Is There Any Evidence that the Lost Dutchman Mine really exists?

Real de Tayopa wrote
err Oro, the setting sun illuminates the E or W side of a oountan peak


Isn't the mine supposed to be in a north trending canyon, not on a mountain peak?

Hooch wrote
Dude was a hermit with a chicken ranch. End of story


You think it is that simple? I take it you discount that Waltz had mining claims in the Bradshaws before moving to Phoenix? People wear more than one hat over a lifetime.

Not Peralta wrote
The bottom line is, theres just no solid factual evidence.


What do you call that matchbox? Or the gold Waltz sold to save Julia's business? Then there is the gold in the candle box - three witnesses on that one. You are dismissing everything as "no solid factual evidence" as if Waltz never existed.

:coffee2: :coffee:
 
 

Oroblanco, amigo,:coffee2: there are no real facts with this story, only hearsay , its a good story and that's all. how can you or anyone else believe it, when the people that have written
the stories on it for years do not believe it, and they are supposed to be the experts on it ,and the local history.np:cat:
 

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Oroblanco, amigo,:coffee2: there are no real facts with this story, only hearsay , its a good story and that's all. how can you or anyone else believe it, when the people that have written
the stories on it for years do not believe it, and they are supposed to be the experts on it ,and the local history.np:cat:

How could I believe it? Have you read any of what I posted?

Is that really accurate to say that the supposed experts, do not believe it? Tom Kollenborn does not believe in it NOW, but did for decades, and likewise for Bob Corbin. I don't know of any books on the LDM that Bob Corbin wrote on the topic. Brownie Holmes the alleged author of the Holmes manuscript, certainly believed in it, as does Clay Worst. Sims Ely and his partner Jim Bark certainly did. John D. Mitchell did.

Even if you totally discount the LDM story, (and I do NOT) the geology alone is promising for a hidden gold vein or more than one in the Superstitions. The gold you can pan in Pinto creek, Tortilla creek, Fish creek and some other canyons came out of the rock from uphill, and that puts the sources for all that gold in the Superstition mountains. There is also the lost Wagoner rose quartz ledge. There is plenty of reason to be optimistic about going hunting for gold in the Superstitions.

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How could I believe it? Have you read any of what I posted?

Is that really accurate to say that the supposed experts, do not believe it? Tom Kollenborn does not believe in it NOW, but did for decades, and likewise for Bob Corbin. I don't know of any books on the LDM that Bob Corbin wrote on the topic. Brownie Holmes the alleged author of the Holmes manuscript, certainly believed in it, as does Clay Worst. Sims Ely and his partner Jim Bark certainly did. John D. Mitchell did.

Even if you totally discount the LDM story, (and I do NOT) the geology alone is promising for a hidden gold vein or more than one in the Superstitions. The gold you can pan in Pinto creek, Tortilla creek, Fish creek and some other canyons came out of the rock from uphill, and that puts the sources for all that gold in the Superstition mountains. There is also the lost Wagoner rose quartz ledge. There is plenty of reason to be optimistic about going hunting for gold in the Superstitions.

:coffee2: :coffee2:
tom and bob will believe in the ldm until the day they die...regardless of what they say
 

Oroblanco, Listen to what you are saying,how many years has this been going on, I don't know anyone that's been made a rich man hunting for the dutchmans mine,several of the mines that have been
located and worked are not even in the mnts. there is absolutely no solid facts to support this story.
yes, there was a man named Jacob Waltz, he had some gold that he could have gotten any where, most likely from his claim in the bradshaws, and when he sold his claims, other than that there are no
solid facts to support this story. and for whatever reason some will believe it to the day they die. maybe its because they did not have any thing else to believe in.which isn't a bad thing for some. np:cat:
 

There is plenty of reason to be optimistic about going hunting for gold in the Superstitions.
I don't know how much history you've read on AZ, but if I was to prospect for gold on that side of town, I'd probably start in the 4 peaks area. Fortunately there's enough gold left in the Bradshaws to last me a life time of prospecting, so I highly doubt I'll be venturing on that side of town, but for somebody that's a Dutch Hunter, the 4 peaks area is where I'd be looking.
 

