Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Hal Croves]

Here is something I wrote back around 2007:

From: Joe Ribaudo Date: 7/9/2008 10:37:18 AM Subject: WELLS FARGO/WALTZ

I, along with many others have done a bit of research into this subject. Here is some of the results that have been found: ----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- Quote: "The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied." This is an quote from United States Treasure Atlas, Volume 1, Thomas P. Terry PP 59. ----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ---------------------- ------------------------ That statement has made the rounds in Dutch Hunting circles for many years before Thomas Terry came along. It has probably been checked out many more times than it has been quoted in a book. Your first clue should have been when he said: "The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the Us Mint at Sacramento...." First of all, there has never been a U.S. Mint in Sacramento.....that I know of. Next, is the fact that the records he speaks of for Wells Fargo in San Francisco, don't exist. They were destroyed in the Great San Francisco Fire of 1906. If Terry had taken the time to check his story......like all of the top LDM researchers have, he would have found the same thing they did. That would be zero, nada, zilch. I would be willing to list the authors who have checked out this same exact story. In this case, using Terry for a source is a total waste of time. Many researchers have investigated the story of Waltz's ore shipments. When it comes to the LDM, I doubt each and every writer........all of them. One of the researchers who looked into this part of the legend, was Glenn Magill. These statements can be found on pages 60 and 61 of "The Killer Mountains": "More frustrating still were his attempts to track down Waltz's ore shipments. According to legend, Waltz and his partner, Jacob Wiser, had shipped more than a quarter of a million dollars' worth of gold to the San Francisco Mint from various points in Arizona Territory, including Phoenix, Florence, Casa Grande, and Pinal. An even dozen letters were necessary before Magill learned that the appropriate United States Mint ledgers were now stored in the San Francisco Center of the National Archives. An equal number were necessary before permission was obtained for a San Francisco friend to search them. The search netted nothing. Except for the names of a few individual ore buyers and some large mines such as the Silver King, shipments were listed mostly under the names of banks, businesses and stage companies. In Waltz's time, when a man cashed in his gold, the common practice was to sell it to an ore buyer or to a stage line, in this case Wells Fargo. An inquiry to the History Room of Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco brought the information that the old stage records no longer existed."........Destroyed by the 1906 fire? For anyone contemplating a trip to San Francisco, I would suggest that you first read: "Fools' Gold" by Robert Sikorsky. Page 4 lists "Acknowledgements". On the list is this: "The Wells Fargo Bank, History Room, San Francisco; University of Heidelberg, Records Division; General Services Administration, National Archives, Federal Records Centers at Denver, San Francisco and Washington, D. C.; United States Mint, Office of the Director, Washington, D. C.; A. L. Flagg Foundation, Phoenix. While I am not vouching for the veracity of Mr. Sikorsky's "facts", there is no doubt that he at least looked up the locations that would house the records we are discussing and, he states no records were found linking Jacob Waltz to any gold shipments to San Francisco. On pages 122 and 123, he gives the names of the people he talked to. That makes two researcher into the legend that, pretty much, come up with the same story. I believe more could be found. Magill was trying to find any evidence that would support the LDM legend. As a Private Detective, I would imagine he did a pretty thorough job of it. I doubt the truthfulness of Magill and Sikorsky, as well as all of the other books that have been written. You can see that you are in good company here. The $254,000 ore shipments story has been around a long time. It has been checked out seven ways from Sunday by some of the best LDM researchers in the business. They checked Wells Fargo, the different U.S. Mints and archives and even looked for a U.S. Mint in Sacramento. It has been proven without any basis over and over again. The last person I asked about it was Dr. Thomas Glover. Same searches, same results. I hold the man's research abilities second to none, and I know some pretty good hands. I received this, this morning: Hi, Joe, Alas, we do not have any records of ore shipments from Arizona. All such remained the property of the shipping office, and have disappeared over the years. Regards, Dr. Robert J. Chandler Senior Research Historian Historical Services, A0101-106 Wells Fargo Bank 420 Montgomery Street San Francisco, CA 94163-2921 Dr. Chandler gave me a call today. We probably talked for 20 or 30 minutes. I was like a kid in a candy store. Here was a man who really knew the history of the times and exactly what role Wells Fargo played in that story. I took notes. Came away from that conversation with a bit more knowledge than I started it with. Lucky day for me. ----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- ---------------------- ---------------------------------------- Just some of the exchanges on this matter. There are even more reasons to support this being a false story. Joe

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In order for your argument to carry any weight, you will first have to demonstrate that the Mints records were stored off site because, as you must know, the San Francisco Mint was one of the few buildings that survived 1906 fire relatively unscathed.

