How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[Ashton Page]

I’m not trying to run anyone down. My point is that anyone with that high a GPA has (obviously) developed excellent study habits. Those excellent study habits apply to all things in life and no, you don’t need to go to college to acquire them. And my point is: that it is all toooo easy to get sidetracked with things that are not relevant to the issue at hand. Really, that statement was said to help people who were getting too involved in irrelevant issues.

Why am I here? I needed to find someone who shared in my belief that what I found in the hills was significant. I’m here because I needed a partner. Every friend (that I would trust) was simply not interested, at all, in going on a “treasure hunt” – ever. More than one thought I was completely out of my mind. At least someone believed that I wasn’t a total buffoon and finally stepped forward. Perhaps at this point, I am overstaying my welcome as I no longer need a partner.


Ashton

 

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[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

These sites are very valuable to newcomers. The collective experiences in the Superstitions, and elsewhere, can save you time, money and possibly your life. All of us have believed we have found the LDM Holy Grail. Signs that no one else has seen or talked about. We are each unique.

Chance are, that a number of people have been where you want to go. There are, I belive, few places in the Superstitions that have not felt the hand or foot of man. If you are looking at an area that looks impossible, chances are that Jacob Waltz was never there.

I think your formal education is very valuable, but it will never trump years in the mountains or boots on the ground. Until that happens, it's all theory. There will be many people at the Rendezvous who have both. If you are interested in learning what you don't know, you should make the trip.

It would be interesting to know who you partnered up with. Is it something that needs to be kept a secret?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Ashton: Welcome, you may be correct , since none of us in here have knowingly found it yet. SOO the question is, will you be the finder, or join us in the side lines ??

Side question, how does 3.85 compare to a Binet IQ rating? We have a couple in here with close to 150 Binet.

Even cactus smarter than my lovely mule.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Ashton wrote

I’m not trying to run anyone down. My point is that anyone with that high a GPA has (obviously) developed excellent study habits. Those excellent study habits apply to all things in life and no, you don’t need to go to college to acquire them. And my point is: that it is all toooo easy to get sidetracked with things that are not relevant to the issue at hand. Really, that statement was said to help people who were getting too involved in irrelevant issues.

Why am I here? I needed to find someone who shared in my belief that what I found in the hills was significant. I’m here because I needed a partner. Every friend (that I would trust) was simply not interested, at all, in going on a “treasure hunt” – ever. More than one thought I was completely out of my mind. At least someone believed that I wasn’t a total buffoon and finally stepped forward. Perhaps at this point, I am overstaying my welcome as I no longer need a partner.


Ashton

Well as far as I am concerned, you are always welcome here, this is a bunch of treasure hunters (by and large) that you are talking with, so you are with your own kind when you join us. You are not the first to have claimed to have found the LDM, as you must know, and since so many have claimed that honor (over 100 at last count) but only one ever had a specimen of gold that matched that found under Waltz's deathbed, so some of us have become 'jaded' to a degree when ever someone new comes forward with the statement of having located the LDM. Many of us would like to see more evidence, though doubtless there are plenty of folks who will take your word on it. So please don't hold it against us, if we are hesitant to believe what you say, so far. I am fairly sure that if the shoe were on the other foot, if say I were to tell you that I have found the LDM, by using a particular map, that all I need is a partner etc you would be just as hesitant to start congratulating me.

It is absolutely possible that you have indeed found the LDM; I certainly can't disprove it. The markers you mentioned however may be a clue that it may not be the LDM after all, perhaps is a false lead, or even quite another mine altogether. There are a number of old mines and many more old prospect pits and tunnels dug by earlier Dutch-hunters, and all too frequently someone locates one of these old prospect holes (which have no gold, often not even a hint of gold) that seems to "fit" with various clues, and concludes that he or she has located the LDM, then proceeds to broadcast the news, so to speak. I am NOT saying that this is the case with your site, just that it is possible. The markers, just mentioned for instance - Waltz made some efforts to conceal his mine, and it would be illogical to then put up claim markers or any kind of markers anywhere too close to the mine, which might only attract the attention of a passing prospector or claim jumper. Joe Deering on the other hand, stated that he had in fact put up several monuments, but he did so in a misleading manner, as he put it so that anyone who found it, might conclude that some "crazy prospector" had put them there. The Wagoner gold ledge also had a sort of markers put in by Wagoner himself, a set of trees that either encircle or form a square around his mine (depending on which source you use, as to circle or square) that he planted so that he could find it again if he should ever run out of money and wish to return. So the markers could lead to a mine, and make you rich, yet still not be the same mine worked by Jacob Waltz.