Oroblanco, Listen to what you are saying,how many years has this been going on, I don't know anyone that's been made a rich man hunting for the dutchmans mine,several of the mines that have been
located and worked are not even in the mnts. there is absolutely no solid facts to support this story.
yes, there was a man named Jacob Waltz, he had some gold that he could have gotten any where, most likely from his claim in the bradshaws, and when he sold his claims, other than that there are no
solid facts to support this story. and for whatever reason some will believe it to the day they die. maybe its because they did not have any thing else to believe in.which isn't a bad thing for some. np:cat:

If you would join us at one of the annual Dutch hunters rendezvous, you could meet several people whom have gotten rich hunting the LDM, and not from selling treasure books either. I have met several people that have made fortunes in this search, and they believe they have found the LDM.

You say there are no solid facts and in the next breath, admit there is a real man named Jacob Waltz. You and the rest of our skeptics here are certainly free and welcome to disbelieve or believe what ever you prefer, but I still respectfully disagree and contend that what has been presented amounts to enough evidence to warrant a search for the mine. Other lost mines have been found with far less information than we have in the lost Dutchman case, like Goler's diggings for instance. Do you know any hard facts, to that story, prior to it being rediscovered? All there was, was a man named Goler whom had some nice gold nuggets, a great story with danged few landmarks, and a missing Sharps rifle he had left at the mine as a marker. By your standards, no one should ever hunt for that one and yet someone did, and now you can stand in Goler gulch by the spring he found the nuggets in, in the El Paso range, not much gold left as it has mostly been mined out now but they got a LOT of gold out of there.

If you set your standards of proof TOO high, you may as well stick to detecting the city park and beaches or find another way to spend your time. Nothing wrong with that, I do that myself for fun, but no one EVER found a rich gold or silver mine while detecting in the city park or swinging a detector over a beach. Only those who look, have any chance of finding a lost mine.

That gold ore came from a mine, and that mine is yet to be found. Believe or disbelieve what you will. Have another cup of coffee amigo. :coffee2:

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Oroblanco,amigo,the man known as waltz had his gold already when he reached that area, and he had been in the bradshaws, but the gold could have come from any where between cal,nev,az,
but he already supposedly had his gold,np:cat:
 

PS to Not Peralta

Actions speak louder than words - do you agree?

Julia Thomas stated that Waltz had a rich mine in the Superstitions. She sold her business (her only source of income) to go hunt for the mine. Her adopted son Reiney Petrasch also said Waltz had a rich mine, and he also went searching for it, for years.

Dick Holmes said Waltz had a rich mine, and that he had tried to trail him to it. Holmes spent the rest of his life hunting the mine, and then sent his son Brownie to find it on another forty year quest, and his partner Clay Worst whom continues to this day.

What do you judge by those actions? That they are just passing along hearsay, lies, falsehoods?

More coffee?
:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee:
 

Oroblanco,amigo,the man known as waltz had his gold already when he reached that area, and he had been in the bradshaws, but the gold could have come from any where between cal,nev,az,
but he already supposedly had his gold,np:cat:

What proof do you have of this contention? The U of A collection almost certainly had samples from Waltz's former claims in the Bradshaws, and their letter stated there were no matches. Why should he have packed gold ore down from the Bradshaws to Phoenix, when he could have simply sold the ore in Prescott and carried cash which would have been lighter and far easier to spend? That makes no sense. Further, the claims Waltz had in the Bradshaws were Epithermal, and played out. A different kind of ore and a different kind of deposit.

Do you have any record of Waltz traveling to California, from 1865 to his death in 1891? I have never seen any. If he brought that ore from California, it is even less logical than hauling it from the Bradshaws to Phoenix - and then his trips into the Superstitions, his visits to Florence, do we say he was hauling the ore up into the mountains after hauling it from California or the Bradshaws?

This kind of dismissive explanations are sounding much more like a defense lawyer in court - it could have been any other way, it could have come from somewhere else - well exactly where? We already have Waltz telling his friends it is in the Superstitions and pointing to the mountains while saying it. These are people who took him in when he was 82 years old and apparently without a living relative near him. He was willing to dig up and spend his own gold to help them out. You are saying he must have been LYING to these people, the same ones that cared for him when he was sick and in his last days?

