Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

[Hal Croves]

There was another, younger "Dutchman" who was also a miner. Just curious.

 

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[Not Peralta]

To all
'DITTO' everything that Oroblanco had to say about the SUPES,
I spent many months at a time over the years camping and exploring them, I always kept my eyes open for everything of interest.
I never hunted for the LDM,to me there was not enough evidence to support looking for it, I had other interest. I studied the ancient
trails in the mnts. there is an unknown history about the mnts that has never been written about, I don't want to go off subject here,
but,its good to have discussions about the LDM like Oroblanco is trying to do,we all have different opinions, and can always agree to
disagree . np

 

[hooch]

I agree, I also agree that I like fried chicken.

 

[sdcfia]

The U of A collection almost certainly had samples from Waltz's former claims in the Bradshaws, and their letter stated there were no matches. <cut>

"Almost certainly" ... "no matches"? Please support these allegations with facts.

You asked when you began this thread, "Is there any evidence"? So far ... no, just a good story. You're doing yeoman's work trying to convince the readers (too bad you're not getting paid by the word!), but sometimes it seems more like you're trying to convince yourself.

 

[Oroblanco]

Sdcfia wrote

"Almost certainly" ... "no matches"? Please support these allegations with facts.

Posted previously, see Helen Corbin's book "The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold" pp 231-234, and also pp 30, where she states that Corbin and Kollenborn were shown the letter not merely told of it. The statements you will find there are not "almost certainly" and you can read for yourself. Sworn affidavits of course are "just a good story" for you I suppose.

Sdcfia also wrote

You asked when you began this thread, "Is there any evidence"? So far ... no, just a good story. You're doing yeoman's work trying to convince the readers (too bad you're not getting paid by the word!), but sometimes it seems more like you're trying to convince yourself.

Sorry if the posts have been very long winded. I have found that if I do not explain in detail and many words, it gets MIS-read, misunderstood, and we have fifty posts trying to untangle a mistake. So it is done the LONG way rather than in a short way that surely will get misread by someone.

I have also found that you get a far better discussion by opening it with a question, than by just saying "this is what I say". If you think I am trying to "convince myself" then clearly you are getting the wrong impression. I don't go looking for lost treasures or mines that I am not confident about being real. Sorry that you feel it is just a "good story" but that is your prerogative, if the LDM evidence does not meet your standards then you are certainly welcome to NOT hunt for it - I won't mind.
　

 

[Oroblanco]

There was another, younger "Dutchman" who was also a miner. Just curious.

Thanks for posting the excerpt Hal - may I ask what county that page is listing? Thanks in advance.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro ---------->

 

[markmar]

Don Jose



Clue the altitude .

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro ---------->View attachment 1160650

You DO know I have been yanking your chain compadre. However, your map brings up one of the issues surrounding the LDM legend. Notice the mine marked on your map - it is written in Spanish. This would be perfectly in line for a Mexican or Spanish map. The version of the LDM that I believe is the truth, has NO Mexican or Spanish link. It is not logical that a German-American would draw a map and mark it in Spanish. I do not think that map has anything to do with Waltz.

That said, your map, and several of the others that have been in public circulation for decades, probably DO apply to the Peralta mine story. I just do not buy that the Peralta story (a silver mine, then a gold mine) has anything to do with Waltz other than the setting is in the same mountain range. I believe (and this is OPINION) that the Peralta/Ludi story was already known when Waltz died and people ASSUMED it is the same story as Waltz, due to the 'Dutchman' link, the name "Jacob" etc.


One other thing to consider, but the Pioneer interviews version, was obtained from people who almost certainly had heard of the more popular stories then in circulation. They did not give the same story, and have notable missing parts like the Mexican story altogether. The fact that this version is SO different, and conversely, we have such striking similarities in the Ludi/Peralta story, I believe is evidence of that MIXING of stories referred to.

Of course if you have something that links that map, or any other treasure map, directly to Jacob Waltz, we do have something to discuss. Otherwise that map, and virtually all of the others, probably do not even relate to the Lost Dutchman's gold mine.