There are also a fair number of 'fake' markers, put in by earlier Dutch-hunters to mislead anyone that found them; this was done I suppose to help protect their own ideas of where the LDM was, and even worse, those earlier day Dutch-hunters (our 'stepfathers' and 'stepmothers' if you will) actually tore down and eliminated a fair number of real markers that used to be there. They would take note of the locations for their own use, and destroy it. Perhaps they would not have been so quick to destroy genuine markers and put up fakes if they realized there are several lost mines in the Superstitions rather than just the one, but times were different in many ways.

You also mentioned that Waltz 'doodle' map; if it is the one I think you are referring to, you probably already know that most people claim that Waltz never made any kind of map, not even for his close friends, rather he tried to tell them how to find it. The 'provenance' is also a bit of a mystery, but perhaps it was drawn by Waltz himself - who can say, today?

I didn't wish to start shooting holes in your ideas Ashton, just trying to brace you for the alternate possibilities that may turn out for your discoveries. Beth and I had darn near a certainty that we had found the real LDM, up on Four Peaks some years ago and spent a lot of money driving across the country to get to it; after a lot of hiking and seeing some really beautiful country, right smack in the very spot we had figured out, we found a very old mine shaft. Can you guess at our heart-rate, on seeing that old shaft? Well unfortunately, it was really an old gold mine shaft, not more than ten feet deep and perhaps four feet square-ish, and judging by the material left on the dump, must have produced a little gold for whomever had dug it. I half suspect this was the Lost Dutchman mine found by Milton Rose, some years before we ever got there, and the ore vein had pinched out at a shallow depth. The ore was a dark green quartz, with almost no visible gold in it, from what I could see, typical for an epithermal type of deposit and definitely NOT the Lost Dutchman gold mine of Jacob Waltz.

Sorry for sounding so negative amigo, and I really do wish you the best of luck; as you have already stated "goodbye" and reinforced with "seriously" I bid you farewell; and I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Should you change your mind and be willing to talk with such a 'naysayer' like me, I will be more than happy to talk with you, and remind you that you remain welcome here with your friends on Treasurenet.
Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

The mine was found back in the eighties, by an individual that today, is still frowned on by a large family of folks who think they are so whitesome and delightsome, that they think they are too good for their own selves much less anyone else. Most of them still have wet panties over being chased out of the area by a ghost that looks like Jesus. I look a bit like Jesus myself with my long hair and beard, but that is only an image. When I found the mine, there were no ghosts that I could tell so what's up with that? I was also a violent, long haired drug addicted alcoholic who quite school in the 12th grade out of boredom. Go figure.

Still learning, thanks.
Oroblanco

So am I bro; every time I go out into the wilderness. What I have learned and am still learning there, has led to 11 other concealed entries, all of which are still intact. I live for the hunt and love of the code. One day, I will return to one of them that deems to be safe to open and fund the operation of all the others , God and the government willing. 10 years of difficulty with my spine has keep me from any hard labor, otherwise time will tell. Finding them is one thing; dealing with all the crap that goes with running one is another task in itself. Putting together a crew that won't loose it upon just seeing markers not to mention gold riddled walls, is also a tribulation all it's own. This much I know from experience.

 

[Blindbowman]

you can say that again ,,,, ....

 

[Twisted Fork]

I used to just go fishing when I was younger. You get in the car or truck with the basic gear and you go and fish. Not with this stuff, this treasure stuff. I've never had so many unexpected flat tires or problems with all or most of the food getting screwed up some how or bangs and bruises or couples fighting over the dumbest things. Tell me their not cursed in some way. On the up side, I'm still laughing about most all of it, years of it. Somehow, even a flat tire or some kind of stumbling still led to an otherwise overlooked carving, stone or even the darn mine site main trail as often they just seemed to just pop out of the woodwork, all on their own, and it still happens to this day regardless of plans. The site I've been studying this season revealed itself after only 14 hours on the trail, spread out over three trips; like magic, or something. Boo

 

[Ellie Baba]

Oroblanco stated; In my opinion, Weiser's map is MUCH more relevant to finding the Lost Dutchman mine, or even the Perfil Mapa or Ruth's map - though without the written directions that go with Ruth's map, it is useless.

