Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Oroblanco]

Last bit for the night and will sign off.

On the idea that a closed mine makes it impossible to get ore samples from it, I have a piece of Crown King ore (aka Crowned King mine) and that mine closed up shop in 1899. I just got a piece of Homestake ore a few weeks ago, and that mine has been closed up since 2002. I mentioned the Crown King mine for another reason too, because they hit some spectacularly rich ore in that mine at the 500 foot level, early in the last year the mine operated. The ore assayed at $180,000 per ton (1899 prices! Over 8700 ounces per ton!) and was bagged up and put under guard because it was so rich. So the LDM ore is not SO rich as to be unbelievable or just a tiny pocket, ore as rich or even more have been found in other mines including in Arizona.

I will leave you with virtual coffee, may not be on for a day or two so I wish you good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, ya posted ----> Answer my question first. Or do you think the mine is near a mountain top?


Nope, it is part way up. it is a shaft not an adit.on an northenr trend range with the military trail below.

 

[Not Peralta]

To All,
have some , Its good for thought.
There' nothing wrong with people believing in what they want to,Like lost mines and treasures that do not have a lot of real facts,
but, a lot of circumstantial evidence,which gives the story just enough to make it a curiosity,and challenge.people on TN trying to
solve the lost Dutchman mine story are trying to solve a long held mystery,and they have been doing this for many, many years.
Its always healthy to have what could become a profitable hobby.Every day these people research or search can bring them one step
closer to their goal,In their opinion.And no one really has the right to question some ones opinion on anything,only the subject at hand
you may disagree,but,that's healthy too, because you can always agree to disagree. always be respectful.NP

 

[markmar]

Oro, ya posted ----> Answer my question first. Or do you think the mine is near a mountain top?


Nope, it is part way up. it is a shaft not an adit.on an northenr trend range with the military trail below.

Don Jose

A view to the LDM region from NE . You can see in the picture : in the red circle the Casa Caverna , in the blue circle the face from the Perfil map ( reversed ), in the green circle the arch/tunnel and with yellow is the mine region .
The Military trail is not close but also not so far . About an hour hike .

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose

A view to the LDM region from NE . You can see in the picture : in the red circle the Casa Caverna , in the blue circle the face from the Perfil map ( reversed ), in the green circle the arch/tunnel and with yellow is the mine region .
The Military trail is not close but also not so far . About an hour hike .

View attachment 1161268 View attachment 1161274

I think I know where this spot is, have you hiked in there amigo? If it is the place I think it is, that is REALLY steep and dicey.

Don Jose el Tropical Tramp wrote

Nope, it is part way up. it is a shaft not an adit.on an northenr trend range with the military trail below.

Where does that information originate? There is no mention of that in the Pioneer Interviews. Might that info not relate to the Peralta/Ludy story, rather than Waltz?

:coffee2

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd evening Marius: It is claimed that the Dutchman said that you can see the miltary trail from my mine but you can't see my mine from the trail, also that you can ride a horse over my mine and not see it. etc. indicating a covered shaft.

 

[markmar]

I think I know where this spot is, have you hiked in there amigo? If it is the place I think it is, that is REALLY steep and dicey.

Don Jose el Tropical Tramp wrote


Where does that information originate? There is no mention of that in the Pioneer Interviews. Might that info not relate to the Peralta/Ludy story, rather than Waltz?

:coffee2

Oro

If you know where the place is , good for you . Follow your intuition . Think positive .

 

[markmar]

G'd evening Marius: It is claimed that the Dutchman said that you can see the miltary trail from my mine but you can't see my mine from the trail, also that you can ride a horse over my mine and not see it. etc. indicating a covered shaft.

Of course you can see the Military trail from the mine . Don't forget how John Reed uncovered again the shaft in 1888 , and maybe now to be partially covered .

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro

If you know where the place is , good for you . Follow your intuition . Think positive .

IF I knew exactly where the mine is located, do you think I would post it on here? Or would I keep looking for it? I was just making an observation about a spot that you had posted (earlier) as the place where the Lost Dutchman's mine is located, and IF it is the place I think it is, that is a horrible spot to get in to. Safety first as they say - a lot more people read what we say in these forums than post, would not want someone to break a leg (or worse) trying to get in to a spot posted on the forum. I am not even sure the place I am thinking your photo fits, is the right place. Without saying the exact location, is that place in the northern half of the mountains or the southern half?