Coffee?
:Coffee2:

 

[Cubfan64]

Sdcfia wrote


Posted previously, see Helen Corbin's book "The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold" pp 231-234, and also pp 30, where she states that Corbin and Kollenborn were shown the letter not merely told of it. The statements you will find there are not "almost certainly" and you can read for yourself. Sworn affidavits of course are "just a good story" for you I suppose.

Roy, take a close look at those affidavits again when you get a chance. Despite what Helen says on p 30, nowhere in the affidavits do Bob or Tom swear to seeing that letter/document from the University.

In reality, there's very little Bob and Tom swore to in those affidavits other than that they were told things by an AZ businessman and saw documents pertaining to ore assays and shipping papers.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy, take a close look at those affidavits again when you get a chance. Despite what Helen says on p 30, nowhere in the affidavits do Bob or Tom swear to seeing that letter/document from the University.

In reality, there's very little Bob and Tom swore to in those affidavits other than that they were told things by an AZ businessman and saw documents pertaining to ore assays and shipping papers.

Did you read what I posted? I stated that Helen Corbin said they were shown the letter from U of A. I did not say that they swore to having seen them. The affidavits cover some bare points, which is all that I have pointed out. We can not ask Helen today but I presume she spoke to her own husband. You are free to dismiss the whole part about the U of A letter, the ore collection and comparison if you please. However I stand by the statement that all gold mines have unique ores, and see no reason to doubt that an ore comparison was done. It is a logical thing for the owner of those Waltz specimens to have done, and it is not new technology. If I owned even one piece, I would try to get a comparison done so as to find out if it came from a known mine.

　
All this from the statement about Waltz's gold could have come from one of the three mines he owned in the Bradshaws. According to those affidavits our skeptics don't like, the U of A had specimens from every known mine in AZ. That would include the Big Rebel, the General Grant and Bully Bueno since these mines were known since the 1860s. Of course if someone finds an ore specimen from a known mine (in AZ) that will match the gold ore in the matchbox, then the U of A thing was wrong and we can safely say the LDM is/was that mine.

　
Some people are more comfortable with the belief that no lost mine exists, or that it was long ago found and all cleaned out. The unknown is not a comfortable thing. I can see also that it is very unpopular to support that the Lost Dutchman's gold mine is real and still remains to be found. (Talk about 'ganging up" ha ha) NOT complaining amigos I am joking, from an earlier post in which I was accused of ganging up on someone else, we can disagree and remain friends, and it won't bother me if I am the last guy on Earth that is convinced the LDM is real and has not been found.

More coffee?

 

[Culinary Caveman]

There's more evidence for this one than there is for the Lost Cabin. You either believe or you don't. Do the math and work on the clues.

 

[Oroblanco]

There's more evidence for this one than there is for the Lost Cabin. You either believe or you don't. Do the math and work on the clues.

Agreed! I am always surprised at how many treasure hunters we have here, whom are trying to discourage others from hunting for the LDM. If it never existed or was found and all cleaned out, what harm is there in looking for it? If it was found and all cleaned out, why not let everyone know exactly where it is (or was) so they can go after other lost treasures?

I think I made a mistake in an earlier post too, mentioning the Grose Lode mine as one of Jacob Waltz's claims. I think that one had the name of Jacob WEISS and was thought by some researchers to be Jacob Weiser. But I don't have that document in hand so can't check. Anyway may have that one wrong. The Big Rebel and General Grant are definitely Waltz's claims, proving he was a prospector and successful at that, not just a chicken farmer.

edit - forgot to add that Jacob Waltz listed his occupation on the 1864 Territorial Census as a "Miner", and that he had worked as a miner in California on the San Gabriel river for a man named Ruben Blakney (spelling corrections welcome). He was 60 years old when he filed on the homestead in Phoenix, with a fairly good career as a prospector and miner behind him by that time.

 

[azdave35]

Agreed! I am always surprised at how many treasure hunters we have here, whom are trying to discourage others from hunting for the LDM. If it never existed or was found and all cleaned out, what harm is there in looking for it? If it was found and all cleaned out, why not let everyone know exactly where it is (or was) so they can go after other lost treasures?

