he said something about the Goldfield ore being almost the same makeup as "dental gold."

 

[sgtfda]

Paul I bought nuggets for the Gpap for 2 years. I can spot a recast. They are out there. Many being sold on eBay listed as the real thing. Fellow tried to sell some to the club last month. Take a hike!
You see a large nugget is worth more than smaller placer. It rarer.

 

[Las Vegas Bob]

Frank - it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult to take 18-22K gold (be it dust, scrap, etc...), melt and cast it, and then tumble it for the right period of time in a rock tumbler with the right media and end up with a "nugget" of gold that would be pretty hard to differentiate from a real natural nugget, no?

Why someone would want to do that I don't know unless they could charge a markup over the gold value by calling it a natural nugget?

Truly fake nuggets like copper or lead plated with a thin layer of gold would be easy to identify and I've even heard of people who will melt gold and pour it into cracks in quartz to try to pass it off as specimen ore.

I'll look tonight, but I thought in Thomas Glover's book he said something about the Goldfield ore being almost the same makeup as "dental gold."

There is that certain something that allows the trained eye to spot a fake nugget from a real one, I've seen my share of both real and fake and I can spot the fakes every time.

 

[Cubfan64]

Bob and Frank - good thing I'm not trying to pass off any man made nuggets on Ebay . I wouldn't have thought it would be that easy to tell the difference, but I'll definitely take your word for it!

I do believe what you say too Frank, that a large nugget can sell for a higher price than just the gold value alone so there's the incentive to fake them. Heck, I guess if it was that easy to fake, people could buy .999 gold bars for just over spot, then turn around and melt them down into marble sized chunks, do a little "processing" to make them look real and sell them for a profit.

Hard to say what Charles Williams actually had back in 1935, but it's nice to imagine a small cave out there somewhere with a few pounds of nuggets on the ground waiting to be discovered .

Thanks for the insight

 

[Hal Croves]

Bob and Frank - good thing I'm not trying to pass off any man made nuggets on Ebay . I wouldn't have thought it would be that easy to tell the difference, but I'll definitely take your word for it!

I do believe what you say too Frank, that a large nugget can sell for a higher price than just the gold value alone so there's the incentive to fake them. Heck, I guess if it was that easy to fake, people could buy .999 gold bars for just over spot, then turn around and melt them down into marble sized chunks, do a little "processing" to make them look real and sell them for a profit.

Hard to say what Charles Williams actually had back in 1935, but it's nice to imagine a small cave out there somewhere with a few pounds of nuggets on the ground waiting to be discovered .

Thanks for the insight

I guess it comes down to motive. What was Williams motive in risking jail time and fines for purchasing, hoarding and presenting what appears to be a significant amount of gold? A pound and one half? Publicity? It just doesn't feel right. Williams was a good looking, well respected Vet, and looks quite confident in his photo. Remember, gold was not openly available for purchase at the time. It had to come from somewhere and there was never any dentist named.

Perhaps it was simply too soon after the Ruth disaster which, as we all know, strained relationships. Williams' discovery sounds a lot like those I have read about during the opening of the territory. Gold nuggets on hilltops removed with only a pen knife, natives using and trading gold slugs for lead and clothing.

 

[Hal Croves]

The world is full of lost treasure. Every state has many. Most who post on this Legend are not local. Some from other countries. I'm just curious why the Lost Dutchman and the maps and not something local. Can you explain your obsession?
Personally I can see the mountain from my pool and it plays on my mind.

This seems like a fairly universal sentiment. Within view, but always just out of reach. It must be even harder for those living in the shadow of the range. A constant distraction I would guess.

 

[Cubfan64]

This seems like a fairly universal sentiment. Within view, but always just out of reach. It must be even harder for those living in the shadow of the range. A constant distraction I would guess.

A constant distraction I'm sure, but at least living within the shadows of the area allows a person to "scratch that itch" whenever they want rather than having to wait to do it only once a year or less.

 

[Las Vegas Bob]

Bob and Frank - good thing I'm not trying to pass off any man made nuggets on Ebay . I wouldn't have thought it would be that easy to tell the difference, but I'll definitely take your word for it!

I do believe what you say too Frank, that a large nugget can sell for a higher price than just the gold value alone so there's the incentive to fake them. Heck, I guess if it was that easy to fake, people could buy .999 gold bars for just over spot, then turn around and melt them down into marble sized chunks, do a little "processing" to make them look real and sell them for a profit.

Hard to say what Charles Williams actually had back in 1935, but it's nice to imagine a small cave out there somewhere with a few pounds of nuggets on the ground waiting to be discovered .

Thanks for the insight

Just for info, the place where I sell my gold has an X-Ray Spectrometer machine which will immediately tell them the carat of the gold as well as the composition of the gold such as how much copper, silver etc. it has in it.

Since I have sold gold from different parts of the country I have learned that Arizona gold that I have dry washed in the desert has a higher carat value then North California gold I have dredged from a river do to the make up of the gold when it was forming.

 

[Hal Croves]

A constant distraction I'm sure, but at least living within the shadows of the area allows a person to "scratch that itch" whenever they want rather than having to wait to do it only once a year or less.

Ouch! Thanks for reminding me of that nagging itch. Sometimes, I feel like I have fuzzy mittens glued to my hands.

 

[Azquester]

Hal this will cure your Mitten Problem with a dose of shiny from dredging last year!

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Ouch! Thanks for reminding me of that nagging itch. Sometimes, I feel like I have fuzzy mittens glued to my hands.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal this will cure your Mitten Problem with a dose of shiny from dredging last year!

View attachment 1170342
View attachment 1170343

Bill,
Because I know almost nothing about gold, it took me years to understand the idea behind Jason's Golden Fleece. What an ingenious and simple way to extract gold. Nice photograph!

 

[Azquester]

There you go again Hal, dredging up the past!

I've got to hand it too you though, you do spin a good yarn!

Bill,
Because I know almost nothing about gold, it took me years to understand the idea behind Jason's Golden Fleece. What an ingenious and simple way to extract gold. Nice photograph!

 

[KXMember]

The Peralta land grant spread all through NM and AZ. There are a couple of guys still fighting gov over grants here in NM...I'll have to find there names...been a while

 

[gollum]

Just for info, the place where I sell my gold has an X-Ray Spectrometer machine which will immediately tell them the carat of the gold as well as the composition of the gold such as how much copper, silver etc. it has in it.

Since I have sold gold from different parts of the country I have learned that Arizona gold that I have dry washed in the desert has a higher carat value then North California gold I have dredged from a river do to the make up of the gold when it was forming.

Bob,

I have had some Feather River (California) gold that ran almost 98% pure. No additives, no preservatives!

Frank,

I have seen nuggets that are about impossible to tell are fakes. Simple to make too. Say I want to fake some nice Chocolate Mountains (California) nuggets (approx 65% gold, 20% silver, 10% copper, 5% lead). I start by mathematically figuring out what I need to have. Pure Gold, Pure Silver, Pure Copper, Pure Lead. I will round things off for simplicity. 65 ounces of gold, 20 ounces silver, etc etc etc. Smelt them together, and we have a perfect Chocolate Mountain Natural Gold Alloy. Pour it into a mold, and let cool. Fill up a 5gal bucket with ice and water. Wait till its as cold as it is going to get. Place the bucket on the floor underneath a bench vise. Place the bar in the vise, then hit it with a MAP Gas or Oxy-Acetylene Torch. Slowly melt it and let the globs of molten gold hit the ice water, and by the time that gold hits the bottom of the bucket, it looks as natural as you can get.

Mike