On those clues (posted above) in my opinion, I don't think we should put too much reliance on them. Especially when we don't know where some of them came from. After the mine is found, then it will be possible to sort out which clues were correct and which did not relate to the Lost Dutchman's mine. I believe that most of the clues really relate to the Peralta/Ludy mine, and not to the mine of Jacob Waltz. The stories got mixed and so did the clues. Look at the clues from the Joe Deering mine, as an example, like the "trick in the trail" and having to go through a hole, the mine is high up yet you have to go down to get into it etc. Deering's mine is very unlikely to be the same as the one of Jacob Waltz, since he found it (and left it) uncovered, open to the sky. One thing that is pointed out concerning Waltz's mine, is that he concealed it very well. So should we be using Deering's clues, to find the Lost Dutchman's mine? I don't think so. Likewise for the Doc Thorne mine, or Apache Jack's black quartz ledge, or Wagoner's or the Soldiers mine. If we mix together the clues from different mines, no one can find the mine because they are working from deeply flawed information.

By the same token, I would not throw out all those clues, maps etc just set them on the 'maybe' shelf. IF some landmark should then seem to match from the 'maybe' pile, perhaps it may help locate the mine.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[markmar]

Oro

One of the clues from the last picture , " tell " you in what part of the mountains is the mine from my theory . But I could be wrong .

 

[Hal Croves]

Here is a piece announcing that another express company had better expand operations into Arizona, because Wells Fargo is already planning to:
View attachment 1160048
from the Weekly Arizona Miner, 7-3-1869

I contend that Wells Fargo was indeed handling express shipments out of Arizona territory, during the time period when Jacob Waltz was supposed to have discovered his famous mine. I don't know how much proof is required to establish this.

Oro,
Actually, Wells Fargo was already operating in Prescott as early as 1867, perhaps even a little earlier. And while official records may have been destroyed, many of their precious metal shipments are recorded in period papers. WF shipped to ALL points in the United States from its hub in the territory as early as 69' (advertisement).

Now, some may make the argument that there was no official Wells Fargo Express office in various locations throughout the territory, that is true for some locations however, the WF service was there and chasing/absorbing the competition.

Any argument otherwise is nonsense.

While Sacramento was not the location of a US mint, it was a WF connection for San Francisco. I am not sure that the mint accepted unprocessed ores. Most shipments to the San Francisco mint seem to have been bullion for processing into coin.

 

[cactusjumper]

Well boys, I will let the senior research historian for Wells Fargo Bank, Dr. Robert Chandler, know that he needs to find another career. Perhaps you should consider writing your own books on the companies history in Arizona. "There are
no records for that period, from Arizona" could mean that the records that show $250,000 in receipts for "Jacob Walz"
may be a figment of someone's imagination.

Wells Fargo did do business in Arizona. If I said otherwise, I misspoke (miss-wrote). The period in question here is 1881-1889, and (perhaps) all of the "Walz" gold shipment receipts had to survive. None have survived to date, to anyone's certain knowledge.

My own research into Wells Fargo history goes well beyond this particular question, but what is being read into my statements makes them seem "nonsense", even to me.

Please continue my education.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Well boys, I will let the senior research historian for Wells Fargo Bank, Dr. Robert Chandler, know that he needs to find another career. Perhaps you should consider writing your own books on the companies history in Arizona. "There are
no records for that period, from Arizona" could mean that the records that show $250,000 in receipts for "Jacob Walz"
may be a figment of someone's imagination.

Wells Fargo did do business in Arizona. If I said otherwise, I misspoke (miss-wrote). The period in question here is 1881-1889, and (perhaps) all of the "Walz" gold shipment receipts had to survive. None have survived to date, to anyone's certain knowledge.

My own research into Wells Fargo history goes well beyond this particular question, but what is being read into my statements makes them seem "nonsense", even to me.

Please continue my education.

Joe Ribaudo

Sometimes your posts are less direct than you may think. Clarifying a fact, in this case that Wells Fargo did business in the territory during Walt's lifetime, is something most people here can appreciate.

If you believe that the date of the alleged shipment (1881-1889) was selected by the story teller because no records for that period exists, hence no way to confirm the story, why not simply say so. You may be correct and even better still, understood. The person who told that story would obviously had to have known that there were no records. How do you explain that?

I would think that you would be more interested in the shipping of ore as opposed to bullion. If Waltz shipped bullion, and that is a big if, who did the processing?

Anyway, some insight into the volume of WF business in 1889.
No ore.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

You wrote:

"If you believe that the date of the alleged shipment (1881-1889) was selected by the story teller because no records for that period exists, hence no way to confirm the story, why not simply say so. You may be correct and even better still, understood. The person who told that story would obviously had to have known that there were no records. How do you explain that?"