So, if you have done the research, where exactly were the records kept?

"The explosions of the stones in our walls grew fainter, and finally we heard no more of them. The flames ceased their efforts to find entrance to our stronghold through the windows, but the heat reflected from the mass of red hot ruins to the north of us was almost unbearable: we could not see what the situation was outside, or tell just what other or further experience was in store for us. However, we began to feel that the fight was nearly won and that, after all, we were going to save the building. We were now able to keep the interiors of the rooms which were most threatened wet down by the bucket men, so I sent the men with the hose to extinguish the roof fire, which was quickly done. In a half hour or so our defensive work was over. I now bad time to take some observations, and made a trip over the building for that purpose. I found that the building had not been seriously injured, and that with careful watching and preventing the lodgment of cinders, there would be no further danger of the mint being destroyed. The fight was won. The mint was saved."


Photograph of the San Francisco Mint just after the fire.

http://www.sfmuseum.net/1906.2/ew22.html

 

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[cactusjumper]

Hal,

Phoenix was my first call. The lady historian there gave me Dr. Chandler's contact information and told me he was the best person for such information.

While the mint building was saved in San Francisco, there is nothing said of the contents.

I did my research around eight-years ago. A lot of water under the bridge since that time. I really have no desire to do the research over again. I was convinced that the story was fiction back then, and have seen nothing to change that.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Cactusjumper,
Not sure why you deleted that post. You did exactly what should have been done regarding the story and you spoke to the correct people. But, you are arguing that the story is a hoax and ignoring the possibility that it could have some truth to it. I am simply trying to understand how it could happen, if it did happen. The San Francisco Mint may have lost records in the 1906 fire if they were stored off site or perhaps by water. That will have to be established.

What we need is the original source of the story in original form. Then, we can pick and pull at it.


About the building and it's condition after the fire...

"The Mint's production of coins was uninterrupted for 32 years, until the disastrous earthquake of 1906. Because the gas works were partially destroyed, operations stopped temporarily. But the beautiful, solidly constructed Mint building survived both the earthquake and the ensuing firestorm. In fact, the Mint was the only financial institution capable of operating immediately after the disaster and became the treasury for disaster relief funds, performing other emergency banking services as well. Coining operations resumed soon afterward and continued in this building until 1937, when Mint workers moved to a larger, more modern facility, the present United States Mint at San Francisco."

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I tried to edit the post, additional information, and when I tried to save it nothing happened. Ended up loosing the post, which I had copied. Computers!

Anything is possible, just wonder how those records were available and then not.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hal - Cactusjumper Joe was convinced that the TERRY set of two sentences were fiction years ago, and is not willing to look at the idea that TERRY was simply compiling all the stories, articles, legends he could find and in many cases you can find details which are erroneous and yet the basic points be correct. He is also ignoring that Higham's private letter refers to Waltz receipts for a very similar amount, that Higham states convinced the Petrasch boys to continue the search after they became discouraged.

There was no US Mint in Sacramento, and Dr Chandler stated there were NO records from Wells Fargo Express for the time period TERRY states. For Joe that settles the whole thing beyond all dispute or evidence to the contrary. I spent a lot of words and time to try to show him that indeed Wells Fargo was doing business in Arizona during the time period when Waltz COULD have been hauling out ore (1868-1890) and that Wells Fargo Express was even shipping ORES as was so proudly proclaimed in an AZ newspaper that dates to the TERRY time period. He then sarcastically "agreed" that "Walz" had shipped the gold to the "US Mint in Sacramento" which was NEVER WHAT THE POINT WAS.