I think I made a mistake in an earlier post too, mentioning the Grose Lode mine as one of Jacob Waltz's claims. I think that one had the name of Jacob WEISS and was thought by some researchers to be Jacob Weiser. But I don't have that document in hand so can't check. Anyway may have that one wrong. The Big Rebel and General Grant are definitely Waltz's claims, proving he was a prospector and successful at that, not just a chicken farmer.

edit - forgot to add that Jacob Waltz listed his occupation on the 1864 Territorial Census as a "Miner", and that he had worked as a miner in California on the San Gabriel river for a man named Ruben Blakney (spelling corrections welcome). He was 60 years old when he filed on the homestead in Phoenix, with a fairly good career as a prospector and miner behind him by that time.

roy...i'm not trying to discourage anyone from hunting the ldm...i'm just trying to discourage them from following those stupid clues that have been floating around for 100 years and from wasting their lives trying to figure out those stone maps...i say the mine has already been found..thats my opinion and alot of others also...you keep needling me trying to get me to post on here who found the mine...that aint gonna happen roy.....if he wants to say something he will....i dont post stuff like that on a public forum.....matter of fact i cant believe you dont already know...most folks here do...if you come to the rendezvous and ask a few questions you will find the answers you seek...there are a few on this forum that know

 

[Oroblanco]

roy...i'm not trying to discourage anyone from hunting the ldm...i'm just trying to discourage them from following those stupid clues that have been floating around for 100 years and from wasting their lives trying to figure out those stone maps...i say the mine has already been found..thats my opinion and alot of others also...you keep needling me trying to get me to post on here who found the mine...that aint gonna happen roy.....if he wants to say something he will....i dont post stuff like that on a public forum.....matter of fact i cant believe you dont already know...most folks here do...if you come to the rendezvous and ask a few questions you will find the answers you seek...there are a few on this forum that know

I think I do know exactly whom you are talking about. I have NO doubt that he believes he found the LDM and cleaned it all out. There are several different people who believe they found the LDM and cleaned it all out, and each of them has made a nice chunk of money doing it. One place fits a number of those clues too. I just don't believe they found the LDM, I believe they found a nice pocket of gold in an old silver mine. The clues or most of them apply to the Peralta story, and really should not be linked to Waltz at all. That is what I have been saying. I am not meaning to be needling YOU in particular, for I know of several people here that know the guys involved in these three 'LDM' gold digging deals, and it has been long enough now that there is no danger of prosecution. Heck one of them even hinted at it directly on national TV. "Ha ha" he said to the camera. You know exactly who I am talking about, heck you could drive to his place in probably a half hour. There is nothing for him to fear at this point, and I think it is great he made good - but I don't believe the gold he got, came from the mine of Jacob Waltz. There are signs of gold and silver veins over a lot of ground in those mountains and you know that from putting your own boots on the ground. Most of them are either not rich enough or too small to be worth the bother, but the fact there IS gold there, is a good sign to keep looking. Heck Sarge has been showing people the gold he found in the Superstitions, proving there IS gold to be found, if anyone is willing to go dig for it.

One other thing - when someone goes out hunting for a lost treasure or mine, the fact that he (or she) is out there hunting, gives them a fair chance to find something great. More than one good gold or silver mine has been found by someone looking for a lost mine, and while they did not find the one they were looking for, if you get a nice wad of cash out of it who cares? Dave knows this, but for our readers, when you go out treasure hunting, you never know just what you might find! No one ever found a gold mine while watching TV.

 

[azblackbird]

According to those affidavits our skeptics don't like, the U of A had specimens from every known mine in AZ.

Funny... most of the early Bradshaw mines/claims/prospects were discovered in the 1850's. As you well know many of the "rich" mines and placer claims played out in a relatively short time period. U of A wasn't even a blip on the radar until 1885, and even then the "mineral department" was established until 1892. So given Waltz had claims/mines in the Bradshaws during the mid 1860's, I highly doubt any of his ore samples from any of his mines ever made it to the U of A sample library as it wasn't even a school yet... unless of course the Dutchman was a time traveler also.