These are my thoughts addressing the Perfil Mapa:

Perfil Mapa = Profile of Skyline Map

Perfil = n. profile, outline; skyline.

Caverna san (con) casa, which is correct? Saintly, holy or with; there are three Perfil Mapas out there. One does not include; sierra mas alto en mediodia. Instead; mas alto en medio de = much higher in half of. Medio = adv. half, partially adj. middle, mean; average; half; mesial, medial n. half; middle; midst; mean; medium, average; means, way; the phrase itself makes no common sense.

This phrase does indeed make perfect sense:

Sierra mas alto en mediodia = Mountain but high in noon, the highest mountain around noon, 12:00 PM.

Mediodia = n. noontime, noon, twelve o' clock P.M., midday; south. This statement is referring to a shadow sign/symbol. Notice the three shaded vertical lines located to the (one) right of the valley, (one) center of the valley and (one) left of the valley closest to the tunnel.

2,500 hundred feet is used by the English. Spanish would have used vara(s).

E TO W TO N TO S (east to west to north to south) is written under the arrow and 15000 (feet?). What direction references north on the map? Agua (water) is mentioned may mean reverse image, but will still have a directional problem.

All Mexican/Jesuit operated mines typically had a Holy place where a statue of the Virgin Mary was placed inside a hollowed out portion of the rock near to the mining operation. Everyone would go to this Holy place or house to pray to the Virgin asking her to protect them from danger.

More Later,

Ellie B.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

I almost forgot one important note (my son was driving me nuts to go to Taco Bell). We have also defined our directional heading as south. We still have to account for the mirror image, so we change south to north. This does not mean that there is no water well or spring. All clues on treasure maps could have more than one meaning, ie; mediodia, agua, caverna san casa, hoya (basin) either a basin within the valley, a depression on or in the ground or a wash basin, so you can see yourself (reversed); understand what I am saying? You must examine every word very closely.

Mediodia = n. noontime, noon, twelve o' clock P.M., midday; south.

Found in dictionary: English > Spanish.

south [saʋƟ] [US]
noun
1.sur
2.sud
3.mediodía

Ellie B

 

[Old Dog]

South is also indicated by Lettes strung together with a numerical value of 180.
On a compass dial 180= South

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

Well, I have decided to give you all two of the most important clues to the Perfil Mapa. Everyone has been trying for years to understand where this word Escardadia came from. Well, hold onto your hats!

Guarani refers to Amerindian people, who settled in the East-Northeast area of Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil and parts of Bolivia. Some historians located these people from the south of the Amazon River to the slopes of the Andes. The languages spoken were the Tupi and Guarani which are still spoken in these regions and in Paraguay; Guarani is the second official language, Spanish being the first.

Much of the native people acquired the habits of the colonists in the Jesuit Missions, from the seventeenth century and after the expulsion of the Jesuits they were integrated into settlements. Jesuit is the primary word found here my friends, especially a certain German individual that knew another certain...

When the Franciscans arrived after the Jesuit expulsion they encountered a situation just like the one that took place in Pimeria Alta; the Native Americans could not speak any European languages due to the fact the Jesuits had learned their native tongues to include Guarani. This worked to the Jesuit's advantage as we shall see.

Escardadia was a word that originated with Guarani and later influenced the Spanish Language used by most of the people in Paraguay. The Jesuits knew that those of us to the north would not understand this word escardadia so it was safe to put it on a treasure map.

We now have a document that may quite possibly tie the Jesuits to the Perfil Mapa Folks; the Perfil Maps themselves! I believe Adolph Ruth knew about this information given to him by his son. He had been told what the words truely meant! No wonder he wrote VINI, VIDI, VICI! He had witnessed the truth concerning the maps, but was killed or died of exposure before he could tell his amazing conquest to anyone.

Escardadia is actually two words; 1.) escarda = weeding and 2.) dia = day. Weeding Day! If this does not make any sense to you at all and you can’t figure it out then you will have to ask me “what does this have to do with anything?” I will give you the answer, but first I believe that some of you will figure it out.