I too have a lot of respect for other researchers, but have found that even the best of them can not find everything. As an example, I talked to the "top" researcher in the Custer topic and found two points of history that he had not, and had told me no such records existed, yet I found proof of both. Joe wants to argue the TERRY set of two sentences absolutely verbatim, not as what they are, which is that he repeated a story he found somewhere that clearly has some erroneous info in it yet COULD be true in the sense of "records" (receipts, as stated by Higham) could still exist, that showed that Waltz had shipped a large dollar value in gold (ore probably) to California or elsewhere (Higham does not state, could have been NY or Germany or Australia for that matter) or even to Sacramento to an assayer who then refined the gold and sold it to the US Mint. So yes Joe is absolutely right, TERRY has erroneous info in those TWO sentences. That proves the whole thing false for Joe, there are no other possibilities. I could not disagree more, but as you can see have wasted plenty of words and time trying.

If we look at some of the other info we have, like the assay at $110,000 per ton, then $250,000 amounts to just over two tons. A candle box full of that kind of ore weighed something like forty four or forty eight pounds, and is probably the size/weight of a shipment that a prospector would ship, if the ore were rich. No prospector would pay the freight on ore that had only a half ounce per ton, although such ore could make a miner rich if the extraction were done on site. That small amount of ore, two and a half tons, would also dovetail very well with the description of Waltz's mine as not more than a dozen feet deep and an entrance no larger than a barrel. I suppose we should just write that off to coincidences.

IMHO the best route of research to locate any surviving shipping RECEIPTS from Waltz via Wells Fargo, is going to be to hunt down the papers of the Petrasch brothers, as Higham specifically stated they saw them. They may have seen them in someone else's possession (Julia Thomas?) but I think if there were any hope of finding them, it will be via that angle. Of course if they were found and produced for the public tomorrow, I have no doubt that we would immediately have people screaming fake, hoax etc.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Don't know how many ways I can say it. The story could be true, but I just don't believe it is. Doesn't make me a bad guy, just someone who is unconvinced. It's true that I doubted the story from the git-go, much in the same way I doubted the Frank Alkire story when I first heard it, but Dr. Chandler definitely solidified that belief.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal - Cactusjumper Joe was convinced that the TERRY set of two sentences were fiction years ago, and is not willing to look at the idea that TERRY was simply compiling all the stories, articles, legends he could find and in many cases you can find details which are erroneous and yet the basic points be correct. He is also ignoring that Higham's private letter refers to Waltz receipts for a very similar amount, that Higham states convinced the Petrasch boys to continue the search after they became discouraged.

There was no US Mint in Sacramento, and Dr Chandler stated there were NO records from Wells Fargo Express for the time period TERRY states. For Joe that settles the whole thing beyond all dispute or evidence to the contrary. I spent a lot of words and time to try to show him that indeed Wells Fargo was doing business in Arizona during the time period when Waltz COULD have been hauling out ore (1868-1890) and that Wells Fargo Express was even shipping ORES as was so proudly proclaimed in an AZ newspaper that dates to the TERRY time period. He then sarcastically "agreed" that "Walz" had shipped the gold to the "US Mint in Sacramento" which was NEVER WHAT THE POINT WAS.

I too have a lot of respect for other researchers, but have found that even the best of them can not find everything. As an example, I talked to the "top" researcher in the Custer topic and found two points of history that he had not, and had told me no such records existed, yet I found proof of both. Joe wants to argue the TERRY set of two sentences absolutely verbatim, not as what they are, which is that he repeated a story he found somewhere that clearly has some erroneous info in it yet COULD be true in the sense of "records" (receipts, as stated by Higham) could still exist, that showed that Waltz had shipped a large dollar value in gold (ore probably) to California or elsewhere (Higham does not state, could have been NY or Germany or Australia for that matter) or even to Sacramento to an assayer who then refined the gold and sold it to the US Mint. So yes Joe is absolutely right, TERRY has erroneous info in those TWO sentences. That proves the whole thing false for Joe, there are no other possibilities. I could not disagree more, but as you can see have wasted plenty of words and time trying.

If we look at some of the other info we have, like the assay at $110,000 per ton, then $250,000 amounts to just over two tons. A candle box full of that kind of ore weighed something like forty four or forty eight pounds, and is probably the size/weight of a shipment that a prospector would ship, if the ore were rich. No prospector would pay the freight on ore that had only a half ounce per ton, although such ore could make a miner rich if the extraction were done on site. That small amount of ore, two and a half tons, would also dovetail very well with the description of Waltz's mine as not more than a dozen feet deep and an entrance no larger than a barrel. I suppose we should just write that off to coincidences.