 

[azdave35]

I think I do know exactly whom you are talking about. I have NO doubt that he believes he found the LDM and cleaned it all out. There are several different people who believe they found the LDM and cleaned it all out, and each of them has made a nice chunk of money doing it. One place fits a number of those clues too. I just don't believe they found the LDM, I believe they found a nice pocket of gold in an old silver mine. The clues or most of them apply to the Peralta story, and really should not be linked to Waltz at all. That is what I have been saying. I am not meaning to be needling YOU in particular, for I know of several people here that know the guys involved in these three 'LDM' gold digging deals, and it has been long enough now that there is no danger of prosecution. Heck one of them even hinted at it directly on national TV. "Ha ha" he said to the camera. You know exactly who I am talking about, heck you could drive to his place in probably a half hour. There is nothing for him to fear at this point, and I think it is great he made good - but I don't believe the gold he got, came from the mine of Jacob Waltz. There are signs of gold and silver veins over a lot of ground in those mountains and you know that from putting your own boots on the ground. Most of them are either not rich enough or too small to be worth the bother, but the fact there IS gold there, is a good sign to keep looking. Heck Sarge has been showing people the gold he found in the Superstitions, proving there IS gold to be found, if anyone is willing to go dig for it.

One other thing - when someone goes out hunting for a lost treasure or mine, the fact that he (or she) is out there hunting, gives them a fair chance to find something great. More than one good gold or silver mine has been found by someone looking for a lost mine, and while they did not find the one they were looking for, if you get a nice wad of cash out of it who cares? Dave knows this, but for our readers, when you go out treasure hunting, you never know just what you might find! No one ever found a gold mine while watching TV.

exactly my point....there are so many discrepancies in the ldm saga i dont think anyone will ever be able to prove anything....but there are alot of other goodies to find if you get out and look

 

[Oroblanco]

Funny... most of the early Bradshaw mines/claims/prospects were discovered in the 1850's. As you well know many of the "rich" mines and placer claims played out in a relatively short time period. U of A wasn't even a blip on the radar until 1885, and even then the "mineral department" was established until 1892. So given Waltz had claims/mines in the Bradshaws during the mid 1860's, I highly doubt any of his ore samples from any of his mines ever made it to the U of A sample library as it wasn't even a school yet... unless of course the Dutchman was a time traveler also.

Your logic escapes me. I have a couple of ore samples from the Homestake mine, which closed in 2002. How then could I have these samples, unless I am a time traveler?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

AZbb, I don't remember Oro stating that they had mineral specimans at the Universtyfrom the LDM, only that they had specimans from other mines.

I realize that he isn't perfect=== he still thinks that El Naranjal is in either Durango or Sinaloa, he won't admit that it is in Chuahua, but he does a damn fine job otherwise.

 

[Oroblanco]

Gracias for the left handed compliment amigo, I will remember that when I prepare your coffee next time we are in camp.

I keep hearing (reading) these statements about how Waltz's gold ore could have come from his claims in the Bradshaws. That he would haul heavy gold ORE from the mountains to Phoenix, much less to then haul it up into the Superstitions to hide it, does not make any sense to me. Now I don't have ore samples from the claims he had in the Bradshaws to make a comparison. However we do have this, a description of the Big Rebel mine and ore:

　

Walnut Grove District, Arizona
None of the veins are being worked now in this district; no water for past two seasons. Principal mines: Sutler, Blue Jay,. Big Rebel, Josephine, Robinson, and Crescent Lead.
<snip>
3. Big Rebel - Opened by a tunnel; gold-bearing quartz in slate formation; lode 12 feet thick; course of vein, northeast and southwest; assays $37 gold per ton.

from Premiminary Report of a Reconnaisance through Southern and Southeastern Nevada, US Army Corps of Engineers, 1875, page 55 (the chapter is on explorations in Arizona, despite the title)

　
Note the description of the ore - gold bearing quartz in a SLATE formation. There is no trace of any slate visible in the matchbox, nor in the other piece of ore that I have seen. The vein is twelve feet thick too, does that sound like what the stories of the LDM describe? Then what about the assay - $37 in gold per ton - compared to the only assay ever done on the candle box ore, $110,000 per ton. Does that sound like it is the same to you?

You are certainly welcome to believe/disbelieve what ever you wish. If anyone doubts that you can find pockets of gold in a silver mine, I suggest you ask Jack San Felice, one of the owners of the famous Silver King mine. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Providing of course, that you actually get out and look.
Oroblanco