Later,

Ellie Baba

Copyright © 1985-2010 [Ellie Baba]. All Rights Reserved.

 

[Twisted Fork]

The three Perfil maps each slice into a few pieces, and each group of pieces reassembles into a separate new image, these three separate image assemblies then join together into one map. This new map becomes a pencil sketch of the view down on the mountain and pasture, as if one were sitting next to the head stone, that Waltz picked eyes into from above the funnel pit; buried at this time.

 

[Ellie Baba]

The three Perfil maps each slice into a few pieces, and each group of pieces reassembles into a separate new image, these three separate image assemblies then join together into one map. This new map becomes a pencil sketch of the view down on the mountain and pasture, as if one were sitting next to the head stone, that Waltz picked eyes into from above the funnel pit; buried at this time.

I would not hesitate in utilizing your abilities Twisted Fork. You have a keen eye and a well developed knowledge base. I wish we were 20 years younger physically, and knew then what we know now. I know we will meet one of these days and the coffee is on me. The stories we could tell...

As I have stated numerous times one must pay attention to anything involving three's. Twisted Fork understands this rule due to his experience and paying attention to detail. There are three maps giving us all kinds of information and we must select the information that is only pertinent for this particular location. Remember that some of the information you did not use (or did use) with this site may be important and can be used with another.

Knowledge is one of the keys you need to develop as your research expands. Find those who you can work with. I work closely with 5 people usually twice a week. We go over the material, plan our in the field days and hit it. We know what we are looking for and our horizons have expanded to the point where we think we have got it all figured out and BAM!!! They just threw us a curve ball, cool, we will figure it out, that's why we love this profession! Enjoy the game, walk with God and enjoy creation, we are just passing through, might as well bring you all along with us.

Time to hit the hay, got mining claims and filing fees to complete before the end of the month; after Sept. 01 its too late.

Ellie B

 

[Twisted Fork]

Those fees kinda creep up on ya don't they? Still learning more about variations used in marker stones. That's the greatest fascination these days. One mine may have been handed down again and again over a couple of hundred years, I mean with much more activity than we think. I'm finding this to be true, even on sites I had put on the back burner years ago. Walk into an open 300 Sq. foot section, that was searched around before, and a new headstone can still be found, one place or the other due to every new Don laying done his own art as he claimed his stake. I've noticed a distinct style with the Peraltas in that the format evolves around the graphics contained in the Tablet set, even as far away as this one was. Probably brought from the South and then placed at their most Northerly outpost and site. These guys favored the desert for one reason or another, rather than the high mountains. Was 1847 added to the stones? From Skull Valley............

This is a Peralto headstone from Utah.........
represents the man and his torch ready in hand.
usually found laying on the ground, ahead of the mine.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo,
Interesting stone; what caught my eye however was the way you spelled Peralta with an "O" - Peralto. I presume you have reason why you use that particular spelling, may I ask why? (I have an idea why, wonder if I am guessing right) Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

Coffee?

 

[Twisted Fork]

It seems more real to me for some reason. I love the old paper maps two. I think it is in reference to the A shaped hat Black Mnt., Ari. It is drawn as two circles, one inside the other like a Topo. A & O Defining the tablet rings as such. Capitol A is the main thing on the witches mind as drawn on the witch of the tablets.........his hat. Somewhat of a map or two in the stone, in that the natural features at face value have been repeated by nature on the ground in Arizona, in a much larger scale; basic outlines of dominant major shapes from above.

 

[Springfield]

..... Somewhat of a map or two in the stone, in that the natural features at face value have been repeated by nature on the ground in Arizona, in a much larger scale; basic outlines of dominant major shapes from above.

Fractals - they're everywhere.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Like which came first, the rock or the stone? Everything is mirrored.

 

[Blindbowman]

"found back in the eighties"


NO ! lol ... NO !

 

[Twisted Fork]

You'll all see, I hope.........Just might be giving it up in the hands of a sour cause, to bring it out into the open. That would suck the most. One of the big mamas and surely a certain funnel in question. There's no guess work when you can sit in a certain spot in the rocks, and can see clear as a bell that every map to do with it, only comes into perspective from that one spot; in that position, you are at the heart. Map stones from the generations sit all around you.