IMHO the best route of research to locate any surviving shipping RECEIPTS from Waltz via Wells Fargo, is going to be to hunt down the papers of the Petrasch brothers, as Higham specifically stated they saw them. They may have seen them in someone else's possession (Julia Thomas?) but I think if there were any hope of finding them, it will be via that angle. Of course if they were found and produced for the public tomorrow, I have no doubt that we would immediately have people screaming fake, hoax etc.

Oroblanco

You don't know until ya know. Charles at the San Francisco National archives informed me that the records of the US Mint San Francisco are in their collection. So, their complete loss/destruction is inaccurate. At least partially. I will send the specific request tonight and see what comes back.

Do you know who inherited Herman P's things after he passed? Was it Mr. Worst?

If it happened, we might find a record of Waltz shipping gold from Phoenix here:

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, what's with the Elmer Keith thingie ? He was one of my favorite teachers when I was in the Border Patrol

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Many people familiar with firearms know who Elmer Keith is. He has done many articles, especially on wildcat loads. He wrote a book named "Hell I Was There". That phrase seems to apply to many of the LDM stories.

Lucky you!

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

"You don't know until ya know. Charles at the San Francisco National archives informed me that the records of the US Mint San Francisco are in their collection. So, their complete loss/destruction is inaccurate. At least partially. I will send the specific request tonight and see what comes back."

I don't believe I ever stated that the US Mint in San Francisco lost there records. Dr. Chandler and I discussed the WELLS FARGO records, only. One of the problems he mentioned, was that the names of the original owners of gold shipped would only be recorded from the office where it was shipped from. Someone like Jacob Waltz would not show up on Wells Fargo records, even if they ever existed.

Going from a very sharp memory here......I think.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Don Jose,

Many people familiar with firearms know who Elmer Keith is. He has done many articles, especially on wildcat loads. He wrote a book named "Hell I Was There". That phrase seems to apply to many of the LDM stories.

Lucky you!

Take care,

Joe

elmer keith was a hell of a man in the shooting world.....he is responsible for the development of the 357 , 41 .and 44 magnum cartridge...he also wrote for all the gun magazines for many years

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

"You don't know until ya know. Charles at the San Francisco National archives informed me that the records of the US Mint San Francisco are in their collection. So, their complete loss/destruction is inaccurate. At least partially. I will send the specific request tonight and see what comes back."

I don't believe I ever stated that the US Mint in San Francisco lost there records. Dr. Chandler and I discussed the WELLS FARGO records, only. One of the problems he mentioned, was that the names of the original owners of gold shipped would only be recorded from the office where it was shipped from. Someone like Jacob Waltz would not show up on Wells Fargo records, even if they ever existed.

Going from a very sharp memory here......I think.

Take care,

Joe

"recorded from the office it was shipped from". So, why would we be looking in San Francisco for a Wells Fargo record of a shipment from Arizona? That makes little sense to me especially if it was delivered to the mint. You suggested that the WF records were destroyed by the fire of 1906 and because of this no record from 1880-91 is available. But you state that if it did exist, it would be found in the office from where it was shipped. That could be Phoenix, Florence, Tucson, or any other convenient WF office.

According to WF, local records were discarded periodically and no effort made to retain them. But some records do exist. And the SFmint records are there for the viewing. So, I am not sure that all the necessary "research" was done. Started perhaps.

 

[Cubfan64]

Do you know who inherited Herman P's things after he passed? Was it Mr. Worst?

I've never heard any rumors or rumblings of where any of Herman and/or Rhiney's things may have ended up after they passed away. I doubt very much whether Clay Worst would have gotten them as Clay has been a strong supporter of the Holmes storyline and from what I know, the Holmes and Thomas/Petrasch sides did not mix.

My first guess as to who has/had anything of Herman's would be the Martin family, but whether there was anything of value or where it might be now I've never heard mentioned. Hopefully someone else in the know might have some insight.