As I said, "what is being read into my statements". The above quote is a good example. I did not say I believe any of what you wrote. Thus......I can't explain your understanding of what I did write.

Terry wrote a prolific amount of treasure tales. He did not test for truthfulness of the stories in many cases. The portion concerning Jacob Waltz and the LDM is a perfect example. He was simply repeating the rumors of the time from what others told him, or what he may have read.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

Hal Croves,Have some has anyone checked to see if any coaches during waltz's time period were robbed around the area, there is in fact, a disassembled coach in a wash above the massacre grounds,
back in the 70's a couple of the wheel frames, a door,and lots of rotten tack still existed.NP

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

You wrote:

"If you believe that the date of the alleged shipment (1881-1889) was selected by the story teller because no records for that period exists, hence no way to confirm the story, why not simply say so. You may be correct and even better still, understood. The person who told that story would obviously had to have known that there were no records. How do you explain that?"

As I said, "what is being read into my statements". The above quote is a good example. I did not say I believe any of what you wrote. Thus......I can't explain your understanding of what I did write.

Terry wrote a prolific amount of treasure tales. He did not test for truthfulness of the stories in many cases. The portion concerning Jacob Waltz and the LDM is a perfect example. He was simply repeating the rumors of the time from what others told him, or what he may have read.

Take care,

Joe

We are reading what you wrote and understanding it as best we can which is not easy sometimes. Specifically, who's imagination are you describing? Sorry, it just seems that your swaying in the wind sometimes.

Funny that you are looking for or expecting truthfulness in treasure "tales".
You romantic.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal Croves,Have some has anyone checked to see if any coaches during waltz's time period were robbed around the area, there is in fact, a disassembled coach in a wash above the massacre grounds,
back in the 70's a couple of the wheel frames, a door,and lots of rotten tack still existed.NP

"In 1858, Wells Fargo helped finance the nation’s first long-distance stage line, carrying passengers and mail from Missouri to California. Coaches of the Overland Mail Company (often called the Butterfield Line after company president John Butterfield) crossed Arizona on a three-week journey between the Pacific and Eastern states. Stages stopped at Tucson, a major station on the line.


All across Arizona, Wells Fargo stagecoaches provided regular mail service and transportation to remote towns and mining camps. Wells Fargo agents in Tucson, Tombstone, Benson, Willcox, Nogales and more than a hundred other southern Arizona towns delivered the convenient, reliable service that made Wells Fargo’s strong reputation."

WF

Its the wooden green box that belonged to Wells Fargo. Sometimes carried on nonWF coaches where service had not yet been established or was too expensive to operate without partner. Plenty of stage coach robberies. None that involved a missing coach that I have read. Throw down the box was last heard in 1909.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

While Wells Fargo had offices and provided services to its customers, they did not run there own equipment in Arizona, in that time period. Thus Wells Fargo was using the Butterfield and other stage and freight companies to do its business. They were acting as shipping agents.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

While Wells Fargo had offices and provided services to its customers, they did not run there own equipment in Arizona, in that time period. Thus Wells Fargo was using the Butterfield and other stage and freight companies to do its business. They were acting as shipping agents.

Take care,

Joe

Wells Fargo opened its office at Central & Washington in 1878. George Loring was the agent and the office was part of his Loring's Bazar. The office changed location several times in the period we are talking about. Typically, there would be an assayers office attached to the WF location however, because Phoenix shipped so little gold, one was not established. At least not when Loring was the agent.

If Waltz's shipped anything it was not ore, this confirmed by WF. It would be crude bullion, dust, or coin, but not ore and if it were going to Sacramento or San Francisco, it would have been sent stage to Maricopa or Tucson, rail to a port, then shipped by sea to San Francisco.

Also the WF historian you mentioned is retired now some five years. You may want to reach out to the new historian and ask once again about records. While records were discarded regularly, there is not one single event that claimed all the Phoenix records from 1880- 1890. Many were lost that's for certain but some things survive.

A second look might be worth the time.

Madison Larken(?) was the WF Phoenix representative.
About MADISON: http://blogs.wellsfargo.com/guidedbyhistory/2009/09/who-was-madison-larkin/

Photographs by Brad Hall.