Maybe I need more coffee.
:coffee2: :coffee:
 

Oroblanco, amigo, it is all still just hearsay, no matter how one dresses it up. have some :coffee2: and chill out, the only things that are factual are, the man named
Jacob Waltz and whatever gold he had when he died ,and that is suspect. but that's my opinion, show me something that is factual evidence, and not hearsay.:dontknow:NP:cat:
 

Oroblanco, amigo, it is all still just hearsay, no matter how one dresses it up. have some :coffee2: and chill out, the only things that are factual are, the man named
Jacob Waltz and whatever gold he had when he died ,and that is suspect. but that's my opinion, show me something that is factual evidence, and not hearsay.:dontknow:NP:cat:

If I should find the mine, after I have gotten all I need, I will be happy to show it to you. I don't look for the LDM so much any more however <have other irons in the fire, so to speak> so don't hold your date book open. :tongue3: I would suggest you may find that in MOST lost mine cases, hearsay as you class it, is as good as you will ever get. Courtrooms are where you get direct examination of the suspects. I am quite 'chilled' amigo, though I am often surprised at the level of anger from our skeptics. Were I to get upset, there won't be any doubt, and we would not be having a further discussion. I put statements in BOLD to highlight and emphasize points, not out of any anger.

More coffee?
:coffee2::coffee:
 

PS on that last one - but this HEARSAY as you class it, is supported by the ACTIONS of the people involved. Actions speak louder than words.
 

Not Peralta - thank you for the interesting discussion, I have to sign off in a moment but did not want you to think I was still here ignoring you and everyone. More stuff to do on the agenda for tomorrow so I should not sit up to blab about lost treasures.

To all - you are all welcome to your own opinions and beliefs, my reason for posting this thread was to present what there is to support a real lost Dutchman's mine, to explain why some of us still go look for it. Naturally this evidence and information is not enough for some people, who want to see more "solid proof" although I don't see how this could be possible unless someone finds the mine and makes it public. For those of you convinced there never was a mine, or that it was found and all cleaned out - good for you, you won't have to waste a moment of your time hunting for it. On the other hand, even though I never found the Lost Dutchman's gold mine, I would not trade one moment of the time I got to spend in the Superstition mountains and the mountains around them for anything. It is truly some of the most beautiful desert country on the planet, and I have met some great friends along the way. I found gold there too, not enough to pay for the gas to get to Arizona but to find any gold in the Superstitions is a clue that the mine is there somewhere.

As beautiful as the Superstition mountains are, if there were no lost gold mine to hunt for there, I doubt that I would ever bother to go hiking there. I don't often go hiking just to look at the scenery, and some of the terrain is pretty rugged. Maybe I would hike there, to go see Circlestone, but otherwise probably not. Just being honest.

Have to sign off - good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

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Back again as I forgot something I intended to post earlier:

People wonder why Waltz did not file a mining claim, or just tell everyone around Phoenix he had a rich gold mine. There are several possible, even probable reasons. In the Bradshaws, most of the people around were also prospectors, and as you know prospectors tend to be like a brotherhood, even to the point of helping each other out and for mutual defense etc. They formed their own mining districts and set the rules for mining claims, even before the 1872 Mining Act. Compared to this, the Phoenix area was founded and settled by a very different set of people, and included some with very shady characters. Even one of the foremost founding fathers, Jack Swilling, was a crook and died in jail awaiting trial. Here is an example of a letter to the editor, dating to 1875:

salt-river-crooks.jpg
Waltz had SEEN people trying to trail him to his mine too. I can tell you from personal experience, it is NOT always wise to file a mining claim, regardless of how rich it is, especially in an area where NO other mining claims have ever been filed before. It attracts attention, not always good attention, and you have to tell the public exactly where your claim is located. If you had mined out all the rich ore and don't mind people sneaking in to steal while you are gone, then go ahead and file the claim, otherwise, unless you can have someone staying on the claim 24/7, it is a real risk. Based on what you can see in the local newspapers, there were plenty of bad men in the Salt river valley when Waltz was living there. Had I been in his shoes, I don't think I would have filed a claim either.

Good night, sorry about forgetting to post this earlier.
Oroblanco

:coffee2: :coffee2::coffee:
 

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