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa wrote

Joe, what's with the Elmer Keith thingie ? He was one of my favorite teachers when I was in the Border Patrol

and Cactusjumper replied

Don Jose,
Many people familiar with firearms know who Elmer Keith is. He has done many articles, especially on wildcat loads. He wrote a book named "Hell I Was There". That phrase seems to apply to many of the LDM stories.
Lucky you!
Take care,
Joe
　
　
　
　
" Hell, I was there!" Elmer Keith

In other words, a jab at all LDM stories as false, by implying they should be classed the same as the stories of Elmer Keith. Another fellow raised quite a controversy by saying much the same thing, only to be now known to have been telling the truth - Frank/August Finkel.

Doubtless some recollections are inaccurate or even blatantly false. This hardly means that all should be viewed the same way, though some people do.

Hal Croves wrote

Do you know who inherited Herman P's things after he passed? Was it Mr. Worst?

No I sure don't, sorry; I see that Cubfan has a possible lead though should someone care to look further.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Real de Tayopa wrote


and Cactusjumper replied



In other words, a jab at all LDM stories as false, by implying they should be classed the same as the stories of Elmer Keith. Another fellow raised quite a controversy by saying much the same thing, only to be now known to have been telling the truth - Frank/August Finkel.

Doubtless some recollections are inaccurate or even blatantly false. This hardly means that all should be viewed the same way, though some people do.

Hal Croves wrote


No I sure don't, sorry; I see that Cubfan has a possible lead though should someone care to look further.
Oroblanco
[/SIZE]

Roy,

Did I say all? I am only voicing my opinion....same as you. If you are going to attack my opinion, at least quote me correctly. You are way over the line here.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Did I say all? I am only voicing my opinion....same as you. If you are going to attack my opinion, at least quote me correctly. You are way over the line here.

Take care,

Joe

Over the line? The Elmer Keith quote does not separate SOME stories does it? The implication is pretty obvious, although you qualified the relationship to LDM stories as "many" that quote, placed prominently in bold red ink, is not implying that SOME are truthful is it? How is that an attack on you, to point out that your emphatic quotation, placed for all to see, is probably intended to be dismissive of anything in the way of LDM lore which is being discussed. I did not ask you to remove it, change it or anything else, any more than I would expect someone to insist that I remove the quotes I use as tag lines. It does say something about your inclination, to view all LDM info as probably false unless proven true. That is a normal and accepted methodology of science, not uncommon, just perhaps not the way to approach treasure LEGENDS. I think that approach to most treasure legends would lead you to not be a treasure hunter, for the types of evidence are not on the level of 'science'.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions, though I expect the same consideration in return. It took me some time to realize how inflexible opinions can be.

Oroblanco

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
It does say something about your inclination, to view all LDM info as probably false unless proven true. That is a normal and accepted methodology of science, not uncommon, just perhaps not the way to approach treasure LEGENDS. I think that approach to most treasure legends would lead you to not be a treasure hunter, for the types of evidence are not on the level of 'science'.

This is good advice. If a curious seeker uses a fact-based approach to a treasure legend, it will likely save him much time and effort that might otherwise be wasted on unfounded rumors. A rational treasure hunter works with verifiable evidence and will move on if facts aren't available. Others simply enjoy the folklore.

 

[Oroblanco]

This is good advice. If a curious seeker uses a fact-based approach to a treasure legend, it will likely save him much time and effort that might otherwise be wasted on unfounded rumors. A rational treasure hunter works with verifiable evidence and will move on if facts aren't available. Others simply enjoy the folklore.

Yes for SOME treasure hunters whom wish to stick to ONLY the verifiable evidence, and of course then you have a mighty short list of treasures to hunt. Worse, you are throwing out many, many possibilities simply because you can not verify pieces of the evidence.

By the scientific method, Goler's lost diggings would never have been found. The only "evidence" was that a guy named Goler had some nice gold nuggets and a story, and was missing his rifle. Not one other piece of solid evidence than a STORY from a desert rat type prospector. Yet it proved to be one of the richest gold placers of the area.