Romantics will enjoy this: http://www.azhistcemeteries.org/Loring.htm

The best read on related WF history: Wells Fargo in Arizona Territory
http://www.bookhuntersholiday.com/si/140.html

 

[cactusjumper]

Here is something I wrote back around 2007:

[TD="width: 100%"] From: Joe Ribaudo Date: 7/9/2008 10:37:18 AM
Subject: WELLS FARGO/WALTZ


[/TD]

[TD="width: 100%"]I, along with many others have done a bit of research into this subject. Here is some of the results that have been found:

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Quote:
"The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the US Mint at Sacramento show that $254,000 in gold was shipped by Walz between 1881-1889. The records cannot be denied."

This is an quote from United States Treasure Atlas, Volume 1, Thomas P. Terry PP 59.

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That statement has made the rounds in Dutch Hunting circles for many years before Thomas Terry came along. It has probably been checked out many more times than it has been quoted in a book.

Your first clue should have been when he said: "The still existing records of Wells Fargo and the Us Mint at Sacramento...." First of all, there has never been a U.S. Mint in Sacramento.....that I know of. Next, is the fact that the records he speaks of for Wells Fargo in San Francisco, don't exist. They were destroyed in the Great San Francisco Fire of 1906.

If Terry had taken the time to check his story......like all of the top LDM researchers have, he would have found the same thing they did. That would be zero, nada, zilch. I would be willing to list the authors who have checked out this same exact story.

In this case, using Terry for a source is a total waste of time.

Many researchers have investigated the story of Waltz's ore shipments. When it comes to the LDM, I doubt each and every writer........all of them.

One of the researchers who looked into this part of the legend, was Glenn Magill. These statements can be found on pages 60 and 61 of "The Killer Mountains":

"More frustrating still were his attempts to track down Waltz's ore shipments. According to legend, Waltz and his partner, Jacob Wiser, had shipped more than a quarter of a million dollars' worth of gold to the San Francisco Mint from various points in Arizona Territory, including Phoenix, Florence, Casa Grande, and Pinal.
An even dozen letters were necessary before Magill learned that the appropriate United States Mint ledgers were now stored in the San Francisco Center of the National Archives.
An equal number were necessary before permission was obtained for a San Francisco friend to search them.
The search netted nothing. Except for the names of a few individual ore buyers and some large mines such as the Silver King, shipments were listed mostly under the names of banks, businesses and stage companies. In Waltz's time, when a man cashed in his gold, the common practice was to sell it to an ore buyer or to a stage line, in this case Wells Fargo.
An inquiry to the History Room of Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco brought the information that the old stage records no longer existed."........Destroyed by the 1906 fire?

For anyone contemplating a trip to San Francisco, I would suggest that you first read:

"Fools' Gold" by Robert Sikorsky. Page 4 lists "Acknowledgements". On the list is this:

" The Wells Fargo Bank , History Room, San Francisco; University of Heidelberg , Records Division; General Services Administration , National Archives, Federal Records Centers at Denver, San Francisco and Washington, D. C.; United States Mint , Office of the Director, Washington, D. C.; A. L. Flagg Foundation , Phoenix.

While I am not vouching for the veracity of Mr. Sikorsky's "facts", there is no doubt that he at least looked up the locations that would house the records we are discussing and, he states no records were found linking Jacob Waltz to any gold shipments to San Francisco.

On pages 122 and 123, he gives the names of the people he talked to .


That makes two researcher into the legend that, pretty much, come up with the same story. I believe more could be found. Magill was trying to find any evidence that would support the LDM legend. As a Private Detective, I would imagine he did a pretty thorough job of it.

I doubt the truthfulness of Magill and Sikorsky, as well as all of the other books that have been written. You can see that you are in good company here.

The $254,000 ore shipments story has been around a long time. It has been checked out seven ways from Sunday by some of the best LDM researchers in the business. They checked Wells Fargo, the different U.S. Mints and archives and even looked for a U.S. Mint in Sacramento. It has been proven without any basis over and over again.

The last person I asked about it was Dr. Thomas Glover. Same searches, same results. I hold the man's research abilities second to none, and I know some pretty good hands.

I received this, this morning:

Hi, Joe,

Alas, we do not have any records of ore shipments from Arizona. All such remained the property of the shipping office, and have disappeared over the years.

Regards,

Dr. Robert J. Chandler
Senior Research Historian
Historical Services, A0101-106
Wells Fargo Bank
420 Montgomery Street
San Francisco, CA 94163-2921

Dr. Chandler gave me a call today. We probably talked for 20 or 30 minutes. I was like a kid in a candy store. Here was a man who really knew the history of the times and exactly what role Wells Fargo played in that story. I took notes. Came away from that conversation with a bit more knowledge than I started it with. Lucky day for me.
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Just some of the exchanges on this matter. There are even more reasons to support this being a false story.

Joe



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