Then there is the lost Mojave mine - this one originates from (shudder, horrors) an Indian tale! Yep an old Mojave Indian chief was seen trading gold for goods, and someone trailed him back to the mine. The Indians had a story that the mine was found and first worked by the padres whom they killed in a rebellion, but occasionally the chief would sneak out to get some gold for trading. Now the mine is played out, like many did and many will, but it sure paid off for the guy who was willing to try following an Indian based on just the thinnest of evidence. The Silver King started out as a story and a piece of ore shown around by a soldier, not one document or assay or anything to verify, yet it was found by men willing to search based on this story. I don't think they ever even met the soldier (Johnson) or saw his black silver ore.

One thing I learned at the academy (for corrections officers) is that even in lies, some truth may be hidden. Convicts are notorious liars, every one in prison will tell you he is innocent, and yet in their lies, by doing a little 'digging' you may find truths. With most of these treasure LEGENDS we have basically a story or stories, often with contradictions and unverifiable evidence, yet in a great many cases, the legends are based on reality. Facts get distorted, clues get garbled (at times deliberately) and worst of all the mixing of different, unrelated stories, and we have a lost mine legend that has lasted for over a century, or for several centuries in some cases. It has become unsolvable because it is a hybrid of stories, mixed landmarks and clues that can not work because that never existed.

Of course you are welcome to stick to the scientific method, and I really do wish you luck, hope you find millions. I must respectfully disagree on your definition of a "rational" treasure hunter being one whom sticks to that verifiable evidence, there is nothing irrational about searching out the truth even of an old Indian story even if that means hiking the mountains and digging to find out.


To Cactusjumper Joe - if that earlier post seemed like a personal attack, my apologies, it was not intended as a personal attack or even an attack at all. I can delete it without any regrets.


Oroblanco

 

[Hal Croves]

Yes for SOME treasure hunters whom wish to stick to ONLY the verifiable evidence, and of course then you have a mighty short list of treasures to hunt. Worse, you are throwing out many, many possibilities simply because you can not verify pieces of the evidence.

By the scientific method, Goler's lost diggings would never have been found. The only "evidence" was that a guy named Goler had some nice gold nuggets and a story, and was missing his rifle. Not one other piece of solid evidence than a STORY from a desert rat type prospector. Yet it proved to be one of the richest gold placers of the area.

Then there is the lost Mojave mine - this one originates from (shudder, horrors) an Indian tale! Yep an old Mojave Indian chief was seen trading gold for goods, and someone trailed him back to the mine. The Indians had a story that the mine was found and first worked by the padres whom they killed in a rebellion, but occasionally the chief would sneak out to get some gold for trading. Now the mine is played out, like many did and many will, but it sure paid off for the guy who was willing to try following an Indian based on just the thinnest of evidence. The Silver King started out as a story and a piece of ore shown around by a soldier, not one document or assay or anything to verify, yet it was found by men willing to search based on this story. I don't think they ever even met the soldier (Johnson) or saw his black silver ore.

One thing I learned at the academy (for corrections officers) is that even in lies, some truth may be hidden. Convicts are notorious liars, every one in prison will tell you he is innocent, and yet in their lies, by doing a little 'digging' you may find truths. With most of these treasure LEGENDS we have basically a story or stories, often with contradictions and unverifiable evidence, yet in a great many cases, the legends are based on reality. Facts get distorted, clues get garbled (at times deliberately) and worst of all the mixing of different, unrelated stories, and we have a lost mine legend that has lasted for over a century, or for several centuries in some cases. It has become unsolvable because it is a hybrid of stories, mixed landmarks and clues that can not work because that never existed.

Of course you are welcome to stick to the scientific method, and I really do wish you luck, hope you find millions. I must respectfully disagree on your definition of a "rational" treasure hunter being one whom sticks to that verifiable evidence, there is nothing irrational about searching out the truth even of an old Indian story even if that means hiking the mountains and digging to find out.


To Cactusjumper Joe - if that earlier post seemed like a personal attack, my apologies, it was not intended as a personal attack or even an attack at all. I can delete it without any regrets.


Oroblanco

Brilliant.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Accepted and the same apology to you.

I have never dismissed any clue, out of hand, and have always said there is nothing positive in doing that. On the other hand, I don't feel that one opinion defines me or paints the entire picture of my character.

We will always be friends.

Take care,

Joe